Alright, I suppose I should actually finally chime in. Mostly to debunk some of these thoughts. A common misconception is confusing color combination with the guilds. Even MaRo has said that the guilds aren't the definitive combination of those colors.
Nissa: This one is tough. I think the question wouldn't be which guild she joined, but which group of elves. The Vigean are right out, but both the Devkarin and Silhana have principles that would appeal to her. Sarkhan: When Sarkhan first encountered Bolas, he was in awe, at both the power the Elder Dragon possessed, but also how a dragon could be so utterly deviant from what he worshipped. The same would apply to Niv here. There's no primal fury in their hearts, both apex predators, but they aren't what he could ever have predicted. So... a complicated individual. Sorin: Sorin despises excess. That throws both Rakdos and Orzhov out of the running for Sorin. He isn't the type to kneel to any other power either. If any guild could meet with his approval, he'd probably place himself at the top and demand anyone to say otherwise. And then melt them from the inside out.
Yay for Bari's post
True, as you mentioned, a two-color planeswalker doesn't automatically mean that they will fit the guild with those colors (such as my suggesting Nissa in Orzhov, however crazy that is), and several planeswalkers most certainly don't like being in any of the 10 guilds.
That said, for the ones I specifically quoted above, though, if you MUST shoehorn them in, which guild do you think they'll fit?
True, as you mentioned, a two-color planeswalker doesn't automatically mean that they will fit the guild with those colors (such as my suggesting Nissa in Orzhov, however crazy that is), and several planeswalkers most certainly don't like being in any of the 10 guilds.
That said, for the ones I specifically quoted above, though, if you MUST shoehorn them in, which guild do you think they'll fit?
Nissa is entirely dependent on the elvish breeds to determine hers. The mana she's used in the past have everything to do with the influence of the Gilt-Leaf elves.
In the end, I think the dark scriptures of the Devkarin would invariably draw her further into the Golgari than the peace-preaching of the Silhana of Selesnya or the raw fury of the Gruul Silhana. Yes, they both revere nature, but one of the key characteristics of Nissa is the racial vanity.... and of those, only the Devkarin place themselves above others.
Sarkhan would look to the Gruul first, for the bestial dragons of Utvara. These are what he understands, these are the expectations he would match. Once he learned of Niv-Mizzet, he would likely wish to worship the dragon, but honestly, something you have to remember is the Izzet wouldn't have him. At best, he could hope to serve as a test subject, and he's not one to allow his dignity to be ravaged quite THAT badly unless it comes directly from the dragon himself.
Sorin is a hedonist. He's going to do whatever he feels like. The guilds most likely to allow this are also the most decadent, and he loathes that. Your closest bet? Probably Dimir, because he can be left to himself... and then he'd melt Lazav from the inside out and tell the rest of the guild to fetch him whatever he felt like at the time.
The Dimir would LOVE to have Jace and would probably invite or try to blackmail him into joining since he basically did what Dimir does to survive when he lived on Ravnica in the Agents of Artifice book (blackmailing officials with their secrets to make them support his lifestyle) but now he sees the Dimir as too similar to Tezzerett's infinite consortium in a different guise. He's been leaning more toward white magic in a couple of snippets so I'm going to say Azorious since he doesn't trust the Izzet, he really doesn't trust Dimir (rightly so) and he doesn't fit Simic much at all.
I'd say that Tamiyo, the other one I'm most interested in talking about would lean toward Izzet or Simic. Why? She's a scientist and a scholar, not a lawyer or a spy so Azorious or Dimir are obviously out. Of all of them she's probably most likely to join a guild if for no other reason than the access to new forms of knowledge.
Kiora and Zeganna would have tea together but if we've got *** that she's not Simic but an aquatic Gruul type I can see the gruul liking her like a foreign exchange student. Kind of "Lol. Silly merfolk. You're not Gruul." *Kiora summons giant leviathan from the oceans under Ravnica and tears up half the streets in the area*. "Nevermind. THAT was pretty Gruul."
My turn. Let's focus for a minute on the oldwalkers.
URZA is a scholar and inventor first and foremost, so I think he would be most at home in the Izzet. FREYALISE is most likely Gruul due to her fierce devotion to preserving and protecting the natural order of things. TEFERI, despite his noble heart, is a trickster at his core. I can easily see him fooling around with the Dimir. JAYA She's a hard one to place. I'm thinking her free spirit would be best served with Rakdos, and she actually does like to blow stuff up. It's tough because she doesn't revel in suffering as much as your typical Rakdos would. LESHARC is a master manipulator. I think he'd fit most closely with the Dimir. TEVESH SZAT Rakdos. No Question. JESKA is more Boros than Gruul. True, she is a natural barbarian, but her militaristic way of thinking (as shown in the Time Spiral novels) shows a clear Boros lean. COMMODORE GUFF For some reason, I see him as Simic. Can't explain why, though. LORD WINDGRACE WIndgrace is Gruul. he has his natural order and his main focus is on maintaining it. Plus, the whole "hatred of technology" thing. TAYSIR hard to place our five-colored Planeswalker, but my first guess would be Azorious. BO LEVAR his devotion to community and protecting the weak leads me to think he'd see things the Selesnyan way. SERRA she's about as monowhite as you can get, but for the sake of this topic, I think she'd fit best with Selesnya.
...and while we're at it... SLOBAD would definitely be Izzet. A Goblin tinkerer is so RU. GLISSA pre-compleation would most likely be Gruul, because of her uncanny knack for destroying atrifacts
You know what? Regarding Jace, it seems that all of us who thinks he should go to Dimir has just gotten a very affirmative support from the Mothership:
For Urza, it really depends on which phase of Urza you're looking at. Back when he was making artifacts and weapons as a normal man in Kroog, he was pretty Izzet, but he later lost that and became much more Dimir, Azorius, and Boros in goals and methodology.
