I have to admit, I am a person who goes more for a dark storyline. I would even say that a dark storyline is better than a SIMPLE storyline. "Simple" storylines are too pathetic to want to read and follow, but if MTG became a "Darker" storyline, then it would be more interesting and better than what is still being put forth now. The Zendikar set, Innistrad set, and the Shadows Over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon and Hour of Devastation were some of the better storylines, but after all of them, came sets with storylines that were worse and getting worse. Like I said, they need to get darker, and far more than "Simple". I have idea's on it, yet it depends on if Wizards of the Coast would accept them...
I'm not sure you're evaluating things right. Dark and simple are not mutually exclusive.
Also, at least across this forum, the BFZ/OTG story was was almost universally panned while later stories like Ixalan were lauded, even by haters. By no means were they perfect but they were better than the stories had been.
Dark does not mean good and just because you prefer a dark story line doesn't mean that's the right thing for WotC to do since' they're not writing these stories just for you. Personally I think that stories should have periods of darkness and levity over the fullness of their run. But that's just my opinion and will leave Creative to tell the story they want to tell.
I think the stories lack a serious tone, but I think that they can often go a bit too dark.
Truth is that story drives much of the artwork, mechanics, and flavor of the set and darker sets lead to them push on bounds simply to illicit shock reactions imho. Cards with art like drill bit are pretty morbid, or even thought scour - which are products of the story being told in which those actions happen (rakdos party and a stitchers lab). I've voiced my displeasure for both arts on these forums and other places before. Putting my personal feelings aside however...
I know they struggled with a human creature type having the sacrifice effect of other humans for sometime because of risking going too dark, regardless of what happened. Because once you open that can of worms it's hard to close. This conversation popped up around original or return to INN (I can't remember). Now we have art like priest of forgotten gods. Sure she can sac rat tokens for her effect, but the picture is clearly wrapped humanoids...case and point.
My biggest issue is that it becomes increasingly difficult to share the game with a younger audience if I have to police what cards they're exposed to because of flavor/art/theme. Sets like KLD make it much easier for me when they're cracking open a pack and looking at an aetherborn, even one sucking life essence from someone in the art like gifted aetherborn aside from trying to come up with a good reason the actual art for murder. Not the original which is much less suggestive in action.
Another issue with going too "dark" is that you start printing cards depicting situations that can alienate your playerbase. If I've undergone some specific traumatic experience, why would I want to see it replicated in a fantasy game? This is a real risk and one we've talked about at my LGS.
I think the story needs to be more serious and give brevity to situations that are often handled as light hearted. You can make a situation dire without it becoming about the worst fears/despicable acts humanity is capable of.
Phyrexia in particular is quite dark.
I know everyone is different and maybe you like these particular aspects of a game. It's a balancing act and they can't please everyone. For me the game dips its toes a little too deep occasionally in dark territory. I'm sympathetic that I may be a minority (were obviously struggling to get any lorwyn throwbacks even in supplemental products). I've been very vocal about my love/hate relationship with the rakdos. I think they have a super sweet unique flavor in the art style - but they're only really depicted as crazy murderers who like watching other people get murdered. Now for the 3rd set in a row.
Clearly define what aspects of art/story/theme you enjoy most and give shout outs on twitter for them if you want to see more of it. Your post is kind of vague and it will be hard for them to incorporate any specific direction for it.
At least be honest about it instead of trying to hide it behind two paragraphs about "Darkness" because Shadows over Innistrad was not a good story line.
I get that. I meant it to be darker, mainly more intense and more gruesome in battle. They need to bring out a more powerful enemy, and then it comes to a good start of a more upper bend out of ***** like Ravinica or Kaladesh...
I really hate the trend of things being dark and gritty just for it to be edgy. Sometimes a story/characters work well for it (Batman, innistrad, Song of Ice and Fire) but not everything need to be dark and gritty but that doesn't make it automatically good and has lead to a lot of lazy writing for the shake of looking "cool".
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A large chunk of Zendikar's population was wiped out in the Gatewatch era. That's pretty dark. A large part of Innistrad's population was mutated into eldrazi horror's in the Gatewatch era. That's pretty dark. Brillaint scientists of Kaladesh were essentially forced into slavery by Tezzeret and Chandra was prepared to kill herself to kill her parents murderer in the Gatewatch era. That's pretty dark. 4 of Amonkhet's gods were murdered and a large part of it's population killed by zombified hero's past in the Gatewatch era. That's pretty dark.
