My last post was botched so i just straight up deleted it. Not sure what happened there. So here is my attempt at a response.
I think we should have seen a massive red flag very early on when the idea of 13-land decks were tossed around for Arena. Specifically 13-land Red Aggro. I think a 13-land Blue Mono exists as well. 1 land in your opening hand is 83.7%. Two in opening hand is 47.6% and three drops down 16.6%
Conversely, <DELETED>
Personally, I find it absurd that things have gone so far as to make 13-land Red a very nearly viable deck.
I removed the individual's name and deck because I cannot tolerate her tirades any more. Her insistence on using Magic as a political platform should never be allowed WotC.
Is anyone else out there practicing with a "randomized" list? I know a couple of people have mentioned it, but anyone else?
Okay y'all, you can still break up the basic lands with a bit of work. As a preliminary test, I added a new mountain from dominaria, 6 copies of it, Mountain (DAR) 262. This did allow me to break up the basic lands into 2 groups. The list integrity was maintained after editing the list, then exporting it again.
Essentially, you enter individual card numbers of basic lands from different sets until each basic land is a "different" land, at least in card # and set.
So we can now break up the basic lands to spread them out through the deck list again. This should prevent the evil shuffler from giving you too many, or too few lands. If you happen to have the same card from different sets, like I do for Lightning strike, you can split the difference between the sets to get rid of a bit more clumping too.
A lot of work, but it's CRAZY how much of a difference the evil shuffler makes when you don't pre-randomize the list. Since my list went back to grouping the cards together with the latest update, I keep noticing all of the card clumps and mana flooding et. It's so gross to go from playing real Magic back to the mana screwed version. I will take the time at some point to enter all 10 of my mountains and 2 forests into different card types so that my list can function somewhat more normally. It was so worth the time before the path. It will be worth the time after.
It should be noted, once you have all the different land numbers in a list you won't have to go through all the trouble anytime you want to edit the list.
At this point I have no doubt that Arena is rigged to help some players have wins.
- If people don't win, they won't play. If they don't play, there is no chance of making money with Arena. -
Here are 3 game examples that happened to me THIS week...
Game 1:
I Mulligan twice to get two colors of land or duals etc. (ok, fine, this could happen)
Next it takes me 5 draws to get a land (I started with 2 land. Ok, this could happen.)
He has a Bloodthirsty Aerielist dealing damage. It is the ONLY WAY he can win the game at this point.
I have 2 enchantments that give creatures Riot.
I cast a Snarespinner which has Reach and when Riot is supposed to activate to give my choice of +1/+1 or Haste, it skips this and goes straight to combat phase. So no Riot. Opponent then wins the game because it was critical that I have those counters to kill his Aerielist.
Game 2:
The other player's Vraska didn't require them to sacrifice a permanent to draw a card... twice in one game. Fun.
Game 3:
Playing the instant Joust suddenly doesn't recognize that my Knight has First Strike.
Honestly I'm kind of sick of this crap. I want my money back.
At this point I have no doubt that Arena is rigged to help some players have wins.
- If people don't win, they won't play. If they don't play, there is no chance of making money with Arena. -
Here are 3 game examples that happened to me THIS week...
Game 1:
I Mulligan twice to get two colors of land or duals etc. (ok, fine, this could happen)
Next it takes me 5 draws to get a land (I started with 2 land. Ok, this could happen.)
He has a Bloodthirsty Aerielist dealing damage. It is the ONLY WAY he can win the game at this point.
I have 2 enchantments that give creatures Riot.
I cast a Snarespinner which has Reach and when Riot is supposed to activate to give my choice of +1/+1 or Haste, it skips this and goes straight to combat phase. So no Riot. Opponent then wins the game because it was critical that I have those counters to kill his Aerielist.
Game 2:
The other player's Vraska didn't require them to sacrifice a permanent to draw a card... twice in one game. Fun.
Game 3:
Playing the instant Joust suddenly doesn't recognize that my Knight has First Strike.
Honestly I'm kind of sick of this crap. I want my money back.
So, your argument for the shuffler being rigged is stating 3 anecdotes that have nothing to do with the shuffler? And 1 of them (maybe 2) are just you misunderstanding the rules:
1) The Snarespinner Riot interaction sounds like a bug. Bugs happen. Report it and move on.
2) So, they drew a card without sacrificing something? Or, they didn't sac something but they also didn't draw a card? The former would be a bug. The latter is how the card works. The Sacrifice is a may but then they don't draw a card.
3) First Strike (and Double Strike and Trample) don't work in "Fights". This worked exactly as the rules said it should which is exactly as it would have played out in paper if the players are following the rules.
