I don't know anything about Mary Sues or any stereotypes of those kind, just want to make 2 points:
1. She escaped her all life from the sin she committed, she was ashamed, she felt responsible, and when you give yourself the mask of the sinner and of the butcher, the easiest way to to suffocate your inner turmoil is becoming your mask. Because she was not brave enough to get back home and battle herself, win her own weaknesses and confront her sin. So she run, she acquired power and when it all went down the Mending, what was of her was a prideful husk that hid fairly well the grudge for herself. Then the chain veil appeared: a possible tool to save it all, to free herself and master Death itself. She hoped to abuse it, to get stronger, and even more, to get brave enough to confront everything she left behind. She freed her brother, but did not felt relieved, for she just killed him two times
2. On Ravnica we have her final step. Black means surviving and winning doing that, what she is doing is the opposite: shine through her self sacrifice. She was the woman of the shortcut, because she always used them: killed the brother, run away; getting old, demonic pact; feeling love, crush her emotions... Everything was a shortcut for her, leading to that bridge on Ravnica, enslaved by a nearly omnipotent dragon, butchering everything, and she knows no one deserves that end, maybe she wore the mask of the killer, but she still knows a sin when she sees one. She had to decide for her survival, the easy shortcut, she would just look everyone get slayed, and then keep on her life suppressing her emotions and serving the big bad guy who in the end wouldn't even need her anymore as a God. It was really an easy choice for Black, survival afterall is the aim, but the pride? She would lose it, but it wouldn't be the first time a black character lose pride. All of the shortcuts she took had the consequences of making her next choice bigger at every step, and on that bridged it's all of her life at the stake: the chain veil, the power and her immortality, all the years she spent searching for it, all the pacts she did, everything she lost and everytime she fell harder for the aim of power. But in the end it doesn't even matter. She looks at the kids dying, she looks at herself, what has become of her, she is a tool to repeat her sins. She knows what's at stake, and she refuses the prize. She decides to confront Bolas, she totally negates herself, her dying could not bring herself peace: she knows souls are eternal, she knows she could be one of those ghost mourning in pain forever, or heaven knows what Bolas could do with her soul... And still she thinks, no more. She is enraged, yes, she might be rushed, but she is not stupid, she knows what she is doing: imagine burning of your own accord, but losing behind decades of searching, decades of plotting to regain power. She throws it all and burns, not thinking of her, because otherwise she would have not chosen that path. She spent her whole life escaping from everything, gaining power, and in the end she finally confronts her sins. She is taking responsibility. I find she really is evolving. In a unexpected way, in even a non-black way, but she is really on fire.
TL/DR: she fine, she good.
P.S.:Probably an overstating, redundant review on a character which really isn't that deep? But I think this is a self sacrifice that has nothing to do with pride or ego, saving other lives does not cancel sins, and dying doing that will not make you feel better, it will just physically destroy you, but this is really subjective to me and might be wrong.
Yeah but she did that all to herself. She has no friends cause she was a monster. She is in her certain situation cause was dumb. She made a deal with Bolas and 4 Demons and didn't think it go bad?
None of her recent Heroics have been altrustic. I mean Bolas stuffed Lesherac into a time rift that doesnt make him a hero. Much like Lili isn't a hero for killing Demons to get out of a deal she doesnt like and turning on Bolas cause she doesnt like being controlled. She is not doing cause she is good she is doint it cause it helps her.
Define grossly evil cause I think what she did to Thalia was pretty gross.
A Mary Sue is the smartest person in the world. You calling her dumb proves that she isn’t a Mary Sue. Mary Sues also always save the day, and would never do anything grossly evil.
Personally I'm of the opinion she is a Villain Sue + a Sympathetic Sue in the attempt to make a Magnificent Bastard, perhaps even a touch of Jerk Sue. Which winds up with a Villain Protagonist like Liliana is.
Liliana doesn't face consequences? Are you kidding? Everything we've seen of her since Origins is her trying (and in fact failing) to deal with consequences of her previous not-so-wise life choices. Every time she tries something she ends up in more and more trouble. Enslavement to Bolas is not a sudden twist 'to progress a narrative', it was logical conclusion. Ever since the contract she fought to regain her freedom, only to lose more and more of it.
We don't know how she was before the Mending, only that she is scared senseless by the prospect of death, because she knew full well what kind of afterlife to expect. Josu was expressive and very believable while describing it. Well, that fear wasn't much of the problem back then, but after the Mending, when she neared the end of her lifespan? It made her desperate, so she found a way to postpone death at a cost of a soul (which she hardly regretted that much at the moment) and some degree of servitude to her new masters. It was mentioned that they forced her to do many things, some of which were atrocious even by her standards. So even if killing Josu did not force her to assume the mask 'I'm evil and I don't care' that certainly did. Yes, that's a *****ty defense mechanism, and no one says she is a good person in the first place, but it still was the most logical one and there were basically no other way she could use, save for suicide variants.
