Don't know if you missed my first response to you. If it would take you $100 in packs to build my deck on Arena, THAT'S STILL LESS THAN HALF THE COST OF BUILDING MY DECK IN PAPER!
Time is not money when that time is allotted for hobbies/recreation. The gold I get is through time I would have spent playing paper Magic, so actually it's just gravy on top of being able to play for free.
Well well, look at that, $250 to $280 to buy one deck in paper! Surely I must have spent hundreds of dollars to get this deck because Arena CERTAINLY isn't cheaper right?
Oh wait, I've spent $65 to DRAFT (total expenditures ever on Arena) which ended up getting me enough cards for my deck. Not only that, I have another standard deck that is even more expensive.
Let's compare to paper Magic shall we? $65 dollars will get me about 4.3 paper drafts. with those 4.3 drafts I would have opened 13 packs, but let's be generous and say it's 20 packs because I'm good at drafting and should win some prizes occasionally. Do you truly believe I would have come EVEN CLOSE to building a standard deck by doing that?
"Well don't draft, just by the singles you need in paper!" Okay, so that $65 barely buys me my land base plus one Gruull spellbreaker.
If you can't make a standard deck on Arena for cheaper then paper, you must REALLY make A METRIC TON of mistakes when spending your wildcards. I mean even if you only get half of your wildcard expenditures correct, Arena STILL ends up being cheaper then paper Magic.
So there's my direct proof that Arena is much cheaper in fact. Where's your direct proof that it's more expensive?
Well, first mistake is not accounting for metagame impacting playable cards in the competitive meta. You get one rare wild card per 5.71 packs, and one mythic wild card per 13.33 packs. Across all five sets, there will only be a certain number of rare and mythics that are playable at a given point.
Let's assume that someone is new and has very little knowledge on the metagame, and they must buy up rares and mythics that match up to form a winning deck. How likely do you think that scenario is?
I think a smart player who has played the game will minimize the losses via cockatrice or a deck building app.
Honestly, I really want to see the data on the bad pull rates and misfire purchases if that data exists.
There are people paying 100 per set to get packs and miss firing. Also, keep in mind you play draft and probably limited, meaning you are one of the lucky ones that built up skill and experience. You can turn the tide with what some people would call complete jank, and know how to play on a level above the throng of freemium one vs one players. That makes a huge difference.
I can build a deck for 60 dollars in black on paper that wins pretty consistently with lower constraints on rares thanks to the secondary market. Everything costs the same on arena.
I missed this first response you posted.
Okay, you said it right there, the COMPETITIVE meta. If you want to be competitive at a hobby and for instance play the best current deck available at any given moment, of course you need to spend money. If you want to reach the highest levels of ranked, of course you'd need to spend $. Also everything about the meta holds true for paper, except the cards are way more expensive to buy. It's easy to mispend $30 on a single card for paper mtg. Now you're out that $30 unless your lucky enough to trade for exactly what you need, and the card still hasn't lost value. To resell to the store you lose 50-30% of your investment. That doesn't count time/gas money to get to the store. That's hoping the store wants to take that card in trade.
I can see your point about just buying packs to get cards is expensive. So just draft instead. We should introduce new players to drafting/sealed as it's a better value on Arena to get the cards you need, and because it's awesome. There are oodles of articles/videos out there that teach new people who to draft. Once you teach people to spend resources on limited instead of crack packing, the returns are much greater. With limited, you make some resources back through wins to buy more limited which gets you more packs.
By the time you've played through $100 dollars worth of limited, you will have amassed a bunch of cards, plus a bunch of wildcards and have some experience of seeing these cards in action. That makes it easier to determine which kind of deck you want later, which means less misspending wildcards.
Personally, I've been looking at sealed as the best way to put cards into your collection. For 2000 gems you get 9 packs guaranteed. Compare that to the 6 packs you can get for 1200 gems of just pack cracking. Comparatively price per pack in sealed is 222.2 gems per pack, vs. 200 for just straight pack cracking. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! If you act at anytime to buy sealed, you still get 200 gems back even if you win no games! So the effective price of packs become the exact same rate of simply cracking the packs instead. While the 6 packs opened for sealed won't count towards the wildcard ticker, that is quite a fair trade off for the chance to win even more gems back. You also end up opening way more cards with 6 15 card packs, which helps you fill up the vault faster, so you end up making those wild cards back eventually. 3 of those packs do contribute to the ticker.
