Well, I hope they adress the Calix issue in time, because if the reason he can planeswalk is "it's his destiny" (aka "Klothys' magic did it"), then between this and Kaya's buddy-walking, this sets a dangerous precedent. Planeswalking was restricted for a reason and now we get two exceptions in short time for no reason at all. Why not simply say Calix is Klothys' demigod and he was actually a planeswalker who never sparked in life? Bam, problem solved, but no, we gotta dilute the _one_ hard rule in magic, because reasons. [/rant]
Also Phenax was mortal once too, idk if they will expand on that but as Kruphix said maybe Phenax himself might have forgot this fact himself.
To take it a step further, the way myths and Nyx influence each other on Theros, Phenax may have become a mortal prior to his ascension retroactively, which is really weird if you think about it, but it makes sense when considering how Theros works.
I doubt Ashiok is going to be closely affiliated with Phyrexia. At best Ashiok might become some sort of satellite. Their two themes just clash. Ashiok is all about dreams and nightmares while phyrexia is the most material faction in all of magic. They have no spirits, no elementals, nothing that is incorporeal or anything, it's just very consistently metal and sinews. (Which is probably the main reason why they have such trouble grasping the idea of sparks.)
Well, I hope they adress the Calix issue in time, because if the reason he can planeswalk is "it's his destiny" (aka "Klothys' magic did it"), then between this and Kaya's buddy-walking, this sets a dangerous precedent. Planeswalking was restricted for a reason and now we get two exceptions in short time for no reason at all. Why not simply say Calix is Klothys' demigod and he was actually a planeswalker who never sparked in life? Bam, problem solved, but no, we gotta dilute the _one_ hard rule in magic, because reasons. [/rant]
Also Phenax was mortal once too, idk if they will expand on that but as Kruphix said maybe Phenax himself might have forgot this fact himself.
To take it a step further, the way myths and Nyx influence each other on Theros, Phenax may have become a mortal prior to his ascension retroactively, which is really weird if you think about it, but it makes sense when considering how Theros works.
I doubt Ashiok is going to be closely affiliated with Phyrexia. At best Ashiok might become some sort of satellite. Their two themes just clash. Ashiok is all about dreams and nightmares while phyrexia is the most material faction in all of magic. They have no spirits, no elementals, nothing that is incorporeal or anything, it's just very consistently metal and sinews. (Which is probably the main reason why they have such trouble grasping the idea of sparks.)
There’s more too it to why we know we’re going back to new phyrexia
In the forsaken lore Karn, Tenerife and Ajani are all going there for karns plan
And it’s once again boosted chances because ashiok wants to learn about phyrexians what better than going to either new phyrexia or dominaria for information
They're made of flesh. Curiously like the Amonkhet gods they have a form of pseudo-devotion, so the actual question is why they're not gods aside from the mechanics perspective.
Ok, so this is only a theory, but I suspect that the titans are generated by the plane itself, they seem to have more in common with the primordial greek gods than the greek titans or olympians: Incarnations of nature itself that are more than simple elementals. Nature's wrath, nature's hunger etc. Then, once sapient life began to develop on Theros, their beliefs affected Nyx, which birthed Kruphix, whose creation in turn caused a metaphysical change that allowed the other gods to come into existence through belief. And the rest is theran history.
I think this most likely the case, also goes with the lore from the first visit where they said giants (titans) where tied to the earth and somewhat elemental like.
On thing I will say s we don't know if Kruphix was in the original pantheon he himself states he doesn't know if he is the first god of horizons.
Why didn't Kruphix stop the gods from carrying out their fight against each other? He did so in Godsend with much less incentive (as far as I can remember)? On that note he is barely in the set, being mentioned once and being in an illustration once, without any card dedicated to him, which I'm quite disappointed by.
That is a very good point. Maybe he didn't want to step in since last time that was part of Xenagos plan? Or maybe he knew the outcome already and decided to let it happen?
Did the Titans escape or not? Did only the monocolored gods fight against each other? It is quite frustrating how many details we didn't quite get and how many events are only hinted at. Oh well.
I don't think the titans escaped, I think that is more so for Theros 3 story hooks.
Compressing the whole Calix story into a few sentences (with multiple battles being mentioned between him and Elspeth) makes it nearly incomprehensible. What was the fate the Klothys had thought of for Elspeth that was so important that she created an entire being to enforce it? What exactly is Calix purpose, simply returning Elspeth to Illysia? What is Calix anyway? A formerly dead human like the demigods, a nyxborn...? And of course how did he aquire a spark? There is just too much missing. Could be interesting if we get a follow-up to that.
Well, I hope they adress the Calix issue in time, because if the reason he can planeswalk is "it's his destiny" (aka "Klothys' magic did it"), then between this and Kaya's buddy-walking, this sets a dangerous precedent. Planeswalking was restricted for a reason and now we get two exceptions in short time for no reason at all. Why not simply say Calix is Klothys' demigod and he was actually a planeswalker who never sparked in life? Bam, problem solved, but no, we gotta dilute the _one_ hard rule in magic, because reasons. [/rant]
They have broken the rule in the past but as you said Flisch with Kaya and now this it feel less like they are trying to make the lore work with the idea stead of working the idea work in lore. You put up a very good already in lore way for Calix to be walker since it seems those in the underworld remains sparks and Calix could have been a cleric in life who just never ignited.
Another theory is that somehow Klothy was able to make Calix with a soul and spark since she knew if Elspeth escaped she could planeswalk away from the gods reach.
Also Phenax was mortal once too, idk if they will expand on that but as Kruphix said maybe Phenax himself might have forgot this fact himself.
To take it a step further, the way myths and Nyx influence each other on Theros, Phenax may have become a mortal prior to his ascension retroactively, which is really weird if you think about it, but it makes sense when considering how Theros works.[/quote]
Ugh I love to have a true and mythological history of Theros for these fun moments this world has.
I doubt Ashiok is going to be closely affiliated with Phyrexia. At best Ashiok might become some sort of satellite. Their two themes just clash. Ashiok is all about dreams and nightmares while phyrexia is the most material faction in all of magic. They have no spirits, no elementals, nothing that is incorporeal or anything, it's just very consistently metal and sinews. (Which is probably the main reason why they have such trouble grasping the idea of sparks.)
I could see Ashiok teaming up with Phyrexia simply due to the nightmares they are as beings and inspire in the people they invade, as well as what forms they might take on different worlds.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
He did predict Heliod's spear being broken. Maybe he figured out his last intervention only made things worse and allowed Heliod to bring about his own ruin.
I can totally imagine Ashiok as an ignorant Phyrexian fanboy/girl/person. Ashiok will think they're supporting Phyrexian aims, while we know from previous experience that Phyrexia will be fairly prone to screwing Ashiok over.