After that every time we see her she tries to get out of the mess she gotten herself into, and each time she fails. Her plan to barter the Consortium for Bolas' help with the pacts not only failed quite spectacularly, but also left the new weight upon her conscience (and right until Ixalan story she acted accordingly).
Then there was the Veil, and even though it helped with some of the demons, it took another piece of her freedom - an incursion directly in her mind this time. Not only that, but the price of using the Veil was so steep and the prospects of continuous use so dire, that despite all the power it brought Liliana tried to get rid of it, only to discover that the Veil has even more control of her that she thought, and she is physically unable to part with it. Some time later we see her coming to Jace for help (being proud ***** that she is, she tried quite hard to not make it look like a plea for help, though), but here the whole Gatewatch arc starts and we basically don't see Liliana on her own ever since, so her personal line got tackled behind the whole Gatewatch bussiness.
Each of her sub-stories ends up in failure. Except may be the whole Garruk thing, but it is still in the air now. She is being hunted and if she happens to survive the WAR it still can backfire horribly. I'd say, that of all Gatewatchers (save for Jace, maybe) she actually faces the most consequences. She never actually succeeds.
Also it is sweet that you expect the Gatewatch to hate her. Jace has all the reason for it, of course (and I like to think that he still wasn't thinking straight at the moment he welcomed her to join, because that was kind of silly on his part). But others? They met her when she literally put her life in line to rescue them, and then stayed with them and saved their asses again and was badly hurt in the process. Even if they knew that her motivation has nothing to do with (most of) them, they still owe her. And she didn't even do anything bad to them. It's not like she forced them to Amonkhet or Dominaria - they decided on it together, her voice was hardly deciduous. She withheld some information, yes, and planned to use their goals to advance her own, but she still acted to advance their goals too, she never betrayed them or set up a trap or the like. On Amonkhet she tried to convince them to leave with her and it was obvious they couldn't do a thing at the moment. It was a sensible thing to do and though they are rightly sour about that, they don't really have a reason to actually be mad at her.
So yes, she is not a good person, she is very flawed, she runs from herself her whole life and that is what makes her a fascinating protagonist. She isn't juvenile or insecure,her story is not along the lines of classical 'coming of age', she faces different king of problems, makes different kind of hard choices, forms different kind of relationships and needs different kind of development, and all this is wonderful, though not often well written.
We have enough unequivocally good heroes and unequivocally bad villains, it's always nice to have something different. (Though I believe her Gatewatch-era characterization was mostly a failure, unfortunately)
(Yes, I love Liliana and am totally ready to die on this hill too)
I would love to read this fanfiction that you keep mentioning, the one where Liliana is always haunted by the death of her brother and wears a mask to protect her true self. The one where because of the death of her brother she can't open to others. The one that hints that she actually might give a ***** about anybody but herself.
I'd really love someone to link it to me because, in the actual mtg story, that doesn't exist. Liliana's brother and her being haunted by her death is literally mentioned in a handful of times in Dominaria story, had 0 impact on any of her choices before Dominaria, and is never mentioned again.
Yeah but she did that all to herself. She has no friends cause she was a monster. She is in her certain situation cause was dumb. She made a deal with Bolas and 4 Demons and didn't think it go bad?
None of her recent Heroics have been altrustic. I mean Bolas stuffed Lesherac into a time rift that doesnt make him a hero. Much like Lili isn't a hero for killing Demons to get out of a deal she doesnt like and turning on Bolas cause she doesnt like being controlled. She is not doing cause she is good she is doint it cause it helps her.
Define grossly evil cause I think what she did to Thalia was pretty gross.
Your making good points on why not to like Lili, but bad points if you are trying to argue she's a Mary Sue. The very fact that her *****ty actions come back to bite her in the ass is proof against her being a Mary Sue. If bad ***** was happening to her just because, well that can happen to a Mary Sue, but since the bad ***** happening to her is demonstrably her fault, that makes her very much not Mary Sue. Because Mary Sue's don't do terrible *****, and they don't suffer any negative consequences for their actions, because they are by the definition of the trope portrayed as flawless. Lili is portrayed as a terrible person who causes 90 percent of her own problems, and is only recently even attempting to be less *****ty.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
People are aware there is different types of Mary Sue, right? That what gets commonly talked about and gets called a Mary Sue, or Gary Stu for that matter, is like the most basic understanding of it.