Now sealed is probably a safer format than drafting for complete newbs. It's going to provide about an hour of guaranteed entertainment, perhaps 2-3 hours depending on your win/loss ratio. If you're trying to build a from scratch deck in standard, let's say most people will spend at least $100. So they decide, I'll spend the $100 to get the best rate in gems on Arena instead of buying only half of a paper deck. With that $100 they can do a MINIMUM of 11.11 sealed events on MTG Arena. That rate assumes they literally win no games at all. If they win even a modest amount, 1 game for every 3 losses, the number of sealed events they can do is 12.5 for $100. 12.5 sealed events equals 112.5 packs for 20,000 gems spent. That equals 177.8 gems per pack, compared to the 200 gem per pack when you buy 90 packs for 18,000 gems.
Is this confusing for new players (even old players?) Yes. Is it easy to show them the way? Yes. Say "Just learn to play sealed. You'll get to open more packs per gem and you'll learn to play limited in the mean time."
You can't count my experience with Magic as somehow giving me an unfair advantage on Arena, because it also gives me an unfair advantage on paper. That point seems moot to me.
Don't know if you missed my first response to you. If it would take you $100 in packs to build my deck on Arena, THAT'S STILL LESS THAN HALF THE COST OF BUILDING MY DECK IN PAPER!
Time is not money when that time is allotted for hobbies/recreation. The gold I get is through time I would have spent playing paper Magic, so actually it's just gravy on top of being able to play for free.
Right, if you enjoy the journey than it's fine. Also, I agree that if your deck is above a certain cost arena would make it cheaper, but for those who build mono color decks that are sub 100 dollars and make use of a lot of rares, that price is still higher than the cost in paper. Plus, it's not apples to oranges on the price per pack. If it takes exactly 100 dollars worth of packs to get all the rares needed to buy your deck, are you accounting for a percentage of those rare wild cards being used on the wrong cards? That's the part that really makes things interesting and throws a wrench in just about any direct comparison scheme. I can sell out of a bad choice in paper. I can't do that in arena.
Also, since I had the money to experiment I threw down 100 dollars on 90 packs of Allegiance. My numbers were a bit off as it looks like you get a few more rare wild cards than before. I got 9 guaranteed rare wild cards, got an extra rare wild card once per every 9-11 packs that just spawned out of the aether, and then I hit the vault, which was unexpected. I don't think the vault normally gets hit from the 90 packs and that adds a bunch of rare wild cards.
So from 90 packs I ultimately ended up with 26 rare wild cards due to the vault. At that volume of packs I ended up hitting 6 different rare lands for dual colors and I was able to get about 1/2 the rares needed for esper heroes: A three color deck that is a pretty good example of a typical Tier 1 deck in terms of rare usage. I'm not sure of the math on the percentage chance of hitting a card you need since a lot of it probably needs set up on an excel sheet.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So you've gone from "Arena costs the same" to "Arena can be cheaper sometimes."
That is some progress. When I think of this question I'm thinking about it from a perspective of "Your average MTG player" most of the time.
Your average MTG player can't continuously build rogue/budget standard decks and expect to have a decent chance of winning Magic.
When you say "If the deck is over a certain price it becomes cheaper." Well, that price is lower then the cost of your average standard deck, so...
Also, you CAN build a deck by playing limited over and over again on Arena. You CAN'T do that in paper. Arena is MUCH cheaper to play limited, hopefully people won't try to argue that point.
Given that you can build a deck by playing limited in Arena, but not in paper, Arena is the cheaper of the formats. Just play limited, which is awesome and something I love doing anyway, until I've saved up enough resources to build a deck. Can't do that in paper.
I really wonder how much time and $ you lose reselling MTG cards. Most card shops take 50% of the price of the card. That's not at all economical, and is WAY more expensive then getting more wildcards on Arena. Do you resell on TCG player? Okay so now you're paying their fees, plus shipping, plus all the time spent packaging and taking to post office et. By the time you do all that, you could have just drafted on MTG Arena, got some new cards and earn more gold. Which would you rather spend your time doing?
I've built paper Magic decks, and have tried to resell cards before to build another. It is a losing prospect to be sure.
Don't forget all the hidden costs of paper Magic: Gas to go to store or friends house to play, $5 entry to FNM, sleeves for deck, playmat et. also tax on MTG products, which I don't pay on Arena. That's an automatic 8.25% savings anytime I purchase something on Arena vs. a card in real-life.
