That I'm being "unreasonable" because I think that a minority of people want an overly bleak and "gritty" story is amusing, but not accurate at all. Most stories don't kill off a ton of named characters, Game of Thrones and Warhammer 40K aren't the only media that exists.
Samut and Vivian deserve to die because they have no story beyond "I'm a survivor from a dead world, I will kill Nicol Bolas if its the last thing I do" and yet they don't die. Letting them live provides no satisfying conclusion to their original stories.
That I'm being "unreasonable" because I think that a minority of people want an overly bleak and "gritty" story is amusing, but not accurate at all. Most stories don't kill off a ton of named characters, Game of Thrones and Warhammer 40K aren't the only media that exists.
Samut and Vivian deserve to die because they have no story beyond "I'm a survivor from a dead world, I will kill Nicol Bolas if its the last thing I do" and yet they don't die. Letting them live provides no satisfying conclusion to their original stories.
Poor Inigo Montoya. Must suck for that guy, gets his revenge and then doesn't die.
The flaw here is that you're thinking that's the only way those characters can go and that revenge should be the end all be all of a character. Plenty of stories exist where revenge isn't that, or where being focused on revenge blindly is pretty bad, like Moby Dick. All this means is that the characters are going to have some other focus, presumably not revenge. Samut still has Amonkhet to rebuild, for starters. And Vivien will find a new cause, probably something to do with animals given that's kind of her gimmick.
People talking about "stakes." Well, here are the stakes: if Bolas had won, the Multiverse would have been his forever, and he would reign over infinite Planes and infinite lives with an iron fist for eternity.
Who lives and who dies on Ravnica are not the stakes. The stakes aren't the number of named Planeswalkers we lose in this battle. The stakes are what happens if Bolas wins.
Now, we can debate whether or not our losses on Ravnica reflected, emotionally, the GRAVITY of those stakes. But the stakes in MTG's story have never been higher. Not even in Apocalypse.
.
Here's the thing...thats absolutely false.
Those are not real 'stakes' because.../spoilers....it was never going to happen. He was never going to win. So no, the stakes are not higher in that regard.
No, what I said was absolutely true. The stakes are the stakes for the people within the story, even if we, the players, know Bolas can't win or the universe is over.
Yawgmoth couldn't have won either. But just because the villain is doomed to fail doesn't mean that in-world, the stakes are any less real for the characters. You can bet that even if Urza and Gerrard had failed, the other Weatherlight heroes would have found some way to save the day. Because that's what the plot demanded.
Sauron was never going to win in LOTR. Thanos will never win in The Avengers. Their eventual defeats are a given. Does that mean there are no stakes in their respective stories? Of course not. If there are no stakes, what are the heroes fighting for?
People on these boards are confusing terms. "Stakes" does not equal "losses" or "price of victory."
In the end, the question isn't whether or not the stakes are there. Because the stakes ARE there. The question is whether we, the audience, feel the weight of those stakes.
Maybe you didn't. But I did. True, I'd have liked to have feel more pain. I would have liked War of the Spark to leave me a stunned, emotional wreck, with 10-20 character losses for me to wrap my bleeding heart around.
But it at least gave us a major Gatewatch death, which is big, and a first-time ever event. And at least they made it a good one.
That I'm being "unreasonable" because I think that a minority of people want an overly bleak and "gritty" story is amusing, but not accurate at all. Most stories don't kill off a ton of named characters, Game of Thrones and Warhammer 40K aren't the only media that exists.
Samut and Vivian deserve to die because they have no story beyond "I'm a survivor from a dead world, I will kill Nicol Bolas if its the last thing I do" and yet they don't die. Letting them live provides no satisfying conclusion to their original stories.
Poor Inigo Montoya. Must suck for that guy, gets his revenge and then doesn't die. Vivien will find a new cause, probably something to do with animals given that's kind of her gimmick.
Are you messing with me right now? Vivien and Samut don't get their revenge like Montoya does. Vivien is even worse off than Samut. She never gets to use her arkbow against Nicol Bolas, you know, the bow that essentially cost a whole plane to make, the bow that Vivien has been literally killing other creatures to store their souls within her bow so she can have an army of spirit animals to kill Nicol Bolas. Her bow is literally the equivalent of chekov's gun but said gun never is fired. Her not slaying or attempting to slay Nicol Bolas literally drops the ball on the climax of her story arc. Her story is pointless, its just a footnote that adds nothing to the final fight in actuality. Her living means she fades into the background unless forced into the Gatewatch team to keep her relevant. Garruk has more of a story purpose going on than her, and Garruk hasn't been seen in years.