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The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
Ajani would probably be with the Selesnyans, even though others have portrayed him as a Red/White walker. Jace I can see joining the Dimir, but I think that most of the Blue walkers, Tamiyo included, could do well in the Dimir. Liliana would be Rakdos, no question about it. She's too callous and unfeeling for the Golgari and would find the Orzhov too restrictive. While she might be a good fit for the Dimir, I think she would chafe at the idea that she would have to report her findings to someone further up the ladder than she is. Chandra probably Izzet, although I think she would find them to care too much about knowledge and not enough about having a good time. She's too nice for the Rakdos, not wild enough for the Gruul, and doesn't care enough for her fellow man to be in the Boros. Garruk would be Gruul, without a doubt. Koth is hard to place. He's not like other Red walkers - he's really stoic and heroic. Either Gruul or Boros. Probably Boros. Sorin would be Orzhov. Even though he doesn't like excess, the ability to manipulate social forces in a Black sort of way would prove too strong a lure to ignore. Nissa I haven't had much experience with, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say Selesnya. Karn would probably shun the guilds, although I can see him being interested in the more science-y guilds, the Izzet and the Simic. Tamiyo, well, see my post about Jace above. Although, come to think of it, she might like being in the Simic. She has that "I'm a moon rabbit librarian/research assistant" feel about her, doesn't she? Tezzeret would be Dimir, and probably have all kinds of deals with the Izzet for nifty rogue tech. Tibalt would be Rakdos - another no-brainer, although I imagine he would probably do things that would make the Rakdos go "Woah, buddy, going a little too far, don't you think?" Elspeth would probably be Boros, although I could just as easily see her being an Azorius. She's militant about justice, that's for sure.
Venser is dead, so there's no point in discussing where he'd end up, and Ral Zarek, Domri Rade, and Vraska have all been associated with guilds already.
Bolas would never lower himself to the level of joining a guild. He'd just reduce the entire plane into cinders and swamp, and all those that didn't become his cultists and followers would get turned into zombies. Niv-Miz would take one look at him and go "Later, peeps." and just fly off to his secret condo or whatever.
I am doing the planeswalkers in the order they originally appeared, each individual planeswalker will be listed once:
Ajani Goldmane: Ajani is all about support, both spiritually and physically, and his cards reflect this (except a small stint as vengeant), he is basically Selesnya, true and through.
Chandra Nalaar: Chandra is a generally good person who values freedom over everything else, but she is still loyal to those she consider her friends. She would chafe under most guilds, but one would give her the freedom she needs and desires, the Gruul clans.
Garruk Wildspeaker: A loner that dislikes civilization? Yeah, he is so Gruul it is not even funny.
Jace Beleren: Jace Beleren is a mind mage capable of erasing memories and even creating them. He is mostly using these abilities for good causes, but there is only one guild in which he and his abilities would fit: The Dimir. Do note that the Dimir can do good things as well as bad, and Jace would very likely try to steer them towards the "light".
Liliana Vess: Liliana has only one concern, and that is Liliana. She would never stoop to rely on a guild for long enough to become a member, but she would gladly use them all if it benefited her for a while, before dropping them as a sack of hot potatoes once she got bored.
Elspeth Tirel: Elspeth Tirel longs for a place to belong, this coupled with her strong sense of responsibility (when not reliving the Trauma she received at the hands of Phyrexians as a child), honor, and justice, she'd make a fine member of the Boros Legion.
Sarkhan Vol: Before his trauma at the hands of Nicol Bolas, Sarkhan was a wild and rough Shaman who would be a perfect fit in the Gruul Clans, and although he has become a bit unhinged after getting mentally manhandled by Bolas, and one would think this would make him a perfect fit for the Rakdos, I still think he belongs in the Gruul Clans.
Tezzeret the Seeker: There is no true Artificers guild on Ravnica, but the closest that Tezzeret would be able to find is the Izzet League, where his skill and intelligence would quickly have him rise through the ranks. Eventually he would try and challenge Niv-Mizzet, but he would ultimately fail.
Nicol Bolas: Nicol Bolas does not join guilds, he uses them as unwitting pawns in his extended plans to become immortal again.
Nissa Revane: Nissa dislikes Ravnica's lack of nature. So one would think she would align herself with the nature loving and wild Gruul or the Biomancers of the Simic. But the truth is, she would find the Gruul to brutish for her tastes (and the apparent lack of elves in the guild is a big minus), and she is not nearly smart enough for the Simic (nor would she willingly submit to the merfolk). How about the two primarly elf guilds then? Selesnya and Golgari? The Golgari would probably be to dirty for her, and they align themselves with undead creatures, and Selesnya subsumes individuality to much for her tastes, and again, she'd have to submit to a non-elf. Realistically, she'd spend some time with the Clanless elves before moving on to "greener pastures".
Sorin Markov: Sorin Markov is a vampire who is slightly decadent (unsurprising considering his age), loyal, and willing to do what needs to be done, how underhanded it may be. He would without a doubt be a perfect fit for the Church of Orzhov, where he would quickly rise though the ranks before eventually displacing the Obzedat as guild leader. He'd eventually get bored with the position and step down, but continue to check in on the guild from time to time and help out.
Gideon Jura: Gideon is all about justice, doing what is right, and protecting the innocent. These are all perfect traits for a member of the Boros Legion. However, should the guild leader ever turn against what is right and just, he will have no qualms about dethroning them.
Koth of the Hammer: Koth is busy dealing with, and protecting his people from, New Phyrexia, but should he manage to save his people and get them off Mirrodin, he might end up on Ravnica and join a guild. Koth is a powerful Geomancer, a skilled smith, and, although hot tempered, honorable and just. As such, he would be a good fit for the Boros Legion.
Venser the Sojurner: Is dead. But if in some alternate reality he was alive, his skill with teleportation magic, high intelligence, and skill with artificing and pursuit of knowledge (relating to artificing), would make him an ideal member of the Izzet League.
Karn, Silver Golem: Karn is old, Karn is powerful, and Karn has more important things to worry about than the guilds. Should he against all odds show up on Ravnica, he'd do his best to manipulate the guilds into a more coherent and balanced whole where the guilds work together to improved Ravnica rather than squabble over what Karn would consider to be ultimately small and unimportant issues.
