“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And while it seems Ashiok was able to get away and not be captured and compleated like many guess they would be, Norn now has a bigger reason to try and compleat them. This shows how horrific it will be if the Phyrexians get Ashiok magic on their side as wells as how Ashiok magic might be used against them by Phyrexia. I wonder where this falls in the timeline since this might also explain why Norn was suddenly wanting Jin to compleat planeswalkers.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This is soooo exciting to get a New Phyrexia story after soooo long!!! It was a good read, and I was surprised at the twist for why Elesh Norn was feeling a certain way. I agree that this prob took place before the events of New Capenna, prob before Kaldheim since this can be seen as the motivation to expand beyond the plane. It does have me wondering if this is just the first part of a spread out timeline showing us how New Phyrexia experimented with plane hopping and planeswalker compleation. It would be cool to get these stories sprinkled throughout the time between now and the eventual return to NP to add to our suspense and anticipation!
Ashiok was giving nightmares to mirrans eventually decided to test it on a phyrexian
And ashiok clowned around with elesh norns mind with a failed compleation/weeds/and imperfect body parts (ashiok was unbelievable surprised that phyrexians can have nightmares)
elesh norn panics when fake elspeth wearing norns armor and a mirror image of herself as if a human
elesh norn wants elspeth destoreyd because she feels she brings imperfection because of ashioks nightmares he/she gave her (thus showing urabrask was infact telling the truth on elesh norn being afraid of elsepth)
what question is when it took place and how does it look for urabrask and Tezzerts claims to Vivien on new capenna
second are we gonna get more storys on this to show the origin story on the return of the phyrexian menace
like
when Tezerret came in and made the deal with him
Vorinclex going to kaldheim and why elesh wanted the tyrite from the world tree
how she got vorinclex/jin-gitaxias/the black thanes (sheoldred/and the heirs to the black praetor role)
finally when tezzeret found urabrask and discussed stuff and decided to go to new capenna to betray elesh
I don't know if it's been a long enough time since the cavalcade of Eldrazi...but honestly, a lot of Elesh Norn's nightmare sounds like what Emrakul was doing to Innistrad. And Tamiyo did, briefly, get possessed by the Titan.
I don't know what the specific connection will be, but I have a distinct feeling that this will not be the last of them.
Funny they use the pronoun "they" for Ashiok. I thought Ashiok is beyond pronouns.
Nope just unknown/ambiguous along with what species Ashiok is.
For an outside reason as well, Ashiok was created when they/them wasn't as widely known by the general public as pronouns used by people who don't identify in the gender binary and using they/them is now used to better reflect this (and better writing flow as it can be clunky just to use Ashiok all the time).
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Funny they use the pronoun "they" for Ashiok. I thought Ashiok is beyond pronouns.
Nope just unknown/ambiguous along with what species Ashiok is.
For an outside reason as well, Ashiok was created when they/them wasn't as widely known by the general public as pronouns used by people who don't identify in the gender binary and using they/them is now used to better reflect this (and better writing flow as it can be clunky just to use Ashiok all the time).
I prefer Ashiok without a pronoun, it shows how much Ashiok doesn't give a S about norms.
Funny they use the pronoun "they" for Ashiok. I thought Ashiok is beyond pronouns.
Nope just unknown/ambiguous along with what species Ashiok is.
For an outside reason as well, Ashiok was created when they/them wasn't as widely known by the general public as pronouns used by people who don't identify in the gender binary and using they/them is now used to better reflect this (and better writing flow as it can be clunky just to use Ashiok all the time).
I think there's also an element of not wanting to do the thing where a marginalized identity is associated with monstrosity/otherness, and at the time the only other non-binary character was...Karn, someone who hadn't really been in the plot for a while (and who hadn't really been identified as non-binary). So I think that was more or less a way to cover their ass. Ashiok isn't non-binary, Ashiok is beyond the concept of gender.
I personally like it, as I think it's a unique way to have a character like this, but I understand the readability issue.