If the posters calling her a Mary Sue mean something else (the other things aren't other types of Mary Sue, they are riffs on the idea), then they should say it. Saying Mary Sue, and not clarify it despite making several posts, leaves the only reasonable interpretation anyone can make being that the poster is calling the character a standard Mary Sue (and further, that they don't actually know what that is). Considering the way they are complaining about Liliana, that is even more likely. Besides, the only "sue" she comes close to is a Villain Sue, but considering that her *****ty behavior typically has pretty bad consequences for her, I'm skeptical of even that. In this set
she doesn't die for her transgressions, but the only person that actually cares about her, and maybe the only person other than herself that she cares about, does. She was ready to die for him.
And of course lets not forget her plan of killing her demons to escape her contract failing miserably.
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I would love to read this fanfiction that you keep mentioning, the one where Liliana is always haunted by the death of her brother and wears a mask to protect her true self. The one where because of the death of her brother she can't open to others. The one that hints that she actually might give a ***** about anybody but herself.
I'd really love someone to link it to me because, in the actual mtg story, that doesn't exist. Liliana's brother and her being haunted by her death is literally mentioned in a handful of times in Dominaria story, had 0 impact on any of her choices before Dominaria, and is never mentioned again.
It was the foundation of her whole personality. This was established both the original webcomic and the Magic Origins short story for Liliana. It is the reason she avoids getting emotionally close to people, and the reason she is willing to take such risks to avoid death. Dominaria went deeper into exploring her feelings on the subject, showing that she actually still cares about her brother and regrets what happened to him for more than just selfish reasons, but as long as Liliana has had a backstory it has involved what happened to Josu emotionally scarring her and making her the *****y necromancer she is today.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
To be honest I think she's the only one of the Gatewatch who has actually changed. As someone who is pretty Selesnya (Selesynian?) to their core, she is probably the member I like the most. She has a lot to answer for, but it seems like she's at least willing now to try. I haven't seen many of the book spoilers, but she seems regretful throughout the trailer and seeing the children mirroring her past I think just pushed her over the edge and made her willing to sacrifice herself. I hope that we get more storyline with her maybe trying to live up to Gideon's sacrifice, maybe trying to maintain balance on Innistrad.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
I don't understand what you mean by flawless. Gideon had so much pride when he was younger, which lead to tragic arrogance.
His arrogance didn't dissipate after that either. It takes a fair amount of arrogance for him to believe he could shoe string together an effective resistance to the Eldrazi and win. Ditto vs Emrakul. Ditto vs Bolas on Amonkhet. Only recently has he shifted from always believing that he'll just succeed against all odds as long as he tries real hard because he's invincible and has moxie.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
I don't understand what you mean by flawless. Gideon had so much pride when he was younger, which lead to tragic arrogance.
His arrogance didn't dissipate after that either. It takes a fair amount of arrogance for him to believe he could shoe string together an effective resistance to the Eldrazi and win. Ditto vs Emrakul. Ditto vs Bolas on Amonkhet. Only recently has he shifted from always believing that he'll just succeed against all odds as long as he tries real hard because he's invincible and has moxie.
Except he didnt.believe he could shoestring a win over the Eldrazi. He stayed with Zendikar because he felt obligated, not out of any sense of "I got this". He was desperate for help- ANY help that he ran himself to the bone looking for it. His strategy was literally keep as many people alive as possible and pray an actual solution emerges.
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
I don't understand what you mean by flawless. Gideon had so much pride when he was younger, which lead to tragic arrogance.
His arrogance didn't dissipate after that either. It takes a fair amount of arrogance for him to believe he could shoe string together an effective resistance to the Eldrazi and win. Ditto vs Emrakul. Ditto vs Bolas on Amonkhet. Only recently has he shifted from always believing that he'll just succeed against all odds as long as he tries real hard because he's invincible and has moxie.
Except he didnt.believe he could shoestring a win over the Eldrazi. He stayed with Zendikar because he felt obligated, not out of any sense of "I got this". He was desperate for help- ANY help that he ran himself to the bone looking for it. His strategy was literally keep as many people alive as possible and pray an actual solution emerges.
The shoestring I was referring to was the Gatewatch. It was a crazy plan. There is always a fair amount of arrogance in play when someone thinks they are so indespensible that they cannot rest. Gideon has grown since then, and especially since Amonkhet.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
I don't understand what you mean by flawless. Gideon had so much pride when he was younger, which lead to tragic arrogance.
His arrogance didn't dissipate after that either. It takes a fair amount of arrogance for him to believe he could shoe string together an effective resistance to the Eldrazi and win. Ditto vs Emrakul. Ditto vs Bolas on Amonkhet. Only recently has he shifted from always believing that he'll just succeed against all odds as long as he tries real hard because he's invincible and has moxie.