Tamyio, the Moon Sage: Now, I don't know to much about Tamiyo, but what I do know is that she is more or less obsessed with two things: knowledge and moons. Now, I don't know much about the moon(s) of Ravnica, but should she ever visit the Plane, there are only two possible guilds for her to join that are as obsessed with knowledge that she is: The Izzet and the Simic. Of the two, I think that the Simic would be the logic choice for her to join, particularly now that they are under new management, and have gotten a little more sane. I doubt she would enjoy the chaos of the Izzet.
Tibalt: Tibalt is a psychopathic freak of nature with a sadistic streak that would most demons blush. If he ever ended up on Ravnica, it would not take long before he was a member of the Rakdos Cult. And I am fairly certain that he would love it there.
Vraska: Despite her secrecy, and extensive use of assassins, Vraska is still a member of the Golgari Hive. And she still reveres the Golgari's beliefs. Also, she is not really concerned with acquiring knowledge, just vengeance against those who have wronged her and her kind.
Domri Rade: Domri is Gruul, he has always wanted to be Gruul, and that is all he loves to be.
Ral Zarek: Ral is the epitome of what the Izzet is about. Heck, his thought processes sometimes generate lightning storms if the flavor text of Blast of Genius is to be believed.
Bonus Planeswalker!:
Kiora Atua: Although she is aligned with Blue and Green mana. Kiora is not Simic, nor is it likely she will ever be. Kiora's mind is utterly alien and she concerns herself primarily with the real monsters of the deep, Krakens, Leviathans, and the like. She may be just a little bit unhinged as well. If she should against all odds find herself on Ravnica, she would note the lack of oceans before attempting to create one by summoning Leviathans and Krakens. Of all the guilds, the only one with which her goals superficially align would be the Gruul, who want to see more wilderness in Ravnica. However, she would never align herself with a guild.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Chandra Nalaar: Chandra is a generally good person who values freedom over everything else, but she is still loyal to those she consider her friends. She would chafe under most guilds, but one would give her the freedom she needs and desires, the Gruul clans.
The biggest problem here is that Chandra doesn't like living rough any more than she has to.
Tezzeret the Seeker: There is no true Artificers guild on Ravnica, but the closest that Tezzeret would be able to find is the Izzet League, where his skill and intelligence would quickly have him rise through the ranks. Eventually he would try and challenge Niv-Mizzet, but he would ultimately fail.
You're... actually really really wrong about this one I think. Considering that he ruled the Consortium, an organization just one step removed from the Dimir...
Karn, Silver Golem: Karn is old, Karn is powerful, and Karn has more important things to worry about than the guilds. Should he against all odds show up on Ravnica, he'd do his best to manipulate the guilds into a more coherent and balanced whole where the guilds work together to improved Ravnica rather than squabble over what Karn would consider to be ultimately small and unimportant issues.
Karn isn't the type to manipulate. Never has been.
The biggest problem here is that Chandra doesn't like living rough any more than she has to.
That is true, however, they are the only guild whose philosophy she agrees with. She would chafe under the rest. But you are quite right, and as such I doubt she'd join any guild.
You're... actually really really wrong about this one I think. Considering that he ruled the Consortium, an organization just one step removed from the Dimir...
That is also a very good point, however, he did lose it to Jace, and Tezzeret *is* inclined towards artifice, as such I placed him the only place that makes sense for an artificer such as himself. He would of course, bring his treacherous nature with him, and all of his subterfuge. He would try and manipulate the guild towards his own ends and eventually try to lay claim to the position of guild leader to cement his power. But he would ultimately fail spectacularly.
Karn isn't the type to manipulate. Never has been.
Not directly, no. But he is a very old, and very wise planeswalker, having learned from his past mistakes. He would likely give manipulate events by giving advice rather than by other means. He is a child of Urza after all, and he does have shades of his creator in him (why else create Mirrodin and the probes?). Sometimes words, even if true and given with good intent, can manipulate the people around him. Also, I think that after his experiences on the corrupted Mirrodin he will take a more active role in shaping the society of various planes to prevent similar corruption.
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That is true, however, they are the only guild whose philosophy she agrees with. She would chafe under the rest. But you are quite right, and as such I doubt she'd join any guild.
I'm not really disagreeing with your assessment, because I made one much similar to it, but I just drew the line that she wouldn't join the Gruul.
That is also a very good point, however, he did lose it to Jace, and Tezzeret *is* inclined towards artifice, as such I placed him the only place that makes sense for an artificer such as himself. He would of course, bring his treacherous nature with him, and all of his subterfuge. He would try and manipulate the guild towards his own ends and eventually try to lay claim to the position of guild leader to cement his power. But he would ultimately fail spectacularly.
The biggest problem that you're encountering with this is that you assume Tezzeret's ends are artifice. They aren't. His ends are power, artifice is just the tool. That's why he'd be so much more at home in the Dimir, because, largely, it doesn't matter what tool you use in the Dimir.
Not directly, no. But he is a very old, and very wise planeswalker, having learned from his past mistakes. He would likely give manipulate events by giving advice rather than by other means. He is a child of Urza after all, and he does have shades of his creator in him (why else create Mirrodin and the probes?). Sometimes words, even if true and given with good intent, can manipulate the people around him. Also, I think that after his experiences on the corrupted Mirrodin he will take a more active role in shaping the society of various planes to prevent similar corruption.
He's probably not half as old as you seem to think he is. Most of that time wasn't as a walker either so...
His wisdom is also a bit suspect if you look directly at what he's done in the past.
And no, Karn still would not manipulate events. Precisely BECAUSE he's a product of Urza. He's seen what Urza was capable of, and really does take great pains to avoid being who his creator was.
The biggest problem that you're encountering with this is that you assume Tezzeret's ends are artifice. They aren't. His ends are power, artifice is just the tool. That's why he'd be so much more at home in the Dimir, because, largely, it doesn't matter what tool you use in the Dimir.