I doubt Ashiok is going to be closely affiliated with Phyrexia. At best Ashiok might become some sort of satellite. Their two themes just clash. Ashiok is all about dreams and nightmares while phyrexia is the most material faction in all of magic. They have no spirits, no elementals, nothing that is incorporeal or anything, it's just very consistently metal and sinews. (Which is probably the main reason why they have such trouble grasping the idea of sparks.)
There’s more too it to why we know we’re going back to new phyrexia
In the forsaken lore Karn, Tenerife and Ajani are all going there for karns plan
And it’s once again boosted chances because ashiok wants to learn about phyrexians what better than going to either new phyrexia or dominaria for information
I never said we will not go back to New Phyrexia and I never said Ashiok will not go there, but the point is that there is nothing on New Phyrexia that Ashiok wants, apart from learning more about the Phyrexians. The Phyrexians have nothing to give to Ashiok and Ashiok cannot torment the Phyrexians, which means there is no real interaction between the two. If there are any surviving mirrans left, tormenting those makes no narrative sense, because New Phyrexia is a much bigger threat and produces much more real nightmares than Ashiok could. I could see Ashiok accidentally (or carelessly) serving as a plot vehicle, allowing the Phyrexians to escape or do something else that requires the superheroes to take care of them. In this way Ashiok would be the kickoff point for the next Phyrexia arc, but not part of the main conflict.
Or maybe Ashiok fights on the side of the Mirrans (kinda), because if they go extinct there is nobody they can torment anymore.
Why didn't Kruphix stop the gods from carrying out their fight against each other? He did so in Godsend with much less incentive (as far as I can remember)? On that note he is barely in the set, being mentioned once and being in an illustration once, without any card dedicated to him, which I'm quite disappointed by.
That is a very good point. Maybe he didn't want to step in since last time that was part of Xenagos plan? Or maybe he knew the outcome already and decided to let it happen?
If I recall correctly, in original Theros block, Kruphix prevented the gods from battling each other directly, being forced to opt into proxy wars through nyxborn, which is why so many appeared at the time. This time around, the conflict started with Heliod creating a demigod to secure his power, which prompted the other gods to create demigods themselves. This time it was a proxy war from the start, which made an intervention by Kruphix unnecessary.
I suspect the titans we are seeing and the art of Klothys sealing one in Fateful End are all from the past, when they had been originally sealed. All the blurbs mention how the titans were sealed eons ago. I don't think the titans escaped at all in the current story. It's an opportunity to see what Klothys has kept sealed and depict her in action as to what she once did for Theros.
Kruphix knowing about Heliod's fate may have been why he didn't intervene. Kruphix tends to be hands off, and Heliod wasn't killed, so he may have seen this as a natural ebb and flow of power among the pantheon and a means to subdue, discipline and humble the sun god, to avoid constant outbreaks of divine warfare that he has been the root cause of consistently. Last time Kruphix penalized Purphoros, and this time it was Heliod's turn. But last time it would have involved the death of a true god at the hands of Godsend by damaging Nyx. That is more dangerous. If Heliod does die due to devotion deprivation (I hope not) it is at least a natural way for a god to be replaced, and not by rapid unnatural means like artifice that would instill doubt in the population and threaten the entire pantheon.
I resent the lack of a true story and the interaction of all the gods, the actual details, etc. Elspeth's and Daxos's reunion not being elaborated on just hurts. And with him being a Demigod and her having escaped with Erebos's gratitude, I cannot understand her incentive to planeswalk? They can finally be together. It is a happy ending for them both. Sure, her going to defeat the Phyrexians once and for all is noble, especially after nightmares in Illysia tormented her. But the article never mentioned her intentions or why she would depart Theros. We never did follow up with Daxos's mother either, sadly.
I hope Ashiok doesn't bring Phyrexian oil or Phyrexians to Theros. I like that they headed there, it's a good plot, but Theros already has so much going on, and I am tired of them destroying and vastly altering planes. There are hundreds of Greek myth characters we are missing as Legendary Creatures, we have a warring pantheon, titans, etc. Seriously just let Theros be Greek Myth world. Mess around with planes that don't have a solid identity or don't lend themselves to a deep well of source material to mine. On that note, I hope Calix doesn't taint Theros either by returning from Phyrexia or something.
The debate about Calix's spark is a bit silly. He was created by a divine entity. A god can create genuine life. Divinity on Theros is authentic. Just because Calix was created doesn't make him artificial any less than a human conceiving a mortal planeswalker child. The only difference is, he is an Enchantment Creature as opposed to just a Creature. I doubt he will have the Nyx effect off-world though. Dekella did not, for example.
And on the Dekella note, Purphoros forged Thassa a new spear. So I suppose the gods didn't derive their powers from their weapons, but the other way around. No repercussions to Thassa losing her Bident besides the obvious rep tarnish and humiliation. Although Heliod seems to have upstaged her in the embarrassment department. She seems wrathful enough to make them forget it with a wave or two, let alone her dear brother being the talk of the town these days.
Yes, but so are angels in many planes. Again, the flame-kin of Lorwyn bring precedent, but the explanation better be good because Calix is explicitly called a construct.
Yes, but so are angels in many planes. Again, the flame-kin of Lorwyn bring precedent, but the explanation better be good because Calix is explicitly called a construct.
A divine construct of a plane with genuine divinity, though.
That said, the "rule" of angels being artificial or being unable to hold a spark should be abolished. Perhaps Serra Angels were in the days of Serra and in her artificial plane. But that shouldn't extend to all angels or all planes. Same with demons and sphinxes. Angels should also be male more often, but every request feels like an uphill battle.
I was expecting a John Wick/God of War-ish story, where Elspeth gets revenge on Heliod for "killing" her, and that on her path of revenge, she unleashes the Titans on Theros and Nykthos. I guess we're getting Phyrexians then. Don't get me wrong, I like the Phyrexians as much as the next guy but I think they would have been more flavorful if they invaded Kaladesh or some other steampunk/artifact themed plane.
I resent the lack of a true story and the interaction of all the gods, the actual details, etc. Elspeth's and Daxos's reunion not being elaborated on just hurts. And with him being a Demigod and her having escaped with Erebos's gratitude, I cannot understand her incentive to planeswalk? They can finally be together. It is a happy ending for them both. Sure, her going to defeat the Phyrexians once and for all is noble, especially after nightmares in Illysia tormented her. But the article never mentioned her intentions or why she would depart Theros. We never did follow up with Daxos's mother either, sadly.
A few things, 1) while Erebos might be alright with Elspeth leaving, Calix and Klothy are not and would likely force Elspeth to remain in the underworld. 2) With Daxos as a demigod hard to say what role he now plays on Theros, even more so now the deity he serves is gone. Even if Elspeth stays on Theros they might still be separated with her forced back into the underworld. 3) Elspeth mostly likely feels guilty about everything that had happened to Daxos. He was murdered by her, unwilling turned into an Returned by her deal with Erebos and then forced into being a demigod no doubt in part by Heliods still fearing Elspeth. I could see, along with her wanting to fight phyrexia, her unable to be around Daxos and everything that has happened because of her. Since Calix is hot on trail for a while she might think that Calix and Klothy could try to use Daxos to make her give into her fate. 4) Given what she went through Elspeth herself might also not want to stay on Theros since her original motivation was to find home and peace, something I don't think she can find on Theros anymore.