It's not like every story kills off all of it's named characters.
I feel like if you'd stopped strawmanning for a minute, we might begin to have a constructive discussion. As it stands you're being extremely manipulative in your argument.
I'm not messing with you. The point I'm making is that characters can achieve revenge and still go on to do other things. So clearly revenge isn't the only thing that a character has to them. Do you need me to trot out examples of stories where characters achieve revenge and find it makes them hollow? Or examples where revenge gets taken from them and they find another purpose? Or any number of examples of stories where there is more nuance to revenge than "they kill the person and then drop dead after" which seems to be the only outcome you find worthwhile?
And sheesh, if you're not in the Gatewatch you're utterly pointless is an interesting take. I'm sure that's why people keep clamoring to go back to Theros, because Elspeth is utterly pointless. Also nice that you try to defend an attempt at bringing her into a more active role as a bad move. So even if they do make her relevant it's a moot point as you've already written it off as bad.
Personally I find Vivien a frustrating and pointless character and I hope she dies during this war.
Still, the fact that she isn't shown to die within the novel itself is really no skin off my nose. I would rather that Magic's first hardcover novel in a decade didn't waste any time trying to develope her before a "proper" send-off.
And sheesh, if you're not in the Gatewatch you're utterly pointless is an interesting take. I'm sure that's why people keep clamoring to go back to Theros, because Elspeth is utterly pointless. Also nice that you try to defend an attempt at bringing her into a more active role as a bad move. So even if they do make her relevant it's a moot point as you've already written it off as bad.
A few Planeswalkers and their Goals
Elspeth: Leave the underworld on Theros.
Koth: Stop the New Phyrexians.
Garruk: Kill other planeswalkers for sport.
Tamiyo: Collect stories.
Tibalt: Cause mental and physical pain.
Angrath: Get back to family.
Karn: Stop the New Phyrexians.
Jaya: Mentor Chandra.
And not one is a Gatewatch member. I said that for Vivien because her goal started with "Slay Nicol Bolas" and it ended there but she never gets to because Bolas is trapped on the Meditation plane and Ugin closed off access to it. Does she become more destructive like Garruk? That she just wipes out swathes of animals for her bow because that is all she has left to go on? Which puts her in an antagonistic role by the way.
These types of goals are also very open-ended and can still provide a wellspring of writing with them. The reason Garruk has more relevance than Vivien, even with my suggestion of just continuing to kill animals, is that Garruk embodies the shadow that looms in the background and could strike at anytime to the heroes. You may forget Garruk exists at times, but Garruk provides an undercurrent of tension, a threat to the heroes, that you never know when he might raise the stakes by ending a loved or hated character.
And as I said, I can find story examples where someone doesn't get their revenge (either because they give up on it or it gets taken from them) and still manage to do other stuff with their life. You're writing exceptionally one dimensional characters if the only thing Vivien can do after Bolas is just lay down and die. Yet I'm supposed to take your criticisms of the writing seriously to boot, kind of funny.
And as I said, I can find story examples where someone doesn't get their revenge (either because they give up on it or it gets taken from them) and still manage to do other stuff with their life. You're writing exceptionally one dimensional characters if the only thing Vivien can do after Bolas is just lay down and die. Yet I'm supposed to take your criticisms of the writing seriously to boot, kind of funny.
How Does She Drive The Plot Now When Her Motivation/Goal Is Gone?
And as I said, I can find story examples where someone doesn't get their revenge (either because they give up on it or it gets taken from them) and still manage to do other stuff with their life. You're writing exceptionally one dimensional characters if the only thing Vivien can do after Bolas is just lay down and die. Yet I'm supposed to take your criticisms of the writing seriously to boot, kind of funny.
How Does She Drive The Plot Now When Her Motivation/Goal Is Gone?
Why is she driving the plot? And how does anyone do anything when they fail at their goals? Someone must not be a fan of Rocky.
And as I said, I can find story examples where someone doesn't get their revenge (either because they give up on it or it gets taken from them) and still manage to do other stuff with their life. You're writing exceptionally one dimensional characters if the only thing Vivien can do after Bolas is just lay down and die. Yet I'm supposed to take your criticisms of the writing seriously to boot, kind of funny.
How Does She Drive The Plot Now When Her Motivation/Goal Is Gone?
