Blue will always rule my friend, deal with it. Frankly, I’m not ashamed to share my opinion, and I’m hardly in the minority here. The backlash is on every internet medium out there, and the Amazon reviews speak for themselves. Outsourcing the writing was polarizing, but I can’t call that a failure because Kate Elliott delivers every time. We’ve seen some good material come of it, but overall, I do prefer creative handling the material. I do hold Weisman accountable for his own writing, though.
I’m anticipating Theros and hope it will be handled by Helland, Elliott, Kelly Digges or a name we can trust. Seriously, I waited years for this resolution and I do not want to see a flop with Theros. I am still stunned they took such a risk with resolving the Bolas arc, considering the time and effort invested in cultivating it all these years, only to send it Media Mail and have it arrive shattered.
Wintermute's novels are absolute masterpieces when compared to these Weissman novels.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry for being blunt. And that is coming from a man who read literally every Magic novel ever released.
Well, I mean, I'm kind of on Pip's side with this. Wintermute's novels are bad for sure, but they're like Asylum movie bad - if you can get yourself in the right mood, you can have a lot of fun with them. WotS, more than anything else, is just boring. They're not good, but they're also not bad enough to be "so bad that it's good". Wintermute's novels can still provide some degree of entertainment value, even if it's for all the wrong reasons, which is more than can be said for WotS.
Although in all fairness, it's been a long time since I read QfK - I just remember smiling and giggling to myself all the way through it, in an "Oh my god what am I even looking at" manner, but it's entirely possible my memory sucks and/or things were just different back then, and it was just bad.
That said, I don't pin the blame entirely on Weisman - a significant chunk of it rests with the creative team who actually came up with this dross of a storyline to begin with. Weisman's novels are bad for sure, but in all fairness, he just wasn't given a whole lot to work with. Sure, he might have done a better job with it - a good enough writer can make eating a bowl of cereal compelling - but it's not like he butchered a good story, he simply failed to make the best out of a bad one.
Blue will always rule my friend, deal with it. Frankly, I’m not ashamed to share my opinion, and I’m hardly in the minority here. The backlash is on every internet medium out there, and the Amazon reviews speak for themselves. Outsourcing the writing was polarizing, but I can’t call that a failure because Kate Elliott delivers every time. We’ve seen some good material come of it, but overall, I do prefer creative handling the material. I do hold Weisman accountable for his own writing, though.
I’m anticipating Theros and hope it will be handled by Helland, Elliott, Kelly Digges or a name we can trust. Seriously, I waited years for this resolution and I do not want to see a flop with Theros. I am still stunned they took such a risk with resolving the Bolas arc, considering the time and effort invested in cultivating it all these years, only to send it Media Mail and have it arrive shattered.
I know you are not ashamed to share your opinion. You just happen to present them (mostly) in such a way that irritates me to no end - a thing I also make no secret of. In this particular case, the unnecessary avalanche of derisive words. And yeah, the outrage is there, and it is strong. I just tried to provide another pieces of puzzle to what happened and that scapegoating Weisman in such a way might not be justified.
Well, I mean, I'm kind of on Pip's side with this. Wintermute's novels are bad for sure, but they're like Asylum movie bad - if you can get yourself in the right mood, you can have a lot of fun with them. WotS, more than anything else, is just boring. They're not good, but they're also not bad enough to be "so bad that it's good". Wintermute's novels can still provide some degree of entertainment value, even if it's for all the wrong reasons, which is more than can be said for WotS.
Although in all fairness, it's been a long time since I read QfK - I just remember smiling and giggling to myself all the way through it, in an "Oh my god what am I even looking at" manner, but it's entirely possible my memory sucks and/or things were just different back then, and it was just bad.
That said, I don't pin the blame entirely on Weisman - a significant chunk of it rests with the creative team who actually came up with this dross of a storyline to begin with. Weisman's novels are bad for sure, but in all fairness, he just wasn't given a whole lot to work with. Sure, he might have done a better job with it - a good enough writer can make eating a bowl of cereal compelling - but it's not like he butchered a good story, he simply failed to make the best out of a bad one.
Hah, I see your point, but to be honest, I have never found anything even remotely funny in that novels. I cannot even consider them a guilty pleasure (even Legions and Scourge qualified for this a bit), they are just BAD. The only worse book than Wintermute's would be probably Prophecy.
Considering the last paragraph - yes, Wizards as a whole bit a larger piece than they were realistically able to chew, unless they approached it in wholly different way - more time, more writers, better and more detailed story supervision...
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Currently having more fun reading Teeth & Quest. I'm not saying Wintermute's novels aren't trashy, but Weissman's MTG novels make the other trash look better.
