And just as we celebrate as vaguely more decent Vivien in the book in story on cards she wishes for the entirety of sky sail to be popped.
*pillow in face*
And in the walker guide she talks about she likes sky sail for their methods of avoiding monsters.
There has always been difference between cards/world building/story but this set really feels disconnected, not sure its people not working in the office or what but the different heads of the hydras aren't talking as they should be.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
As a Poli Sci guy I find it interesting that the only inter/intra-civilization conflict (here all civilization is human so Human VS human conflict) that usually occurs between sentients is that of Bonders VS Nonbonders.
While I'me sure Bonder VS Bonder conflict also occurs (my monster preying on your monster), there seems to be very little mention of any quarrels between sanctuary cities. It's as if there's an unspoken law wherein sanctuaties don't attack one another, and this is likely because they require the trade and cooperation to merely ekke out a living and any conflict between sanctuaries would jeopardize their survival. Sanctuaries have outposts as city states might have vassal communities but there doesn't seem to be any territorial competition between sanctuaties. If you manage to survive long and well enough to build permamenant dwellings then you have a right to that land.
It's strange that there is no nomadic, hunter-gatherer tribe of humans as a nomadic pattern of living would be much more flexible and adaptive to nonsentient migratory and predatory patterns than more sedentary livlihoods. The sheer amount of mutations happening on the plane is a relatively recent thing so its not as though there had been no patterns of stability to the pane's past. What do they even EAT in Lavabrink?? Do they have academics, agriculturalists and engineers?? It's also strange that civilization is only now adapting to monster threats by integrating the magic of monster-human bonding to thier societies. Granted bonding on the plane is new, but magical study certainly isn't and not all monster-human cooperation would require the same degree of intamacy (no, not that kind of intimacy) created by an eludha. Vivian manages just fine, as do countless druids and shamans throughout the multiverse.
Once again I've overanalyzing the storybuilding of a card-game geared towards people ages 12-21. Fantasy doesn't make sense if you scratch too deep beneath the surface but it's nice when it can feel immersive. I think the lore for this world was a bit rushed but I look forward to seeing it fleshed out better when we return.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Well, there are slurrs against Lavabrink. And Skysail is nomadic.
True. Skysail is nomadic, though I meant terrestrially nomadic where camps are regularly packed and moved to a new spot as opposed to being vehicles in which one lives in. Though even this is fair but I'm just surprised nomadic living is an exception rather than the rule.
Edit: cooperation or even mutual toleration need not require all parties to think highly of or even like one another. Are there any examples of wars and battles between the three major sanctuary cities?
This is actually my main gripe with Ikoria. The worldbuilding feels very unrefined. Ikoria has only one thing going for it and that's the monsters. Take that away and there's literally nothing of note left. Other worlds are much more robust. Take away the nyxborn from Theros and you still have a greek world with the different poleis. Take away the guilds from Ravnica and you still have a city world. Take away the egyptian flavour of Amonkhet and you still have a world that is tragically and sickenly corrupted by Bolas.
Take away the monsters and there's what? A world with crystals? That is neither a hook nor... anything.
The humans on the world also don't really fit into the whole thing either. In Zendikar the cultures were shaped by their environment from their clothing to their weapons and even architecture. Sure, you could say that the whole mutating thing is recent but A) it's still not aesthetically pleasing if you don't know the history and as such have a special connection to it (like Dominaria does) and B) in that case you really need to show hints as to what the world was before, with ruins and so on (like Dominaria does). For all intents and purposes, Ikoria has no "before state".
To add insult to injury, there's hardly any cards representing kaiju-like monsters. Not even mutate allows you to build up kaijus, because the power and toughness don't stack. It's all just a soup of creatures that exist on other worlds as well, except without any sort of defining flavour. Ikoria monsters can be anything, their unifying feature is that there is no unifying feature, which blurs the whole world even further. The only thing Ikoria wants to do with kaijus, and it doesn't even do that very well.
I must admit I wasn't a fan of Eldraine either. It felt pretty shallow as well (but not as much as Ikoria) and the fairy tale references were too often way too close to the source material to make the set not feel like a non-canon crossover. Basically what Eldraine did was what Ikoria did with its Godzilla promos, except unironically. Both sets feel very fanmade and I am worried the "one set per world" paradigm is hurting the worldbuilding much more than anticipated.
...
HAVING ALL THAT SAID, I actually really like Ikoria as a magic set. Mechanically it's probably one of my favourite sets, if not the favourite set (reserving judgement for when I actually got to play with the cards of course), but worldbuildingwise it's one of my least favourites.
The sheer amount of mutations happening on the plane is a relatively recent thing so its not as though there had been no patterns of stability to the pane's past.