1) The Snarespinner Riot interaction sounds like a bug. Bugs happen. Report it and move on.
Given the general ignorance of Henrick's complaints, a blightbeetle or something similar on the battlefield that he did not consider seems more likely than an actual bug...
1) The Snarespinner Riot interaction sounds like a bug. Bugs happen. Report it and move on.
Given the general ignorance of Henrick's complaints, a blightbeetle or something similar on the battlefield that he did not consider seems more likely than an actual bug...
As someone who plays a mono-black deck that uses both Arealist and Beetle, this is an incredibly common interaction for green players. You can see their confusion as they attempt to figure out why riot isn't working or why Pelt Collector isn't incrementing. Then they'll swish around with their mouse reading cards until they get to the Beetle. Then they do whatever they can to try and kill it.
This is despite the fact that Beetle flashes with a green aurora whenever it stops counters from being added to creatures.
I have played MTG since 1995 believing it to be one of the greatest games ever designed and have never once had a bad thing to say about it, until now.
The blatant rigging and manipulating of matchmaking, card draw, starting hands, and who goes first, is so bad that I have decided to uninstall Arena and won’t ever touch it again until these issues are resolved.
It’s gone from conspiracy theory to proven fact with everyone experiencing the same issues. There are hundreds of YouTube videos highlighting the manipulation in action. My favorite is the 60 card red aggro deck with 12 lands. Funny thing is it was later revised that you could drop down to as low as 8 lands and still guarantee with 100% certainty you would start with at least 1 land in hand, but usually 2.
The developers did eventually open up about the starting hand manipulation saying they were trying to get the balance right so its more fun. WTF! just leave it random, stop destroying the game.
The other famous exploit is the deck export/import trick.
As most of you are already aware, after you create a new deck you get given favorable match-ups, go 1st 99% of the time, get perfect starting hands, and never clump. And on top of that your opponent will usually need to mulligan down to 4-5 cards just to have a playable hand.
Well after you go on a winning streak, you can almost pinpoint the exact moment the game flips and you become the punching bag for the next 20 games.(Mulligan every game, draw 8 lands in a row, never play 1st, matched against your worst possible match-up 10 times in a row, etc, etc. The point of this seems to be to encourage you to change decks and to buy more cards)
The exploit which has since been patched, allowed players to export their winning deck, exit the game, re-launch the game and import the exact same deck. The game thinks it’s a new deck so you just get favorable match-ups and another long winning streak.
Again there are heaps of YouTube videos detailing the rigging in great detail.
The part that bothers me the most about all this is they promote tournament play and prize money.
How can they ethically promote such events when they are manipulated like this. No wonder so many lifetime and pro magic players refuse to touch Arena.
If these problems didn’t exist and it was just straight MTG without manipulation, I absolutely would be happy to pour money into the game. But not now.
Oh my god, I thought I was being paranoid and a sore loser (and maybe I am). This is the first I have seen of this theory.
Over three separate runs of 100 consecutive games in paid (i.e. gems) events my coin flip win/loss ratio was 40/60, 38/62 and 40/60. I decided to track these game types after noticing that it seemed like I was playing second more often at times when I had been generally playing more intensely and buying more gems. If I had a break and didn't buy gems, it seemed like I was luckier upon my return.
I assumed I was just very unlucky but I thought I would check that there isn't something in the randomiser that weights results according to player data. I asked player support this and they replied "All players are on the same playing field using the exact same rules". This didn't directly address my query, because the same rules could mean they make you less lucky if you spend more money, and that applies to both parties so therefore it is 'the same rules'. I have only just asked the question "Is player data not used in coin toss algorithms at all?" so I won't expect a response for a day or so.
If anyone has a link to an article or video that specifically addresses the coin flip could they post it please?
I have seen issues that anecdotally seem to indicate manipulation. Getting streaks of draws on subsequent games with probabilities in the 100ths of a percentile chance. But I think most people are missing the root of the issue. Not only is it interfering with the enjoyment of playing the game, more importantly, it is manipulating the user experience to get players to spend money on in-game purchases. I think it is obvious to most players on any digital platform that offers in-game purchases that there are dopaminergic manipulations built into the algorithms to separate you from your hard-earned cash. Very credible studies have shown that players have very different reactions to losing big versus barely losing. If you consistently lose big, you will just stop playing. If you are consistently just barely losing, you are more likely to be enticed to spend some money on more decks in order to try to "get over the hump". By the same token, if you win too consistently, you will get bored and stop playing. So the purpose of the algorithm isn't to optimize your play experience, it is to optimize 1) your continuation of play and 2) your likelihood of giving them money. So a better study would be to look at how deck draws and win/loss impact in-game purchases. The good news is that MTGA already has all that data; because if their game developers are worth their salt, those are the primary KPIs they are looking at to direct continued development of the game overall.