Now that you mention it. I just have one minor nitpick on Gideon regarding the events in Zendikar. When they were fighting Ob Nixilis.. I remember Ob was impressed that Gideon was able to fight him. Ob then offered to stop the fight, and continue it some other time at another place. Instead of stopping.. Gideon kept attacking, when Ob managed to get the upper hand - Gideon, Jace, and Nissa ended up captured and tortured by Ob. The capture and torture could have been avoided, if Gideon had stopped when Ob offered to stop the fight.
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
I don't understand what you mean by flawless. Gideon had so much pride when he was younger, which lead to tragic arrogance.
His arrogance didn't dissipate after that either. It takes a fair amount of arrogance for him to believe he could shoe string together an effective resistance to the Eldrazi and win. Ditto vs Emrakul. Ditto vs Bolas on Amonkhet. Only recently has he shifted from always believing that he'll just succeed against all odds as long as he tries real hard because he's invincible and has moxie.
Now that you mention it. I just have one minor nitpick on Gideon regarding the events in Zendikar. When they were fighting Ob Nixilis.. I remember Ob was impressed that Gideon was able to fight him. Ob then offered to stop the fight, and continue it some other time at another place. Instead of stopping.. Gideon kept attacking, when Ob managed to get the upper hand - Gideon, Jace, and Nissa ended up captured and tortured by Ob. The capture and torture could have been avoided, if Gideon had stopped when Ob offered to stop the fight.
Yeah. And it's neat to see him change from that guy into the guy he's been since getting owned by Bolas on Amonkhet. Willing to hold back, let others take the lead, and having the humility to realize that someone else is the key to victory and that he can rest. His arrogance was always coming from a good place though, the idea that he had to right obvious wrongs, that he had great power and thus a responsibility to use it.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Liliana is not a Mary Sue at all, but there are many aspects of her characters that are just plain frustrating. I think a lot of this "Mary Sue-ness" and/or frustration comes from the fact that while she does suffer consequences, it always seems to pale in comparison to what she seems like she is going to suffer from. I'm not belittling the actual suffering she went through (in real-life terms she has it bad), but seriously when you put it beside her "main storyline presentation" which pretty much involves her appealing for help against her demon contracts and repeat it 4 times over the years, as a consumer it becomes sort of grating to the point of "maybe the demon contract ending you would be a better release for all of us here".
The Chain Veil definitely needed better buildup and as a threat-level, because after Kothophed and Griselbrand I literally gave up on Razaketh and Belzenlok even before I knew their names and by downplaying the Veil against the later two demons (and Bolas) trying to invoke Liliana's character development was a mistake. I'm not saying Liliana didn't need the development, I just felt the Veil (as a "character") really badly needed a bit more autonomy in the whole scheme of things despite its origins, because honestly the Raven Man is fighting for the same spot and they diluted each other real badly.
The Veil was supposed to be a "consequence" and it was instead used as a tool of "don't use it, use friendship instead" tug-o-war Liliana had, and while that gave her needed character development, it also diminished some expectation of consequences (and Raven Man) and coming from a character who had 4 demonic contracts, the dissonance is laughable. Call me evil, but bluntly speaking, for someone who makes mistakes of such sizes, the consequences Liliana actually suffers from is really sort of laughable in scale. Perhaps they tried to appeal to "realism link" of her suffering (since as I said in real life it would be pretty bad) but I can never get the "people get similar cases in real life, so you're telling me demonic contracts are no worse than their problems?" out of my head and it becomes sort of absurd instead.
I'm insanely tired of Liliana being a tsundere edgy emo. It's so tiresome. Most of the story elements read like a fan fiction anyway, so I'm starting to lose interest in the story as a whole. Liliana just bugs me with that tsundere attitude.
I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue per se, but that's not to say there isn't a good deal of bad writing surrounding her.
What irks me the most is that this centuries-old planeswalker and master of black magic wouldn't figure out that the all-important contract for her soul defaults to Nicky when she kills all her demons. It's supposed to make Nicol Bolas look more clever and devious than her, but honestly it just makes her look stupid and incompetent instead.
That's my main problem with the whole Nicol Bolas arc. At every turn, WotC's idea of making Nicol Bolas seem like a mastermind is to just make everyone opposing him an idiot. I'm mostly okay with that being the case for the rest of the Gatewatch, since they're all relatively new at this whole planeswalker thing. But it ends up making Liliana a very unbelievable and short-sighted character that just doesn't gel with her own lore. And then she's just overpowered instead to try to make it look like she knows what she's doing.
As is often the case most people don't actually know what a Mary Sue is, only that being one is wrong. So let's look at all the reasonable definitions of a Mary Sue.
An idealized seemingly perfect character. You start off with "other than her flaws she's perfect" so it's hard to even start. She doesn't trust others and shouldn't be trusted. This alone is enough to mark off this troupe.
An author insert character. Very much a no as she was created as a troupe, just not this troupe.