Sure, you could say that the whole mutating thing is recent but A) it's still not aesthetically pleasing if you don't know the history and as such have a special connection to it (like Dominaria does) and B) in that case you really need to show hints as to what the world was before, with ruins and so on (like Dominaria does). For all intents and purposes, Ikoria has no "before state".
Where is it stated or hinted that the mutations are a new development? With only one person mentioning it I assumed it was wrong but two people and now I'm looking for a source but can't find one.
Well, there are slurrs against Lavabrink. And Skysail is nomadic.
True. Skysail is nomadic, though I meant terrestrially nomadic where camps are regularly packed and moved to a new spot as opposed to being vehicles in which one lives in. Though even this is fair but I'm just surprised nomadic living is an exception rather than the rule.
Edit: cooperation or even mutual toleration need not require all parties to think highly of or even like one another. Are there any examples of wars and battles between the three major sanctuary cities?
They may not have wanted it to conflict too much with Zendikar, which has no consistent settlements due to the roil shifting terrain. I think there’s some but for the most part the nomadic/explorer trope is a Zendikar thing.
The humans on the world also don't really fit into the whole thing either. In Zendikar the cultures were shaped by their environment from their clothing to their weapons and even architecture. Sure, you could say that the whole mutating thing is recent but A) it's still not aesthetically pleasing if you don't know the history and as such have a special connection to it (like Dominaria does) and B) in that case you really need to show hints as to what the world was before, with ruins and so on (like Dominaria does). For all intents and purposes, Ikoria has no "before state".
I disagree. The human cultures were well built and defined, down to the specific wardrobes. We get a good sense of their culture, technology and even to a lesser degree their ideology.
I think I finally figured out why Vivien Reid annoys me. Shes Garruk but more talkative, condescending, and with a holier than thou complex. Garruk also didn't like civilization and preferred animals just like Vivien. He is always terse and sometimes curt with others, yet he was always more down to earth in his views except when he was cursed.
Yet Lukka more closely mirrors Garruk, as both Lukka and Garruk got their revenge against a authority figure in a civilized area who murdered something they held a close connection to. Lukka and his cat, Garruk and his father.
I'm also certain Vivien Reid would hate Garruk if she met him. Garruk is a hunter for both necessity and challenge. Vivien probably would lump Garruk in with Chevill, Bane of Monsters.
I also think Vivien would hate Garruk because of what Garruk wishes to protect, a pair of human planeswalkers of nobility. Said nobility whose people choose civilization over the wilds. Likely not understanding immediately why Garruk would want to protect them.
Well, there are slurrs against Lavabrink. And Skysail is nomadic.
True. Skysail is nomadic, though I meant terrestrially nomadic where camps are regularly packed and moved to a new spot as opposed to being vehicles in which one lives in. Though even this is fair but I'm just surprised nomadic living is an exception rather than the rule.
A few cards reference wildly shiftingpredator-prey patterns and though I can't find a specific citation, I walked away from the set with the impression that migratory routes had become more unpredictable as well. Perhaps a terrestrial nomadic society isn't seen on Ikoria because there are no predictable patterns of behavior to base a sustainable route on? Real world nomadic cultures typically base their routes on seasonal weather patterns and the migratory (or more generally, life cycle) patterns of animals. Maybe the animals of Ikoria are just too unpredictable overall to stay one step ahead of or whatever patterns that exist are just too irregular to compensate for?
Or such settlements existed but died off quickly and long enough ago that it doesn't even bear mentioning, let alone repeating?
Edit: cooperation or even mutual toleration need not require all parties to think highly of or even like one another. Are there any examples of wars and battles between the three major sanctuary cities?
I don't think so, but that tends to be the case when faced with existential threats: individuals may still quarrel, but larger communities tend not to dwell on inter-community conflicts that could render them vulnerable to the existential threat. It's difficult to marshal an army to attack another settlement when virtually all resources are placed on immediate survival. Even moving armies/war machines would pose a logistical problem on this plane, so it's not surprising that there's little evidence of the sanctuaries in open conflict with one another.
The human conflict seems to be between bonders and nonbonders, which didn't leave much room for warring cities. An offhand reference to the lack of war could have gone far to further develop the world, though, in addition to clarifying things.
There’s just No redeeming Viven honestly. The character had potential, but the only interesting aspect about Viven (lost home world) Samut does better. They could have played up the whole crossbow being ghosts of her former world, her anguish, more about her as a Steve Irwin type explorer (which Kiora does better) to differentiate her more from Garuuk, But instead she just seems like an awful version of other PW’s identities.