Real talk thought without a story we can't say. Real world reason is so Elspeth isn't tied to one world is free to be used now as a character. Her, Teyo and the Wanderer are the only mono-white walkers around now with Ajani being sometimes mono-white and Nahiri seemly fully RW now. They needed more and Elspeth is already a popular character with who is easier to market who was the main character in the non-gatewatch member story in the early post mending story.
The debate about Calix's spark is a bit silly. He was created by a divine entity. A god can create genuine life. Divinity on Theros is authentic. Just because Calix was created doesn't make him artificial any less than a human conceiving a mortal planeswalker child. The only difference is, he is an Enchantment Creature as opposed to just a Creature. I doubt he will have the Nyx effect off-world though. Dekella did not, for example.
Except again thats not set up if nyxborn are true or constructed life. I've said before but it could be similar to the elder dragons where its true with spark holding soul but again without details its a rule break. Again it feels like they are bending the lore to the idea instead of making the idea work through the established lore.
Yes, but so are angels in many planes. Again, the flame-kin of Lorwyn bring precedent, but the explanation better be good because Calix is explicitly called a construct.
A divine construct of a plane with genuine divinity, though.
That said, the "rule" of angels being artificial or being unable to hold a spark should be abolished. Perhaps Serra Angels were in the days of Serra and in her artificial plane. But that shouldn't extend to all angels or all planes. Same with demons and sphinxes. Angels should also be male more often, but every request feels like an uphill battle.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Seems a lot more likely that Ashiok accidentally slips up and they lose their spark. Either way though I think we're not going to actually see phyrexians for another year or two. Right now the story line seems to mostly just be place setting for future events. Elspeth is out, maybe she wants to take on phyrexia so she looks for allies and bumps into the gatewatch after asking around and hearing who defeated the eldrazi. They fight, then team up. Calix is there too, questioning his destiny. Ashiok inadvertently communicates across planes through nightmares, indicating that the phyrexians captured them and are about to remove their spark. Bada bing bada boom the timetable gets rushed and the gatewatch + karn draws emrakul to eat the plane, karn giving up his life to do so. Seems pretty pat.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
I don't want to completely derail things, but this is the classic "technically true but misses the whole point of the complaint" argument. It's meaningless and dismissive, please don't be doing it.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
I don't want to completely derail things, but this is the classic "technically true but misses the whole point of the complaint" argument. It's meaningless and dismissive, please don't be doing it.
Then don't bring up the topic with a troll version of what the facts are.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
I don't want to completely derail things, but this is the classic "technically true but misses the whole point of the complaint" argument. It's meaningless and dismissive, please don't be doing it.
Then don't bring up the topic with a troll version of what the facts are.
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
Then we got four walkers who where born human with Sorin, Tibalt, Arlinn and Ob. Arlinn is a odd case as the theme of werewolves duality of being human and beasts so like the letter Y I sometimes count her.
So that totals up 21/55 which is ~38%, if you wanna discount the born humans thats 17/55 which is ~30%.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
:/
I also don't know anyone who actively wants nonhumans who would be honestly satisfied with someone like Nissa or Nahiri. Call them what you want, I'm never going to look at a human with off-colour skin or a mild prosthetic and think "Yes, this is exactly what I was after". If your character can disguise themselves as a human by putting on a hat, they're not nonhuman.
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
:/
I also don't know anyone who actively wants nonhumans who would be honestly satisfied with someone like Nissa or Nahiri. Call them what you want, I'm never going to look at a human with off-colour skin or a mild prosthetic and think "Yes, this is exactly what I was after". If your character can disguise themselves as a human by putting on a hat, they're not nonhuman.
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
A totally reasonable request right there right? Not even factoring in that walkers races need to be intelligent enough to forms a society which monsters don't normally tend to do (see why no hydra walker (yet)).
I do understand however while feelings do have a place in a discussion people are confusing feelings for facts and running with that instead of looking what been going on. The whole non-human thing has several part all related but different so I'll address them;
1) "All the walkers are mostly human or where human" mostly where my list comes from and to point out, while subjective on how many should be there ~ 30-40% of the current walkers on cards are non-human.
2) "Wizard doesn't make any new non-human walkers" again not true looking over the new walker they made such as Angrath and Dovin.
3) "Non-Humans are sidelined in the story" Thats a different topic and somewhat true to a degree IMO. As said the main 5 gatewatch got overwhelming spotlight and we have now seen them trying to expand outside of them. However you could said this for many of the other non- gatewatch 5 members. And of note Bolas, Vraska and Nissa have had major story arcs and/or been featured. And while related the walker characters on the story aren't tied to the cards fully anymore. Shouldn't matter if most walkers are human if the non-humans are getting featured in story.
This is a gross-overly simplify version of whats their reasoning. Humans have harder time empathizing with things that we deem the "other" or what ever we don't see as the "norm". This is't something Maro is making up this is a theory that been seen in media design and psychology. With non-human designs the farther away from human feature (eyes and other facial ones being big), body types (four limbs, bipedal) and even with taxonomy with us favoring mammals over lizard and bird and those over bugs, fish, squids, ect. Add on human features and traits to a being and its easier for humans to empathize with it, remove human traits and features and it makes it seem more monstrous and harder to empathize with. Alien movies have been doing this with years with its designs. This why humans have been irrationally afraid of things like spiders over a bear or a snake over a mountain lion. Add in magic lore is primly told through static art and and written mediums. This makes it harder to communicate the character to the average player. Given we are getting netflix shows and arena gives the walkers voices lines (helping humanizing the non-humans) this might lead to non-human getting moe popular.
This all seems pretty reasonable to me but the replies to this either are "Thats just made up marketing talk" or "I'm not the average person and thus don't feel what the average player wants" or rants each time a human walker is shown instead. And those are the remarks I tend to reply not those saying in general wanting more non-humans Big difference between;
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
and not "Well I love angels and would like to see one even thought non-humans aren't as popular and an angel would need a lore hoop to jump through".
And related but more so personal to you;
5) "Elves, Kor, Vampiren ect aren't non-human enough" well agree to disagree I feel like appearances since the only thing to show if something is human. While I see your point with Nahiri and kor and other magic original races, I've said before things like elves, vampires and dwarfs have mythological, pop cultural and genre related bias on not being human or being a perversion of humans traits. Not saying you can't ask for "monstrous" but understand this your personal line of non-human isn't not only not just what magic goes by but the genre and human folklore. Funny this thing also started over talks of an angel walker which you wound't have been thrilled with for non-humans walker.