My thoughts on the use of they here is "Well, it's not like Elesh Norn is friends with Ashiok. She wouldn't know what Ashiok's proper pronouns would be, so they it is."
My thoughts on the use of they here is "Well, it's not like Elesh Norn is friends with Ashiok. She wouldn't know what Ashiok's proper pronouns would be, so they it is."
That basically that reason to use they/them for Ashiok anyways, no one knows Ashiok's proper pronouns (if they even use any) and they/them is the most appropriate for english currently.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I don't know if it's been a long enough time since the cavalcade of Eldrazi...but honestly, a lot of Elesh Norn's nightmare sounds like what Emrakul was doing to Innistrad. And Tamiyo did, briefly, get possessed by the Titan.
I don't know what the specific connection will be, but I have a distinct feeling that this will not be the last of them.
I kinda like this idea. Some have speculated that Emrakul might be unleashed on the phyrexians as some sort of weapon of mass destruction at the culmination of the phyrexian arc (maybe after evacuating the remaining mirrans). Turning Norn's nightmare into a reality at the end would be a nice payoff to earlier foreshadowing.
Also, when I read the story I first assumed the female person Elesh Norn 'couldn't quite identify' was actually her before her compleation, which would further play into her fears that she is somehow flawed, but instead it's Elspeth. Mmh, ok. Kind of a weird/lame twist. Why would Norn be especially afraid of Elspeth of all people. Just because she escaped?
Personally I'd assume there are (or were, I guess) far more powerful entities on Mirrodin, like Sphinxes, Demons and, well, the other praetors. But instead we need to be beaten over our head or awesome and powerful planeswalkers are and even the mother of machines trembles in fear at their mere memory. :eyeroll:
Also, when I read the story I first assumed the female person Elesh Norn 'couldn't quite identify' was actually her before her compleation, which would further play into her fears that she is somehow flawed, but instead it's Elspeth. Mmh, ok. Kind of a weird/lame twist. Why would Norn be especially afraid of Elspeth of all people. Just because she escaped?
Personally I'd assume there are (or were, I guess) far more powerful entities on Mirrodin, like Sphinxes, Demons and, well, the other praetors. But instead we need to be beaten over our head or awesome and powerful planeswalkers are and even the mother of machines trembles in fear at their mere memory. :eyeroll:
I don't know if it's much of a twist, given that the Urabrask subplot explicitly mentioned Elesh Norn being afraid of Elspeth in some capacity. Asforwhy. And in Quest for Karn, Elspeth killed...a lot of Phyrexians. Like...an enormous amount. There seems to be something about her magic that is anti-Phyrexian, in some capacity. Even as a child, she was able to effectively "scare" one off right before planeswalking.
Plus, Sphinxes (Sphinges?) are a known and converted entity, Demons are a known and converted entity, and Elesh Norn already thinks herself above the other praetors, so...that's not really an issue. Whether they're actually more threatening is a whole other story than what she thinks about them.
Given how vague they've been with both the origin of the Praetors as well as Elspeth's backstory, even with New Capenna's release, they'll likely be finding small things that they can twist into larger plot points. They may capitalize on the slight similarities between their names, and the mirror-image fight to imply some deeper connection between the two, aside from being some sort of narrative foil.
Plus Elspeth actually has an emotional connection. She led the rebels alongside Koth and Karn, she wasn't a rando. Put in Ashiok's nightmare juice and Elesh Norn is now convinced Elspeth is the embodiment of her problems.
While the writing was very solid, the imagery was beautifully twisted and fantastic, and there were some truly hard-hitting, unnerving moments (Elesh Norn's gut-wrenching reaction to the pity in Elspeth's eyes), I have qualms with this story's content.
This is the very first fiction in which we've ever seen Elesh Norn appear directly. I would think this would aim to be a terrifying, character-establishing entrance, setting her up as a worthy major villain whom the audience should dread.
Yet she is shown to be very vulnerable here. She is manipulated into feeling fear, toyed with by Ashiok. While Norn certainly retains her aura of regal menace, she is shown, in this debut fiction, during a uniquely weak and vulnerable moment in which someone else has the upper hand and is preying upon her.