Oh, have y'all forgotten about how incredibly overpriced cards are when a set is first released? You think misspending a rare wildcard is bad? Try buying a single copy of Vraska, Golgari Queen when Guilds released. $26 dollars. Now Allegiance is out and you think "Man, I don't really like playing B/G, or the meta has shifted away from it. I'll sell my card back, that's what everyone says I can do." The store offers you $2.50 for the card because it is now only worth $5. Sure did save a bunch of $ by playing paper didn't ya?
If people were actually honest with themselves about the card reselling experience, I don't think they'd tout it as such a big deal. It's actually a TERRIBLE VALUE to resell your cards THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME, when it comes to standard.
Actually, misfiring on rare wild cards is very bad. Remember, you only get one awarded every 5.75ish packs. Mythics are far worse, but they changed the mythic designs so that we are not looking at last standard with the scarab god. I made a mistake in my morning post on the lands: half of the lands in this case is half of those available from allegiance. This does not account for the check lands, so you lose 8 to 11 rare wild cards from the mana base right away.
I'm not sure where you are getting cheaper from. Things are pointing to being more expensive. The human brain has trouble with percentile chances and rationalizing them. I dont know if someone did the footwork on this yet and will need to look over the reddit again.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well perhaps it all boils down to whether or not you like playing limited. I have drafted more times in the last 5 months by spending only $65 then I have in 2 years spending at least $300 I would guess as a conservative estimate. I can't believe how much my skill level has increased from this. The hard part of drafting is getting used to selecting cards and constructing your deck.
Since I've spent a mere $65 and some time playing arena to draft more times then I can imagine, I can build tier 1 decks, by spending nothing for them. That's why it's INCREDIBLY cheaper.
Opening the vault is a big factor in determining arena's value. You must put in time to open the vault. However, once you open the vault, each subsequent reopening happens much faster. This is even more true now that your extra limited cards are applied toward the vault. This was not the case before. I'm 90% to my second opening of the vault. Took less then half the time to get to my second opening. My third opening will take even less time if I keep playing.
There are tricks to maximizing arena value. However, there is no way I could ever build a tier 1 standard deck on paper for $65. Not even close. Keep in mind I have 2 good decks on arena, not just one. I also now have the majority of every dual land rare card in standard. Yes, it took me time playing Magic, that's what I like to do! If it wasn't such a chore, I'd love to see my entire MTG Arena collection's value in paper. It is well over $400, and that's not including any of the wildcards I have saved up.
Here's all of my rare lands currently collected that I "spent $65" on. Keep in mind I'm basically guaranteed to open at least 1 more, maybe 2 or 3 just based on the amount of gold I have available for drafting. I also have a couple of wildcards available should I want to spend them on lands. Vault opening coming within the next few drafts.
Nice part is, I'll have all of these cards 2+ years from now after the eternal arena format is released. While you don't make money back from selling the cards, you do keep all of the best cards you've ever opened. This has actually been crucial for me in brewing even in standard. I switch back and forth between using cards, or entire decks at times according to the meta.
So I spent $65 dollars to draft, played a bunch of Magic which i can't normally do, and received $310 worth of cards that I will keep forever. Basically double that value if you include all my other cards I'm sure.
Are you planning on playing that one deck forever? You keep saying it costed you 65 dollars, but the truth is that it didn't cost you 65 dollars: It costed you 65 dollars plus all the hours you spent grinding to get the base cards that you just showed in your own card pool, where as I can literally get the cards for the decks I want in paper, sell them via card sphere, and change over to any deck I want for the same or less. Then, when rotation happens you are starting over spending even more time and money than a person playing in paper would since you can not reclaim money and time invested in your prior standard.
I mean, you can spend all day pointing at your figure and in isolation it certainly can look cheaper, but it really isn't. Not at the levels wizards has been printing cards the last few years. Maybe if we were in Scars block times I could possibly see Arena being a bit cheaper, but at the end of the day it's a loot box style game that uses the drip feed method to encourage the purchasing of packs and stealths in the extra costs.
I know the game is expensive and I still play it so unless there is a really big point that is being made here I don't see what the use is in continuing for pages on end.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
First off, many thanks for the cardsphere tip. This website appears to make Trading MTG cards MUCH cheaper. I believe 15% was the best rate we used to be able to sell cards through TCG player that I know of. So, I can see your argument being a bit stronger after going around the website. However, that still doesn't make paper cheaper for the AVERAGE player. Also don't act like you can just sell off your deck for what you paid for it to begin with after rotation, even on a site with very minimal fees. That is fairy tale land, I know how rotation works and all cards lose 30-80% of their value.