Im fine with Chandra being bi in the future, but I always hated Chandra/Nissa shipping. They had no chemistry,and the only thing their relationship offered was being a lesbian relationship. A lot of that comes from Nissa being boring as hell though, so there's no reason that Chandra can't be shipped with another woman down the road and have it actually work (and they really should keep her bi).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Wintermute's novels are absolute masterpieces when compared to these Weissman novels.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry for being blunt. And that is coming from a man who read literally every Magic novel ever released.
Well, I mean, I'm kind of on Pip's side with this. Wintermute's novels are bad for sure, but they're like Asylum movie bad - if you can get yourself in the right mood, you can have a lot of fun with them. WotS, more than anything else, is just boring. They're not good, but they're also not bad enough to be "so bad that it's good". Wintermute's novels can still provide some degree of entertainment value, even if it's for all the wrong reasons, which is more than can be said for WotS.
Although in all fairness, it's been a long time since I read QfK - I just remember smiling and giggling to myself all the way through it, in an "Oh my god what am I even looking at" manner, but it's entirely possible my memory sucks and/or things were just different back then, and it was just bad.
That said, I don't pin the blame entirely on Weisman - a significant chunk of it rests with the creative team who actually came up with this dross of a storyline to begin with. Weisman's novels are bad for sure, but in all fairness, he just wasn't given a whole lot to work with. Sure, he might have done a better job with it - a good enough writer can make eating a bowl of cereal compelling - but it's not like he butchered a good story, he simply failed to make the best out of a bad one.
Thing is we don't know what was in the draft and what was the authors add on unless they speak on it. For the Bolas story Elliot talked about how she was the one who finalized Bolas and Ugin being twin brothers and came up with the frame story on Tarkir where the draft just said Bolas and Ugin where twins in some sense but not locked in as brothers and told Elliot they needed a frame story where we learn Bolas's past but is effected by unreliable narrators. For Gathering Storm Hekara was created by Wexler and Rat (and I'm guessing the plot point of Kaya taking Rat with her between planes) was made Weisman who also was the one who made the choice of de-aging Teyo and made him the new comer pov character. With Sanderson they basically let him make Childern of the Nameless and Davriel whole cloth with just the basic of outline of where they needed "future mono-black walker" for set in the future (which I'm guessing was War of the Spark).
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Its not what people were hoping in an apology, but it confirms much more about him being hamstrung. Essentially it was doomed from the start with Nissa and Chandra. They were never truly meant to be together, the possible romance forever baiting the readers.
As them actually being in a romantic relationship is not what the company WotC or the publisher Del Rey wanted, but Greg did. That when it came to Forsaken, he was given a mandate to break them up. Along with being asked to rewrite chapter seventy-three until it met their approval.
And what he says redeems Forsaken a little, even if its just for the single chapter of seventy-three.
Thing is we don't know what was in the draft and what was the authors add on unless they speak on it. For the Bolas story Elliot talked about how she was the one who finalized Bolas and Ugin being twin brothers and came up with the frame story on Tarkir where the draft just said Bolas and Ugin where twins in some sense but not locked in as brothers and told Elliot they needed a frame story where we learn Bolas's past but is effected by unreliable narrators. For Gathering Storm Hekara was created by Wexler and Rat (and I'm guessing the plot point of Kaya taking Rat with her between planes) was made Weisman who also was the one who made the choice of de-aging Teyo and made him the new comer pov character. With Sanderson they basically let him make Childern of the Nameless and Davriel whole cloth with just the basic of outline of where they needed "future mono-black walker" for set in the future (which I'm guessing was War of the Spark).
This is true, and we know that Weisman must have had some level of creative input, since we know that at the very least, Dack's death was his doing. But I don't even mean those smaller details - I'm talking about the larger story and the majority of the major major beats within it. I doubt it was Weisman's decision to have it be all about Bolas, one of the single least compelling villains I've ever had the displeasure of reading (and I'm a guy who is immediately interested in anything if it features dragons). I doubt it was Weisman's decision to shoehorn in a "heroic sacrifice" because the formula demanded it, regardless of whether or not it made sense for this story. I doubt it was Weisman's decision to try and paint Liliana sympathetically despite the fact that I want her to die now more than ever.
and yes i'm fully aware that i'm letting my personal feelings about the story get in the way please thank you
Its not what people were hoping in an apology, but it confirms much more about him being hamstrung. Essentially it was doomed from the start with Nissa and Chandra. They were never truly meant to be together, the possible romance forever baiting the readers.