The real kicker is when you ask the question "How many games will I win if I put together a totally random deck?"... the answer is "as many as it takes to keep the average player playing".
I have seen issues that anecdotally seem to indicate manipulation. Getting streaks of draws on subsequent games with probabilities in the 100ths of a percentile chance. But I think most people are missing the root of the issue. Not only is it interfering with the enjoyment of playing the game, more importantly, it is manipulating the user experience to get players to spend money on in-game purchases. I think it is obvious to most players on any digital platform that offers in-game purchases that there are dopaminergic manipulations built into the algorithms to separate you from your hard-earned cash. Very credible studies have shown that players have very different reactions to losing big versus barely losing. If you consistently lose big, you will just stop playing. If you are consistently just barely losing, you are more likely to be enticed to spend some money on more decks in order to try to "get over the hump". By the same token, if you win too consistently, you will get bored and stop playing. So the purpose of the algorithm isn't to optimize your play experience, it is to optimize 1) your continuation of play and 2) your likelihood of giving them money. So a better study would be to look at how deck draws and win/loss impact in-game purchases. The good news is that MTGA already has all that data; because if their game developers are worth their salt, those are the primary KPIs they are looking at to direct continued development of the game overall.
The real kicker is when you ask the question "How many games will I win if I put together a totally random deck?"... the answer is "as many as it takes to keep the average player playing".
Just sayin'
How do they make money though? Unless the argument is that then people will go buy more packs/wild cards in order to get better cards in which case the reason for losing isn't the shuffler, but playing a budget deck.
The problem is not simply just that the shuffler is rigged, that it is intentional, both of which are arguably very true, WotC has strong financial incentive to do this deliberately. It's bull***** and I think if it isn't illegal already, it should be illegal. In my opinion this rigging as it were is casino-style deck stacking at its finest.
Hooooly hell! I finally decided to find the very first MTGA forum google listed simply to vent over the blatant stupidity, and disrespect, of so much of their game when I found this thread. Then happened to glance over at the date of the original post. Seems as though people are just letting it slide now even though it's actually way worse. My ultimate hope would be enough people boycott the game, if not the entire company. But who believes anything they don't want to even despite evidence?
To call what they're doing "rigging" is far too generous. I hadn't even considered paying further attention until 6 months ago when I was defeated in a match that I was absolutely going to lose, but the damage and cards played didn't add up so I checked it. Perhaps a random error but it got me watching.
Any average and unbiased person, somewhere in the back of their mind without even realizing it, would just know something isn't just a little off. I don't feel like specifics because there's no point but it's statistically impossible. (<-please don't be "that guy" and try to correct me on that phrase. Hopefully you see that me having to actively prevent someone from doing so means there was a reason for saying it...)
Anywho...computers could never have a true RNG, but the MTGA one is actually worse than a "flip-a-coin" one. They even flat out tell you they manipulate rarities on their website. They masked it as it being beneficial for us but how exactly is it doing that?
Their "practically" 2-D game, in 4K, on max settings, and on a high end computer uses far too many resources. Not because they shouldn't make it pretty, which agreed requires more resources, but it's nowhere near as good as high-end games. I know... deal with it right? Except they have constant basic issues not being addressed. Games randomly disconnecting, ending in a draw well into a match, end in a draw before the match even starts, games have been recently ending in the middle of resolutions no matter how simple, and any other slew of problems. People are dumping money into a game with 0% payout. (<-Again... don't)
I would comfortably say anyone who plays this game... let's be generous and say over a year... and had never spent a cent on it... still barely comes out even. At least they never got swindled.
Anything over $0.01 after a year and that 365 days you thought was worth the fun it provided was worth it is has now begun to steal it back. Knowing their RNG is off... that matches are manipulated... your cards are worthless... or worst of all, and the really, real reason I even needed to vent...
You're going to end up playing against the exact same 3-6 decks that people copied from someone else and got the cards for simply so they could feel like they're superior even though they put no thought into at the very least modifying the damn thing.
You try to have fun with a game that... even with its issues... would actually still be entertaining... but in order to have those fun games you will have to suffer through 10 games that'll be completely, predictably, boring.
In my case I can at least feel a tinge of satisfaction knowing I have created decks that were entirely unique that I know damn well confused the hell out of a bunch of them.
Phew. Feels better to know that juuuust maybe both the anthropologically worthless at the company and the mindless amoeba copycats... if they ever read this... know I'm but can't do anything about it.