Truth is, the time I spend on Area is time I used to play in paper. As I've literally already explained, you can't count the time I spend as a hobby as playing Magic. I just switched the time I used to spend going to the card store to playing on Arena. Think of how ridiculous that logic is. "Well, in order to play Magic, you would have to spend time playing Magic!" As though that's some kind of barrier. The point is to play Magic! It's just such backwards thinking. "Oh, but I want to play my best competitive deck now!" You say, already covered that, of course it will cost $ to build a competitive deck immediately. It will cost less if you're playing Arena and play limited. Playing Magic is the goal, not a roadblock. You can't count "spending time playing Magic" as a cost to "Playing Magic" Of course it takes time to play Magic, whether or not it's in paper or online. The difference is, online rewards you for the time spent playing Magic, where as paper does not, at least not when playing for free. You're basically seeing these free reward systems as some kind of detriment to the user, when they are actually a benefit.So there's another reason why it's cheaper.
Remember, I have multiple decks already. When I want to build a new deck, say when the next set drops, I'll do it for free again. I'll take the about $50 I would normally have spent on pre-release/drafting for the set in paper, spend it on Arena for limited, and get TWICE the amount of drafting/sealed done with it. Meanwhile, I've saved up a bunch of wildcards and resources by playing during the Allegiance season, and will open many more while drafting the new set (I'm already growing my collection of wildcards again.) By the time I've gone though about $50 worth of LIMITED play, not DECK BUILDING $, I will have opened a good number of the rares in the set, accrued even more wildcards to spend on a possible new deck.
That's literally how I built the Gruul Aggro deck I'm currently playing with. I didn't spend a dime on cracking packs. Best part is, this next set I will have even more resources already accrued and saved up, because I'm starting the season with a tier 1 deck. That's quite different from Guids where I started from basically nothing.
I mean really, when was the last time you build a standard deck by drafting? Never I'm guessing? That's because it doesn't work, or it would cost outrageous amounts of $ to work.
If you can't see that me building a tier 1 $250 deck simply by drafting for $65 and doing what I love, playing Magic, is cheaper then actually spending $250 on a deck, you're right, there's no point in going on.
My grinding deck at the moment is guild gates which can be built super budget without rare lands and still function. At least assuming plaza of harmony is uncommon. I think gruul is a hard match up for it due to all the power it can land, but after tweaks I've killed evd. Teferi decks with it easily so that is evidence in your favor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My grinding deck at the moment is guild gates which can be built super budget without rare lands and still function. At least assuming plaza of harmony is uncommon. I think gruul is a hard match up for it due to all the power it can land, but after tweaks I've killed evd. Teferi decks with it easily so that is evidence in your favor.
Nice! Sounds like you were able to build a Magic deck and play it for basically free then? Although you did say you just opened a bunch of packs earlier. Were those not needed to build your deck?
Alright Colt47! Thanks for the enthusiastic debate. You did open my eyes as to why some people would get a better value out of paper. I made a new post in the forum summarizing what I'd learned. I was also talking to my very competitive Magic playing friend on the differences between Arena and paper during this argument. He pointed out why paper is better from the very competitive stand point. (At least for now, until more announcements from Wizards better lays out their plan for their events.)
I know I argue fierce, but hopefully respectfully. I feel you did the same.
Arena had a hard start unlike other CCG because it went live with 5!!! sets, so for many the initial start was rough. I spent 150 USD, played a hell lot of sealed events and along with the gold, drafts and what not I had ALL tier 1 decks in week 2 after open beta started. For Allegiance I spent 50 USD for drafting and already have 5, or even more, decks.
SO I think going forward 50 USD per set is going to be enough, specially if you extend that value with good sealed runs and later with drafts.
I chose to spend a good chunk of money initially (the $99 gems pack) so I could build a tiered competitive deck. I have since used iterations of that deck to hit daily goals and grind the ladder, earning myself nearly 100k in gold along the way. I used 75k of that gold when RNA was released to get more cards and craft more decks. I don't intend on spending anything else moving forward, and I think that original purchase was a great help setting me on my path to "real" decks.
I chose to spend a good chunk of money initially (the $99 gems pack) so I could build a tiered competitive deck. I have since used iterations of that deck to hit daily goals and grind the ladder, earning myself nearly 100k in gold along the way. I used 75k of that gold when RNA was released to get more cards and craft more decks. I don't intend on spending anything else moving forward, and I think that original purchase was a great help setting me on my path to "real" decks.
Do you play traditional or best of one? I think best of one is a mistake, but it looks like they are really going to try aiming for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
spent prob 500-600 bucks this month lol but least i can make any deck i want in standard irl that would get me 1-2 deck lol its alot cheaper than irl and i can play with lots pro players without spending a ***** ton.