Personally I just like seeing fun new walkers human or non-human but imo human representing and demographics are more important (and to wizards more sellable) than non-humans and wizard need to still work on how they are representing human demographics.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
:/
I also don't know anyone who actively wants nonhumans who would be honestly satisfied with someone like Nissa or Nahiri. Call them what you want, I'm never going to look at a human with off-colour skin or a mild prosthetic and think "Yes, this is exactly what I was after". If your character can disguise themselves as a human by putting on a hat, they're not nonhuman.
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
A totally reasonable request right there right? Not even factoring in that walkers races need to be intelligent enough to forms a society which monsters don't normally tend to do (see why no hydra walker (yet)).
Again, I must point out that I am not the one who said this. Pay attention to who you're quoting before you try to pin someone else's words on me.
I do understand however while feelings do have a place in a discussion people are confusing feelings for facts and running with that instead of looking what been going on. The whole non-human thing has several part all related but different so I'll address them;
1) "All the walkers are mostly human or where human" mostly where my list comes from and to point out, while subjective on how many should be there ~ 30-40% of the current walkers on cards are non-human.
2) "Wizard doesn't make any new non-human walkers" again not true looking over the new walker they made such as Angrath and Dovin.
I agree, there do exist a good chunk of nonhuman planeswalker cards. This is fact, no one can argue it. That's why the complaint is less about existence and more about relevance - it's real hard to be excited about the umpteen billionth human-centric story just because we had that one minotaur on that one card.
3) "Non-Humans are sidelined in the story" Thats a different topic and somewhat true to a degree IMO. As said the main 5 gatewatch got overwhelming spotlight and we have now seen them trying to expand outside of them. However you could said this for many of the other non- gatewatch 5 members. And of note Bolas, Vraska and Nissa have had major story arcs and/or been featured. And while related the walker characters on the story aren't tied to the cards fully anymore. Shouldn't matter if most walkers are human if the non-humans are getting featured in story.
I guess this is where our main source of disagreement comes from, because it's not a different topic - it is the topic I argue.
This is a gross-overly simplify version of whats their reasoning. Humans have harder time empathizing with things that we deem the "other" or what ever we don't see as the "norm". This is't something Maro is making up this is a theory that been seen in media design and psychology. With non-human designs the farther away from human feature (eyes and other facial ones being big), body types (four limbs, bipedal) and even with taxonomy with us favoring mammals over lizard and bird and those over bugs, fish, squids, ect. Add on human features and traits to a being and its easier for humans to empathize with it, remove human traits and features and it makes it seem more monstrous and harder to empathize with. Alien movies have been doing this with years with its designs. This why humans have been irrationally afraid of things like spiders over a bear or a snake over a mountain lion. Add in magic lore is primly told through static art and and written mediums. This makes it harder to communicate the character to the average player. Given we are getting netflix shows and arena gives the walkers voices lines (helping humanizing the non-humans) this might lead to non-human getting moe popular.
Aside from, again, this is not something I said, I feel like I must correct something else here, because it's another very common misconception. I do not deny, nor have I ever denied, that those who prefer nonhumans are in the minority. Trust me, that could not possibly be more clear. I started playing Magic back in 2000 - Prophecy was my first set - and even before that point, I was already fully aware of the fact that I was in the minority here. You don't need to say it, because the world itself makes it entirely clear. There is absolutely nothing that you, Maro, or anyone else can say, in the clearest and most specific language on Earth, that could possibly make that clearer. I do not claim otherwise, never have, and never will.
What I do claim is that the human bias is not nearly as all-consuming as it's made out to be. Pop culture is absolutely rife with examples of nonhuman characters that appeal to all sorts of different people (to quote a wise philosopher, "No one would like Mickey Mouse if he was Mickey Dude"). Even though I am fully aware that people, in general, prefer humans, I don't believe for a second that that means they're against nonhumans. I fully believe that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the audience would be absolutely fine with seeing a nonhuman protagonist every once in a while. Keywords there being "every once in a while" - I do not expect to be catered to all the time. Once every few years, especially when combined with some more relevant side-characters in the meantime, would do absolute wonders, while, again, the human-loving majority would still be perfectly fine with it. I believe this is even more true when you consider that Magic fans are in all likelihood fantasy fans in general, who are even more accepting of such "weird" things. You can prefer chocolate while still liking vanilla.
This all seems pretty reasonable to me but the replies to this either are "Thats just made up marketing talk" or "I'm not the average person and thus don't feel what the average player wants" or rants each time a human walker is shown instead. And those are the remarks I tend to reply not those saying in general wanting more non-humans Big difference between;
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
and not "Well I love angels and would like to see one even thought non-humans aren't as popular and an angel would need a lore hoop to jump through".
Same points as above.
And related but more so personal to you;
5) "Elves, Kor, Vampiren ect aren't non-human enough" well agree to disagree I feel like appearances since the only thing to show if something is human. While I see your point with Nahiri and kor and other magic original races, I've said before things like elves, vampires and dwarfs have mythological, pop cultural and genre related bias on not being human or being a perversion of humans traits. Not saying you can't ask for "monstrous" but understand this your personal line of non-human isn't not only not just what magic goes by but the genre and human folklore. Funny this thing also started over talks of an angel walker which you wound't have been thrilled with for non-humans walker.
I agree that it's a personal line, but my point is that it's a line that is likely shared by many who want to see more nonhumans, which is why pointing out things like that is not nearly as helpful as you think. Even if you disagree, surely it's not hard to see where someone's coming from when they say that "human with funny ears" isn't exactly satisfying their desire for nonhumans.
And by the by, I'm not saying that they can't have elf, dwarf, kor, vampire, or whatever else. Of course they can. I'm saying that this "variety" of "it's basically just a human except for one very minor detail" is not satisfying to someone who actively wants more nonhumans. I wouldn't mind these "basically human" races if they were mixed in with more actual nonhumans.
I'm also not saying that they need to be completely monstrous. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few more monstrous ones, but yeah, I know the difficulty. But there's a happy medium in between "basically human" and "alien jellyfish". More Ajani, less Nahiri. More viashino, less dwarf.
I also hear people say, in defence of the basically-humans, "Well it's their unique mindsets/experiences/lifestyles/whatever which make them interestingly nonhuman". I know you didn't say this, but it is something I want to address. First of all, it often isn't actually the case. MtG elves (and Magic is far from the only property to do this, and elves are far from the only race to do this, but we're using it as an example) aren't typically "uniquely elven" - they often take a mindset which could be entirely applicable to a regular human, but decide that's just how elves feel. No, I don't believe that Nissa's mindset couldn't apply to any old human. I don't expect them to create a completely nonhuman and alien mindset for them - that's basically impossible after all - but it doesn't make it any less true that this "uniquely elven mindset" is typically anything but.
The second point is that physical appearance does matter. After all, if it didn't, then where's the problem in making more obviously nonhuman-looking characters in the first place?