Also a fair point, however, Although I feel that the Izzet would give him the best opportunity for both fast advancement and thus the accompanying power, as well as carter to his innate talent in artifice, I almost did put him in Dimir due to his personality.
He's probably not half as old as you seem to think he is. Most of that time wasn't as a walker either so...
His wisdom is also a bit suspect if you look directly at what he's done in the past.
And no, Karn still would not manipulate events. Precisely BECAUSE he's a product of Urza. He's seen what Urza was capable of, and really does take great pains to avoid being who his creator was.
He is younger than Sorin, yes. But he is also several Millenia old by now, and he has been sentient for most of that time (thus gaining knowledge/experience). As for not manipulating events... Yeah, that went well for him, now his artificial world has become the new home base of what his creator spent most of his life fighting. As I mentioned, I think he would manipulate events by taking on an advisory role more than anything. I.e. not directly interfering, but giving advice that would lead to a more stable society. Much like Teferi in Zhalfir before the whole island debacle that triggered the Mirage war.
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Also a fair point, however, Although I feel that the Izzet would give him the best opportunity for both fast advancement and thus the accompanying power, as well as carter to his innate talent in artifice, I almost did put him in Dimir due to his personality.
I understand where you're coming from; I think Tezzeret could do quite well in Izzet. Nice place to just do stuff and be left alone.
But the Dimir have what he wants; information and power.
He is younger than Sorin, yes. But he is also several Millenia old by now,
I'm pretty sure he's only like in the 400-600 range.
Also a fair point, however, Although I feel that the Izzet would give him the best opportunity for both fast advancement and thus the accompanying power, as well as carter to his innate talent in artifice, I almost did put him in Dimir due to his personality.
I understand where you're coming from; I think Tezzeret could do quite well in Izzet. Nice place to just do stuff and be left alone.
But the Dimir have what he wants; information and power.
Essentially. The Izzet's priority is progress and experimentation. They don't follow what Tezzeret has already shown an interest in. Tezzeret has ALREADY been a part of an organization like the Dimir. That's as clear an indication the he'd been in the Dimir as there can be.
He is younger than Sorin, yes. But he is also several Millenia old by now, and he has been sentient for most of that time (thus gaining knowledge/experience). As for not manipulating events... Yeah, that went well for him, now his artificial world has become the new home base of what his creator spent most of his life fighting. As I mentioned, I think he would manipulate events by taking on an advisory role more than anything. I.e. not directly interfering, but giving advice that would lead to a more stable society. Much like Teferi in Zhalfir before the whole island debacle that triggered the Mirage war.
No, he actually isn't. At maximum he's 1,400 years old. You're also looking for the word "Sapient", not sentient.
As well, I have no idea why you think just because he didn't manipulate things before and they went to crap, you'd think that he'd suddenly start now. It's just not in his nature man.
He doesn't interfere with societies. If he's going to take an active role in helping, it's going to be on a personal level. As he did with Jeska.
Essentially. The Izzet's priority is progress and experimentation. They don't follow what Tezzeret has already shown an interest in. Tezzeret has ALREADY been a part of an organization like the Dimir. That's as clear an indication the he'd been in the Dimir as there can be.
No, he actually isn't. At maximum he's 1,400 years old. You're also looking for the word "Sapient", not sentient.
As well, I have no idea why you think just because he didn't manipulate things before and they went to crap, you'd think that he'd suddenly start now. It's just not in his nature man.
He doesn't interfere with societies. If he's going to take an active role in helping, it's going to be on a personal level. As he did with Jeska.
I keep forgetting that Urza was frozen during the Ice Age, and it was quite a while after that he founded the Academy. >.<
And yes, I did mean Sapient, or self-aware.
But yes, that is exactly what I meant. He would help on a personal level. As an advisor.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
But yes, that is exactly what I meant. He would help on a personal level. As an advisor.
But he wouldn't approach the organization or try to mess with guild politics. He would approach someone like Emmara and just offer to help her.
That's the very basic breakdown we're having in communications. Karn would help who he could to make a better world, but NOT by going through the guilds or trying to make those organizations better.
He'd just help, period.
But he wouldn't approach the organization or try to mess with guild politics. He would approach someone like Emmara and just offer to help her.
That's the very basic breakdown we're having in communications. Karn would help who he could to make a better world, but NOT by going through the guilds or trying to make those organizations better.
He'd just help, period.
Yes. But the thing is, most of the guilds would have such a person. One who desires to make the plane better. They may not all share the same vision of what "better" means, but that has more to do with the philosophy of their guilds and their individual personalities than much else. Even Niv-Mizzet of the Izzet wants to make Ravnica a better place, in his own draconic way.
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Ajani: Selesnya or Boros. That much is obvious.
Jace: I really want to put Jace in Dimir (mechanically), but flavorfully, I'm not sure.
Liliana: Orzhov. She's not evil; she just knows what she wants, and will stop at nothing to get it. Like a true Orzhov.
Chandra: Rakdos. Nothing is more important to her than her personal freedom, which is of course true of the Rakdos as well.
Garruk: This is tough, since all the green guilds have a sense of community except Simic, and he's definitely not Simic.
Elspeth: Selesnya. She's very fragile, and absolutely despises black's ideals (if they can be called that). So I'd say she's the antithesis.
Tezzeret: Dimir, just because he's a total Starscream. (I mean, yeah, that's more of a Golgari trait, but can you honestly see them taking in a cyborg? Plus, he's a native Esperite who doesn't have a W bone in his body.)
Sarkhan: Izzet because dragons.
Nicol Bolas: Dimir! Everything is a Bolas plot!
Sorin: Rakdos or Golgari. Golgari because he balances the cycle of life and death. Rakdos because when he's not doing that, he just wants to have fun. Underneath that millennia-old exterior, he's still the teenager he was when he ascended, after all.
Nissa: Yeah, she knows black mana and has been to Lorwyn (and is a bit of an elvish supremacist, like the natives), but I still say she fits more Selesnya. It's the obsession with bloodlines (a green trait) and emphasis on collectives (a white trait) that truly makes a bigot.
