in magic there are two creatures that have been mostly on every plane and we still don't know why they are on almost every plane. i guess the same could be said for dragons but i feel that the process that makes angels and demons are different then the dragons but i may be wrong. anyways i started pondering about this topic when i saw the new angel in aether revolt. and then i read its flavor text "a living invention born of a grand design". something about that stuck out to me what do they mean by grand design? and why are angels on kaladesh when it seems that most people are either atheist or believe in the aether as some sort of god thing. but then it hit me what if angels and demons are created from pure mana of their respective color. but then why would angels be different on kaladesh? because of the abundant aether has mutated them into something different then what most angels are made as. but then i pondered. if angels are incarnations of just pure white mana why aren't there angels on theros? because angels are created from faith just like the gods on theros. there are no angels on theros because people place their faith in the gods so theres no need in something like angels to form. but then why are there demons on theros? i find this topic rather interesting what do you think?
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Angels tend to be the embodiment of white mana on a plane. That isn't always the case, and sometimes they are artificially created through an enchantment, or at least modified by it.
Demons are the same, except with black mana.
As for why not on Theros? I imagine the Nyx enchantment prevents them from forming, or uses up the mana that would go into it. As for demons? About half of them are nyxborn, the rest may just have pre-dated the gods or been co-opted by the gods.
On most planes angles and demons are the natural coalescence of their color of mana, possibly mixed with subconscious prayers of some kind.
While on Theros, Nyx messes with this quite a bit making neither occur naturally. Angels don't occur at all while demons are particularly evil souls, from the Guide
Some souls in the Underworld come to despise their afterlives, growing more and more hateful over time. The most malicious, the ones whose hate reaches the level of true evil, become demons. The transformation occurs quickly, in an incredibly painful vortex of black-mana energy. Once it is complete, the demon can, with great effort and risk, fly back over the Rivers That Ring the World and return to the realm of mortals. Demons that survive the journey use their "second lives" in a variety of ways. Some take up residence in remote places, causing animals to flee the area and plants to blacken and die. Others wander, finding opportunities to torment the living along the way.
I disagree with the notion that angels are just purely manifestations of white mana. lets look to alara for example. bant was the only sub plane with angels before the conflux. i understand that mechanically white is bants main color while with esper and naya white is a sub color but the main thing that separates bant from esper and naya is faith. bants faith is in angels. but how did they start out? angels weren't on bant since the beginning of time they were created by that faith. while in esper esperites believe in etherium so there is no incarnation of angels or the like. same with on naya. they believe in their beast gods. but i feel like mana isn't the sort of thing that just decides that one day it needs to pop out an angel out of nowhere for no reason. what do you think?
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I disagree with the notion that angels are just purely manifestations of white mana. lets look to alara for example. bant was the only sub plane with angels before the conflux. i understand that mechanically white is bants main color while with esper and naya white is a sub color but the main thing that separates bant from esper and naya is faith. bants faith is in angels. but how did they start out? angels weren't on bant since the beginning of time they were created by that faith. while in esper esperites believe in etherium so there is no incarnation of angels or the like. same with on naya. they believe in their beast gods. but i feel like mana isn't the sort of thing that just decides that one day it needs to pop out an angel out of nowhere for no reason. what do you think?
Angels were on Bant long before it was Bant, so not beginning of time but long before the sundering. While this may be a reasonable explanation for why Angels never appeared on either of the other 'white' shards, the shards are such oddities that you can't realistically use them as a basis for most theories. Most angles are simply the manifestation of 'goodness' but they can also be created(this has been confirmed by several sources in Wizards including within creative), and some worlds have their own special rules for certain events. I'm fairly certain there was a story where regular angels were killed and vengful Archangels were created in their place.
well there aren't any angels on tarkhir. i doubt angels are really a thing you can just hunt to extinction like dragons.so what if instead of angels there are kirin. you know one place that doesn't have angels but rather kirin instead? kamegawa. although the kirin on kamegawa aren't confined to only white i find the absence of angels on both planes and the common link being kirins interesting. maybe i'm just grasping at nothing but its something to think about i guess.
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So are Dragons, Sphinxes, and Hydras 'embodiments' of their respective color's mana as well or is this limited to W/B? Have they ever told us?