Personally I just like seeing fun new walkers human or non-human but imo human representing and demographics are more important (and to wizards more sellable) than non-humans and wizard need to still work on how they are representing human demographics.
I mean, yeah, I see that. I'm not saying representing human diversity isn't important. I think the bigger problem is their seeming complete reluctance to give our crowd what we're asking for. Whenever they're asked for some sort of human representation, they say "Absolutely" - as very well they should, I'm not at all implying it should be otherwise - although I do think there's a lot more to it than Wizards says, but that's a whole other topic entirely (fantasy uses allegory and metaphor all the time, even when it isn't intentional - if someone finds themselves relating to a particular nonhuman character, or even a whole race, who never gets to be in the spotlight because only the preferred majority are allowed to be heroes, you can see how that could cause issues). But whenever someone asks for nonhumans, we're met with "Nah nobody wants to see that" or "There are already plenty, see -points to The List-". If we were at least allowed to have some hope - something a bit more than the vaguest possible "Maybe at some distance point in the future if all the planets align but really no" - it would go a long way.
Again, I must point out that I am not the one who said this. Pay attention to who you're quoting before you try to pin someone else's words on me.
I'm simply pointing out the "polite request" for non-humans you say I'm being dismissive towards and the reason you felt like going this off topic.
I do understand however while feelings do have a place in a discussion people are confusing feelings for facts and running with that instead of looking what been going on. The whole non-human thing has several part all related but different so I'll address them;
1) "All the walkers are mostly human or where human" mostly where my list comes from and to point out, while subjective on how many should be there ~ 30-40% of the current walkers on cards are non-human.
2) "Wizard doesn't make any new non-human walkers" again not true looking over the new walker they made such as Angrath and Dovin.
I agree, there do exist a good chunk of nonhuman planeswalker cards. This is fact, no one can argue it. That's why the complaint is less about existence and more about relevance - it's real hard to be excited about the umpteen billionth human-centric story just because we had that one minotaur on that one card.
Most of the complaints through this form was centered on the number of walkers.
3) "Non-Humans are sidelined in the story" Thats a different topic and somewhat true to a degree IMO. As said the main 5 gatewatch got overwhelming spotlight and we have now seen them trying to expand outside of them. However you could said this for many of the other non- gatewatch 5 members. And of note Bolas, Vraska and Nissa have had major story arcs and/or been featured. And while related the walker characters on the story aren't tied to the cards fully anymore. Shouldn't matter if most walkers are human if the non-humans are getting featured in story.
I guess this is where our main source of disagreement comes from, because it's not a different topic - it is the topic I argue.
Which is new for this forum, again most people haven't complained about the story they complained about again the number of human walkers.
This is a gross-overly simplify version of whats their reasoning. Humans have harder time empathizing with things that we deem the "other" or what ever we don't see as the "norm". This is't something Maro is making up this is a theory that been seen in media design and psychology. With non-human designs the farther away from human feature (eyes and other facial ones being big), body types (four limbs, bipedal) and even with taxonomy with us favoring mammals over lizard and bird and those over bugs, fish, squids, ect. Add on human features and traits to a being and its easier for humans to empathize with it, remove human traits and features and it makes it seem more monstrous and harder to empathize with. Alien movies have been doing this with years with its designs. This why humans have been irrationally afraid of things like spiders over a bear or a snake over a mountain lion. Add in magic lore is primly told through static art and and written mediums. This makes it harder to communicate the character to the average player. Given we are getting netflix shows and arena gives the walkers voices lines (helping humanizing the non-humans) this might lead to non-human getting moe popular.
Aside from, again, this is not something I said, I feel like I must correct something else here, because it's another very common misconception. I do not deny, nor have I ever denied, that those who prefer nonhumans are in the minority. Trust me, that could not possibly be more clear. I started playing Magic back in 2000 - Prophecy was my first set - and even before that point, I was already fully aware of the fact that I was in the minority here. You don't need to say it, because the world itself makes it entirely clear. There is absolutely nothing that you, Maro, or anyone else can say, in the clearest and most specific language on Earth, that could possibly make that clearer. I do not claim otherwise, never have, and never will.
What I do claim is that the human bias is not nearly as all-consuming as it's made out to be. Pop culture is absolutely rife with examples of nonhuman characters that appeal to all sorts of different people (to quote a wise philosopher, "No one would like Mickey Mouse if he was Mickey Dude"). Even though I am fully aware that people, in general, prefer humans, I don't believe for a second that that means they're against nonhumans. I fully believe that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the audience would be absolutely fine with seeing a nonhuman protagonist every once in a while. Keywords there being "every once in a while" - I do not expect to be catered to all the time. Once every few years, especially when combined with some more relevant side-characters in the meantime, would do absolute wonders, while, again, the human-loving majority would still be perfectly fine with it. I believe this is even more true when you consider that Magic fans are in all likelihood fantasy fans in general, who are even more accepting of such "weird" things. You can prefer chocolate while still liking vanilla.
And this maybe where you need to look at the facts and not feeling. The story have been human centered but we have seem plenty of stories and moments that focus on the non-humans. Maybe not enough to your liking but we Zendikar 2, Kaladesh, Ixalan and Ravnica 3 all having non-human in the spotlight (pw and legendary creatures) with Bolas being the driving antagonist. Ask for more but don't over dramatize there isn't any.
This all seems pretty reasonable to me but the replies to this either are "Thats just made up marketing talk" or "I'm not the average person and thus don't feel what the average player wants" or rants each time a human walker is shown instead. And those are the remarks I tend to reply not those saying in general wanting more non-humans Big difference between;
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
and not "Well I love angels and would like to see one even thought non-humans aren't as popular and an angel would need a lore hoop to jump through".
Same points as above.
And related but more so personal to you;
5) "Elves, Kor, Vampiren ect aren't non-human enough" well agree to disagree I feel like appearances since the only thing to show if something is human. While I see your point with Nahiri and kor and other magic original races, I've said before things like elves, vampires and dwarfs have mythological, pop cultural and genre related bias on not being human or being a perversion of humans traits. Not saying you can't ask for "monstrous" but understand this your personal line of non-human isn't not only not just what magic goes by but the genre and human folklore. Funny this thing also started over talks of an angel walker which you wound't have been thrilled with for non-humans walker.
I agree that it's a personal line, but my point is that it's a line that is likely shared by many who want to see more nonhumans, which is why pointing out things like that is not nearly as helpful as you think. Even if you disagree, surely it's not hard to see where someone's coming from when they say that "human with funny ears" isn't exactly satisfying their desire for nonhumans.
[/quote]
Sure but "Nissa is just a human with a long ears and doesn't count" isn't helpful when the company that are the game and story is on the opposite line and unless clearly told will still use Nissa as for non-human rep. Ask for more but need to realize unless spelled out what your line you want, wizards will hear nonhuman and use character like Nissa and Nahiri.