Really the only block BFZ or after, hell Origins and after (since that was basically Gatewatch too.), that didn't have some pretty dark ***** happening was Ixalan and even that had dark undertones.
So if that's not enough then it really comes down to just wanting the Gatewatch to die. It's not about the tone of the story it's about your fictional bloodlust.
Oh come we all know randos in back don't count as much as major characters. Previously Magic killed leads and key supporting characters often. Now it doesn't.
I mean are Avenger movies Dark cause the aliens or robots kill some humans in the background? I don't think so.
Am I seriously the only one that thinks that when the hero's "save the day" but there is little left to save because of massive casualties that that's not actually a success and that is in fact stakes that doesn't require the death of the main characters.
Well, I brought this up due to having a darker mind. My thinking is more darker and hard to understand, but the part someone mentioned saying "bloodlust" does not have much to do with it, even though I do have a bit of a violent mindset. The reason I say "Darker" storyline is to include more battles and to be more intense. I am just wanting it to be more battle driven and more for an altered reality. When I say "altered reality", I am saying of a reality that is distorted and not like any of the other ones in MTG. I am one to say that there needs to be a enormous bend in the storyline of MTG. The bend means to "alter" the storyline of different tones, climax, and whatever else. I was just saying of putting in a heavier change...
Combat is difficult to do well in writing. The rest of what you're saying is kind of coming off as word soup. And again, this is entirely your opinion. I think the tone of the stories has been fine. If it's not your thing it's not your thing and that's fine. Go read A Song of Ice and Fire and the rest of the Game of Thrones books if you're looking for dark.
Am I seriously the only one that thinks that when the hero's "save the day" but there is little left to save because of massive casualties that that's not actually a success and that is in fact stakes that doesn't require the death of the main characters.
Well I don't know do you actually think Ravnica and Zendikar will be super different the next time we go back?
Dominaria looks fine and totally back to normal after Phyrexian Invasion, Karona and Time Spiral. I didn't see any major issues. Besides a Demon Lord who came out of nowhere and never had his backstory explained nor why everyone waited until Lili showed up to do anything about him. He is dead now though We saw Ravnica in Sanderson's Novel, I didn't see any long term damage to Innistrad, heck the main character jokes about sleeping through Shadows over Innistrad. So sure I be fine with long term damage to these planes but the record shows this long term damage gets hand waved. But no some no names dying in the background is not good enough.
Really the only block BFZ or after, hell Origins and after (since that was basically Gatewatch too.), that didn't have some pretty dark ***** happening was Ixalan and even that had dark undertones.
Ixalan was really dark, Consider for a second.
A God Like Being going from plane to plane and imposing his personal will on peoples regardless of whether they like it or not just because he feels the need to do so.
Is that Bolas or Azor? Then the plan for Ixalan to use it as a fighting ground for a Planar Scale Brothers War, on that the people of the Plane have no choice in but will feel the effects of for centuries. Remember when Urza and Misrha showed up on Argoth and wrecked the entire place? Imagine that except for a whole world.
Then when Ugin failed to show up with Bolas, Azor set up 3 Xenophobic empires by playing Hot Potato with an artifact Containing the energies of a near god like being. Azor's actions set up what will likely be a very long war between 3 sets of not very good people, with the Brazen Coalition throwing people around.
Ixalan is a colorful place, but it is not a happy place to live.
Personally, I don't think the story needs tobe "darker" per se (I frankly lose interest in stories that push it too far that direction).
What I feel like the story DOES need, is more actual consequences for events/character actions. And for the authors to take the time to make sure characters advance the plot in logical manners rather than the constant stream of "right place, right time" happenstance we've been having, where characters literally blunder/stumble into exactly the plot device/information they need to advance to the next plot point. Bolas just *happens* to find the person who overheard Azor/Ugin's conversation (despite Azor ordering everyone else out of the room) Chandra just *happens* upon a Renegade Prime bombing right after getting back to Kaladesh, who just *happens* to be her mother, and Tezzeret just *happens* to be there personally to arrest her so that Liliana just *happens* to see him and have reason to call in Jace/Gideon, and so on. There's virtually no *effort* on the part of the characters to advance the plot, the plot just chugs along dropping whatever information/motive on the characters that is/are needed to drag them along with it. For no reason. There's no reason that the characters couldn't have actively worked to reach the very same information in the same word count and thus had any sense of actual agency.