Since i can make any type standard i want I get more experience playing standard format.
I am usually a draft sealed player but this magic mythic event has turned me into a standard player.
spent prob 500-600 bucks this month lol but least i can make any deck i want in standard irl that would get me 1-2 deck lol its alot cheaper than irl and i can play with lots pro players without spending a ***** ton.
Since i can make any type standard i want I get more experience playing standard format.
I am usually a draft sealed player but this magic mythic event has turned me into a standard player.
Unless you are playing best of three it's really not worth it to buy in. I didn't spend 600 dollars like you did, but I have put down at least 200 dollars into the game and the issue is that the shuffler sucks, the rare wild card slog makes changing out of a bad decision horrible, and you end up playing people who care nothing about having fun and only want to play number games with burn or rush, along with control freaks. I mean, if that is fun for someone than all the more power to them, but no amount of money is going to make the experience better. Someone could literally have every card in the format in a playset and they will just get pidgeonholed into the same crappy position everyone else is in.
I've had more fun in Shadowverse and Force of Will than MtG and it's been this way for the past year at the very least. At this point I'm about to say MtG is a lost cause and just move on with my life.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
while i think arena is cheaper to build a deck, i think people leave out some other factors.
when u buy ur deck in paper, u also have the chance to sell the cards. for less, for more, that depends on many factors. but say i buy a deck today, play with it and than sell it, i basically was able to play for free. u cant sell ur cards on arena.
second, while u have to invest alot to get started in paper, i think there is a real payoff. with the deck i build i win tournaments, there i get prices, especially those nice showdown boosters. those are cards i can sell for real money, so i have some return on my investment. again, on arena u cant sell ur price cards.
so i think for some people arena is kind of cheaper, especially to those that dont play tournaments or have a store with bad payouts. but i wouldnt compare it directly to just the purchase of real cards, since there are so many differences between these 2 platforms.
while i think arena is cheaper to build a deck, i think people leave out some other factors.
when u buy ur deck in paper, u also have the chance to sell the cards. for less, for more, that depends on many factors. but say i buy a deck today, play with it and than sell it, i basically was able to play for free. u cant sell ur cards on arena.
second, while u have to invest alot to get started in paper, i think there is a real payoff. with the deck i build i win tournaments, there i get prices, especially those nice showdown boosters. those are cards i can sell for real money, so i have some return on my investment. again, on arena u cant sell ur price cards.
so i think for some people arena is kind of cheaper, especially to those that dont play tournaments or have a store with bad payouts. but i wouldnt compare it directly to just the purchase of real cards, since there are so many differences between these 2 platforms.
You bring up some good points, some of which have already been addressed in past comments.
To summarize: If you are a competitive and good player who has competitive paper play easily accessible (and you have the community or digital outlet to trade/sell off cards) then paper is better for you.
If you are new to the game or have less time/are a less dedicated player/less money to spend/don't have a solid lgs+good community, Arena is for you. There may be factors that cross over in choice for players between the two.
I would argue that any Magic player that sometimes is itching for a game without the time to organize playing with people should check out arena. Even experienced players can have fun putting in 1-3 hours a week, earn free cards/gold and eventually do a bo1 draft of the current set for free (when that set is available for drafting.)
For example, I don't play video games due to cost/bad internet connection/I love Magic so much more. For me, someone who spent hundreds of dollars to get into standard initially when our 1 and only lgs opened, and just wanted to have SOMEONE to play some reasonably competitive 60 card with (FNM Standard), Arena is a MUCH better choice. Games on demand whenever I have a few minutes, no more showing up to our small lgs and events not happening for lack of people, spending only $65 to craft amazing decks, Arena is great.
Time is not money when that time is allotted for hobbies/recreation. The gold I get is through time I would have spent playing paper Magic, so actually it's just gravy on top of being able to play for free.
I missed this first response you posted.
Okay, you said it right there, the COMPETITIVE meta. If you want to be competitive at a hobby and for instance play the best current deck available at any given moment, of course you need to spend money. If you want to reach the highest levels of ranked, of course you'd need to spend $. Also everything about the meta holds true for paper, except the cards are way more expensive to buy. It's easy to mispend $30 on a single card for paper mtg. Now you're out that $30 unless your lucky enough to trade for exactly what you need, and the card still hasn't lost value. To resell to the store you lose 50-30% of your investment. That doesn't count time/gas money to get to the store. That's hoping the store wants to take that card in trade.