As them actually being in a romantic relationship is not what the company WotC or the publisher Del Rey wanted, but Greg did. That when it came to Forsaken, he was given a mandate to break them up. Along with being asked to rewrite chapter seventy-three until it met their approval.
And what he says redeems Forsaken a little, even if its just for the single chapter of seventy-three.
In all honesty, the whole Chandra situation absolutely reeked of executive meddling, so I'm really not surprised at this. And from what I've seen, a lot of people were at WotC's throat about it more than Weisman's, so I'm sure it doesn't come as a huge surprise to most.
Its not what people were hoping in an apology, but it confirms much more about him being hamstrung. Essentially it was doomed from the start with Nissa and Chandra. They were never truly meant to be together, the possible romance forever baiting the readers.
As them actually being in a romantic relationship is not what the company WotC or the publisher Del Rey wanted, but Greg did. That when it came to Forsaken, he was given a mandate to break them up. Along with being asked to rewrite chapter seventy-three until it met their approval.
And what he says redeems Forsaken a little, even if its just for the single chapter of seventy-three.
If anything, the fact that WotC planned this some time in advance and let us all believe it was going to happen anyway, only makes it all the more so a case of queerbaiting. What on earth were they doing except deliberately stringing us along? For what, the cheap drama of it? Because they thought for some ******* reason this would count for any kind of meaningful representation? I expected better.
But this does help Greg Weisman's case for not being a homophobe at least.
I'm frankly disgusted by the reaction of some of the community. I have seen people attacking Weisman under his tweets saying he is a "crap writer" and a "terrible person overall". People claiming "freedom of speech" and "right to voice their disagreement" as an apology to behave like stupid jerks bashing the author in a rude and arrogant way. People writing below every single status and tweet repeating tirades about Chandra and Nissa.
I mean, his works are not a masterpiece. But I quite enjoyed and appreciated threading the old lore into Forsaken - for example, the cameo of Myc Zunich, or senator Nhillosh, the pro tem Grand Arbiter of the Azorius - that one is taken directly from Dissension. That alone are hints that he frigging tried to respect the old things. Or his representation of Teysa Karlov, that was by all means more truthful to the original character of Cory Herndon that when Doug Beyer wrote her in The Secretist.
When I started with Magic lore, I was a student of about eighteen. Now I am almost forty father of two. I had many gripes with the storyline along the years, many pages of heated discussion. Maybe it all mellowed me a bit, taught me to appreciate small things, but I still do not understand and loathe these people insulting the writer, full of empty self-entitlement, behaving like kids...
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Hell hath no fury like a shipper scorned. Sure there are good elements in the book I will give you that, but one needs to be careful with character romances.
Nobody talks about Zahid being in the book for example, a minor genie character with a card. Yet people will talk about the breakup of that one romance in particular. That its the unfortunate negative reputation that the book has earned. Especially if its true from the writer that there was no internal plans to actually make the pair a couple to begin with and that what he did was essentially ripping off the band aid. So nobody really wins.
Are the shippers wrong for thinking like this? Some yes, others no. For the majority, the romance originally blooming was just something pleasant, something to keep their interest as they wanted to see more cozy moments of the pair together.
For the vocal minority, its a mix of some form of the prior group who are understandably unhappy with the development. However the rest are ones who wanted it as a tool for their agendas. The rude ones can be minority or majority.
And its not a small crowd either who just enjoys romance stories, as there is an entire genre of fiction that tends to sell well for the previously stated reasons. Conflicts can happen in a romance story, the couple not seeing eye to eye or external forces at work, but the best ones are of love enduring despite the setbacks. Is it unrealistic? To an extent yes, but its also what people crave. As what is often being sold is that romantic escapism.
Even the deconstruction of the "happily ever after" ending has felt like its overstayed its welcome as its less interesting to the average person and also feels quiet overplayed.
So when the novel's reputation is "couple immediately have a falling out and eventually breakup after getting together at the end of previous book" that is what happens when a writer plays with that kind of fire. And its not just for the LGBT romances. Such a reputation can form from the breakup of a straight couple as well or a straight pair of characters that were hinted at forming a romantic relationship, but it never happening instead.
Hopefully that helps you understand some of the underlying elements at play when it comes to that topic at hand.
I'm frankly disgusted by the reaction of some of the community. I have seen people attacking Weisman under his tweets saying he is a "crap writer" and a "terrible person overall". People claiming "freedom of speech" and "right to voice their disagreement" as an apology to behave like stupid jerks bashing the author in a rude and arrogant way. People writing below every single status and tweet repeating tirades about Chandra and Nissa.