If I were writing the character, I’d have had her start out anguished over the loss of her world, using the crossbow to relive memories of it, then growing the courage to explore creatures of other worlds and realizing nature is all one entity, regardless of the plane, and becoming an explorer as a means of looking to the future and seeing glimpses of her own world through others.
Instead she’s just everything you don’t want to see in other green based characters, in one character. Her stories are better off avoided.
The sheer amount of mutations happening on the plane is a relatively recent thing so its not as though there had been no patterns of stability to the pane's past.
Sure, you could say that the whole mutating thing is recent but A) it's still not aesthetically pleasing if you don't know the history and as such have a special connection to it (like Dominaria does) and B) in that case you really need to show hints as to what the world was before, with ruins and so on (like Dominaria does). For all intents and purposes, Ikoria has no "before state".
Where is it stated or hinted that the mutations are a new development? With only one person mentioning it I assumed it was wrong but two people and now I'm looking for a source but can't find one.
It's near the beginning of the book when the General and his daughter are debating the danger of Lukka's bond. It's not that mutations themselves are unheard of but rather the sheer degree and number of these mutations relative to what occurred the past.
Just finished reading the book, skipping parts I found less interesting.
Overall, I am actually a little bit disappointed, because although the writing was fairly good the worldbuilding felt a bit shallow and there are large discrepencies between the book and the cards. It's as if the people making the game product weren't aware of the author's narrative aside from a very broad sketch.
Lukka does not meet the flying cat on the parparet and throughout the book is far more dismissive of the beast than the cards depict. Sure, he feels some pain when the beast dies but that is not the reason for his wanting to invade Drannith. In his heart, Lukka just wants to return to his old life but maddenly tries to achieve that by committing himself to acts he cannot return from.
From what Maro said, we know this set was pulled from its previous slotted and planned release to the present when it as determined to make Eldraine only a single set. While I don't know if this was enough to rush the developement of its worldbuilding (Theros seems 'whole' enough aside from the lack of an actual story), I do wonder if that move had an effect.
Y'know it's funny but I'm actually beginning to miss a general central arc of some sort. I liked Eldraine but I'm not a fan of Ikoria.
Having now read the book, I can confidently agree that the Ozolith's manipulator was likely a planeswalker, who seems to be abe to use people's own motivations to bend and twist them to his will. Unsure whom it was but probably someone whose narration we havn't seen before.
Edit: I was confused on Jirina's comment to Viv on what to relay to Lukka if she see's him. I mean the guy's a murderer, killing hundreds if not thousands of coppercoats and civilians. Lukka's a sad little man who let his own inflexible desires and a schemer get the best of him.
Overall, I am actually a little bit disappointed, because although the writing was fairly good the worldbuilding felt a bit shallow and there are large discrepencies between the book and the cards. It's as if the people making the game product weren't aware of the author's narrative aside from a very broad sketch.
Well that is because Ikoria is based on b-movies about monsters like King Kong or Godzilla, but also on works like How to Train Your Dragon or Monster Hunter. The story exists and there can be a healthy dose of backstory tucked away somewhere, but its a backdrop to the actual star, the monster itself. Perhaps that wasn't the original intent if they had one or more sets meant to expand on Ikoria, to give it more depth, yet here we are.
Ikoria in many ways reminds me of older sets around the late 90s and early 2000s where the disconnect with the cards and the books were almost two different beasts that were side-by-side. As the stuff in the set primarily exists in this very impersonal view, a snapshot of the plane itself. While the novels and articles actually give you a more structured view of it. In that you don't need to read the books to understand, but it helps.
What I don't really like in Vivien, is how she see a divide between nature and humanity, like the latter is some strange event occuring outside nature... humanity itself is nature, uncontrolled urbanization and progress are against nature, not humanity.
To clarify the mutations on Ikora where always around (see cave paintings of the apex monsters) and I wanna say the Ozolith just had been increasing the mutation rates and aggression of the monsters so that might now settle down. Bonding with monsters is new but from hints it seems like this might have been a skill humans had/lost which let them flourish more in the past.
@worlding building being lacking- I think there are a few thing going on here and gonna use Eldraine as a foil. First I think this a is result of Ikoria getting one set and the current handling of vortho content we are getting. Before planes had to be built enough to support 3 sets/2sets worth of cards and side material such as planes getting multiple planeswalker guide, story articles and the office and side fiction. Ikoria only got one set, one novel and a walker guide and unless we get a surprise art book like War of the spark is getting this is it for seeing Ikoria. This issue can be fixed if/when we see more sets on this world and it can be fleshed out more now its basics are established. In lore this can be explained by bonders working with cities to explore and map out more since they would be safer with their monsters protection.