I can see your point about just buying packs to get cards is expensive. So just draft instead. We should introduce new players to drafting/sealed as it's a better value on Arena to get the cards you need, and because it's awesome. There are oodles of articles/videos out there that teach new people who to draft. Once you teach people to spend resources on limited instead of crack packing, the returns are much greater. With limited, you make some resources back through wins to buy more limited which gets you more packs.
By the time you've played through $100 dollars worth of limited, you will have amassed a bunch of cards, plus a bunch of wildcards and have some experience of seeing these cards in action. That makes it easier to determine which kind of deck you want later, which means less misspending wildcards.
Personally, I've been looking at sealed as the best way to put cards into your collection. For 2000 gems you get 9 packs guaranteed. Compare that to the 6 packs you can get for 1200 gems of just pack cracking. Comparatively price per pack in sealed is 222.2 gems per pack, vs. 200 for just straight pack cracking. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! If you act at anytime to buy sealed, you still get 200 gems back even if you win no games! So the effective price of packs become the exact same rate of simply cracking the packs instead. While the 6 packs opened for sealed won't count towards the wildcard ticker, that is quite a fair trade off for the chance to win even more gems back. You also end up opening way more cards with 6 15 card packs, which helps you fill up the vault faster, so you end up making those wild cards back eventually. 3 of those packs do contribute to the ticker.
Now sealed is probably a safer format than drafting for complete newbs. It's going to provide about an hour of guaranteed entertainment, perhaps 2-3 hours depending on your win/loss ratio. If you're trying to build a from scratch deck in standard, let's say most people will spend at least $100. So they decide, I'll spend the $100 to get the best rate in gems on Arena instead of buying only half of a paper deck. With that $100 they can do a MINIMUM of 11.11 sealed events on MTG Arena. That rate assumes they literally win no games at all. If they win even a modest amount, 1 game for every 3 losses, the number of sealed events they can do is 12.5 for $100. 12.5 sealed events equals 112.5 packs for 20,000 gems spent. That equals 177.8 gems per pack, compared to the 200 gem per pack when you buy 90 packs for 18,000 gems.
Is this confusing for new players (even old players?) Yes. Is it easy to show them the way? Yes. Say "Just learn to play sealed. You'll get to open more packs per gem and you'll learn to play limited in the mean time."
You can't count my experience with Magic as somehow giving me an unfair advantage on Arena, because it also gives me an unfair advantage on paper. That point seems moot to me.
Right, if you enjoy the journey than it's fine. Also, I agree that if your deck is above a certain cost arena would make it cheaper, but for those who build mono color decks that are sub 100 dollars and make use of a lot of rares, that price is still higher than the cost in paper. Plus, it's not apples to oranges on the price per pack. If it takes exactly 100 dollars worth of packs to get all the rares needed to buy your deck, are you accounting for a percentage of those rare wild cards being used on the wrong cards? That's the part that really makes things interesting and throws a wrench in just about any direct comparison scheme. I can sell out of a bad choice in paper. I can't do that in arena.
Also, since I had the money to experiment I threw down 100 dollars on 90 packs of Allegiance. My numbers were a bit off as it looks like you get a few more rare wild cards than before. I got 9 guaranteed rare wild cards, got an extra rare wild card once per every 9-11 packs that just spawned out of the aether, and then I hit the vault, which was unexpected. I don't think the vault normally gets hit from the 90 packs and that adds a bunch of rare wild cards.
So from 90 packs I ultimately ended up with 26 rare wild cards due to the vault. At that volume of packs I ended up hitting 6 different rare lands for dual colors and I was able to get about 1/2 the rares needed for esper heroes: A three color deck that is a pretty good example of a typical Tier 1 deck in terms of rare usage. I'm not sure of the math on the percentage chance of hitting a card you need since a lot of it probably needs set up on an excel sheet.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That is some progress. When I think of this question I'm thinking about it from a perspective of "Your average MTG player" most of the time.
Your average MTG player can't continuously build rogue/budget standard decks and expect to have a decent chance of winning Magic.
When you say "If the deck is over a certain price it becomes cheaper." Well, that price is lower then the cost of your average standard deck, so...
Also, you CAN build a deck by playing limited over and over again on Arena. You CAN'T do that in paper. Arena is MUCH cheaper to play limited, hopefully people won't try to argue that point.
Given that you can build a deck by playing limited in Arena, but not in paper, Arena is the cheaper of the formats. Just play limited, which is awesome and something I love doing anyway, until I've saved up enough resources to build a deck. Can't do that in paper.