People goes crazy about shipping. I really couldn't care any less, but there are many out there that watch shows just to see which character could be put in a relationship together (a lot of times without caring if they are straight, homo or queer). They'll put romance in the story even when there isn't. Putting a romance in a story is always a bad thing, because there will be someone who'll be rubbed the wrong way. Magic did a smart thing in the past not putting romance in its story (or keeping it a minimum, like Gerrard and Hannah).
I'm frankly disgusted by the reaction of some of the community. I have seen people attacking Weisman under his tweets saying he is a "crap writer" and a "terrible person overall". People claiming "freedom of speech" and "right to voice their disagreement" as an apology to behave like stupid jerks bashing the author in a rude and arrogant way. People writing below every single status and tweet repeating tirades about Chandra and Nissa.
People goes crazy about shipping. I really couldn't care any less, but there are many out there that watch shows just to see which character could be put in a relationship together (a lot of times without caring if they are straight, homo or queer). They'll put romance in the story even when there isn't. Putting a romance in a story is always a bad thing, because there will be someone who'll be rubbed the wrong way. Magic did a smart thing in the past not putting romance in its story (or keeping it a minimum, like Gerrard and Hannah).
Even intentional ones have pitfalls based on the views of a writer.
A little infamous one was Spiderman's One More Day. The writer believed that Peter Park being married to Mary Jane meant the story couldn't grow and would also result in accessibility of the character, so the best plan to him was to break them up. That way Peter Parker was more relatable as a high schooler entering college, effectively resetting his character. It didn't matter that the fans were unhappy about this development of a character they grew attached to, the person who had the control wanted Peter Parker to be in other relationships. Marvel Comics would years later admit that One More Day was basically a travesty as it ruined characters that had been built up over several years.
And its not just the shippers look for ships in a story when there isn't clearly one, which can be called a "crack-ship" in which the pair is so awfully matched. There is also the audience intended one which can also get horribly mangled in the process.
So no, putting a romance in a story isn't the bad thing by itself. Magic was also doing just fine with the Vraska x Jace story with writers who cared about the characters being in a happy relationship. Then it started falling apart with War of the Spark.
I personally hate romance being shoved into stories that aren't about romance. It sometimes seems like writers think that throwing in romantic relationships is the only way they can make us care about their characters or the overall story, but I can honestly not recall a single thing I've ever read/watched/played/whatever where I've legitimately cared about whatever romance has been shoved in. I've never once thought "Man I really hope those characters get together" or "Wow their romantic relationship is really on the rocks, I wonder if it'll survive this new development".
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an inherently bad thing, I just wish it'd stopped being used as a cheap "Care about these characters now" button.
I'm frankly disgusted by the reaction of some of the community. I have seen people attacking Weisman under his tweets saying he is a "crap writer" and a "terrible person overall". People claiming "freedom of speech" and "right to voice their disagreement" as an apology to behave like stupid jerks bashing the author in a rude and arrogant way. People writing below every single status and tweet repeating tirades about Chandra and Nissa.
Online harassment is a serious problem— especially the way it follows erratic trends of whatever's the latest and greatest thing to bash on, as in this case, but not all forms of outspoken strongly-worded criticism constitute harassment. When you're dealing with an issue like this that concerns questions of actual bigotry, a certain amount of intensity is called for. This isn't just a matter of creative disagreement, it's a very real moral, social and political one. Even if the specific consequences here aren't very big, it's a very meaningful thing to a lot of people and for good reason. I'm sure there's more than a few people stepping over the line, but what do you expect? I'd honestly rather that happen than the response be muted and ineffectual.
I mean, his works are not a masterpiece. But I quite enjoyed and appreciated threading the old lore into Forsaken - for example, the cameo of Myc Zunich, or senator Nhillosh, the pro tem Grand Arbiter of the Azorius - that one is taken directly from Dissension. That alone are hints that he frigging tried to respect the old things. Or his representation of Teysa Karlov, that was by all means more truthful to the original character of Cory Herndon that when Doug Beyer wrote her in The Secretist.
That doesn't really have anything to do with whether harassment is justified.
When I started with Magic lore, I was a student of about eighteen. Now I am almost forty father of two. I had many gripes with the storyline along the years, many pages of heated discussion. Maybe it all mellowed me a bit, taught me to appreciate small things, but I still do not understand and loathe these people insulting the writer, full of empty self-entitlement, behaving like kids...
People in gaming communities can definitely get quite self-entitled about things being specifically to their liking, but it's definitely not self-entitled to want WotC to live up to their own promises about positive, meaningful representation of marginalized groups, as far that applies to this issue.