Two, its biggest strength is its biggest weakness in the fact Ikoria is a set about monsters that magical rapidly evolve/mutate with a wedge theme and while bottom up it draws its inspiration from the lesser know monster genre which imo ended up pretty cool. The issue those is the flavor becomes very blurred. To compare with Eldraine where if you where white aligned that often means you where a knight/citizen of Ardenvale or otherwise symbolized loyalty or being a white fae who can be helpful or harmful. In Ikoria white is mostly about the cat monsters but is a part of the dinosaur faction and the nightmare faction and said cat monsters can also mutate into members of other factions as well as it possible for the elementals and beasts to be white. This really blurs what defines each monster class and makes them all kinda blur together.
To add, Ikoria has a lot of case of what I see blueiswet philosophy where while all the colors have clear philosophies and goals they also each have elementals/primal aspects that don't 100% fit right with its philosophical such how anything water related, even if its not seeking perfection, is default blue. The cat monsters, who are mostly white, are white due to white having cats in them. While they do have forms of community pack working and such, again cats are white cuz thats a animal white gets. Going back to Eldraine this would kinda be like each of the kingdoms losing the knightly aspects and being the kingdoms of light, water ect. which loses definition.
Finally Ikiora is based on monster movies. While these are semi-well known and such, it doesn't have same power as Eldraine had with fairy tales which where drawn from hundreds of years of folklore across many european countries. The result is when you looks at Eldraine it feels a lot bigger since you have the diversity of top down cards each drawing from different sources which makes the world feel fuller. Where on Ikoria the number of top down cards and references you can make are a lot lower and ended up in similar cases of monsters v humans or monsters and humans bonding. While not saying they need more but again it loses definition somewhat and not as filled
So to sum up I think Ikoria stuffers from one getting one set with the barest outside lore and the nature of the world mutating and blurring makes it lose a lot of clear definition and feel smaller. I think simply getting more time here could help give more some definition besides the basics of what was needed for one set and one novels work of world building.
@Vivien v Garruk- Idk I have issues with Vivien being to similar to Garruk since the only difference is I *believe* Garruk does kill his hunts (though the example we saw he bonded with a monster not sure if he ended up killing it or healed it after). We only seen mono-green Garruk a few times as well, his origin story with his father being killed and him summoning beasts as an adult to kill the Sheriff who killed his dad (and he had the beasts destroy the town as well...so basically the first story we see with Vivien) and then him trying to kill Liliana after he killed one of his bonded beasts. I mean you could literally swap out Vivien out for Garruk for those stories, heck you could swap out Vivien for Garruk in this story. Also add in with Garruk retuning to being mono-green card-wise they will be really similar, thought thats a whole other issue they share with other walkers.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I finished reading the other day. It's been quite some time since I posted, but here are my thoughts for what they're worth. Where I note spoilers, I do discuss various aspects of the novel from beginning to end (not necessarily in that order).
Overall Reaction (no spoilers)
Overall, the story was fine. I enjoyed the writing. Pacing-wise, I was impressed with the beginning introduction and development of characters and relationships, but I then felt the pace really picked up after Chapter 2 or so. New characters seemed to come and go pretty quickly after the opening, so I felt the pacing was inconsistent. As an action-adventure story, it was fine; as a monster story, I found it lacking. There were plenty of monsters, but I had assumed we'd see some more classic monster clashes or tropes. This leads me to the final piece that I felt was lacking: the word "mana" did not show up once. There was nothing Magic: the Gathering about this story; it could have been set in any fantasy universe. I had expected some type of use of Magic's iconic system outside of references to Planeswalkers/Sparks.
Setting Reaction (spoilers)
Ikoria was bland. There were mysterious crystals that were somehow connected to monsters and that sprung up from the ground. The human strongholds were weakly established outside of Drannith. Vivien smartly noted how no two monsters are the same, which led me to believe that we'd learn something of how the monsters spawned, but there was no further development on this front. I didn't feel the adventurous world of Zendikar, the dangerous and awe of giant beasts from Tarkir, or the immensity of the dinosaurs from Ixalan. I suspect writing in a shared world is not easy; who knows how much the story changed from when Wexler started, or which art pieces he had to work with. The necessary lack of details were there so the story would not conflict with the card art or flavor text, but that also led to a soulless world. I think Ikoria missed the mark on worldbuilding.
Character Reaction (spoilers)
I appreciated the characters here. The pacing of the story caused Lukka's shift to be more sudden and less explored than I'd like. However, I did not anticipate him to go rogue, so that development was a good surprise. I liked the tension between Lukka and Jirina. Their morning together early on reminded me of Garth and Norreen's scene in the bath in Arena; Magic stories do not often show affection or intimate moments--not that it was as intimate as Garth and Norreen's suggestive scene, as I recall it. As the story continued, the characters seemed more and more forgettable. The deaths of Lukka's companions early on shocked me, as I felt their relationships were being fleshed out really well given the short word count. However, every other character afterward showed up for a purpose and we'd move on.