Now now, I gotta defend this one. Pia going all revolution leader makes sense given that she saw her Husband/Daughter killed. That would happen in like every fiction story line ever. Even A song of Ice and Fire pulled the "Person we said was dead has really been alive the whole time and doing important things off screen." card with Griff and Griff Jr.
A God Like Being going from plane to plane and imposing his personal will on peoples regardless of whether they like it or not just because he feels the need to do so.
Is that Bolas or Azor? Then the plan for Ixalan to use it as a fighting ground for a Planar Scale Brothers War, on that the people of the Plane have no choice in but will feel the effects of for centuries. Remember when Urza and Misrha showed up on Argoth and wrecked the entire place? Imagine that except for a whole world.
Then when Ugin failed to show up with Bolas, Azor set up 3 Xenophobic empires by playing Hot Potato with an artifact Containing the energies of a near god like being. Azor's actions set up what will likely be a very long war between 3 sets of not very good people, with the Brazen Coalition throwing people around.
Ixalan is a colorful place, but it is not a happy place to live.
Ixalan's story was hardly "dark," especially by MTG Standards. It was downright saccharine most of the time: there was more darkness and brutality in the first Lorwyn novel than in the entire Ixalan story (not including Bolas's scenes on other planes). The things you mentioned either never ended up happening, happened in the background or off-screen, or haven't happened yet at all. Sure, Ixalan might be dark if you really think about it, but so are The Little Mermaid, Kung-Fu Panda, and Bible-story coloring books.
-For starters, no named characters died-not even those who have no reason to ever show up again. One got badly hurt, but he lived.
-Giant three headed T-Rex that was supposed to wreck the temple (according to the art book)? Huatli tames it and rides it like a pony.
-The Sun "Empire" ended up as a bunch of tame and generally merciful Aztecs, watered down so as not to upset modern sensibilities. They were so ridiculously inoffensive that, ironically, it felt kind of insulting.
-In fact, the whole setting was handled with these same kid-gloves. The themes of exploration, conquest, and colonization were purely aesthetic; the story shied away from contemplating them in any meaningful way. These are heavy and risky themes, to be sure, but you could tell the writers didn't have the stomach to engage them and risk offending certain demographics. The story had a lot of promise, but it's delivery felt shallow and craven.
-The battle for Orazca as portrayed on the cards, in the art book, and in the player's guide was reduced to a bloodless tussle between a handful of relevant players, none of whom sacrificed or suffered anything beyond a few bruises.
-St. Elenda - Good All Along - saved Ixalan from the conquistadors by showing the vampires the error of their ways, and then by sending them home before anyone important got hurt.
-Even the player votes to decide which faction would conquer Orazca at the end were rigged. Wizards straight-up showed us their hand: they were never going to let the conquistadors take the city. Simply too edgy for this setting.
...Now, could Ixalan be dark next time around? Absolutely. Was it last time? Only if one's bar for what constitutes "dark" is more a trip wire than an actual bar.
It's not even necessarily about being dark but stories where there aren't stakes are boring. The Gatewatch in Amonkhet really stuck out as an example of this trope. You have the big bad guy face off against the whole team and what happens? Nothing. What will happen in War of the Spark? If it ends with no big character deaths than what was the danger to begin with? If there's no risk to the main characters it cheapens the story and that's my problem with modern mtg.
It's like any tv show that has a premise of putting the main character in danger. The suspension of disbelief can only last so long before it's hard to take it seriously as you know they aren't "really" in trouble. One of the reasons people like Game of Thrones is not that it's "dark" but that no one is safe. That's what I feel mtg is missing.
One of the reasons people like Game of Thrones is not that it's "dark" but that no one is safe
You do realize that most of the major characters at this point are completely safe right? There hasn't been an actually important death in the series since Book 3.
I think it has less to do with tone and more to do with tension. How can you be invested in a story where you know literally nothing will ever happen to the characters, and then even if it does it'll just get undone anyhow? (Elspeth)
Meanwhile Crovax is still toast 20 years later. The idea that anything would ever happen to Jace is laughable and absurd, so who cares?