I really wonder how much time and $ you lose reselling MTG cards. Most card shops take 50% of the price of the card. That's not at all economical, and is WAY more expensive then getting more wildcards on Arena. Do you resell on TCG player? Okay so now you're paying their fees, plus shipping, plus all the time spent packaging and taking to post office et. By the time you do all that, you could have just drafted on MTG Arena, got some new cards and earn more gold. Which would you rather spend your time doing?
I've built paper Magic decks, and have tried to resell cards before to build another. It is a losing prospect to be sure.
Don't forget all the hidden costs of paper Magic: Gas to go to store or friends house to play, $5 entry to FNM, sleeves for deck, playmat et. also tax on MTG products, which I don't pay on Arena. That's an automatic 8.25% savings anytime I purchase something on Arena vs. a card in real-life.
Oh, have y'all forgotten about how incredibly overpriced cards are when a set is first released? You think misspending a rare wildcard is bad? Try buying a single copy of Vraska, Golgari Queen when Guilds released. $26 dollars. Now Allegiance is out and you think "Man, I don't really like playing B/G, or the meta has shifted away from it. I'll sell my card back, that's what everyone says I can do." The store offers you $2.50 for the card because it is now only worth $5. Sure did save a bunch of $ by playing paper didn't ya?
If people were actually honest with themselves about the card reselling experience, I don't think they'd tout it as such a big deal. It's actually a TERRIBLE VALUE to resell your cards THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME, when it comes to standard.
I'm not sure where you are getting cheaper from. Things are pointing to being more expensive. The human brain has trouble with percentile chances and rationalizing them. I dont know if someone did the footwork on this yet and will need to look over the reddit again.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Since I've spent a mere $65 and some time playing arena to draft more times then I can imagine, I can build tier 1 decks, by spending nothing for them. That's why it's INCREDIBLY cheaper.
Opening the vault is a big factor in determining arena's value. You must put in time to open the vault. However, once you open the vault, each subsequent reopening happens much faster. This is even more true now that your extra limited cards are applied toward the vault. This was not the case before. I'm 90% to my second opening of the vault. Took less then half the time to get to my second opening. My third opening will take even less time if I keep playing.
There are tricks to maximizing arena value. However, there is no way I could ever build a tier 1 standard deck on paper for $65. Not even close. Keep in mind I have 2 good decks on arena, not just one. I also now have the majority of every dual land rare card in standard. Yes, it took me time playing Magic, that's what I like to do! If it wasn't such a chore, I'd love to see my entire MTG Arena collection's value in paper. It is well over $400, and that's not including any of the wildcards I have saved up.
Nice part is, I'll have all of these cards 2+ years from now after the eternal arena format is released. While you don't make money back from selling the cards, you do keep all of the best cards you've ever opened. This has actually been crucial for me in brewing even in standard. I switch back and forth between using cards, or entire decks at times according to the meta.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/arena-dual-lands/?cb=1549566348
Total cost of these lands in paper? $310
So I spent $65 dollars to draft, played a bunch of Magic which i can't normally do, and received $310 worth of cards that I will keep forever. Basically double that value if you include all my other cards I'm sure.
How is paper cheaper again?
I mean, you can spend all day pointing at your figure and in isolation it certainly can look cheaper, but it really isn't. Not at the levels wizards has been printing cards the last few years. Maybe if we were in Scars block times I could possibly see Arena being a bit cheaper, but at the end of the day it's a loot box style game that uses the drip feed method to encourage the purchasing of packs and stealths in the extra costs.
I know the game is expensive and I still play it so unless there is a really big point that is being made here I don't see what the use is in continuing for pages on end.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Truth is, the time I spend on Area is time I used to play in paper. As I've literally already explained, you can't count the time I spend as a hobby as playing Magic. I just switched the time I used to spend going to the card store to playing on Arena. Think of how ridiculous that logic is. "Well, in order to play Magic, you would have to spend time playing Magic!" As though that's some kind of barrier. The point is to play Magic! It's just such backwards thinking. "Oh, but I want to play my best competitive deck now!" You say, already covered that, of course it will cost $ to build a competitive deck immediately. It will cost less if you're playing Arena and play limited. Playing Magic is the goal, not a roadblock. You can't count "spending time playing Magic" as a cost to "Playing Magic" Of course it takes time to play Magic, whether or not it's in paper or online. The difference is, online rewards you for the time spent playing Magic, where as paper does not, at least not when playing for free. You're basically seeing these free reward systems as some kind of detriment to the user, when they are actually a benefit.So there's another reason why it's cheaper.