An individual whom can perform feats beyond what their background settings imply. Her background settings come equipped with a deus ex that is meant to solve her problems when her normal powers can't. So...no but only on the technicality that they gave her a truly broken background.
Generally the best and loved by all. Nope, not even close. She was heading there but then she messed up with Chandra on Kaladesh and Jace got his memories back. So only Gideon even likes her a little and he is the quintessential "I like and trust everyone" character.
Upstages the protagonist. Again a hard nope. She was saved when she was the protagonist on Innistrad and didnt upstage anyone on Kaladesh or Amonkeht.
Poorly developed character lacking in realism. This is close. But she underwent actual character development in Dominaria and might undergo further in Rav so I'd say no again.
So with Lily failing to meet a single definition of a Mary Sue I find is impossible to agree with the premise that she is in fact a Mary Sue.
+1
Exactly. People shouldn't start pointing out Mary Sues just because thats the vanilla thing to hate on this month or year.
That just takes away all the meaning.
Used the Mary Sue Litmus Test, even checked boxes sparingly unless it directly fit with her, also followed the instructions to a 'T', still got a score of 76 though. Which is in the 50+ category and means the character is considered a "Mary Sue". To me shes just a Villain Sue. Which based on the OSP video, is basically the easiest of the bunch to get away with because Villains are already over the top characters anyway.
Used the Mary Sue Litmus Test, even checked boxes sparingly unless it directly fit with her, also followed the instructions to a 'T', still got a score of 76 though. Which is in the 50+ category and means the character is considered a "Mary Sue". To me shes just a Villain Sue. Which based on the OSP video, is basically the easiest of the bunch to get away with because Villains are already over the top characters anyway.
I got a 14. I'm not sure how you could get a 76.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Used the Mary Sue Litmus Test, even checked boxes sparingly unless it directly fit with her, also followed the instructions to a 'T', still got a score of 76 though. Which is in the 50+ category and means the character is considered a "Mary Sue". To me shes just a Villain Sue. Which based on the OSP video, is basically the easiest of the bunch to get away with because Villains are already over the top characters anyway.
I got a 14. I'm not sure how you could get a 76.
Death of lover (Gideon) and and death of a friend (Josu), special artifact (3 of 6 boxes ticked), born into nobility, powerful magics, settles for the with most handsome person in the group, spared by an other-wise ruthless villian and grants her asylum, makes mistakes which cause death to others, has a mental psychological disorder, enhanced via tattoos and enjoys their life more for such improvements, has been in fights but has no scars, clothing that makes her look sexy or badass, major villian has a personal obession/fixation on them (Nicol Bolas), strange thing that happened to them in their childhood (Raven Man), character needs help with past problems and other characters make time out of their schedule for them, character has a one of a kind jewelry that is magical, character has unusual tattoos, rules of the universe are broken for the character and they manage to cheat the system.
Along with other options that actually fit her. But even if it were just based on what I listed, that is a 37 Score. Which means they are dangerously close to a Mary Sue.
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
Used the Mary Sue Litmus Test, even checked boxes sparingly unless it directly fit with her, also followed the instructions to a 'T', still got a score of 76 though. Which is in the 50+ category and means the character is considered a "Mary Sue". To me shes just a Villain Sue. Which based on the OSP video, is basically the easiest of the bunch to get away with because Villains are already over the top characters anyway.
I got a 14. I'm not sure how you could get a 76.
Death of lover (Gideon) and and death of a friend (Josu), special artifact (3 of 6 boxes ticked), born into nobility, powerful magics, settles for the with most handsome person in the group, spared by an other-wise ruthless villian and grants her asylum, makes mistakes which cause death to others, has a mental psychological disorder, enhanced via tattoos and enjoys their life more for such improvements, has been in fights but has no scars, clothing that makes her look sexy or badass, major villian has a personal obession/fixation on them (Nicol Bolas), strange thing that happened to them in their childhood (Raven Man), character needs help with past problems and other characters make time out of their schedule for them, character has a one of a kind jewelry that is magical, character has unusual tattoos, rules of the universe are broken for the character and they manage to cheat the system.
Along with other options that actually fit her. But even if it were just based on what I listed, that is a 37 Score. Which means they are dangerously close to a Mary Sue.