I did not read all of Vivien's trip to Ixalan. I only really know her from her brief appearances in War of the Spark and Forsaken. I liked her development on finding/protecting/knowing "home." She sided with the monsters a bit, but she was pretty vanilla, I thought.
Plot Reaction (spoilers)
The only plot reaction I'm really intrigued in, was: Who was the other Planeswalker? I was surprised to learn there was an interloper, especially with only Lukka, Vivien, and Narset spoiled as cards, so I was so excited to learn the identity. The mind contact and visions made me think of Ashiok, but we just saw them, and Vivien used a male pronoun. This does not seem the work of Tezzeret. Vivien mentions she met this Planeswalker briefly on Ravnica, so that also discounts Oko. Tibalt doesn't seem to have an interest in monsters or offering wishes. I had assumed the mysterious Planeswalker was Ob Nixilis: his own background in wanting power and destruction seems to fit, but his mutations of monsters does not seem to be an approach he would take. I am very disappointed not to learn the identity of this antagonist.
Overall, the book was worth a quick read and $4.00. I like that we're seeing a few separate stories that allow us to hover on a few different Planeswalkers after War, but the novella doesn't make me feel the need to revisit this plane any time soon.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
The only plot reaction I'm really intrigued in, was: Who was the other Planeswalker? I was surprised to learn there was an interloper, especially with only Lukka, Vivien, and Narset spoiled as cards, so I was so excited to learn the identity. The mind contact and visions made me think of Ashiok, but we just saw them, and Vivien used a male pronoun. This does not seem the work of Tezzeret. Vivien mentions she met this Planeswalker briefly on Ravnica, so that also discounts Oko. Tibalt doesn't seem to have an interest in monsters or offering wishes. I had assumed the mysterious Planeswalker was Ob Nixilis: his own background in wanting power and destruction seems to fit, but his mutations of monsters does not seem to be an approach he would take. I am very disappointed not to learn the identity of this antagonist.
One thing to note, is that word of god is the planeswalkers who got cards in War of the Spark weren't ALL the planeswalkers who were present on Ravnica, so it's entirely possible that this will be a new character we've never met before, but who was "present" on Ravnica for War of the Spark.
One thing to note, is that word of god is the planeswalkers who got cards in War of the Spark weren't ALL the planeswalkers who were present on Ravnica, so it's entirely possible that this will be a new character we've never met before, but who was "present" on Ravnica for War of the Spark.
Hmmm Oko also seems to know of Liliana, which could have been a hint to him having been through the War (if its not a new character).
This also could explains the three sets in a row we had the "new" walkers spark at the end, I was wondering at the trend but its a way to have why X character wasn't in the War.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I miss when the creative team releaseD weekly short story articles on the Mothership website every Wednesday.
I miss when they had control over the lore.
I actually miss the Gatewatch saga, which I was never an opponent of.
I miss looking forward to the lore each week. Like episodes of a TV show.
I miss arcs like Battle For Zendikar, Shadows Over Innistrad, Amonkhet and Ixalan. For example. Looking back, there have been some amazing stories in this game and from the Gatewatch era. Magic Origins was such a fond time for me too.
I miss Kelly Digges and Alison Lurhs
I miss actually longing for Theros to get similar treatment to all the other blocks that got weekly stories.
But most of all, I miss the time before Nic Kelman and his friend Greg Weisman outright annihilated this entire franchise and compromised my love and passion for it. None of this as any criticism to the author or book here, I just can’t believe where we are in general on this storyline forum, where I’ve made some of my fondest posts before. Now I don’t even have the heart to open a thread here and read it thanks to Kelman and his gaggle of goons. (No, that doesn’t include Wrexler, Kate Elliott or Sanderson)
Imagine having the brain worms to still think Weisman did anything besides accepting the job to write two novels.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
*pillow in face*
And in the walker guide she talks about she likes sky sail for their methods of avoiding monsters.
There has always been difference between cards/world building/story but this set really feels disconnected, not sure its people not working in the office or what but the different heads of the hydras aren't talking as they should be.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yeah. But otherwise, the story told in the "story" section is quite BS, especially the last two or three cards.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
While I'me sure Bonder VS Bonder conflict also occurs (my monster preying on your monster), there seems to be very little mention of any quarrels between sanctuary cities. It's as if there's an unspoken law wherein sanctuaties don't attack one another, and this is likely because they require the trade and cooperation to merely ekke out a living and any conflict between sanctuaries would jeopardize their survival. Sanctuaries have outposts as city states might have vassal communities but there doesn't seem to be any territorial competition between sanctuaties. If you manage to survive long and well enough to build permamenant dwellings then you have a right to that land.