Why are we being introduced to her vulnerabilities and insecurities before we even get to see her sowing terror and kicking ass?
This could have been mitigated somewhat if she had actually succeeded in capturing Ashiok. Norn ought to have come out on top, establishing her right here as a power whom all planeswalkers should fear.
Anyway, I still think she's an interesting character, and this vulnerability of hers gives an interesting new dimension to her character. But this seems a bit too soon for it.
While the writing was very solid, the imagery was beautifully twisted and fantastic, and there were some truly hard-hitting, unnerving moments (Elesh Norn's gut-wrenching reaction to the pity in Elspeth's eyes), I have qualms with this story's content.
This is the very first fiction in which we've ever seen Elesh Norn appear directly. I would think this would aim to be a terrifying, character-establishing entrance, setting her up as a worthy major villain whom the audience should dread.
Yet she is shown to be very vulnerable here. She is manipulated into feeling fear, toyed with by Ashiok. While Norn certainly retains her aura of regal menace, she is shown, in this debut fiction, during a uniquely weak and vulnerable moment in which someone else has the upper hand and is preying upon her.
Why are we being introduced to her vulnerabilities and insecurities before we even get to see her sowing terror and kicking ass?
This could have been mitigated somewhat if she had actually succeeded in capturing Ashiok. Norn ought to have come out on top, establishing her right here as a power whom all planeswalkers should fear.
Anyway, I still think she's an interesting character, and this vulnerability of hers gives an interesting new dimension to her character. But this seems a bit too soon for it.
While I agree that maybe she should have been able to capture Ashiok here to show her strengths as well, we HAVE seen her menacing side before, from card text and flavor, from the description of her in the Planeswalker's Guide, and from the description of her overwhelming the red and black Phyrexians with ease. So far everything has been going in her favor overall, so this would have been "just" another one in a long string of successes. Yes, those were all things not shown from her point of view, but I think we pretty much got a good view on how she and the white Phyrexians think in the overall flavor of the game. Your mileage may vary so to speak, but I like that she is reintroduced to us here at the top of her game, ready to conquer the multiverse, only to suddenly realize that she is not quite so perfect as she thinks she is.
I think that encapsulates the thing about the praetors as characters. They didn't debut when they should have, in Quest for Karn, but everything about them has been meticulously built from their apparence to their in-universe atrocities for YEARS now. They're at the same time established characters and not-ctually since we've only recently got around to Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxias.
Elspeth is Diana .
Elesh Norn is Queen Elizabeth .
Queen Elizabeth had Diana killed .
Now Diana is incarnating as a spirit using a card game as a medium .
And they are afraid .
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Do not print cards of me .
-Irini Sengir
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/garden-flesh-2022-05-03
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
what question is when it took place and how does it look for urabrask and Tezzerts claims to Vivien on new capenna
second are we gonna get more storys on this to show the origin story on the return of the phyrexian menace
like
I don't know what the specific connection will be, but I have a distinct feeling that this will not be the last of them.
how nice
-Irini Sengir
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Nope just unknown/ambiguous along with what species Ashiok is.
For an outside reason as well, Ashiok was created when they/them wasn't as widely known by the general public as pronouns used by people who don't identify in the gender binary and using they/them is now used to better reflect this (and better writing flow as it can be clunky just to use Ashiok all the time).
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I prefer Ashiok without a pronoun, it shows how much Ashiok doesn't give a S about norms.
I suspect Ashiok is a djinn, as seen with Inniaz, the Gale Force.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I think there's also an element of not wanting to do the thing where a marginalized identity is associated with monstrosity/otherness, and at the time the only other non-binary character was...Karn, someone who hadn't really been in the plot for a while (and who hadn't really been identified as non-binary). So I think that was more or less a way to cover their ass. Ashiok isn't non-binary, Ashiok is beyond the concept of gender.
I personally like it, as I think it's a unique way to have a character like this, but I understand the readability issue.