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
I couldn't get past the first paragraph, because you put a number of things that are outright wrong in it. Bolas isn't obsessed with her, he was using her as an asset, like Tez or Sarkhan. He didn't spare her and give her asylum, he enslaved her. Gideon wasn't her lover. Josu was her brother not her friend, so counting him as a family death and a friend death is absurd. Most of the magical items and magic powers are specifically not supposed to be clicked if such things are common in the setting. ALL of the main characters have magic powers, so you aren't supposed to click it for Lili. She also isn't the only one with a magic item, such things are relatively common (Gideon having the blackblade, Tamiyo her scrolls, Nissa and her magic seed bag, Gideon's magic Sural, etc.) It's not clear that she has a mental disorder, she's just a *****, and people react to her like she's a *****. Chandra liked her at first because they are both rebellious, but then grew to distrust and dislike her. Nissa always disliked her. She manipulated Jace in what was explicitly portrayed as an abusive relationship with her as the abuser, and now Jace dislikes her more than any other character does. Only Gideon has put up with her ***** and decided to believe in her, but even then that doesn't count according to the litmus test because Gideon is the sort of guy that does that for everyone. Being the selfless and relentlessly nice guy was his whole schtick. If you are talking about the Raven Man that also isn't a disorder because he is almost certainly real.
You are also ignoring an entire section that subtracts points, and she hits a number of those.
Basically, you didn't follow the instructions to a tee.
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Fairly apt image for you don't you think? Especially based on your past post history and because you just went and glossed over what I also said at the end my post:
Quote from Thief »
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
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1. She escaped her all life from the sin she committed, she was ashamed, she felt responsible, and when you give yourself the mask of the sinner and of the butcher, the easiest way to to suffocate your inner turmoil is becoming your mask. Because she was not brave enough to get back home and battle herself, win her own weaknesses and confront her sin. So she run, she acquired power and when it all went down the Mending, what was of her was a prideful husk that hid fairly well the grudge for herself. Then the chain veil appeared: a possible tool to save it all, to free herself and master Death itself. She hoped to abuse it, to get stronger, and even more, to get brave enough to confront everything she left behind. She freed her brother, but did not felt relieved, for she just killed him two times
2. On Ravnica we have her final step. Black means surviving and winning doing that, what she is doing is the opposite: shine through her self sacrifice. She was the woman of the shortcut, because she always used them: killed the brother, run away; getting old, demonic pact; feeling love, crush her emotions... Everything was a shortcut for her, leading to that bridge on Ravnica, enslaved by a nearly omnipotent dragon, butchering everything, and she knows no one deserves that end, maybe she wore the mask of the killer, but she still knows a sin when she sees one. She had to decide for her survival, the easy shortcut, she would just look everyone get slayed, and then keep on her life suppressing her emotions and serving the big bad guy who in the end wouldn't even need her anymore as a God. It was really an easy choice for Black, survival afterall is the aim, but the pride? She would lose it, but it wouldn't be the first time a black character lose pride. All of the shortcuts she took had the consequences of making her next choice bigger at every step, and on that bridged it's all of her life at the stake: the chain veil, the power and her immortality, all the years she spent searching for it, all the pacts she did, everything she lost and everytime she fell harder for the aim of power. But in the end it doesn't even matter. She looks at the kids dying, she looks at herself, what has become of her, she is a tool to repeat her sins. She knows what's at stake, and she refuses the prize. She decides to confront Bolas, she totally negates herself, her dying could not bring herself peace: she knows souls are eternal, she knows she could be one of those ghost mourning in pain forever, or heaven knows what Bolas could do with her soul... And still she thinks, no more. She is enraged, yes, she might be rushed, but she is not stupid, she knows what she is doing: imagine burning of your own accord, but losing behind decades of searching, decades of plotting to regain power. She throws it all and burns, not thinking of her, because otherwise she would have not chosen that path. She spent her whole life escaping from everything, gaining power, and in the end she finally confronts her sins. She is taking responsibility. I find she really is evolving. In a unexpected way, in even a non-black way, but she is really on fire.
TL/DR: she fine, she good.
P.S.:Probably an overstating, redundant review on a character which really isn't that deep? But I think this is a self sacrifice that has nothing to do with pride or ego, saving other lives does not cancel sins, and dying doing that will not make you feel better, it will just physically destroy you, but this is really subjective to me and might be wrong.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue
We don't know how she was before the Mending, only that she is scared senseless by the prospect of death, because she knew full well what kind of afterlife to expect. Josu was expressive and very believable while describing it. Well, that fear wasn't much of the problem back then, but after the Mending, when she neared the end of her lifespan? It made her desperate, so she found a way to postpone death at a cost of a soul (which she hardly regretted that much at the moment) and some degree of servitude to her new masters. It was mentioned that they forced her to do many things, some of which were atrocious even by her standards. So even if killing Josu did not force her to assume the mask 'I'm evil and I don't care' that certainly did. Yes, that's a *****ty defense mechanism, and no one says she is a good person in the first place, but it still was the most logical one and there were basically no other way she could use, save for suicide variants.
After that every time we see her she tries to get out of the mess she gotten herself into, and each time she fails. Her plan to barter the Consortium for Bolas' help with the pacts not only failed quite spectacularly, but also left the new weight upon her conscience (and right until Ixalan story she acted accordingly).