I personally hate romance being shoved into stories that aren't about romance. It sometimes seems like writers think that throwing in romantic relationships is the only way they can make us care about their characters or the overall story, but I can honestly not recall a single thing I've ever read/watched/played/whatever where I've legitimately cared about whatever romance has been shoved in. I've never once thought "Man I really hope those characters get together" or "Wow their romantic relationship is really on the rocks, I wonder if it'll survive this new development".
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an inherently bad thing, I just wish it'd stopped being used as a cheap "Care about these characters now" button.
Which I get, there is a few others like a person having a dog so it forces the audience to care more.
I think the more silly thing is writers seem to have it down pat the ability to build up a romance, but then when the characters are finally in a relationship, the writers tend to flounder about and are unsure where to take it from there.
I think the more silly thing is writers seem to have it down pat the ability to build up a romance, but then when the characters are finally in a relationship, the writers tend to flounder about and are unsure where to take it from there.
Oh, absolutely. Easy to write a dramatic buildup because it has clear narrative arc to work with and significant emotional payoff. Stable relationships not so much.
I'm frankly disgusted by the reaction of some of the community. I have seen people attacking Weisman under his tweets saying he is a "crap writer" and a "terrible person overall". People claiming "freedom of speech" and "right to voice their disagreement" as an apology to behave like stupid jerks bashing the author in a rude and arrogant way. People writing below every single status and tweet repeating tirades about Chandra and Nissa.
Online harassment is a serious problem— especially the way it follows erratic trends of whatever's the latest and greatest thing to bash on, as in this case, but not all forms of outspoken strongly-worded criticism constitute harassment. When you're dealing with an issue like this that concerns questions of actual bigotry, a certain amount of intensity is called for. This isn't just a matter of creative disagreement, it's a very real moral, social and political one. Even if the specific consequences here aren't very big, it's a very meaningful thing to a lot of people and for good reason. I'm sure there's more than a few people stepping over the line, but what do you expect? I'd honestly rather that happen than the response be muted and ineffectual.
"not all forms of outspoken strongly-worded criticism constitute harassment." - I am not saying that ALL FORMS constitute harassment. I have seen people voiced their opinions strongly, but politely. And I have seen lunatic id*ots screaming blue murder and throwing c*ap on WotC and the writer.
I mean, his works are not a masterpiece. But I quite enjoyed and appreciated threading the old lore into Forsaken - for example, the cameo of Myc Zunich, or senator Nhillosh, the pro tem Grand Arbiter of the Azorius - that one is taken directly from Dissension. That alone are hints that he frigging tried to respect the old things. Or his representation of Teysa Karlov, that was by all means more truthful to the original character of Cory Herndon that when Doug Beyer wrote her in The Secretist.
That doesn't really have anything to do with whether harassment is justified.
I am just commenting on what I liked on the book. Some people are just over-the-top with their pitchforks and torches' crusade for Weisman, . Just look at Jenrik's silly post bubbling to the brim with strong words. Does it not look laughable to you? To me, definitely.
When I started with Magic lore, I was a student of about eighteen. Now I am almost forty father of two. I had many gripes with the storyline along the years, many pages of heated discussion. Maybe it all mellowed me a bit, taught me to appreciate small things, but I still do not understand and loathe these people insulting the writer, full of empty self-entitlement, behaving like kids...
People in gaming communities can definitely get quite self-entitled about things being specifically to their liking, but it's definitely not self-entitled to want WotC to live up to their own promises about positive, meaningful representation of marginalized groups, as far that applies to this issue.
I am just saying that this problem was, from my point of view, blown to unbelievable proportions, and many of the people engaged in it just lost themselves in their "holy wrath" along the way. That's all I say to the topic.
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I think the more silly thing is writers seem to have it down pat the ability to build up a romance, but then when the characters are finally in a relationship, the writers tend to flounder about and are unsure where to take it from there.
This is sadly common in all types of writing, particularly in longform types of media like serialized novels and television. Writers frequently write themselves into a corner because "happy/stable relationships are boring" and inject conflict, usually from outside forces. Honestly, it's lazy writing and though I've just come to expect it I do not find it interesting or excusable. If I'm being brutally honest, I think it says a lot about writers that they seem unable to make fictional relationships interesting without contrived drama. Which isn't to say that fictional relationships can't have any conflict (irl relationships - even the stable, happy ones - certainly do), but that conflict ought to be character-driven and not based on contrivance because the writer doesn't know what to do with writing stable relationships.
It's not even about romance being done badly, I just think that not every story needs it. Call me crazy, but I feel like Magic's story should be more about big crazy wizard fights and less about who wants to smooch who.