Gideon: Boros. Dude has a serious hero complex.
Koth: Gruul. He's calm on the SOM Koth, but the Duel Decks one is anything but. And if he had a chance to kill Elesh Norn, he'd do it without thinking. ("Without thinking" being as bad as it sounds here.)
Venser: Izzet. Genius physicist, yeah, Izzet. (White is actually the least scientific color, and the Azorius are politicians, who generally make horrible scientists, and vice versa.)
Karn: Again, a tough one. Early Karn was definitely Selesnya ("I'll never harm a living thing. Why don't we all sing 'Kumbaya' with the Phyrexians?")
Tamiyo: I'm going with either Izzet or Simic. The knowledge part. Unlike Izzet, she's not blowing herself up for the lulz.
Tibalt: Rakdos. A darker version than Chandra or Sorin, since Tibalt is an outright sadist, while Chandra and Sorin just want to experience all life offers. Of course, if he could convince the Simic that injecting phenol in your eye will advance our knowledge and ultimately improve all life on Ravnica, he'd join them. And if he could convince the Selesnya that torture strips away individuality, he'd join them. And oh, there's so much fun in Dimir, making it so people can only remember pain. What I'm saying is, Tibalt would be in any guild, as long as he gets to hurt people.
Vraska: Dimir. She's an assassin. I have yet to figure out what's so green about her card anyway.
Domri: Gruul. Though I prefer to think Domri wants to be the very best, like no one ever was.
Ral: Izzet. I mean, any planeswalker with a coin flip ability is already Izzet.
In oldwalkers, Teferi's manipulative enough to be Dimir, even if neither flash nor blinking is B.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
In oldwalkers, Teferi's manipulative enough to be Dimir, even if neither flash nor blinking is B.
Though the game can't reflect this because of mechanical needs, in the story, the people of Ravnica do not think in terms of color. Emmara has tried to recruit Jace to the Conclave on more than one occasion.
Vraska: Dimir. She faked her own death to take deliciously ironic vengeance using secrets, lies, and sleeper agents. That green mana symbol isn't fooling anyone, she's not Golgari.
Not to mention her network of assassins, agents, and suchlike. I would go ahead and call her a (knowing? unknowing?!) Dimir PW living as a Golgari one.
Did you even pay attention during Innistrad block?
A loooooot of that was probably the veil.
Just compare to her behavior in Agents of Artifice. Generally, evil people don't feel bad about what they do.
I agree with Lili.
I don't think Lili's evil, she just feels like she's been backed into a corner (whether or not its true) and the veil (and its curse) tend to negatively affect a person's personality.
A loooooot of that was probably the veil.
Just compare to her behavior in Agents of Artifice. Generally, evil people don't feel bad about what they do.
She showed her evil side before she got to the veil in the comics.
She is a necromancer who animates the dead, rapes the minds of her enemies (as shown in the discard ability of her first card), traffics with demons, and inflict plagues upon her enemies.
Yeah, she is evil.
Evil people can still have feelings and emotions, and even a conscience, heck they can even believe that what they are doing is good and just, that doesn't make them any less evil.
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She showed her evil side before she got to the veil in the comics.
She is a necromancer who animates the dead, rapes the minds of her enemies (as shown in the discard ability of her first card), traffics with demons, and inflict plagues upon her enemies.
Yeah, she is evil.
Evil people can still have feelings and emotions, and even a conscience, heck they can even believe that what they are doing is good and just, that doesn't make them any less evil.
I would not go as far as to use the phrase "rapes the minds of her enemies" when she hasn't been shown to use any true mind magic in the stories. Tortures her enemies into insanity? Sure, I'll spot you that--look at Liliana's Caress. That's not a good touch. But it's different from the type of mind magic that, for example, Jace throws around.
Yay for Bari's post
True, as you mentioned, a two-color planeswalker doesn't automatically mean that they will fit the guild with those colors (such as my suggesting Nissa in Orzhov, however crazy that is), and several planeswalkers most certainly don't like being in any of the 10 guilds.
That said, for the ones I specifically quoted above, though, if you MUST shoehorn them in, which guild do you think they'll fit?
Nissa is entirely dependent on the elvish breeds to determine hers. The mana she's used in the past have everything to do with the influence of the Gilt-Leaf elves.
In the end, I think the dark scriptures of the Devkarin would invariably draw her further into the Golgari than the peace-preaching of the Silhana of Selesnya or the raw fury of the Gruul Silhana. Yes, they both revere nature, but one of the key characteristics of Nissa is the racial vanity.... and of those, only the Devkarin place themselves above others.
Sarkhan would look to the Gruul first, for the bestial dragons of Utvara. These are what he understands, these are the expectations he would match. Once he learned of Niv-Mizzet, he would likely wish to worship the dragon, but honestly, something you have to remember is the Izzet wouldn't have him. At best, he could hope to serve as a test subject, and he's not one to allow his dignity to be ravaged quite THAT badly unless it comes directly from the dragon himself.
Sorin is a hedonist. He's going to do whatever he feels like. The guilds most likely to allow this are also the most decadent, and he loathes that. Your closest bet? Probably Dimir, because he can be left to himself... and then he'd melt Lazav from the inside out and tell the rest of the guild to fetch him whatever he felt like at the time.
I'd say that Tamiyo, the other one I'm most interested in talking about would lean toward Izzet or Simic. Why? She's a scientist and a scholar, not a lawyer or a spy so Azorious or Dimir are obviously out. Of all of them she's probably most likely to join a guild if for no other reason than the access to new forms of knowledge.
Kiora and Zeganna would have tea together but if we've got *** that she's not Simic but an aquatic Gruul type I can see the gruul liking her like a foreign exchange student. Kind of "Lol. Silly merfolk. You're not Gruul." *Kiora summons giant leviathan from the oceans under Ravnica and tears up half the streets in the area*. "Nevermind. THAT was pretty Gruul."