Then there was the Veil, and even though it helped with some of the demons, it took another piece of her freedom - an incursion directly in her mind this time. Not only that, but the price of using the Veil was so steep and the prospects of continuous use so dire, that despite all the power it brought Liliana tried to get rid of it, only to discover that the Veil has even more control of her that she thought, and she is physically unable to part with it. Some time later we see her coming to Jace for help (being proud ***** that she is, she tried quite hard to not make it look like a plea for help, though), but here the whole Gatewatch arc starts and we basically don't see Liliana on her own ever since, so her personal line got tackled behind the whole Gatewatch bussiness.
Each of her sub-stories ends up in failure. Except may be the whole Garruk thing, but it is still in the air now. She is being hunted and if she happens to survive the WAR it still can backfire horribly. I'd say, that of all Gatewatchers (save for Jace, maybe) she actually faces the most consequences. She never actually succeeds.
Also it is sweet that you expect the Gatewatch to hate her. Jace has all the reason for it, of course (and I like to think that he still wasn't thinking straight at the moment he welcomed her to join, because that was kind of silly on his part). But others? They met her when she literally put her life in line to rescue them, and then stayed with them and saved their asses again and was badly hurt in the process. Even if they knew that her motivation has nothing to do with (most of) them, they still owe her. And she didn't even do anything bad to them. It's not like she forced them to Amonkhet or Dominaria - they decided on it together, her voice was hardly deciduous. She withheld some information, yes, and planned to use their goals to advance her own, but she still acted to advance their goals too, she never betrayed them or set up a trap or the like. On Amonkhet she tried to convince them to leave with her and it was obvious they couldn't do a thing at the moment. It was a sensible thing to do and though they are rightly sour about that, they don't really have a reason to actually be mad at her.
So yes, she is not a good person, she is very flawed, she runs from herself her whole life and that is what makes her a fascinating protagonist. She isn't juvenile or insecure,her story is not along the lines of classical 'coming of age', she faces different king of problems, makes different kind of hard choices, forms different kind of relationships and needs different kind of development, and all this is wonderful, though not often well written.
We have enough unequivocally good heroes and unequivocally bad villains, it's always nice to have something different. (Though I believe her Gatewatch-era characterization was mostly a failure, unfortunately)
(Yes, I love Liliana and am totally ready to die on this hill too)
I'd really love someone to link it to me because, in the actual mtg story, that doesn't exist. Liliana's brother and her being haunted by her death is literally mentioned in a handful of times in Dominaria story, had 0 impact on any of her choices before Dominaria, and is never mentioned again.
Your making good points on why not to like Lili, but bad points if you are trying to argue she's a Mary Sue. The very fact that her *****ty actions come back to bite her in the ass is proof against her being a Mary Sue. If bad ***** was happening to her just because, well that can happen to a Mary Sue, but since the bad ***** happening to her is demonstrably her fault, that makes her very much not Mary Sue. Because Mary Sue's don't do terrible *****, and they don't suffer any negative consequences for their actions, because they are by the definition of the trope portrayed as flawless. Lili is portrayed as a terrible person who causes 90 percent of her own problems, and is only recently even attempting to be less *****ty.
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If the posters calling her a Mary Sue mean something else (the other things aren't other types of Mary Sue, they are riffs on the idea), then they should say it. Saying Mary Sue, and not clarify it despite making several posts, leaves the only reasonable interpretation anyone can make being that the poster is calling the character a standard Mary Sue (and further, that they don't actually know what that is). Considering the way they are complaining about Liliana, that is even more likely. Besides, the only "sue" she comes close to is a Villain Sue, but considering that her *****ty behavior typically has pretty bad consequences for her, I'm skeptical of even that. In this set
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It was the foundation of her whole personality. This was established both the original webcomic and the Magic Origins short story for Liliana. It is the reason she avoids getting emotionally close to people, and the reason she is willing to take such risks to avoid death. Dominaria went deeper into exploring her feelings on the subject, showing that she actually still cares about her brother and regrets what happened to him for more than just selfish reasons, but as long as Liliana has had a backstory it has involved what happened to Josu emotionally scarring her and making her the *****y necromancer she is today.
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Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
I don't understand what you mean by flawless. Gideon had so much pride when he was younger, which lead to tragic arrogance.
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His arrogance didn't dissipate after that either. It takes a fair amount of arrogance for him to believe he could shoe string together an effective resistance to the Eldrazi and win. Ditto vs Emrakul. Ditto vs Bolas on Amonkhet. Only recently has he shifted from always believing that he'll just succeed against all odds as long as he tries real hard because he's invincible and has moxie.
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Except he didnt.believe he could shoestring a win over the Eldrazi. He stayed with Zendikar because he felt obligated, not out of any sense of "I got this". He was desperate for help- ANY help that he ran himself to the bone looking for it. His strategy was literally keep as many people alive as possible and pray an actual solution emerges.