I don't think it would be that far of a flavor stretch, personally, but maybe.
I always felt like Elementals best fit this description, in all five colors, but whatever. They didn't check with me first.
I too find it rather silly they have to appear on so many planes. All the iconics suffer this problem, honestly. The net effect is that the game is now glutted with big stupid iconic finishers. Very few of them are playable. So, what's the point of even having *ICONICS* in the first place, if they're all *FORGETTABLE*. Feels like a total disconnect.
So are Dragons, Sphinxes, and Hydras 'embodiments' of their respective color's mana as well or is this limited to W/B? Have they ever told us?
I don't think it would be that far of a flavor stretch, personally, but maybe.
I always felt like Elementals best fit this description, in all five colors, but whatever. They didn't check with me first.
Only Angels and Demons are typically mana constructs, The other iconic are natural creatures.
Elementals are typically elements given life/consciousness, so it can't cover all mana constructs. Your thinking more of incarnations. Though they are specific concepts while angels and demons are more vague.
So are Dragons, Sphinxes, and Hydras 'embodiments' of their respective color's mana as well or is this limited to W/B? Have they ever told us?
I don't think it would be that far of a flavor stretch, personally, but maybe.
I always felt like Elementals best fit this description, in all five colors, but whatever. They didn't check with me first.
I too find it rather silly they have to appear on so many planes. All the iconics suffer this problem, honestly. The net effect is that the game is now glutted with big stupid iconic finishers. Very few of them are playable. So, what's the point of even having *ICONICS* in the first place, if they're all *FORGETTABLE*. Feels like a total disconnect.
Creative has established this since the earliest lore.
And for the reccord dragons can be mana constructs, as in Tarkir, so...
alright so assuming angels and demons are just mana constructs why are they being made? And what is the "grand design" the flavor text mentions in exquisite archangel? speaking of kaladesh it is quite odd how the angels and demons have little to do with anything lorewise on the plane other than looking bizarre.
perhaps we will learn more about their appearance on kaladesh as more lore comes out
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Demons on Theros was stupid, IMO. Neither demons nor angels should have been on the plane at all, IMO.
Why? They can mesh, and it's not like Archons are really drastically different, it just seems like being different for the sake of it. If they had gone with something really out there for a White iconic on Theros I'd likely be more accepting, but as it is it just felt like they arbitrarily excluded them while leaving all of the other iconics.
nightshade while you have a good point i feel like from a lore perspective goblins and demons are slightly different lol. i do get you're point in the meta sense that because angels and demons are iconic creatures of magic they will keep appearing. perhaps the question we should be asking is if there is a reason lore wise why the iconic races like humans, elves and etc appear on all planes. but i feel like whatever answer we would reach for humans and elves wouldn't be the same as it would be with angels and demons seeing they are made in a different way than the iconic humans. and unlike iconic humans, angels and demons aren't on all planes. i asked this question simply for fuel of discussion. i'm not expecting there to be an answer i'm just giving people room to say their ideas and theories on the matter.
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Demons on Theros was stupid, IMO. Neither demons nor angels should have been on the plane at all, IMO.
Why? They can mesh, and it's not like Archons are really drastically different, it just seems like being different for the sake of it. If they had gone with something really out there for a White iconic on Theros I'd likely be more accepting, but as it is it just felt like they arbitrarily excluded them while leaving all of the other iconics.
The word Archon is greek in origin, so that is the reason one reason. Another is top down design. While there are angelic creatures in greek mythology angels are very Christen feeling being. Also add in the greek gods and you kinda get a weird mix. And yes creative somewhere said they wanted to show off a creature type that doesn't get many cards.
On the other hand the word demon, like archon, comes from a greek word. And the definitions on them are different in greek, all cultures have evil spirits/creatures that could be seen has demons which makes them a little more flavor flexible. In Greek mythology you could consider the 3 gorgons and lamia as demons.
Also there are hydras, dragons (which the hydra is) and sphinxes all appeared in greek mythology. The fit right in.
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Having Archons in Theros was a strike of brilliance all around. The whole "the gods are evil" shtick works wonders when you add in the oppressive figures in Gnosticism.
Plus, its fitting that White mana on that plane is embodied by wrathful, cruel monsters.