It's not even about romance being done badly, I just think that not every story needs it. Call me crazy, but I feel like Magic's story should be more about big crazy wizard fights and less about who wants to smooch who.
it doesn’t have to be either or. These are people. It’s expected that they’d have dimension. Sexuality is a facet of being a whole, believable character. If anything, it’s awkward when that aspect is completely absent or unacknowledged. As if the character can’t exist in any reality beyond serving the exact trajectory of the overarching plot.
That's exactly what I meant, though. Not every story needs to throw around every facet of existence. Characters can be rounded and believable without having to resort to listing the people they want to cuddle. Besides, it doesn't need to be completely absent - there can be hints of it here and there without making it a major point. And even if it is entirely absent, I find it far less awkward when sexuality is unacknowledged than I do when it's thrown into a story that doesn't need it. If it's entirely absent I don't even think about it. I never find myself thinking "Why don't these characters ever think about doinking each other?" when it isn't there.
Also something to chew on, the other things on why the breakup seems really rough:
1) Nissa already lost most of her own people, The Joraga, who were her actual kith and kin. Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
2) The Tajuru elves of Zendikar, where she met with their leader and learned to love music with Hiba (Tajuru musician) got retconned out when they retconned her lore for Origins.
3) The Lorwyn elves who she previously visisted on her planeswalking adventures, even got really well along with as she even dabbled in their black-side of magic. Now that got retconned so she had a falling out with them and would find their use of black magic abhorrent.
4) Her literal first love, Chandra, got retconned. As Chandra would rather be with men than her.
Her culture and people? Dead.
Her friend from the Tajuru? Nonexistent.
Her friendship with the Lorwyn elves? Dissolved.
Her first love? Rejected.
All of it from retcons.
3/4s of those aspects that were retconned? They were also from Wintermute's Novel "In the Teeth of Akoum". Sure its not a great novel, but the alternative that we get to live with is far more awful.
As they want ways to grow Nissa's character? How about focusing on how much loss, isolation, betrayal, and rejection she has actually experienced. All of it when away from her truest friend: Ashaya. Which is an elemental who is a fragment of the world soul of Zendikar. Oh and everytime she left Zendikar, a world that she is trying to help regrow and by extension spend time with Ashaya, it wound up in pain. Sometimes immediate, sometimes very delayed like with Chandra. Using the novel Forsaken, she doesn't want to leave Zendikar again or be involved in helping any other planes.
That even the first person who she fell in love with and professed her love to, they lost interest in her within a single week.
This is such a magnitude level of messed-up that I don't think anyone was even thinking about when it came to writing and retconning Nissa's story.
Also something to chew on, the other things on why the breakup seems really rough:
1) Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
When was that retconed?
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
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I’m anticipating Theros and hope it will be handled by Helland, Elliott, Kelly Digges or a name we can trust. Seriously, I waited years for this resolution and I do not want to see a flop with Theros. I am still stunned they took such a risk with resolving the Bolas arc, considering the time and effort invested in cultivating it all these years, only to send it Media Mail and have it arrive shattered.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Although in all fairness, it's been a long time since I read QfK - I just remember smiling and giggling to myself all the way through it, in an "Oh my god what am I even looking at" manner, but it's entirely possible my memory sucks and/or things were just different back then, and it was just bad.
That said, I don't pin the blame entirely on Weisman - a significant chunk of it rests with the creative team who actually came up with this dross of a storyline to begin with. Weisman's novels are bad for sure, but in all fairness, he just wasn't given a whole lot to work with. Sure, he might have done a better job with it - a good enough writer can make eating a bowl of cereal compelling - but it's not like he butchered a good story, he simply failed to make the best out of a bad one.
I know you are not ashamed to share your opinion. You just happen to present them (mostly) in such a way that irritates me to no end - a thing I also make no secret of. In this particular case, the unnecessary avalanche of derisive words. And yeah, the outrage is there, and it is strong. I just tried to provide another pieces of puzzle to what happened and that scapegoating Weisman in such a way might not be justified.
Hah, I see your point, but to be honest, I have never found anything even remotely funny in that novels. I cannot even consider them a guilty pleasure (even Legions and Scourge qualified for this a bit), they are just BAD. The only worse book than Wintermute's would be probably Prophecy.
Considering the last paragraph - yes, Wizards as a whole bit a larger piece than they were realistically able to chew, unless they approached it in wholly different way - more time, more writers, better and more detailed story supervision...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Thing is we don't know what was in the draft and what was the authors add on unless they speak on it. For the Bolas story Elliot talked about how she was the one who finalized Bolas and Ugin being twin brothers and came up with the frame story on Tarkir where the draft just said Bolas and Ugin where twins in some sense but not locked in as brothers and told Elliot they needed a frame story where we learn Bolas's past but is effected by unreliable narrators. For Gathering Storm Hekara was created by Wexler and Rat (and I'm guessing the plot point of Kaya taking Rat with her between planes) was made Weisman who also was the one who made the choice of de-aging Teyo and made him the new comer pov character. With Sanderson they basically let him make Childern of the Nameless and Davriel whole cloth with just the basic of outline of where they needed "future mono-black walker" for set in the future (which I'm guessing was War of the Spark).