The shoestring I was referring to was the Gatewatch. It was a crazy plan. There is always a fair amount of arrogance in play when someone thinks they are so indespensible that they cannot rest. Gideon has grown since then, and especially since Amonkhet.
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Now that you mention it. I just have one minor nitpick on Gideon regarding the events in Zendikar. When they were fighting Ob Nixilis.. I remember Ob was impressed that Gideon was able to fight him. Ob then offered to stop the fight, and continue it some other time at another place. Instead of stopping.. Gideon kept attacking, when Ob managed to get the upper hand - Gideon, Jace, and Nissa ended up captured and tortured by Ob. The capture and torture could have been avoided, if Gideon had stopped when Ob offered to stop the fight.
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Yeah. And it's neat to see him change from that guy into the guy he's been since getting owned by Bolas on Amonkhet. Willing to hold back, let others take the lead, and having the humility to realize that someone else is the key to victory and that he can rest. His arrogance was always coming from a good place though, the idea that he had to right obvious wrongs, that he had great power and thus a responsibility to use it.
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The Chain Veil definitely needed better buildup and as a threat-level, because after Kothophed and Griselbrand I literally gave up on Razaketh and Belzenlok even before I knew their names and by downplaying the Veil against the later two demons (and Bolas) trying to invoke Liliana's character development was a mistake. I'm not saying Liliana didn't need the development, I just felt the Veil (as a "character") really badly needed a bit more autonomy in the whole scheme of things despite its origins, because honestly the Raven Man is fighting for the same spot and they diluted each other real badly.
The Veil was supposed to be a "consequence" and it was instead used as a tool of "don't use it, use friendship instead" tug-o-war Liliana had, and while that gave her needed character development, it also diminished some expectation of consequences (and Raven Man) and coming from a character who had 4 demonic contracts, the dissonance is laughable. Call me evil, but bluntly speaking, for someone who makes mistakes of such sizes, the consequences Liliana actually suffers from is really sort of laughable in scale. Perhaps they tried to appeal to "realism link" of her suffering (since as I said in real life it would be pretty bad) but I can never get the "people get similar cases in real life, so you're telling me demonic contracts are no worse than their problems?" out of my head and it becomes sort of absurd instead.
What irks me the most is that this centuries-old planeswalker and master of black magic wouldn't figure out that the all-important contract for her soul defaults to Nicky when she kills all her demons. It's supposed to make Nicol Bolas look more clever and devious than her, but honestly it just makes her look stupid and incompetent instead.
That's my main problem with the whole Nicol Bolas arc. At every turn, WotC's idea of making Nicol Bolas seem like a mastermind is to just make everyone opposing him an idiot. I'm mostly okay with that being the case for the rest of the Gatewatch, since they're all relatively new at this whole planeswalker thing. But it ends up making Liliana a very unbelievable and short-sighted character that just doesn't gel with her own lore. And then she's just overpowered instead to try to make it look like she knows what she's doing.
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+1
Exactly. People shouldn't start pointing out Mary Sues just because thats the vanilla thing to hate on this month or year.
That just takes away all the meaning.
I got a 14. I'm not sure how you could get a 76.
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Along with other options that actually fit her. But even if it were just based on what I listed, that is a 37 Score. Which means they are dangerously close to a Mary Sue.
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
I couldn't get past the first paragraph, because you put a number of things that are outright wrong in it. Bolas isn't obsessed with her, he was using her as an asset, like Tez or Sarkhan. He didn't spare her and give her asylum, he enslaved her. Gideon wasn't her lover. Josu was her brother not her friend, so counting him as a family death and a friend death is absurd. Most of the magical items and magic powers are specifically not supposed to be clicked if such things are common in the setting. ALL of the main characters have magic powers, so you aren't supposed to click it for Lili. She also isn't the only one with a magic item, such things are relatively common (Gideon having the blackblade, Tamiyo her scrolls, Nissa and her magic seed bag, Gideon's magic Sural, etc.) It's not clear that she has a mental disorder, she's just a *****, and people react to her like she's a *****. Chandra liked her at first because they are both rebellious, but then grew to distrust and dislike her. Nissa always disliked her. She manipulated Jace in what was explicitly portrayed as an abusive relationship with her as the abuser, and now Jace dislikes her more than any other character does. Only Gideon has put up with her ***** and decided to believe in her, but even then that doesn't count according to the litmus test because Gideon is the sort of guy that does that for everyone. Being the selfless and relentlessly nice guy was his whole schtick. If you are talking about the Raven Man that also isn't a disorder because he is almost certainly real.
You are also ignoring an entire section that subtracts points, and she hits a number of those.
Basically, you didn't follow the instructions to a tee.
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