And by the by, I'm not saying that they can't have elf, dwarf, kor, vampire, or whatever else. Of course they can. I'm saying that this "variety" of "it's basically just a human except for one very minor detail" is not satisfying to someone who actively wants more nonhumans. I wouldn't mind these "basically human" races if they were mixed in with more actual nonhumans.
I'm also not saying that they need to be completely monstrous. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few more monstrous ones, but yeah, I know the difficulty. But there's a happy medium in between "basically human" and "alien jellyfish". More Ajani, less Nahiri. More viashino, less dwarf.
Monstrous is a tabletop game term that in general is the group use for being that aren't the basic human shape and featured, so the creatures you want more of are in this category (as well as the alien jellyfishes).
I also hear people say, in defence of the basically-humans, "Well it's their unique mindsets/experiences/lifestyles/whatever which make them interestingly nonhuman". I know you didn't say this, but it is something I want to address. First of all, it often isn't actually the case. MtG elves (and Magic is far from the only property to do this, and elves are far from the only race to do this, but we're using it as an example) aren't typically "uniquely elven" - they often take a mindset which could be entirely applicable to a regular human, but decide that's just how elves feel. No, I don't believe that Nissa's mindset couldn't apply to any old human. I don't expect them to create a completely nonhuman and alien mindset for them - that's basically impossible after all - but it doesn't make it any less true that this "uniquely elven mindset" is typically anything but.
The second point is that physical appearance does matter. After all, if it didn't, then where's the problem in making more obviously nonhuman-looking characters in the first place?
And agree to disagree with that then.
Personally I just like seeing fun new walkers human or non-human but imo human representing and demographics are more important (and to wizards more sellable) than non-humans and wizard need to still work on how they are representing human demographics.
I mean, yeah, I see that. I'm not saying representing human diversity isn't important. I think the bigger problem is their seeming complete reluctance to give our crowd what we're asking for. Whenever they're asked for some sort of human representation, they say "Absolutely" - as very well they should, I'm not at all implying it should be otherwise - although I do think there's a lot more to it than Wizards says, but that's a whole other topic entirely (fantasy uses allegory and metaphor all the time, even when it isn't intentional - if someone finds themselves relating to a particular nonhuman character, or even a whole race, who never gets to be in the spotlight because only the preferred majority are allowed to be heroes, you can see how that could cause issues). But whenever someone asks for nonhumans, we're met with "Nah nobody wants to see that" or "There are already plenty, see -points to The List-". If we were at least allowed to have some hope - something a bit more than the vaguest possible "Maybe at some distance point in the future if all the planets align but really no" - it would go a long way.[/quote]
Over dramatic much? Again while personal lines and such but they have even said they made characters like Angrath and Wrenn for the people who want less humans, feel free to ask more but people also tend to very much miss things unless presented out.
So I guess to sum up feel free to feel how you want but also realize your feeling don't quite match up with what being presented.
Any who I'm done detailing the forum happy pre-release to all who went.
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To take it a step further, the way myths and Nyx influence each other on Theros, Phenax may have become a mortal prior to his ascension retroactively, which is really weird if you think about it, but it makes sense when considering how Theros works.
I doubt Ashiok is going to be closely affiliated with Phyrexia. At best Ashiok might become some sort of satellite. Their two themes just clash. Ashiok is all about dreams and nightmares while phyrexia is the most material faction in all of magic. They have no spirits, no elementals, nothing that is incorporeal or anything, it's just very consistently metal and sinews. (Which is probably the main reason why they have such trouble grasping the idea of sparks.)
There’s more too it to why we know we’re going back to new phyrexia
In the forsaken lore Karn, Tenerife and Ajani are all going there for karns plan
And it’s once again boosted chances because ashiok wants to learn about phyrexians what better than going to either new phyrexia or dominaria for information
I think this most likely the case, also goes with the lore from the first visit where they said giants (titans) where tied to the earth and somewhat elemental like.
On thing I will say s we don't know if Kruphix was in the original pantheon he himself states he doesn't know if he is the first god of horizons.
That is a very good point. Maybe he didn't want to step in since last time that was part of Xenagos plan? Or maybe he knew the outcome already and decided to let it happen?
I don't think the titans escaped, I think that is more so for Theros 3 story hooks.
[/quote]
They have broken the rule in the past but as you said Flisch with Kaya and now this it feel less like they are trying to make the lore work with the idea stead of working the idea work in lore. You put up a very good already in lore way for Calix to be walker since it seems those in the underworld remains sparks and Calix could have been a cleric in life who just never ignited.
Another theory is that somehow Klothy was able to make Calix with a soul and spark since she knew if Elspeth escaped she could planeswalk away from the gods reach.
To take it a step further, the way myths and Nyx influence each other on Theros, Phenax may have become a mortal prior to his ascension retroactively, which is really weird if you think about it, but it makes sense when considering how Theros works.[/quote]
Ugh I love to have a true and mythological history of Theros for these fun moments this world has.
I could see Ashiok teaming up with Phyrexia simply due to the nightmares they are as beings and inspire in the people they invade, as well as what forms they might take on different worlds.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
boy/girl/person. Ashiok will think they're supporting Phyrexian aims, while we know from previous experience that Phyrexia will be fairly prone to screwing Ashiok over.I never said we will not go back to New Phyrexia and I never said Ashiok will not go there, but the point is that there is nothing on New Phyrexia that Ashiok wants, apart from learning more about the Phyrexians. The Phyrexians have nothing to give to Ashiok and Ashiok cannot torment the Phyrexians, which means there is no real interaction between the two. If there are any surviving mirrans left, tormenting those makes no narrative sense, because New Phyrexia is a much bigger threat and produces much more real nightmares than Ashiok could. I could see Ashiok accidentally (or carelessly) serving as a plot vehicle, allowing the Phyrexians to escape or do something else that requires the superheroes to take care of them. In this way Ashiok would be the kickoff point for the next Phyrexia arc, but not part of the main conflict.
Or maybe Ashiok fights on the side of the Mirrans (kinda), because if they go extinct there is nobody they can torment anymore.If I recall correctly, in original Theros block, Kruphix prevented the gods from battling each other directly, being forced to opt into proxy wars through nyxborn, which is why so many appeared at the time. This time around, the conflict started with Heliod creating a demigod to secure his power, which prompted the other gods to create demigods themselves. This time it was a proxy war from the start, which made an intervention by Kruphix unnecessary.
Kruphix knowing about Heliod's fate may have been why he didn't intervene. Kruphix tends to be hands off, and Heliod wasn't killed, so he may have seen this as a natural ebb and flow of power among the pantheon and a means to subdue, discipline and humble the sun god, to avoid constant outbreaks of divine warfare that he has been the root cause of consistently. Last time Kruphix penalized Purphoros, and this time it was Heliod's turn. But last time it would have involved the death of a true god at the hands of Godsend by damaging Nyx. That is more dangerous. If Heliod does die due to devotion deprivation (I hope not) it is at least a natural way for a god to be replaced, and not by rapid unnatural means like artifice that would instill doubt in the population and threaten the entire pantheon.