Why is she driving the plot? And how does anyone do anything when they fail at their goals? Someone must not be a fan of Rocky.
Now I know fully you are messing with me. To drive the plot is to move the story forward.
And what story exactly is going on right now? Nothing is happening with Bolas taken out. We could see Phyrexia show up (presumably soon), but that's about it. As for Vivien, who even knows. My point isn't to suggest a specific course but to say that there is no reason a course can't be taken at all. If you think that Vivien has to just roll over and die because Bolas is taken out then I don't really know what to say, just seems like a lack of imagination to me.
Also sharing a quote that sums up my thoughts on the whole need for bleak/dark stories.
“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain.”
“But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe a happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.”
— Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas
Of course I'm sure people will try to say she's a bad writer next for having that kind of view.
Juvenile trash. That's all that can be said for this so called story.
Reading flavor texts on cards is painful, whoever is writing those needed to be fired 5 years ago. Bolas just comes off like a terrible and incompetent saturday morning cartoon villain, who gets bested by the local high school kids. Dragon god? F uck off. This is battle against the Eldrazis all over again. Where the main characters can do anything, and the villain is clueless and can't put up any resistance.
They didn't even have the balls to kill off Bolas, and put him out of his misery. No, he needs to be imprisoned in his realm ''forever'' (citation needed) just so they can bring him back when sales are low, and start hyping another ''epic'' Bolas storyline which will be equally as bad as this one.
Ravnica is all fine and dandy too. Again, we need Ravnica, because it's our most popular plane. No consequences allowed! Even Niv gets ressurected almost as soon as he dies. Can't wait to get Niv-Mizzet 5.0 in 4 years from now! What was even the point of Jace becoming the living guildpact? there were no changes because of it and no consequences, and it was hyped as some big story point. It's the same now. Bolas's defeat is hyped as the big storyline culmination. But it doesnt matter. Bolas is alive, Gideon is (probably) ready for a comeback, Ravnica is all fine.
Everything is just so lame and boring. There is no real tension and sense of danger. And most importantly, reading the WAR flavor texts makes me want to kill myself.
Also sharing a quote that sums up my thoughts on the whole need for bleak/dark stories.
Not all stories need to be bleak or dark, but something built on a premise WotS was, kinda doesn't really lend itself to a light tone.
None of the premises to me read "everyone dies and Bolas wins" or "half the known Planeswalkers die in a borderline pyrrhic victory". If that's how you're reading it then that's fine, but it's far from the only interpretation, as it is with literature. We had the bleak story with Amonkhet. That was one where it was rather obvious things weren't going to go well. We had it with the last round of Innistrad as well. Those were ones where it was rather obvious the story was going to be dark, and they delivered fine on that.
None of the premises to me read "everyone dies and Bolas wins" or "half the known Planeswalkers die in a borderline pyrrhic victory". If that's how you're reading it then that's fine, but it's far from the only interpretation, as it is with literature. We had the bleak story with Amonkhet. That was one where it was rather obvious things weren't going to go well. We had it with the last round of Innistrad as well. Those were ones where it was rather obvious the story was going to be dark, and they delivered fine on that.
Nice strawman you're building there. Unless you truly believe there is no room between "almost no planeswalkers die" and "half/most die", in which case discussing this is kinda hard.
Not a strawman given I’ve seen people say things like “Bolas and all the other walkers would die and basically reset the roster” as one way they expected the story to go. Do you want me to go dig for posts to prove my point? It’ll have to be after work but I’m more than able to show that people are saying these kind of things.
And so far no one has shown it’s necessary or even good to kill more characters beyond some nebulous “stakes” claim. I’m not inclined to meet in the middle because nothing has indicated that the middle is worth while, and trying to treat the middle as inherently worth while (not saying you are but to get it out of the way) is a logical fallacy. If you want to kill off more of the cast you’ll need to justify it. And so far that has utterly failed to happen. That you prefer something else does not make it bad writing.
Also sharing a quote that sums up my thoughts on the whole need for bleak/dark stories.
Not all stories need to be bleak or dark, but something built on a premise WotS was, kinda doesn't really lend itself to a light tone.
None of the premises to me read "everyone dies and Bolas wins" or "half the known Planeswalkers die in a borderline pyrrhic victory". If that's how you're reading it then that's fine, but it's far from the only interpretation, as it is with literature. We had the bleak story with Amonkhet. That was one where it was rather obvious things weren't going to go well. We had it with the last round of Innistrad as well. Those were ones where it was rather obvious the story was going to be dark, and they delivered fine on that.