If wizards offered to pay me market price for each card I'd accept it, delete my account, and never touch another game they had any hand in.
I think we should have seen a massive red flag very early on when the idea of 13-land decks were tossed around for Arena. Specifically 13-land Red Aggro. I think a 13-land Blue Mono exists as well. 1 land in your opening hand is 83.7%. Two in opening hand is 47.6% and three drops down 16.6%
Conversely, <DELETED>
Personally, I find it absurd that things have gone so far as to make 13-land Red a very nearly viable deck.
I removed the individual's name and deck because I cannot tolerate her tirades any more. Her insistence on using Magic as a political platform should never be allowed WotC.
Okay y'all, you can still break up the basic lands with a bit of work. As a preliminary test, I added a new mountain from dominaria, 6 copies of it, Mountain (DAR) 262. This did allow me to break up the basic lands into 2 groups. The list integrity was maintained after editing the list, then exporting it again.
Essentially, you enter individual card numbers of basic lands from different sets until each basic land is a "different" land, at least in card # and set.
So we can now break up the basic lands to spread them out through the deck list again. This should prevent the evil shuffler from giving you too many, or too few lands. If you happen to have the same card from different sets, like I do for Lightning strike, you can split the difference between the sets to get rid of a bit more clumping too.
A lot of work, but it's CRAZY how much of a difference the evil shuffler makes when you don't pre-randomize the list. Since my list went back to grouping the cards together with the latest update, I keep noticing all of the card clumps and mana flooding et. It's so gross to go from playing real Magic back to the mana screwed version. I will take the time at some point to enter all 10 of my mountains and 2 forests into different card types so that my list can function somewhat more normally. It was so worth the time before the path. It will be worth the time after.
It should be noted, once you have all the different land numbers in a list you won't have to go through all the trouble anytime you want to edit the list.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/mtg-arena/807625-how-to-defeat-the-evil-shuffler-kind-of
- If people don't win, they won't play. If they don't play, there is no chance of making money with Arena. -
Here are 3 game examples that happened to me THIS week...
Game 1:
I Mulligan twice to get two colors of land or duals etc. (ok, fine, this could happen)
Next it takes me 5 draws to get a land (I started with 2 land. Ok, this could happen.)
He has a Bloodthirsty Aerielist dealing damage. It is the ONLY WAY he can win the game at this point.
I have 2 enchantments that give creatures Riot.
I cast a Snarespinner which has Reach and when Riot is supposed to activate to give my choice of +1/+1 or Haste, it skips this and goes straight to combat phase. So no Riot. Opponent then wins the game because it was critical that I have those counters to kill his Aerielist.
Game 2:
The other player's Vraska didn't require them to sacrifice a permanent to draw a card... twice in one game. Fun.
Game 3:
Playing the instant Joust suddenly doesn't recognize that my Knight has First Strike.
Honestly I'm kind of sick of this crap. I want my money back.
1) The Snarespinner Riot interaction sounds like a bug. Bugs happen. Report it and move on.
2) So, they drew a card without sacrificing something? Or, they didn't sac something but they also didn't draw a card? The former would be a bug. The latter is how the card works. The Sacrifice is a may but then they don't draw a card.
3) First Strike (and Double Strike and Trample) don't work in "Fights". This worked exactly as the rules said it should which is exactly as it would have played out in paper if the players are following the rules.
Given the general ignorance of Henrick's complaints, a blightbeetle or something similar on the battlefield that he did not consider seems more likely than an actual bug...
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
As someone who plays a mono-black deck that uses both Arealist and Beetle, this is an incredibly common interaction for green players. You can see their confusion as they attempt to figure out why riot isn't working or why Pelt Collector isn't incrementing. Then they'll swish around with their mouse reading cards until they get to the Beetle. Then they do whatever they can to try and kill it.
This is despite the fact that Beetle flashes with a green aurora whenever it stops counters from being added to creatures.
The blatant rigging and manipulating of matchmaking, card draw, starting hands, and who goes first, is so bad that I have decided to uninstall Arena and won’t ever touch it again until these issues are resolved.
It’s gone from conspiracy theory to proven fact with everyone experiencing the same issues. There are hundreds of YouTube videos highlighting the manipulation in action. My favorite is the 60 card red aggro deck with 12 lands. Funny thing is it was later revised that you could drop down to as low as 8 lands and still guarantee with 100% certainty you would start with at least 1 land in hand, but usually 2.
The developers did eventually open up about the starting hand manipulation saying they were trying to get the balance right so its more fun. WTF! just leave it random, stop destroying the game.
The other famous exploit is the deck export/import trick.