Demons on Theros was stupid, IMO. Neither demons nor angels should have been on the plane at all, IMO.
Why? They can mesh, and it's not like Archons are really drastically different, it just seems like being different for the sake of it. If they had gone with something really out there for a White iconic on Theros I'd likely be more accepting, but as it is it just felt like they arbitrarily excluded them while leaving all of the other iconics.
The word Archon is greek in origin, so that is the reason one reason. Another is top down design. While there are angelic creatures in greek mythology angels are very Christen feeling being. Also add in the greek gods and you kinda get a weird mix. And yes creative somewhere said they wanted to show off a creature type that doesn't get many cards.
On the other hand the word demon, like archon, comes from a greek word. And the definitions on them are different in greek, all cultures have evil spirits/creatures that could be seen has demons which makes them a little more flavor flexible. In Greek mythology you could consider the 3 gorgons and lamia as demons.
Also there are hydras, dragons (which the hydra is) and sphinxes all appeared in greek mythology. The fit right in.
Let's see... the origin of Angel is Greek in origin too, top down design doesn't stop us from having races that don't mesh well with the overall world, Demons too are as Christian-feeling as Angels are relative to MtG (if nothing else the lack of male angels is a huge departure), in general it just feels like loose and weak handwaving to justify it.
Angels, like Demons, come from a Greek word... honestly, trying to go sentence through sentence and pointing out the slipshod justification is tiring.
Angels are no different than Demons. You can easily have Angels in Theros and have them feel unique, Greek-like, and fitting with Theros. Demons, for all that the original word is different, are not any different than Demons are on any other plane really, each plane has unique takes on recurring races. If Demons can fit in with Theros then Angels can too.
Lastly, Archons too are a concept that is tied in with a branch of Christian thinking. Granted it's more obscure and not as wide spread, but it's incredibly silly to say that Archons are somehow this vastly different kind of entity relative to Angels.
There is no major reason that exists that allows Demons in Theros yet forbids Angels, thematically speaking you could make either of them fit just as well. The ways in which Angels and Demons are portrayed, their references in pop culture, the origins of the words, all of it adds up to things that are pretty much in the same rough ballpark.
Biggest thing you missed (and to be fair I could be clearer on) is that almost every culture has a form of evil spirit/ super natural being, most of which would/could be creature typed as demons in mtg such as the Tarkir Rakshasa (which aren't based much in the real myths but) or the Oni from Kamigawa and if we see demons in Amonkhet they could be flavored to seem like Ammit. I know a few people are disappointed that the demons on Kaladesh aren't flavored as Asura as well as many people seeing angels of Kaladesh as a flavor fail. As I said the 3 gorgons and lamia could be seen as demons as in the pop culture mind set. On the other hand angel has a lot stricter definition to what the average Joe thinks.
Top down design limits what creature can be in it to a point. It has a combination of needed magics iconic and characteristic races and what the pop culture mindset has. Angels to the general audience are very tied to abrahamic mythology while Demons are not. This is why kraken where put as a type of sea monster in theros. Looking through the 3 top down design worlds, the biggest flavor pushes for an iconic or characteristic race are the Innistrad dragons and hydras and Theros zombies.
Fun fact so far no elves have been on a top down design plane so far.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Demons on Theros was stupid, IMO. Neither demons nor angels should have been on the plane at all, IMO.
Why? They can mesh, and it's not like Archons are really drastically different, it just seems like being different for the sake of it. If they had gone with something really out there for a White iconic on Theros I'd likely be more accepting, but as it is it just felt like they arbitrarily excluded them while leaving all of the other iconics.
The word Archon is greek in origin, so that is the reason one reason. Another is top down design. While there are angelic creatures in greek mythology angels are very Christen feeling being. Also add in the greek gods and you kinda get a weird mix. And yes creative somewhere said they wanted to show off a creature type that doesn't get many cards.
On the other hand the word demon, like archon, comes from a greek word. And the definitions on them are different in greek, all cultures have evil spirits/creatures that could be seen has demons which makes them a little more flavor flexible. In Greek mythology you could consider the 3 gorgons and lamia as demons.
Also there are hydras, dragons (which the hydra is) and sphinxes all appeared in greek mythology. The fit right in.