My thoughts on the use of they here is "Well, it's not like Elesh Norn is friends with Ashiok. She wouldn't know what Ashiok's proper pronouns would be, so they it is."
Ah just double checked, the art book for war of the spark states Ashiok is "beyond species, biology and gender". So not beyond pronouns.
That basically that reason to use they/them for Ashiok anyways, no one knows Ashiok's proper pronouns (if they even use any) and they/them is the most appropriate for english currently.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I kinda like this idea. Some have speculated that Emrakul might be unleashed on the phyrexians as some sort of weapon of mass destruction at the culmination of the phyrexian arc (maybe after evacuating the remaining mirrans). Turning Norn's nightmare into a reality at the end would be a nice payoff to earlier foreshadowing.
Also, when I read the story I first assumed the female person Elesh Norn 'couldn't quite identify' was actually her before her compleation, which would further play into her fears that she is somehow flawed, but instead it's Elspeth. Mmh, ok. Kind of a weird/lame twist. Why would Norn be especially afraid of Elspeth of all people. Just because she escaped?
Personally I'd assume there are (or were, I guess) far more powerful entities on Mirrodin, like Sphinxes, Demons and, well, the other praetors. But instead we need to be beaten over our head or awesome and powerful planeswalkers are and even the mother of machines trembles in fear at their mere memory. :eyeroll:
I don't know if it's much of a twist, given that the Urabrask subplot explicitly mentioned Elesh Norn being afraid of Elspeth in some capacity. As for why. And in Quest for Karn, Elspeth killed...a lot of Phyrexians. Like...an enormous amount. There seems to be something about her magic that is anti-Phyrexian, in some capacity. Even as a child, she was able to effectively "scare" one off right before planeswalking.
Plus, Sphinxes (Sphinges?) are a known and converted entity, Demons are a known and converted entity, and Elesh Norn already thinks herself above the other praetors, so...that's not really an issue. Whether they're actually more threatening is a whole other story than what she thinks about them.
Given how vague they've been with both the origin of the Praetors as well as Elspeth's backstory, even with New Capenna's release, they'll likely be finding small things that they can twist into larger plot points. They may capitalize on the slight similarities between their names, and the mirror-image fight to imply some deeper connection between the two, aside from being some sort of narrative foil.
This is the very first fiction in which we've ever seen Elesh Norn appear directly. I would think this would aim to be a terrifying, character-establishing entrance, setting her up as a worthy major villain whom the audience should dread.
Yet she is shown to be very vulnerable here. She is manipulated into feeling fear, toyed with by Ashiok. While Norn certainly retains her aura of regal menace, she is shown, in this debut fiction, during a uniquely weak and vulnerable moment in which someone else has the upper hand and is preying upon her.
Why are we being introduced to her vulnerabilities and insecurities before we even get to see her sowing terror and kicking ass?
This could have been mitigated somewhat if she had actually succeeded in capturing Ashiok. Norn ought to have come out on top, establishing her right here as a power whom all planeswalkers should fear.
Anyway, I still think she's an interesting character, and this vulnerability of hers gives an interesting new dimension to her character. But this seems a bit too soon for it.
While I agree that maybe she should have been able to capture Ashiok here to show her strengths as well, we HAVE seen her menacing side before, from card text and flavor, from the description of her in the Planeswalker's Guide, and from the description of her overwhelming the red and black Phyrexians with ease. So far everything has been going in her favor overall, so this would have been "just" another one in a long string of successes. Yes, those were all things not shown from her point of view, but I think we pretty much got a good view on how she and the white Phyrexians think in the overall flavor of the game. Your mileage may vary so to speak, but I like that she is reintroduced to us here at the top of her game, ready to conquer the multiverse, only to suddenly realize that she is not quite so perfect as she thinks she is.
Elesh Norn is Queen Elizabeth .
Queen Elizabeth had Diana killed .
Now Diana is incarnating as a spirit using a card game as a medium .
And they are afraid .
-Irini Sengir