As most of you are already aware, after you create a new deck you get given favorable match-ups, go 1st 99% of the time, get perfect starting hands, and never clump. And on top of that your opponent will usually need to mulligan down to 4-5 cards just to have a playable hand.
Well after you go on a winning streak, you can almost pinpoint the exact moment the game flips and you become the punching bag for the next 20 games.(Mulligan every game, draw 8 lands in a row, never play 1st, matched against your worst possible match-up 10 times in a row, etc, etc. The point of this seems to be to encourage you to change decks and to buy more cards)
The exploit which has since been patched, allowed players to export their winning deck, exit the game, re-launch the game and import the exact same deck. The game thinks it’s a new deck so you just get favorable match-ups and another long winning streak.
Again there are heaps of YouTube videos detailing the rigging in great detail.
The part that bothers me the most about all this is they promote tournament play and prize money.
How can they ethically promote such events when they are manipulated like this. No wonder so many lifetime and pro magic players refuse to touch Arena.
If these problems didn’t exist and it was just straight MTG without manipulation, I absolutely would be happy to pour money into the game. But not now.
Sad.
Over three separate runs of 100 consecutive games in paid (i.e. gems) events my coin flip win/loss ratio was 40/60, 38/62 and 40/60. I decided to track these game types after noticing that it seemed like I was playing second more often at times when I had been generally playing more intensely and buying more gems. If I had a break and didn't buy gems, it seemed like I was luckier upon my return.
I assumed I was just very unlucky but I thought I would check that there isn't something in the randomiser that weights results according to player data. I asked player support this and they replied "All players are on the same playing field using the exact same rules". This didn't directly address my query, because the same rules could mean they make you less lucky if you spend more money, and that applies to both parties so therefore it is 'the same rules'. I have only just asked the question "Is player data not used in coin toss algorithms at all?" so I won't expect a response for a day or so.
If anyone has a link to an article or video that specifically addresses the coin flip could they post it please?
The real kicker is when you ask the question "How many games will I win if I put together a totally random deck?"... the answer is "as many as it takes to keep the average player playing".
Just sayin'
How do they make money though? Unless the argument is that then people will go buy more packs/wild cards in order to get better cards in which case the reason for losing isn't the shuffler, but playing a budget deck.
To call what they're doing "rigging" is far too generous. I hadn't even considered paying further attention until 6 months ago when I was defeated in a match that I was absolutely going to lose, but the damage and cards played didn't add up so I checked it. Perhaps a random error but it got me watching.
Any average and unbiased person, somewhere in the back of their mind without even realizing it, would just know something isn't just a little off. I don't feel like specifics because there's no point but it's statistically impossible. (<-please don't be "that guy" and try to correct me on that phrase. Hopefully you see that me having to actively prevent someone from doing so means there was a reason for saying it...)
Anywho...computers could never have a true RNG, but the MTGA one is actually worse than a "flip-a-coin" one. They even flat out tell you they manipulate rarities on their website. They masked it as it being beneficial for us but how exactly is it doing that?
Their "practically" 2-D game, in 4K, on max settings, and on a high end computer uses far too many resources. Not because they shouldn't make it pretty, which agreed requires more resources, but it's nowhere near as good as high-end games. I know... deal with it right? Except they have constant basic issues not being addressed. Games randomly disconnecting, ending in a draw well into a match, end in a draw before the match even starts, games have been recently ending in the middle of resolutions no matter how simple, and any other slew of problems. People are dumping money into a game with 0% payout. (<-Again... don't)
I would comfortably say anyone who plays this game... let's be generous and say over a year... and had never spent a cent on it... still barely comes out even. At least they never got swindled.
Anything over $0.01 after a year and that 365 days you thought was worth the fun it provided was worth it is has now begun to steal it back. Knowing their RNG is off... that matches are manipulated... your cards are worthless... or worst of all, and the really, real reason I even needed to vent...
You're going to end up playing against the exact same 3-6 decks that people copied from someone else and got the cards for simply so they could feel like they're superior even though they put no thought into at the very least modifying the damn thing.
You try to have fun with a game that... even with its issues... would actually still be entertaining... but in order to have those fun games you will have to suffer through 10 games that'll be completely, predictably, boring.
In my case I can at least feel a tinge of satisfaction knowing I have created decks that were entirely unique that I know damn well confused the hell out of a bunch of them.
Phew. Feels better to know that juuuust maybe both the anthropologically worthless at the company and the mindless amoeba copycats... if they ever read this... know I'm but can't do anything about it.
If wizards offered to pay me market price for each card I'd accept it, delete my account, and never touch another game they had any hand in.