It's strange that there is no nomadic, hunter-gatherer tribe of humans as a nomadic pattern of living would be much more flexible and adaptive to nonsentient migratory and predatory patterns than more sedentary livlihoods. The sheer amount of mutations happening on the plane is a relatively recent thing so its not as though there had been no patterns of stability to the pane's past. What do they even EAT in Lavabrink?? Do they have academics, agriculturalists and engineers?? It's also strange that civilization is only now adapting to monster threats by integrating the magic of monster-human bonding to thier societies. Granted bonding on the plane is new, but magical study certainly isn't and not all monster-human cooperation would require the same degree of intamacy (no, not that kind of intimacy) created by an eludha. Vivian manages just fine, as do countless druids and shamans throughout the multiverse.
Once again I've overanalyzing the storybuilding of a card-game geared towards people ages 12-21. Fantasy doesn't make sense if you scratch too deep beneath the surface but it's nice when it can feel immersive. I think the lore for this world was a bit rushed but I look forward to seeing it fleshed out better when we return.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
True. Skysail is nomadic, though I meant terrestrially nomadic where camps are regularly packed and moved to a new spot as opposed to being vehicles in which one lives in. Though even this is fair but I'm just surprised nomadic living is an exception rather than the rule.
Edit: cooperation or even mutual toleration need not require all parties to think highly of or even like one another. Are there any examples of wars and battles between the three major sanctuary cities?
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
This is actually my main gripe with Ikoria. The worldbuilding feels very unrefined. Ikoria has only one thing going for it and that's the monsters. Take that away and there's literally nothing of note left. Other worlds are much more robust. Take away the nyxborn from Theros and you still have a greek world with the different poleis. Take away the guilds from Ravnica and you still have a city world. Take away the egyptian flavour of Amonkhet and you still have a world that is tragically and sickenly corrupted by Bolas.
Take away the monsters and there's what? A world with crystals? That is neither a hook nor... anything.
The humans on the world also don't really fit into the whole thing either. In Zendikar the cultures were shaped by their environment from their clothing to their weapons and even architecture. Sure, you could say that the whole mutating thing is recent but A) it's still not aesthetically pleasing if you don't know the history and as such have a special connection to it (like Dominaria does) and B) in that case you really need to show hints as to what the world was before, with ruins and so on (like Dominaria does). For all intents and purposes, Ikoria has no "before state".
To add insult to injury, there's hardly any cards representing kaiju-like monsters. Not even mutate allows you to build up kaijus, because the power and toughness don't stack. It's all just a soup of creatures that exist on other worlds as well, except without any sort of defining flavour. Ikoria monsters can be anything, their unifying feature is that there is no unifying feature, which blurs the whole world even further. The only thing Ikoria wants to do with kaijus, and it doesn't even do that very well.
I must admit I wasn't a fan of Eldraine either. It felt pretty shallow as well (but not as much as Ikoria) and the fairy tale references were too often way too close to the source material to make the set not feel like a non-canon crossover. Basically what Eldraine did was what Ikoria did with its Godzilla promos, except unironically. Both sets feel very fanmade and I am worried the "one set per world" paradigm is hurting the worldbuilding much more than anticipated.
...
HAVING ALL THAT SAID, I actually really like Ikoria as a magic set. Mechanically it's probably one of my favourite sets, if not the favourite set (reserving judgement for when I actually got to play with the cards of course), but worldbuildingwise it's one of my least favourites.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I disagree. The human cultures were well built and defined, down to the specific wardrobes. We get a good sense of their culture, technology and even to a lesser degree their ideology.
Yet Lukka more closely mirrors Garruk, as both Lukka and Garruk got their revenge against a authority figure in a civilized area who murdered something they held a close connection to. Lukka and his cat, Garruk and his father.
I'm also certain Vivien Reid would hate Garruk if she met him. Garruk is a hunter for both necessity and challenge. Vivien probably would lump Garruk in with Chevill, Bane of Monsters.
I also think Vivien would hate Garruk because of what Garruk wishes to protect, a pair of human planeswalkers of nobility. Said nobility whose people choose civilization over the wilds. Likely not understanding immediately why Garruk would want to protect them.
A few cards reference wildly shifting predator-prey patterns and though I can't find a specific citation, I walked away from the set with the impression that migratory routes had become more unpredictable as well. Perhaps a terrestrial nomadic society isn't seen on Ikoria because there are no predictable patterns of behavior to base a sustainable route on? Real world nomadic cultures typically base their routes on seasonal weather patterns and the migratory (or more generally, life cycle) patterns of animals. Maybe the animals of Ikoria are just too unpredictable overall to stay one step ahead of or whatever patterns that exist are just too irregular to compensate for?