Let's see... the origin of Angel is Greek in origin too, top down design doesn't stop us from having races that don't mesh well with the overall world, Demons too are as Christian-feeling as Angels are relative to MtG (if nothing else the lack of male angels is a huge departure), in general it just feels like loose and weak handwaving to justify it.
Angels, like Demons, come from a Greek word... honestly, trying to go sentence through sentence and pointing out the slipshod justification is tiring.
Angels are no different than Demons. You can easily have Angels in Theros and have them feel unique, Greek-like, and fitting with Theros. Demons, for all that the original word is different, are not any different than Demons are on any other plane really, each plane has unique takes on recurring races. If Demons can fit in with Theros then Angels can too.
Lastly, Archons too are a concept that is tied in with a branch of Christian thinking. Granted it's more obscure and not as wide spread, but it's incredibly silly to say that Archons are somehow this vastly different kind of entity relative to Angels.
There is no major reason that exists that allows Demons in Theros yet forbids Angels, thematically speaking you could make either of them fit just as well. The ways in which Angels and Demons are portrayed, their references in pop culture, the origins of the words, all of it adds up to things that are pretty much in the same rough ballpark.
Why archons are also a sort of judeo-christian concept, they do fit better because they do embody the false/oppressive god narrative they wanted.
Angels could hypothetically work, but when mixed with deities they generally go for the benevolent emissary angle, which just isn't present in Theros.
I mean, we just had a block where Angels were very much oppressive. Granted that was in different colors, but they could have done that with Theros and it wouldn't have been a stretch. It's also not like all of the gods were especially violent/oppressive, really that was pretty much Heliod's thing as far as portrayal goes.
I do want to reiterate that I'm not saying they had to do Angels, just that there doesn't seem to be any especially solid reasoning that says Angels don't make sense yet Demons and Archons do, or Dragons on Innistrad when they aren't a Gothic Horror thing.
If you're talking about SOI remember that it was an unusual condition and there to highlight the mystery. RTR had some legitimately oppressive ones in Aurelia and whatever angels remained with the Boros instead of joining the Gateless, but they were out of focus.
If you're talking about SOI remember that it was an unusual condition and there to highlight the mystery. RTR had some legitimately oppressive ones in Aurelia and whatever angels remained with the Boros instead of joining the Gateless, but they were out of focus.
Definitely. There is quite a distinction between a legitimately oppressive angel and a corrupted/maddened/mutated angel being evil. The former is a legitimate white antagonist while the latter is yet another black/red/colorless antagonist. We get plenty of black, red, (sometimes) blue, and (more recently) colorless villains; what we really need are green and white ones, IMO. Kaladesh has done a good job with white villains but we still are really lacking in green ones.
I for one think the idea of archons being on Theros as a stroke of genius. I feel like angels are way too overused and archons fit perfectly in the white iconic creature slot. i always found archons as a weird oddity that was never really explained so i'm glad that on Theros they were able to get some light shined on them. I would love to see more examples of smaller lesser known races taking the place of the iconic creatures in the future. there are so many races that are barely explored in magic and yet we keep seeing the same creature types over and over.
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Demons are the same, except with black mana.
As for why not on Theros? I imagine the Nyx enchantment prevents them from forming, or uses up the mana that would go into it. As for demons? About half of them are nyxborn, the rest may just have pre-dated the gods or been co-opted by the gods.
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While on Theros, Nyx messes with this quite a bit making neither occur naturally. Angels don't occur at all while demons are particularly evil souls, from the Guide
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I don't think it would be that far of a flavor stretch, personally, but maybe.
I always felt like Elementals best fit this description, in all five colors, but whatever. They didn't check with me first.
I too find it rather silly they have to appear on so many planes. All the iconics suffer this problem, honestly. The net effect is that the game is now glutted with big stupid iconic finishers. Very few of them are playable. So, what's the point of even having *ICONICS* in the first place, if they're all *FORGETTABLE*. Feels like a total disconnect.
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Elementals are typically elements given life/consciousness, so it can't cover all mana constructs. Your thinking more of incarnations. Though they are specific concepts while angels and demons are more vague.
Creative has established this since the earliest lore.
And for the reccord dragons can be mana constructs, as in Tarkir, so...