I know they struggled with a human creature type having the sacrifice effect of other humans for sometime because of risking going too dark, regardless of what happened. Because once you open that can of worms it's hard to close. This conversation popped up around original or return to INN (I can't remember).
Also, at least across this forum, the BFZ/OTG story was was almost universally panned while later stories like Ixalan were lauded, even by haters. By no means were they perfect but they were better than the stories had been.
Dark does not mean good and just because you prefer a dark story line doesn't mean that's the right thing for WotC to do since' they're not writing these stories just for you. Personally I think that stories should have periods of darkness and levity over the fullness of their run. But that's just my opinion and will leave Creative to tell the story they want to tell.
Truth is that story drives much of the artwork, mechanics, and flavor of the set and darker sets lead to them push on bounds simply to illicit shock reactions imho. Cards with art like drill bit are pretty morbid, or even thought scour - which are products of the story being told in which those actions happen (rakdos party and a stitchers lab). I've voiced my displeasure for both arts on these forums and other places before. Putting my personal feelings aside however...
I know they struggled with a human creature type having the sacrifice effect of other humans for sometime because of risking going too dark, regardless of what happened. Because once you open that can of worms it's hard to close. This conversation popped up around original or return to INN (I can't remember). Now we have art like priest of forgotten gods. Sure she can sac rat tokens for her effect, but the picture is clearly wrapped humanoids...case and point.
My biggest issue is that it becomes increasingly difficult to share the game with a younger audience if I have to police what cards they're exposed to because of flavor/art/theme. Sets like KLD make it much easier for me when they're cracking open a pack and looking at an aetherborn, even one sucking life essence from someone in the art like gifted aetherborn aside from trying to come up with a good reason the actual art for murder. Not the original which is much less suggestive in action.
Another issue with going too "dark" is that you start printing cards depicting situations that can alienate your playerbase. If I've undergone some specific traumatic experience, why would I want to see it replicated in a fantasy game? This is a real risk and one we've talked about at my LGS.
I think the story needs to be more serious and give brevity to situations that are often handled as light hearted. You can make a situation dire without it becoming about the worst fears/despicable acts humanity is capable of.
Phyrexia in particular is quite dark.
I know everyone is different and maybe you like these particular aspects of a game. It's a balancing act and they can't please everyone. For me the game dips its toes a little too deep occasionally in dark territory. I'm sympathetic that I may be a minority (were obviously struggling to get any lorwyn throwbacks even in supplemental products). I've been very vocal about my love/hate relationship with the rakdos. I think they have a super sweet unique flavor in the art style - but they're only really depicted as crazy murderers who like watching other people get murdered. Now for the 3rd set in a row.
Clearly define what aspects of art/story/theme you enjoy most and give shout outs on twitter for them if you want to see more of it. Your post is kind of vague and it will be hard for them to incorporate any specific direction for it.
At least be honest about it instead of trying to hide it behind two paragraphs about "Darkness" because Shadows over Innistrad was not a good story line.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Really the only block BFZ or after, hell Origins and after (since that was basically Gatewatch too.), that didn't have some pretty dark ***** happening was Ixalan and even that had dark undertones.
So if that's not enough then it really comes down to just wanting the Gatewatch to die. It's not about the tone of the story it's about your fictional bloodlust.
I mean are Avenger movies Dark cause the aliens or robots kill some humans in the background? I don't think so.
Well I don't know do you actually think Ravnica and Zendikar will be super different the next time we go back?
Dominaria looks fine and totally back to normal after Phyrexian Invasion, Karona and Time Spiral. I didn't see any major issues. Besides a Demon Lord who came out of nowhere and never had his backstory explained nor why everyone waited until Lili showed up to do anything about him. He is dead now though We saw Ravnica in Sanderson's Novel, I didn't see any long term damage to Innistrad, heck the main character jokes about sleeping through Shadows over Innistrad. So sure I be fine with long term damage to these planes but the record shows this long term damage gets hand waved. But no some no names dying in the background is not good enough.
Ixalan was really dark, Consider for a second.
A God Like Being going from plane to plane and imposing his personal will on peoples regardless of whether they like it or not just because he feels the need to do so.