I resent the lack of a true story and the interaction of all the gods, the actual details, etc. Elspeth's and Daxos's reunion not being elaborated on just hurts. And with him being a Demigod and her having escaped with Erebos's gratitude, I cannot understand her incentive to planeswalk? They can finally be together. It is a happy ending for them both. Sure, her going to defeat the Phyrexians once and for all is noble, especially after nightmares in Illysia tormented her. But the article never mentioned her intentions or why she would depart Theros. We never did follow up with Daxos's mother either, sadly.
I hope Ashiok doesn't bring Phyrexian oil or Phyrexians to Theros. I like that they headed there, it's a good plot, but Theros already has so much going on, and I am tired of them destroying and vastly altering planes. There are hundreds of Greek myth characters we are missing as Legendary Creatures, we have a warring pantheon, titans, etc. Seriously just let Theros be Greek Myth world. Mess around with planes that don't have a solid identity or don't lend themselves to a deep well of source material to mine. On that note, I hope Calix doesn't taint Theros either by returning from Phyrexia or something.
The debate about Calix's spark is a bit silly. He was created by a divine entity. A god can create genuine life. Divinity on Theros is authentic. Just because Calix was created doesn't make him artificial any less than a human conceiving a mortal planeswalker child. The only difference is, he is an Enchantment Creature as opposed to just a Creature. I doubt he will have the Nyx effect off-world though. Dekella did not, for example.
And on the Dekella note, Purphoros forged Thassa a new spear. So I suppose the gods didn't derive their powers from their weapons, but the other way around. No repercussions to Thassa losing her Bident besides the obvious rep tarnish and humiliation. Although Heliod seems to have upstaged her in the embarrassment department. She seems wrathful enough to make them forget it with a wave or two, let alone her dear brother being the talk of the town these days.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
That said, the "rule" of angels being artificial or being unable to hold a spark should be abolished. Perhaps Serra Angels were in the days of Serra and in her artificial plane. But that shouldn't extend to all angels or all planes. Same with demons and sphinxes. Angels should also be male more often, but every request feels like an uphill battle.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
A few things, 1) while Erebos might be alright with Elspeth leaving, Calix and Klothy are not and would likely force Elspeth to remain in the underworld. 2) With Daxos as a demigod hard to say what role he now plays on Theros, even more so now the deity he serves is gone. Even if Elspeth stays on Theros they might still be separated with her forced back into the underworld. 3) Elspeth mostly likely feels guilty about everything that had happened to Daxos. He was murdered by her, unwilling turned into an Returned by her deal with Erebos and then forced into being a demigod no doubt in part by Heliods still fearing Elspeth. I could see, along with her wanting to fight phyrexia, her unable to be around Daxos and everything that has happened because of her. Since Calix is hot on trail for a while she might think that Calix and Klothy could try to use Daxos to make her give into her fate. 4) Given what she went through Elspeth herself might also not want to stay on Theros since her original motivation was to find home and peace, something I don't think she can find on Theros anymore.
Real talk thought without a story we can't say. Real world reason is so Elspeth isn't tied to one world is free to be used now as a character. Her, Teyo and the Wanderer are the only mono-white walkers around now with Ajani being sometimes mono-white and Nahiri seemly fully RW now. They needed more and Elspeth is already a popular character with who is easier to market who was the main character in the non-gatewatch member story in the early post mending story.
Except again thats not set up if nyxborn are true or constructed life. I've said before but it could be similar to the elder dragons where its true with spark holding soul but again without details its a rule break. Again it feels like they are bending the lore to the idea instead of making the idea work through the established lore.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Then don't bring up the topic with a troll version of what the facts are.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
Then we got four walkers who where born human with Sorin, Tibalt, Arlinn and Ob. Arlinn is a odd case as the theme of werewolves duality of being human and beasts so like the letter Y I sometimes count her.
So that totals up 21/55 which is ~38%, if you wanna discount the born humans thats 17/55 which is ~30%.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
:/
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.
A totally reasonable request right there right? Not even factoring in that walkers races need to be intelligent enough to forms a society which monsters don't normally tend to do (see why no hydra walker (yet)).
I do understand however while feelings do have a place in a discussion people are confusing feelings for facts and running with that instead of looking what been going on. The whole non-human thing has several part all related but different so I'll address them;
1) "All the walkers are mostly human or where human" mostly where my list comes from and to point out, while subjective on how many should be there ~ 30-40% of the current walkers on cards are non-human.
2) "Wizard doesn't make any new non-human walkers" again not true looking over the new walker they made such as Angrath and Dovin.
3) "Non-Humans are sidelined in the story" Thats a different topic and somewhat true to a degree IMO. As said the main 5 gatewatch got overwhelming spotlight and we have now seen them trying to expand outside of them. However you could said this for many of the other non- gatewatch 5 members. And of note Bolas, Vraska and Nissa have had major story arcs and/or been featured. And while related the walker characters on the story aren't tied to the cards fully anymore. Shouldn't matter if most walkers are human if the non-humans are getting featured in story.
4)
This is a gross-overly simplify version of whats their reasoning. Humans have harder time empathizing with things that we deem the "other" or what ever we don't see as the "norm". This is't something Maro is making up this is a theory that been seen in media design and psychology. With non-human designs the farther away from human feature (eyes and other facial ones being big), body types (four limbs, bipedal) and even with taxonomy with us favoring mammals over lizard and bird and those over bugs, fish, squids, ect. Add on human features and traits to a being and its easier for humans to empathize with it, remove human traits and features and it makes it seem more monstrous and harder to empathize with. Alien movies have been doing this with years with its designs. This why humans have been irrationally afraid of things like spiders over a bear or a snake over a mountain lion. Add in magic lore is primly told through static art and and written mediums. This makes it harder to communicate the character to the average player. Given we are getting netflix shows and arena gives the walkers voices lines (helping humanizing the non-humans) this might lead to non-human getting moe popular.
This all seems pretty reasonable to me but the replies to this either are "Thats just made up marketing talk" or "I'm not the average person and thus don't feel what the average player wants" or rants each time a human walker is shown instead. And those are the remarks I tend to reply not those saying in general wanting more non-humans Big difference between;
and not "Well I love angels and would like to see one even thought non-humans aren't as popular and an angel would need a lore hoop to jump through".
And related but more so personal to you;
5) "Elves, Kor, Vampiren ect aren't non-human enough" well agree to disagree I feel like appearances since the only thing to show if something is human. While I see your point with Nahiri and kor and other magic original races, I've said before things like elves, vampires and dwarfs have mythological, pop cultural and genre related bias on not being human or being a perversion of humans traits. Not saying you can't ask for "monstrous" but understand this your personal line of non-human isn't not only not just what magic goes by but the genre and human folklore. Funny this thing also started over talks of an angel walker which you wound't have been thrilled with for non-humans walker.