Or such settlements existed but died off quickly and long enough ago that it doesn't even bear mentioning, let alone repeating?
I don't think so, but that tends to be the case when faced with existential threats: individuals may still quarrel, but larger communities tend not to dwell on inter-community conflicts that could render them vulnerable to the existential threat. It's difficult to marshal an army to attack another settlement when virtually all resources are placed on immediate survival. Even moving armies/war machines would pose a logistical problem on this plane, so it's not surprising that there's little evidence of the sanctuaries in open conflict with one another.
The human conflict seems to be between bonders and nonbonders, which didn't leave much room for warring cities. An offhand reference to the lack of war could have gone far to further develop the world, though, in addition to clarifying things.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
If I were writing the character, I’d have had her start out anguished over the loss of her world, using the crossbow to relive memories of it, then growing the courage to explore creatures of other worlds and realizing nature is all one entity, regardless of the plane, and becoming an explorer as a means of looking to the future and seeing glimpses of her own world through others.
Instead she’s just everything you don’t want to see in other green based characters, in one character. Her stories are better off avoided.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
It's near the beginning of the book when the General and his daughter are debating the danger of Lukka's bond. It's not that mutations themselves are unheard of but rather the sheer degree and number of these mutations relative to what occurred the past.
Just finished reading the book, skipping parts I found less interesting.
Overall, I am actually a little bit disappointed, because although the writing was fairly good the worldbuilding felt a bit shallow and there are large discrepencies between the book and the cards. It's as if the people making the game product weren't aware of the author's narrative aside from a very broad sketch.
Lukka does not meet the flying cat on the parparet and throughout the book is far more dismissive of the beast than the cards depict. Sure, he feels some pain when the beast dies but that is not the reason for his wanting to invade Drannith. In his heart, Lukka just wants to return to his old life but maddenly tries to achieve that by committing himself to acts he cannot return from.
From what Maro said, we know this set was pulled from its previous slotted and planned release to the present when it as determined to make Eldraine only a single set. While I don't know if this was enough to rush the developement of its worldbuilding (Theros seems 'whole' enough aside from the lack of an actual story), I do wonder if that move had an effect.
Y'know it's funny but I'm actually beginning to miss a general central arc of some sort. I liked Eldraine but I'm not a fan of Ikoria.
Having now read the book, I can confidently agree that the Ozolith's manipulator was likely a planeswalker, who seems to be abe to use people's own motivations to bend and twist them to his will. Unsure whom it was but probably someone whose narration we havn't seen before.
Edit: I was confused on Jirina's comment to Viv on what to relay to Lukka if she see's him. I mean the guy's a murderer, killing hundreds if not thousands of coppercoats and civilians. Lukka's a sad little man who let his own inflexible desires and a schemer get the best of him.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Ikoria in many ways reminds me of older sets around the late 90s and early 2000s where the disconnect with the cards and the books were almost two different beasts that were side-by-side. As the stuff in the set primarily exists in this very impersonal view, a snapshot of the plane itself. While the novels and articles actually give you a more structured view of it. In that you don't need to read the books to understand, but it helps.
To clarify the mutations on Ikora where always around (see cave paintings of the apex monsters) and I wanna say the Ozolith just had been increasing the mutation rates and aggression of the monsters so that might now settle down. Bonding with monsters is new but from hints it seems like this might have been a skill humans had/lost which let them flourish more in the past.
@worlding building being lacking- I think there are a few thing going on here and gonna use Eldraine as a foil. First I think this a is result of Ikoria getting one set and the current handling of vortho content we are getting. Before planes had to be built enough to support 3 sets/2sets worth of cards and side material such as planes getting multiple planeswalker guide, story articles and the office and side fiction. Ikoria only got one set, one novel and a walker guide and unless we get a surprise art book like War of the spark is getting this is it for seeing Ikoria. This issue can be fixed if/when we see more sets on this world and it can be fleshed out more now its basics are established. In lore this can be explained by bonders working with cities to explore and map out more since they would be safer with their monsters protection.
Two, its biggest strength is its biggest weakness in the fact Ikoria is a set about monsters that magical rapidly evolve/mutate with a wedge theme and while bottom up it draws its inspiration from the lesser know monster genre which imo ended up pretty cool. The issue those is the flavor becomes very blurred. To compare with Eldraine where if you where white aligned that often means you where a knight/citizen of Ardenvale or otherwise symbolized loyalty or being a white fae who can be helpful or harmful. In Ikoria white is mostly about the cat monsters but is a part of the dinosaur faction and the nightmare faction and said cat monsters can also mutate into members of other factions as well as it possible for the elementals and beasts to be white. This really blurs what defines each monster class and makes them all kinda blur together.