Remember, I have multiple decks already. When I want to build a new deck, say when the next set drops, I'll do it for free again. I'll take the about $50 I would normally have spent on pre-release/drafting for the set in paper, spend it on Arena for limited, and get TWICE the amount of drafting/sealed done with it. Meanwhile, I've saved up a bunch of wildcards and resources by playing during the Allegiance season, and will open many more while drafting the new set (I'm already growing my collection of wildcards again.) By the time I've gone though about $50 worth of LIMITED play, not DECK BUILDING $, I will have opened a good number of the rares in the set, accrued even more wildcards to spend on a possible new deck.
That's literally how I built the Gruul Aggro deck I'm currently playing with. I didn't spend a dime on cracking packs. Best part is, this next set I will have even more resources already accrued and saved up, because I'm starting the season with a tier 1 deck. That's quite different from Guids where I started from basically nothing.
I mean really, when was the last time you build a standard deck by drafting? Never I'm guessing? That's because it doesn't work, or it would cost outrageous amounts of $ to work.
If you can't see that me building a tier 1 $250 deck simply by drafting for $65 and doing what I love, playing Magic, is cheaper then actually spending $250 on a deck, you're right, there's no point in going on.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Nice! Sounds like you were able to build a Magic deck and play it for basically free then? Although you did say you just opened a bunch of packs earlier. Were those not needed to build your deck?
I know I argue fierce, but hopefully respectfully. I feel you did the same.
Arena had a hard start unlike other CCG because it went live with 5!!! sets, so for many the initial start was rough. I spent 150 USD, played a hell lot of sealed events and along with the gold, drafts and what not I had ALL tier 1 decks in week 2 after open beta started. For Allegiance I spent 50 USD for drafting and already have 5, or even more, decks.
SO I think going forward 50 USD per set is going to be enough, specially if you extend that value with good sealed runs and later with drafts.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Do you play traditional or best of one? I think best of one is a mistake, but it looks like they are really going to try aiming for it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Since i can make any type standard i want I get more experience playing standard format.
I am usually a draft sealed player but this magic mythic event has turned me into a standard player.
Unless you are playing best of three it's really not worth it to buy in. I didn't spend 600 dollars like you did, but I have put down at least 200 dollars into the game and the issue is that the shuffler sucks, the rare wild card slog makes changing out of a bad decision horrible, and you end up playing people who care nothing about having fun and only want to play number games with burn or rush, along with control freaks. I mean, if that is fun for someone than all the more power to them, but no amount of money is going to make the experience better. Someone could literally have every card in the format in a playset and they will just get pidgeonholed into the same crappy position everyone else is in.
I've had more fun in Shadowverse and Force of Will than MtG and it's been this way for the past year at the very least. At this point I'm about to say MtG is a lost cause and just move on with my life.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
when u buy ur deck in paper, u also have the chance to sell the cards. for less, for more, that depends on many factors. but say i buy a deck today, play with it and than sell it, i basically was able to play for free. u cant sell ur cards on arena.
second, while u have to invest alot to get started in paper, i think there is a real payoff. with the deck i build i win tournaments, there i get prices, especially those nice showdown boosters. those are cards i can sell for real money, so i have some return on my investment. again, on arena u cant sell ur price cards.
so i think for some people arena is kind of cheaper, especially to those that dont play tournaments or have a store with bad payouts. but i wouldnt compare it directly to just the purchase of real cards, since there are so many differences between these 2 platforms.
You bring up some good points, some of which have already been addressed in past comments.
To summarize: If you are a competitive and good player who has competitive paper play easily accessible (and you have the community or digital outlet to trade/sell off cards) then paper is better for you.
If you are new to the game or have less time/are a less dedicated player/less money to spend/don't have a solid lgs+good community, Arena is for you. There may be factors that cross over in choice for players between the two.
I would argue that any Magic player that sometimes is itching for a game without the time to organize playing with people should check out arena. Even experienced players can have fun putting in 1-3 hours a week, earn free cards/gold and eventually do a bo1 draft of the current set for free (when that set is available for drafting.)
For example, I don't play video games due to cost/bad internet connection/I love Magic so much more. For me, someone who spent hundreds of dollars to get into standard initially when our 1 and only lgs opened, and just wanted to have SOMEONE to play some reasonably competitive 60 card with (FNM Standard), Arena is a MUCH better choice. Games on demand whenever I have a few minutes, no more showing up to our small lgs and events not happening for lack of people, spending only $65 to craft amazing decks, Arena is great.