Personally I just like seeing fun new walkers human or non-human but imo human representing and demographics are more important (and to wizards more sellable) than non-humans and wizard need to still work on how they are representing human demographics.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I agree, there do exist a good chunk of nonhuman planeswalker cards. This is fact, no one can argue it. That's why the complaint is less about existence and more about relevance - it's real hard to be excited about the umpteen billionth human-centric story just because we had that one minotaur on that one card.
I guess this is where our main source of disagreement comes from, because it's not a different topic - it is the topic I argue.
Aside from, again, this is not something I said, I feel like I must correct something else here, because it's another very common misconception. I do not deny, nor have I ever denied, that those who prefer nonhumans are in the minority. Trust me, that could not possibly be more clear. I started playing Magic back in 2000 - Prophecy was my first set - and even before that point, I was already fully aware of the fact that I was in the minority here. You don't need to say it, because the world itself makes it entirely clear. There is absolutely nothing that you, Maro, or anyone else can say, in the clearest and most specific language on Earth, that could possibly make that clearer. I do not claim otherwise, never have, and never will.
What I do claim is that the human bias is not nearly as all-consuming as it's made out to be. Pop culture is absolutely rife with examples of nonhuman characters that appeal to all sorts of different people (to quote a wise philosopher, "No one would like Mickey Mouse if he was Mickey Dude"). Even though I am fully aware that people, in general, prefer humans, I don't believe for a second that that means they're against nonhumans. I fully believe that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the audience would be absolutely fine with seeing a nonhuman protagonist every once in a while. Keywords there being "every once in a while" - I do not expect to be catered to all the time. Once every few years, especially when combined with some more relevant side-characters in the meantime, would do absolute wonders, while, again, the human-loving majority would still be perfectly fine with it. I believe this is even more true when you consider that Magic fans are in all likelihood fantasy fans in general, who are even more accepting of such "weird" things. You can prefer chocolate while still liking vanilla.
Same points as above.
I agree that it's a personal line, but my point is that it's a line that is likely shared by many who want to see more nonhumans, which is why pointing out things like that is not nearly as helpful as you think. Even if you disagree, surely it's not hard to see where someone's coming from when they say that "human with funny ears" isn't exactly satisfying their desire for nonhumans.
And by the by, I'm not saying that they can't have elf, dwarf, kor, vampire, or whatever else. Of course they can. I'm saying that this "variety" of "it's basically just a human except for one very minor detail" is not satisfying to someone who actively wants more nonhumans. I wouldn't mind these "basically human" races if they were mixed in with more actual nonhumans.
I'm also not saying that they need to be completely monstrous. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few more monstrous ones, but yeah, I know the difficulty. But there's a happy medium in between "basically human" and "alien jellyfish". More Ajani, less Nahiri. More viashino, less dwarf.
I also hear people say, in defence of the basically-humans, "Well it's their unique mindsets/experiences/lifestyles/whatever which make them interestingly nonhuman". I know you didn't say this, but it is something I want to address. First of all, it often isn't actually the case. MtG elves (and Magic is far from the only property to do this, and elves are far from the only race to do this, but we're using it as an example) aren't typically "uniquely elven" - they often take a mindset which could be entirely applicable to a regular human, but decide that's just how elves feel. No, I don't believe that Nissa's mindset couldn't apply to any old human. I don't expect them to create a completely nonhuman and alien mindset for them - that's basically impossible after all - but it doesn't make it any less true that this "uniquely elven mindset" is typically anything but.
The second point is that physical appearance does matter. After all, if it didn't, then where's the problem in making more obviously nonhuman-looking characters in the first place?
I mean, yeah, I see that. I'm not saying representing human diversity isn't important. I think the bigger problem is their seeming complete reluctance to give our crowd what we're asking for. Whenever they're asked for some sort of human representation, they say "Absolutely" - as very well they should, I'm not at all implying it should be otherwise - although I do think there's a lot more to it than Wizards says, but that's a whole other topic entirely (fantasy uses allegory and metaphor all the time, even when it isn't intentional - if someone finds themselves relating to a particular nonhuman character, or even a whole race, who never gets to be in the spotlight because only the preferred majority are allowed to be heroes, you can see how that could cause issues). But whenever someone asks for nonhumans, we're met with "Nah nobody wants to see that" or "There are already plenty, see -points to The List-". If we were at least allowed to have some hope - something a bit more than the vaguest possible "Maybe at some distance point in the future if all the planets align but really no" - it would go a long way.
I'm simply pointing out the "polite request" for non-humans you say I'm being dismissive towards and the reason you felt like going this off topic.
Most of the complaints through this form was centered on the number of walkers.
Which is new for this forum, again most people haven't complained about the story they complained about again the number of human walkers.
And this maybe where you need to look at the facts and not feeling. The story have been human centered but we have seem plenty of stories and moments that focus on the non-humans. Maybe not enough to your liking but we Zendikar 2, Kaladesh, Ixalan and Ravnica 3 all having non-human in the spotlight (pw and legendary creatures) with Bolas being the driving antagonist. Ask for more but don't over dramatize there isn't any.
[/quote]
Sure but "Nissa is just a human with a long ears and doesn't count" isn't helpful when the company that are the game and story is on the opposite line and unless clearly told will still use Nissa as for non-human rep. Ask for more but need to realize unless spelled out what your line you want, wizards will hear nonhuman and use character like Nissa and Nahiri.
Monstrous is a tabletop game term that in general is the group use for being that aren't the basic human shape and featured, so the creatures you want more of are in this category (as well as the alien jellyfishes).
And agree to disagree with that then.
I mean, yeah, I see that. I'm not saying representing human diversity isn't important. I think the bigger problem is their seeming complete reluctance to give our crowd what we're asking for. Whenever they're asked for some sort of human representation, they say "Absolutely" - as very well they should, I'm not at all implying it should be otherwise - although I do think there's a lot more to it than Wizards says, but that's a whole other topic entirely (fantasy uses allegory and metaphor all the time, even when it isn't intentional - if someone finds themselves relating to a particular nonhuman character, or even a whole race, who never gets to be in the spotlight because only the preferred majority are allowed to be heroes, you can see how that could cause issues). But whenever someone asks for nonhumans, we're met with "Nah nobody wants to see that" or "There are already plenty, see -points to The List-". If we were at least allowed to have some hope - something a bit more than the vaguest possible "Maybe at some distance point in the future if all the planets align but really no" - it would go a long way.[/quote]
Over dramatic much? Again while personal lines and such but they have even said they made characters like Angrath and Wrenn for the people who want less humans, feel free to ask more but people also tend to very much miss things unless presented out.
So I guess to sum up feel free to feel how you want but also realize your feeling don't quite match up with what being presented.
Any who I'm done detailing the forum happy pre-release to all who went.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"