To add, Ikoria has a lot of case of what I see blueiswet philosophy where while all the colors have clear philosophies and goals they also each have elementals/primal aspects that don't 100% fit right with its philosophical such how anything water related, even if its not seeking perfection, is default blue. The cat monsters, who are mostly white, are white due to white having cats in them. While they do have forms of community pack working and such, again cats are white cuz thats a animal white gets. Going back to Eldraine this would kinda be like each of the kingdoms losing the knightly aspects and being the kingdoms of light, water ect. which loses definition.
Finally Ikiora is based on monster movies. While these are semi-well known and such, it doesn't have same power as Eldraine had with fairy tales which where drawn from hundreds of years of folklore across many european countries. The result is when you looks at Eldraine it feels a lot bigger since you have the diversity of top down cards each drawing from different sources which makes the world feel fuller. Where on Ikoria the number of top down cards and references you can make are a lot lower and ended up in similar cases of monsters v humans or monsters and humans bonding. While not saying they need more but again it loses definition somewhat and not as filled
So to sum up I think Ikoria stuffers from one getting one set with the barest outside lore and the nature of the world mutating and blurring makes it lose a lot of clear definition and feel smaller. I think simply getting more time here could help give more some definition besides the basics of what was needed for one set and one novels work of world building.
@Vivien v Garruk- Idk I have issues with Vivien being to similar to Garruk since the only difference is I *believe* Garruk does kill his hunts (though the example we saw he bonded with a monster not sure if he ended up killing it or healed it after). We only seen mono-green Garruk a few times as well, his origin story with his father being killed and him summoning beasts as an adult to kill the Sheriff who killed his dad (and he had the beasts destroy the town as well...so basically the first story we see with Vivien) and then him trying to kill Liliana after he killed one of his bonded beasts. I mean you could literally swap out Vivien out for Garruk for those stories, heck you could swap out Vivien for Garruk in this story. Also add in with Garruk retuning to being mono-green card-wise they will be really similar, thought thats a whole other issue they share with other walkers.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Overall Reaction (no spoilers)
Overall, the story was fine. I enjoyed the writing. Pacing-wise, I was impressed with the beginning introduction and development of characters and relationships, but I then felt the pace really picked up after Chapter 2 or so. New characters seemed to come and go pretty quickly after the opening, so I felt the pacing was inconsistent. As an action-adventure story, it was fine; as a monster story, I found it lacking. There were plenty of monsters, but I had assumed we'd see some more classic monster clashes or tropes. This leads me to the final piece that I felt was lacking: the word "mana" did not show up once. There was nothing Magic: the Gathering about this story; it could have been set in any fantasy universe. I had expected some type of use of Magic's iconic system outside of references to Planeswalkers/Sparks.
Setting Reaction (spoilers)
Character Reaction (spoilers)
I did not read all of Vivien's trip to Ixalan. I only really know her from her brief appearances in War of the Spark and Forsaken. I liked her development on finding/protecting/knowing "home." She sided with the monsters a bit, but she was pretty vanilla, I thought.
Plot Reaction (spoilers)
Overall, the book was worth a quick read and $4.00. I like that we're seeing a few separate stories that allow us to hover on a few different Planeswalkers after War, but the novella doesn't make me feel the need to revisit this plane any time soon.
This also could explains the three sets in a row we had the "new" walkers spark at the end, I was wondering at the trend but its a way to have why X character wasn't in the War.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I miss when they had control over the lore.
I actually miss the Gatewatch saga, which I was never an opponent of.
I miss looking forward to the lore each week. Like episodes of a TV show.
I miss arcs like Battle For Zendikar, Shadows Over Innistrad, Amonkhet and Ixalan. For example. Looking back, there have been some amazing stories in this game and from the Gatewatch era. Magic Origins was such a fond time for me too.
I miss Kelly Digges and Alison Lurhs
I miss actually longing for Theros to get similar treatment to all the other blocks that got weekly stories.
But most of all, I miss the time before Nic Kelman and his friend Greg Weisman outright annihilated this entire franchise and compromised my love and passion for it. None of this as any criticism to the author or book here, I just can’t believe where we are in general on this storyline forum, where I’ve made some of my fondest posts before. Now I don’t even have the heart to open a thread here and read it thanks to Kelman and his gaggle of goons. (No, that doesn’t include Wrexler, Kate Elliott or Sanderson)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Nic Kelman on the other hand does concern me. He apparently hates character development and is responsible for the more questionable choices.