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKRpQpGU0AARU3l?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
Its not what people were hoping in an apology, but it confirms much more about him being hamstrung. Essentially it was doomed from the start with Nissa and Chandra. They were never truly meant to be together, the possible romance forever baiting the readers.
As them actually being in a romantic relationship is not what the company WotC or the publisher Del Rey wanted, but Greg did. That when it came to Forsaken, he was given a mandate to break them up. Along with being asked to rewrite chapter seventy-three until it met their approval.
And what he says redeems Forsaken a little, even if its just for the single chapter of seventy-three.
and yes i'm fully aware that i'm letting my personal feelings about the story get in the way please thank you
In all honesty, the whole Chandra situation absolutely reeked of executive meddling, so I'm really not surprised at this. And from what I've seen, a lot of people were at WotC's throat about it more than Weisman's, so I'm sure it doesn't come as a huge surprise to most.
If anything, the fact that WotC planned this some time in advance and let us all believe it was going to happen anyway, only makes it all the more so a case of queerbaiting. What on earth were they doing except deliberately stringing us along? For what, the cheap drama of it? Because they thought for some ******* reason this would count for any kind of meaningful representation? I expected better.
But this does help Greg Weisman's case for not being a homophobe at least.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I mean, his works are not a masterpiece. But I quite enjoyed and appreciated threading the old lore into Forsaken - for example, the cameo of Myc Zunich, or senator Nhillosh, the pro tem Grand Arbiter of the Azorius - that one is taken directly from Dissension. That alone are hints that he frigging tried to respect the old things. Or his representation of Teysa Karlov, that was by all means more truthful to the original character of Cory Herndon that when Doug Beyer wrote her in The Secretist.
When I started with Magic lore, I was a student of about eighteen. Now I am almost forty father of two. I had many gripes with the storyline along the years, many pages of heated discussion. Maybe it all mellowed me a bit, taught me to appreciate small things, but I still do not understand and loathe these people insulting the writer, full of empty self-entitlement, behaving like kids...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Nobody talks about Zahid being in the book for example, a minor genie character with a card. Yet people will talk about the breakup of that one romance in particular. That its the unfortunate negative reputation that the book has earned. Especially if its true from the writer that there was no internal plans to actually make the pair a couple to begin with and that what he did was essentially ripping off the band aid. So nobody really wins.
Are the shippers wrong for thinking like this? Some yes, others no. For the majority, the romance originally blooming was just something pleasant, something to keep their interest as they wanted to see more cozy moments of the pair together.
For the vocal minority, its a mix of some form of the prior group who are understandably unhappy with the development. However the rest are ones who wanted it as a tool for their agendas. The rude ones can be minority or majority.
And its not a small crowd either who just enjoys romance stories, as there is an entire genre of fiction that tends to sell well for the previously stated reasons. Conflicts can happen in a romance story, the couple not seeing eye to eye or external forces at work, but the best ones are of love enduring despite the setbacks. Is it unrealistic? To an extent yes, but its also what people crave. As what is often being sold is that romantic escapism.
Even the deconstruction of the "happily ever after" ending has felt like its overstayed its welcome as its less interesting to the average person and also feels quiet overplayed.
So when the novel's reputation is "couple immediately have a falling out and eventually breakup after getting together at the end of previous book" that is what happens when a writer plays with that kind of fire. And its not just for the LGBT romances. Such a reputation can form from the breakup of a straight couple as well or a straight pair of characters that were hinted at forming a romantic relationship, but it never happening instead.
Hopefully that helps you understand some of the underlying elements at play when it comes to that topic at hand.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
People goes crazy about shipping. I really couldn't care any less, but there are many out there that watch shows just to see which character could be put in a relationship together (a lot of times without caring if they are straight, homo or queer). They'll put romance in the story even when there isn't. Putting a romance in a story is always a bad thing, because there will be someone who'll be rubbed the wrong way. Magic did a smart thing in the past not putting romance in its story (or keeping it a minimum, like Gerrard and Hannah).