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URZA is a scholar and inventor first and foremost, so I think he would be most at home in the Izzet.
FREYALISE is most likely Gruul due to her fierce devotion to preserving and protecting the natural order of things.
TEFERI, despite his noble heart, is a trickster at his core. I can easily see him fooling around with the Dimir.
JAYA She's a hard one to place. I'm thinking her free spirit would be best served with Rakdos, and she actually does like to blow stuff up. It's tough because she doesn't revel in suffering as much as your typical Rakdos would.
LESHARC is a master manipulator. I think he'd fit most closely with the Dimir.
TEVESH SZAT Rakdos. No Question.
JESKA is more Boros than Gruul. True, she is a natural barbarian, but her militaristic way of thinking (as shown in the Time Spiral novels) shows a clear Boros lean.
COMMODORE GUFF For some reason, I see him as Simic. Can't explain why, though.
LORD WINDGRACE WIndgrace is Gruul. he has his natural order and his main focus is on maintaining it. Plus, the whole "hatred of technology" thing.
TAYSIR hard to place our five-colored Planeswalker, but my first guess would be Azorious.
BO LEVAR his devotion to community and protecting the weak leads me to think he'd see things the Selesnyan way.
SERRA she's about as monowhite as you can get, but for the sake of this topic, I think she'd fit best with Selesnya.
...and while we're at it...
SLOBAD would definitely be Izzet. A Goblin tinkerer is so RU.
GLISSA pre-compleation would most likely be Gruul, because of her uncanny knack for destroying atrifacts
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http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/243
That preview article flat out shows how Jace's antics causes him to be accused as Dimir
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Jace I can see joining the Dimir, but I think that most of the Blue walkers, Tamiyo included, could do well in the Dimir.
Liliana would be Rakdos, no question about it. She's too callous and unfeeling for the Golgari and would find the Orzhov too restrictive. While she might be a good fit for the Dimir, I think she would chafe at the idea that she would have to report her findings to someone further up the ladder than she is.
Chandra probably Izzet, although I think she would find them to care too much about knowledge and not enough about having a good time. She's too nice for the Rakdos, not wild enough for the Gruul, and doesn't care enough for her fellow man to be in the Boros.
Garruk would be Gruul, without a doubt.
Koth is hard to place. He's not like other Red walkers - he's really stoic and heroic. Either Gruul or Boros. Probably Boros.
Sorin would be Orzhov. Even though he doesn't like excess, the ability to manipulate social forces in a Black sort of way would prove too strong a lure to ignore.
Nissa I haven't had much experience with, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say Selesnya.
Karn would probably shun the guilds, although I can see him being interested in the more science-y guilds, the Izzet and the Simic.
Tamiyo, well, see my post about Jace above. Although, come to think of it, she might like being in the Simic. She has that "I'm a moon rabbit librarian/research assistant" feel about her, doesn't she?
Tezzeret would be Dimir, and probably have all kinds of deals with the Izzet for nifty rogue tech.
Tibalt would be Rakdos - another no-brainer, although I imagine he would probably do things that would make the Rakdos go "Woah, buddy, going a little too far, don't you think?"
Elspeth would probably be Boros, although I could just as easily see her being an Azorius. She's militant about justice, that's for sure.
Venser is dead, so there's no point in discussing where he'd end up, and Ral Zarek, Domri Rade, and Vraska have all been associated with guilds already.
Bolas would never lower himself to the level of joining a guild. He'd just reduce the entire plane into cinders and swamp, and all those that didn't become his cultists and followers would get turned into zombies. Niv-Miz would take one look at him and go "Later, peeps." and just fly off to his secret condo or whatever.
Ajani Goldmane: Ajani is all about support, both spiritually and physically, and his cards reflect this (except a small stint as vengeant), he is basically Selesnya, true and through.
Chandra Nalaar: Chandra is a generally good person who values freedom over everything else, but she is still loyal to those she consider her friends. She would chafe under most guilds, but one would give her the freedom she needs and desires, the Gruul clans.
Garruk Wildspeaker: A loner that dislikes civilization? Yeah, he is so Gruul it is not even funny.
Jace Beleren: Jace Beleren is a mind mage capable of erasing memories and even creating them. He is mostly using these abilities for good causes, but there is only one guild in which he and his abilities would fit: The Dimir. Do note that the Dimir can do good things as well as bad, and Jace would very likely try to steer them towards the "light".
Liliana Vess: Liliana has only one concern, and that is Liliana. She would never stoop to rely on a guild for long enough to become a member, but she would gladly use them all if it benefited her for a while, before dropping them as a sack of hot potatoes once she got bored.
Elspeth Tirel: Elspeth Tirel longs for a place to belong, this coupled with her strong sense of responsibility (when not reliving the Trauma she received at the hands of Phyrexians as a child), honor, and justice, she'd make a fine member of the Boros Legion.
Sarkhan Vol: Before his trauma at the hands of Nicol Bolas, Sarkhan was a wild and rough Shaman who would be a perfect fit in the Gruul Clans, and although he has become a bit unhinged after getting mentally manhandled by Bolas, and one would think this would make him a perfect fit for the Rakdos, I still think he belongs in the Gruul Clans.
Tezzeret the Seeker: There is no true Artificers guild on Ravnica, but the closest that Tezzeret would be able to find is the Izzet League, where his skill and intelligence would quickly have him rise through the ranks. Eventually he would try and challenge Niv-Mizzet, but he would ultimately fail.
Nicol Bolas: Nicol Bolas does not join guilds, he uses them as unwitting pawns in his extended plans to become immortal again.
Nissa Revane: Nissa dislikes Ravnica's lack of nature. So one would think she would align herself with the nature loving and wild Gruul or the Biomancers of the Simic. But the truth is, she would find the Gruul to brutish for her tastes (and the apparent lack of elves in the guild is a big minus), and she is not nearly smart enough for the Simic (nor would she willingly submit to the merfolk). How about the two primarly elf guilds then? Selesnya and Golgari? The Golgari would probably be to dirty for her, and they align themselves with undead creatures, and Selesnya subsumes individuality to much for her tastes, and again, she'd have to submit to a non-elf. Realistically, she'd spend some time with the Clanless elves before moving on to "greener pastures".