Like angels, archons are also embodiments of White mana. They just represent the evil aspects of the colour.
perhaps we will learn more about their appearance on kaladesh as more lore comes out
Though the flavour text of the angel might imply that she was created by some wizard or something
Why? They can mesh, and it's not like Archons are really drastically different, it just seems like being different for the sake of it. If they had gone with something really out there for a White iconic on Theros I'd likely be more accepting, but as it is it just felt like they arbitrarily excluded them while leaving all of the other iconics.
The word Archon is greek in origin, so that is the reason one reason. Another is top down design. While there are angelic creatures in greek mythology angels are very Christen feeling being. Also add in the greek gods and you kinda get a weird mix. And yes creative somewhere said they wanted to show off a creature type that doesn't get many cards.
On the other hand the word demon, like archon, comes from a greek word. And the definitions on them are different in greek, all cultures have evil spirits/creatures that could be seen has demons which makes them a little more flavor flexible. In Greek mythology you could consider the 3 gorgons and lamia as demons.
Also there are hydras, dragons (which the hydra is) and sphinxes all appeared in greek mythology. The fit right in.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Plus, its fitting that White mana on that plane is embodied by wrathful, cruel monsters.
Let's see... the origin of Angel is Greek in origin too, top down design doesn't stop us from having races that don't mesh well with the overall world, Demons too are as Christian-feeling as Angels are relative to MtG (if nothing else the lack of male angels is a huge departure), in general it just feels like loose and weak handwaving to justify it.
Angels, like Demons, come from a Greek word... honestly, trying to go sentence through sentence and pointing out the slipshod justification is tiring.
Angels are no different than Demons. You can easily have Angels in Theros and have them feel unique, Greek-like, and fitting with Theros. Demons, for all that the original word is different, are not any different than Demons are on any other plane really, each plane has unique takes on recurring races. If Demons can fit in with Theros then Angels can too.
Lastly, Archons too are a concept that is tied in with a branch of Christian thinking. Granted it's more obscure and not as wide spread, but it's incredibly silly to say that Archons are somehow this vastly different kind of entity relative to Angels.
There is no major reason that exists that allows Demons in Theros yet forbids Angels, thematically speaking you could make either of them fit just as well. The ways in which Angels and Demons are portrayed, their references in pop culture, the origins of the words, all of it adds up to things that are pretty much in the same rough ballpark.
Got me the word origin.
Biggest thing you missed (and to be fair I could be clearer on) is that almost every culture has a form of evil spirit/ super natural being, most of which would/could be creature typed as demons in mtg such as the Tarkir Rakshasa (which aren't based much in the real myths but) or the Oni from Kamigawa and if we see demons in Amonkhet they could be flavored to seem like Ammit. I know a few people are disappointed that the demons on Kaladesh aren't flavored as Asura as well as many people seeing angels of Kaladesh as a flavor fail. As I said the 3 gorgons and lamia could be seen as demons as in the pop culture mind set. On the other hand angel has a lot stricter definition to what the average Joe thinks.
Top down design limits what creature can be in it to a point. It has a combination of needed magics iconic and characteristic races and what the pop culture mindset has. Angels to the general audience are very tied to abrahamic mythology while Demons are not. This is why kraken where put as a type of sea monster in theros. Looking through the 3 top down design worlds, the biggest flavor pushes for an iconic or characteristic race are the Innistrad dragons and hydras and Theros zombies.
Fun fact so far no elves have been on a top down design plane so far.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Why archons are also a sort of judeo-christian concept, they do fit better because they do embody the false/oppressive god narrative they wanted.
Angels could hypothetically work, but when mixed with deities they generally go for the benevolent emissary angle, which just isn't present in Theros.
I do want to reiterate that I'm not saying they had to do Angels, just that there doesn't seem to be any especially solid reasoning that says Angels don't make sense yet Demons and Archons do, or Dragons on Innistrad when they aren't a Gothic Horror thing.
Definitely. There is quite a distinction between a legitimately oppressive angel and a corrupted/maddened/mutated angel being evil. The former is a legitimate white antagonist while the latter is yet another black/red/colorless antagonist. We get plenty of black, red, (sometimes) blue, and (more recently) colorless villains; what we really need are green and white ones, IMO. Kaladesh has done a good job with white villains but we still are really lacking in green ones.