A little infamous one was Spiderman's One More Day. The writer believed that Peter Park being married to Mary Jane meant the story couldn't grow and would also result in accessibility of the character, so the best plan to him was to break them up. That way Peter Parker was more relatable as a high schooler entering college, effectively resetting his character. It didn't matter that the fans were unhappy about this development of a character they grew attached to, the person who had the control wanted Peter Parker to be in other relationships. Marvel Comics would years later admit that One More Day was basically a travesty as it ruined characters that had been built up over several years.
And its not just the shippers look for ships in a story when there isn't clearly one, which can be called a "crack-ship" in which the pair is so awfully matched. There is also the audience intended one which can also get horribly mangled in the process.
So no, putting a romance in a story isn't the bad thing by itself. Magic was also doing just fine with the Vraska x Jace story with writers who cared about the characters being in a happy relationship. Then it started falling apart with War of the Spark.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an inherently bad thing, I just wish it'd stopped being used as a cheap "Care about these characters now" button.
Online harassment is a serious problem— especially the way it follows erratic trends of whatever's the latest and greatest thing to bash on, as in this case, but not all forms of outspoken strongly-worded criticism constitute harassment. When you're dealing with an issue like this that concerns questions of actual bigotry, a certain amount of intensity is called for. This isn't just a matter of creative disagreement, it's a very real moral, social and political one. Even if the specific consequences here aren't very big, it's a very meaningful thing to a lot of people and for good reason. I'm sure there's more than a few people stepping over the line, but what do you expect? I'd honestly rather that happen than the response be muted and ineffectual.
That doesn't really have anything to do with whether harassment is justified.
People in gaming communities can definitely get quite self-entitled about things being specifically to their liking, but it's definitely not self-entitled to want WotC to live up to their own promises about positive, meaningful representation of marginalized groups, as far that applies to this issue.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I think the more silly thing is writers seem to have it down pat the ability to build up a romance, but then when the characters are finally in a relationship, the writers tend to flounder about and are unsure where to take it from there.
Oh, absolutely. Easy to write a dramatic buildup because it has clear narrative arc to work with and significant emotional payoff. Stable relationships not so much.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
"not all forms of outspoken strongly-worded criticism constitute harassment." - I am not saying that ALL FORMS constitute harassment. I have seen people voiced their opinions strongly, but politely. And I have seen lunatic id*ots screaming blue murder and throwing c*ap on WotC and the writer.
I am just commenting on what I liked on the book. Some people are just over-the-top with their pitchforks and torches' crusade for Weisman, . Just look at Jenrik's silly post bubbling to the brim with strong words. Does it not look laughable to you? To me, definitely.
I am just saying that this problem was, from my point of view, blown to unbelievable proportions, and many of the people engaged in it just lost themselves in their "holy wrath" along the way. That's all I say to the topic.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
This is sadly common in all types of writing, particularly in longform types of media like serialized novels and television. Writers frequently write themselves into a corner because "happy/stable relationships are boring" and inject conflict, usually from outside forces. Honestly, it's lazy writing and though I've just come to expect it I do not find it interesting or excusable. If I'm being brutally honest, I think it says a lot about writers that they seem unable to make fictional relationships interesting without contrived drama. Which isn't to say that fictional relationships can't have any conflict (irl relationships - even the stable, happy ones - certainly do), but that conflict ought to be character-driven and not based on contrivance because the writer doesn't know what to do with writing stable relationships.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
1) Nissa already lost most of her own people, The Joraga, who were her actual kith and kin. Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
2) The Tajuru elves of Zendikar, where she met with their leader and learned to love music with Hiba (Tajuru musician) got retconned out when they retconned her lore for Origins.
3) The Lorwyn elves who she previously visisted on her planeswalking adventures, even got really well along with as she even dabbled in their black-side of magic. Now that got retconned so she had a falling out with them and would find their use of black magic abhorrent.
4) Her literal first love, Chandra, got retconned. As Chandra would rather be with men than her.
Her culture and people? Dead.
Her friend from the Tajuru? Nonexistent.
Her friendship with the Lorwyn elves? Dissolved.
Her first love? Rejected.
All of it from retcons.
As they want ways to grow Nissa's character? How about focusing on how much loss, isolation, betrayal, and rejection she has actually experienced. All of it when away from her truest friend: Ashaya. Which is an elemental who is a fragment of the world soul of Zendikar. Oh and everytime she left Zendikar, a world that she is trying to help regrow and by extension spend time with Ashaya, it wound up in pain. Sometimes immediate, sometimes very delayed like with Chandra. Using the novel Forsaken, she doesn't want to leave Zendikar again or be involved in helping any other planes.
That even the first person who she fell in love with and professed her love to, they lost interest in her within a single week.
This is such a magnitude level of messed-up that I don't think anyone was even thinking about when it came to writing and retconning Nissa's story.
When was that retconed?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"