Sorin Markov: Sorin Markov is a vampire who is slightly decadent (unsurprising considering his age), loyal, and willing to do what needs to be done, how underhanded it may be. He would without a doubt be a perfect fit for the Church of Orzhov, where he would quickly rise though the ranks before eventually displacing the Obzedat as guild leader. He'd eventually get bored with the position and step down, but continue to check in on the guild from time to time and help out.
Gideon Jura: Gideon is all about justice, doing what is right, and protecting the innocent. These are all perfect traits for a member of the Boros Legion. However, should the guild leader ever turn against what is right and just, he will have no qualms about dethroning them.
Koth of the Hammer: Koth is busy dealing with, and protecting his people from, New Phyrexia, but should he manage to save his people and get them off Mirrodin, he might end up on Ravnica and join a guild. Koth is a powerful Geomancer, a skilled smith, and, although hot tempered, honorable and just. As such, he would be a good fit for the Boros Legion.
Venser the Sojurner: Is dead. But if in some alternate reality he was alive, his skill with teleportation magic, high intelligence, and skill with artificing and pursuit of knowledge (relating to artificing), would make him an ideal member of the Izzet League.
Karn, Silver Golem: Karn is old, Karn is powerful, and Karn has more important things to worry about than the guilds. Should he against all odds show up on Ravnica, he'd do his best to manipulate the guilds into a more coherent and balanced whole where the guilds work together to improved Ravnica rather than squabble over what Karn would consider to be ultimately small and unimportant issues.
Tamyio, the Moon Sage: Now, I don't know to much about Tamiyo, but what I do know is that she is more or less obsessed with two things: knowledge and moons. Now, I don't know much about the moon(s) of Ravnica, but should she ever visit the Plane, there are only two possible guilds for her to join that are as obsessed with knowledge that she is: The Izzet and the Simic. Of the two, I think that the Simic would be the logic choice for her to join, particularly now that they are under new management, and have gotten a little more sane. I doubt she would enjoy the chaos of the Izzet.
Tibalt: Tibalt is a psychopathic freak of nature with a sadistic streak that would most demons blush. If he ever ended up on Ravnica, it would not take long before he was a member of the Rakdos Cult. And I am fairly certain that he would love it there.
Vraska: Despite her secrecy, and extensive use of assassins, Vraska is still a member of the Golgari Hive. And she still reveres the Golgari's beliefs. Also, she is not really concerned with acquiring knowledge, just vengeance against those who have wronged her and her kind.
Domri Rade: Domri is Gruul, he has always wanted to be Gruul, and that is all he loves to be.
Ral Zarek: Ral is the epitome of what the Izzet is about. Heck, his thought processes sometimes generate lightning storms if the flavor text of Blast of Genius is to be believed.
Bonus Planeswalker!:
Kiora Atua: Although she is aligned with Blue and Green mana. Kiora is not Simic, nor is it likely she will ever be. Kiora's mind is utterly alien and she concerns herself primarily with the real monsters of the deep, Krakens, Leviathans, and the like. She may be just a little bit unhinged as well. If she should against all odds find herself on Ravnica, she would note the lack of oceans before attempting to create one by summoning Leviathans and Krakens. Of all the guilds, the only one with which her goals superficially align would be the Gruul, who want to see more wilderness in Ravnica. However, she would never align herself with a guild.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
You're... actually really really wrong about this one I think. Considering that he ruled the Consortium, an organization just one step removed from the Dimir...
Karn isn't the type to manipulate. Never has been.
That is true, however, they are the only guild whose philosophy she agrees with. She would chafe under the rest. But you are quite right, and as such I doubt she'd join any guild.
That is also a very good point, however, he did lose it to Jace, and Tezzeret *is* inclined towards artifice, as such I placed him the only place that makes sense for an artificer such as himself. He would of course, bring his treacherous nature with him, and all of his subterfuge. He would try and manipulate the guild towards his own ends and eventually try to lay claim to the position of guild leader to cement his power. But he would ultimately fail spectacularly.
Not directly, no. But he is a very old, and very wise planeswalker, having learned from his past mistakes. He would likely give manipulate events by giving advice rather than by other means. He is a child of Urza after all, and he does have shades of his creator in him (why else create Mirrodin and the probes?). Sometimes words, even if true and given with good intent, can manipulate the people around him. Also, I think that after his experiences on the corrupted Mirrodin he will take a more active role in shaping the society of various planes to prevent similar corruption.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I'm not really disagreeing with your assessment, because I made one much similar to it, but I just drew the line that she wouldn't join the Gruul.
The biggest problem that you're encountering with this is that you assume Tezzeret's ends are artifice. They aren't. His ends are power, artifice is just the tool. That's why he'd be so much more at home in the Dimir, because, largely, it doesn't matter what tool you use in the Dimir.
He's probably not half as old as you seem to think he is. Most of that time wasn't as a walker either so...
His wisdom is also a bit suspect if you look directly at what he's done in the past.
And no, Karn still would not manipulate events. Precisely BECAUSE he's a product of Urza. He's seen what Urza was capable of, and really does take great pains to avoid being who his creator was.
That is a very good point actually.
Also a fair point, however, Although I feel that the Izzet would give him the best opportunity for both fast advancement and thus the accompanying power, as well as carter to his innate talent in artifice, I almost did put him in Dimir due to his personality.
He is younger than Sorin, yes. But he is also several Millenia old by now, and he has been sentient for most of that time (thus gaining knowledge/experience). As for not manipulating events... Yeah, that went well for him, now his artificial world has become the new home base of what his creator spent most of his life fighting. As I mentioned, I think he would manipulate events by taking on an advisory role more than anything. I.e. not directly interfering, but giving advice that would lead to a more stable society. Much like Teferi in Zhalfir before the whole island debacle that triggered the Mirage war.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I understand where you're coming from; I think Tezzeret could do quite well in Izzet. Nice place to just do stuff and be left alone.