Is that Bolas or Azor? Then the plan for Ixalan to use it as a fighting ground for a Planar Scale Brothers War, on that the people of the Plane have no choice in but will feel the effects of for centuries. Remember when Urza and Misrha showed up on Argoth and wrecked the entire place? Imagine that except for a whole world.
Then when Ugin failed to show up with Bolas, Azor set up 3 Xenophobic empires by playing Hot Potato with an artifact Containing the energies of a near god like being. Azor's actions set up what will likely be a very long war between 3 sets of not very good people, with the Brazen Coalition throwing people around.
Ixalan is a colorful place, but it is not a happy place to live.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
What I feel like the story DOES need, is more actual consequences for events/character actions. And for the authors to take the time to make sure characters advance the plot in logical manners rather than the constant stream of "right place, right time" happenstance we've been having, where characters literally blunder/stumble into exactly the plot device/information they need to advance to the next plot point. Bolas just *happens* to find the person who overheard Azor/Ugin's conversation (despite Azor ordering everyone else out of the room) Chandra just *happens* upon a Renegade Prime bombing right after getting back to Kaladesh, who just *happens* to be her mother, and Tezzeret just *happens* to be there personally to arrest her so that Liliana just *happens* to see him and have reason to call in Jace/Gideon, and so on. There's virtually no *effort* on the part of the characters to advance the plot, the plot just chugs along dropping whatever information/motive on the characters that is/are needed to drag them along with it. For no reason. There's no reason that the characters couldn't have actively worked to reach the very same information in the same word count and thus had any sense of actual agency.
Now now, I gotta defend this one. Pia going all revolution leader makes sense given that she saw her Husband/Daughter killed. That would happen in like every fiction story line ever. Even A song of Ice and Fire pulled the "Person we said was dead has really been alive the whole time and doing important things off screen." card with Griff and Griff Jr.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Ixalan's story was hardly "dark," especially by MTG Standards. It was downright saccharine most of the time: there was more darkness and brutality in the first Lorwyn novel than in the entire Ixalan story (not including Bolas's scenes on other planes). The things you mentioned either never ended up happening, happened in the background or off-screen, or haven't happened yet at all. Sure, Ixalan might be dark if you really think about it, but so are The Little Mermaid, Kung-Fu Panda, and Bible-story coloring books.
-For starters, no named characters died-not even those who have no reason to ever show up again. One got badly hurt, but he lived.
-Giant three headed T-Rex that was supposed to wreck the temple (according to the art book)? Huatli tames it and rides it like a pony.
-The Sun "Empire" ended up as a bunch of tame and generally merciful Aztecs, watered down so as not to upset modern sensibilities. They were so ridiculously inoffensive that, ironically, it felt kind of insulting.
-In fact, the whole setting was handled with these same kid-gloves. The themes of exploration, conquest, and colonization were purely aesthetic; the story shied away from contemplating them in any meaningful way. These are heavy and risky themes, to be sure, but you could tell the writers didn't have the stomach to engage them and risk offending certain demographics. The story had a lot of promise, but it's delivery felt shallow and craven.
-The battle for Orazca as portrayed on the cards, in the art book, and in the player's guide was reduced to a bloodless tussle between a handful of relevant players, none of whom sacrificed or suffered anything beyond a few bruises.
-St. Elenda - Good All Along - saved Ixalan from the conquistadors by showing the vampires the error of their ways, and then by sending them home before anyone important got hurt.
-Even the player votes to decide which faction would conquer Orazca at the end were rigged. Wizards straight-up showed us their hand: they were never going to let the conquistadors take the city. Simply too edgy for this setting.
...Now, could Ixalan be dark next time around? Absolutely. Was it last time? Only if one's bar for what constitutes "dark" is more a trip wire than an actual bar.
It's like any tv show that has a premise of putting the main character in danger. The suspension of disbelief can only last so long before it's hard to take it seriously as you know they aren't "really" in trouble. One of the reasons people like Game of Thrones is not that it's "dark" but that no one is safe. That's what I feel mtg is missing.
You do realize that most of the major characters at this point are completely safe right? There hasn't been an actually important death in the series since Book 3.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Meanwhile Crovax is still toast 20 years later. The idea that anything would ever happen to Jace is laughable and absurd, so who cares?
hai
that card was Skirsdag Flayer
(Dark Ascension)
Jace was killed off in the MtG graphic novel vol 10 (2021).
-Irini Sengir