But the Dimir have what he wants; information and power.
I'm pretty sure he's only like in the 400-600 range.
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Essentially. The Izzet's priority is progress and experimentation. They don't follow what Tezzeret has already shown an interest in. Tezzeret has ALREADY been a part of an organization like the Dimir. That's as clear an indication the he'd been in the Dimir as there can be.
No, he actually isn't. At maximum he's 1,400 years old. You're also looking for the word "Sapient", not sentient.
As well, I have no idea why you think just because he didn't manipulate things before and they went to crap, you'd think that he'd suddenly start now. It's just not in his nature man.
He doesn't interfere with societies. If he's going to take an active role in helping, it's going to be on a personal level. As he did with Jeska.
I keep forgetting that Urza was frozen during the Ice Age, and it was quite a while after that he founded the Academy. >.<
And yes, I did mean Sapient, or self-aware.
But yes, that is exactly what I meant. He would help on a personal level. As an advisor.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
But he wouldn't approach the organization or try to mess with guild politics. He would approach someone like Emmara and just offer to help her.
That's the very basic breakdown we're having in communications. Karn would help who he could to make a better world, but NOT by going through the guilds or trying to make those organizations better.
He'd just help, period.
Yes. But the thing is, most of the guilds would have such a person. One who desires to make the plane better. They may not all share the same vision of what "better" means, but that has more to do with the philosophy of their guilds and their individual personalities than much else. Even Niv-Mizzet of the Izzet wants to make Ravnica a better place, in his own draconic way.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Jace: I really want to put Jace in Dimir (mechanically), but flavorfully, I'm not sure.
Liliana: Orzhov. She's not evil; she just knows what she wants, and will stop at nothing to get it. Like a true Orzhov.
Chandra: Rakdos. Nothing is more important to her than her personal freedom, which is of course true of the Rakdos as well.
Garruk: This is tough, since all the green guilds have a sense of community except Simic, and he's definitely not Simic.
Elspeth: Selesnya. She's very fragile, and absolutely despises black's ideals (if they can be called that). So I'd say she's the antithesis.
Tezzeret: Dimir, just because he's a total Starscream. (I mean, yeah, that's more of a Golgari trait, but can you honestly see them taking in a cyborg? Plus, he's a native Esperite who doesn't have a W bone in his body.)
Sarkhan: Izzet because dragons.
Nicol Bolas: Dimir! Everything is a Bolas plot!
Sorin: Rakdos or Golgari. Golgari because he balances the cycle of life and death. Rakdos because when he's not doing that, he just wants to have fun. Underneath that millennia-old exterior, he's still the teenager he was when he ascended, after all.
Nissa: Yeah, she knows black mana and has been to Lorwyn (and is a bit of an elvish supremacist, like the natives), but I still say she fits more Selesnya. It's the obsession with bloodlines (a green trait) and emphasis on collectives (a white trait) that truly makes a bigot.
Gideon: Boros. Dude has a serious hero complex.
Koth: Gruul. He's calm on the SOM Koth, but the Duel Decks one is anything but. And if he had a chance to kill Elesh Norn, he'd do it without thinking. ("Without thinking" being as bad as it sounds here.)
Venser: Izzet. Genius physicist, yeah, Izzet. (White is actually the least scientific color, and the Azorius are politicians, who generally make horrible scientists, and vice versa.)
Karn: Again, a tough one. Early Karn was definitely Selesnya ("I'll never harm a living thing. Why don't we all sing 'Kumbaya' with the Phyrexians?")
Tamiyo: I'm going with either Izzet or Simic. The knowledge part. Unlike Izzet, she's not blowing herself up for the lulz.
Tibalt: Rakdos. A darker version than Chandra or Sorin, since Tibalt is an outright sadist, while Chandra and Sorin just want to experience all life offers. Of course, if he could convince the Simic that injecting phenol in your eye will advance our knowledge and ultimately improve all life on Ravnica, he'd join them. And if he could convince the Selesnya that torture strips away individuality, he'd join them. And oh, there's so much fun in Dimir, making it so people can only remember pain. What I'm saying is, Tibalt would be in any guild, as long as he gets to hurt people.
Vraska: Dimir. She's an assassin. I have yet to figure out what's so green about her card anyway.
Domri: Gruul. Though I prefer to think Domri wants to be the very best, like no one ever was.
Ral: Izzet. I mean, any planeswalker with a coin flip ability is already Izzet.
In oldwalkers, Teferi's manipulative enough to be Dimir, even if neither flash nor blinking is B.
On phasing:
Though the game can't reflect this because of mechanical needs, in the story, the people of Ravnica do not think in terms of color.
Emmara has tried to recruit Jace to the Conclave on more than one occasion.
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Not to mention her network of assassins, agents, and suchlike. I would go ahead and call her a (knowing? unknowing?!) Dimir PW living as a Golgari one.
Not evil... right.
Did you even pay attention during Innistrad block?
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
A loooooot of that was probably the veil.
Just compare to her behavior in Agents of Artifice. Generally, evil people don't feel bad about what they do.
I don't think Lili's evil, she just feels like she's been backed into a corner (whether or not its true) and the veil (and its curse) tend to negatively affect a person's personality.
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She showed her evil side before she got to the veil in the comics.
She is a necromancer who animates the dead, rapes the minds of her enemies (as shown in the discard ability of her first card), traffics with demons, and inflict plagues upon her enemies.
Yeah, she is evil.
Evil people can still have feelings and emotions, and even a conscience, heck they can even believe that what they are doing is good and just, that doesn't make them any less evil.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I would not go as far as to use the phrase "rapes the minds of her enemies" when she hasn't been shown to use any true mind magic in the stories. Tortures her enemies into insanity? Sure, I'll spot you that--look at Liliana's Caress. That's not a good touch. But it's different from the type of mind magic that, for example, Jace throws around.
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