Jesus Christ dude, that strawman is just a pile of straw now, you can stop beating it.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's not like every story kills off all of it's named characters.
I feel like if you'd stopped strawmanning for a minute, we might begin to have a constructive discussion. As it stands you're being extremely manipulative in your argument.
Only just saw this now. I’m not claiming to speak for the fans. I’m merely reporting what I see. But since you’d like to speak for the fans I can certainly try to have a more objective approach to it.
And I’m being perfectly constructive. Being constructive doesn’t mean rolling over for appeals to emotion though, which is the strongest attempt I’ve seen. I also fail to see what is even remotely constructive about calling the writing trash, which is the most common thing happening. That people then prop up Invasion only makes it more ironic to me.
Edit: I’ll add again that I’m not straw manning, because as I said I can find posts that have “everyone dies” as somehow a reasonable request.
I mean, you’re speaking pretty broadly for story fans. Your tastes aren’t the only ones.
The pot told the kettle.
Theres a pattern of cop outs, lazy retcons, and overall bad plotting that has been plaguing magic story for over a decade. It's like it's been plotted by a 13 year old with add. It wavers between subpar fanfiction and subpar fanfiction rewritten by competent authors.
You don't build up a final confrontation like this and then just do almost nothing with it. And compared to Amonkhet, it was almost nothing. Gideon was a meaningful casualty, and Domri and Dack sort of, but Amonkhet was the destruction of a civilization and the gatewatch getting handled. That sets up major expectations for WAR, expectations that Bolas is going to top himself before going down. He didnt.
I didn't want half the pws dead. I didn't want Ravnica destroyed. But what we got was part of the central city sort of damaged (but mostly evacuated!), one major character dead, one character they forgot about dead, and Domri dead. Oh, and a handful of paruns killed off screen well before Bolas arrived. That's less than Ravnica did to itself in it's debut block!
Bolas loses because he employs a preposterously stupid plan that seems designed to fail. I called it that he was a goddamn moron for putting Lili in charge of the eternals before her betrayal was confirmed. The whole invasion was sloppy. I get arrogance, but he meticulously planned Amonkhet, and it worked! He was arrogant as hell the whole time, but it went smoothly. But the invasion of Ravnica? He left tons of ways for things to go wrong, some by not covering his butt from things outside his control, others by actually creating the problems himself. That's lazy writing.
And this is before all the other issues with the story. Ixalan block is meaningless now. And for what? The Vraska as a sleeper agent sub plot was well received and made narrative sense. It was something that would explain Bolas'plan going awry without him looking like a dip*****. The Golgari swarm is one of the largest forces on Ravnica and one that grows it's ranks as it kills it's enemies. Bolas relying on them to tie up say the Boros, would have made sense, and their sudden betrayal would have left him facing two new large threats that he didn't account for. Best of all, they set it up so that he'd have no way of knowing it was coming, as he didn't know Jace was on Ixalan! That would have at least set things up so that the eternals were actually a threat on their own due to a divided Ravnica until Vraskas turn, rather than the defenders of Ravnica handling them pretty easily from the start until he brought in the God's. The former would mean that Bolas had a sound plan that would have worked and was only undone by the ingenuity of our hero's, the latter (what actually happened) makes him look like an idiot who rushed headlong into a hornet's nest and had to put all his cards on the table just to have a chance at winning.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Also sharing a quote that sums up my thoughts on the whole need for bleak/dark stories.
Not all stories need to be bleak or dark, but something built on a premise WotS was, kinda doesn't really lend itself to a light tone.
None of the premises to me read "everyone dies and Bolas wins" or "half the known Planeswalkers die in a borderline pyrrhic victory". If that's how you're reading it then that's fine, but it's far from the only interpretation, as it is with literature. We had the bleak story with Amonkhet. That was one where it was rather obvious things weren't going to go well. We had it with the last round of Innistrad as well. Those were ones where it was rather obvious the story was going to be dark, and they delivered fine on that.
Jesus Christ dude, that strawman is just a pile of straw now, you can stop beating it.
Not a straw man but a legitimate argument/request that I’ve seen put forward. Try again. You can argue how applicable it is broadly but that it’s something that has been expressed here in regards to criticisms of the story is undeniable.
I mean, you’re speaking pretty broadly for story fans. Your tastes aren’t the only ones.
The pot told the kettle.
Theres a pattern of cop outs, lazy retcons, and overall bad plotting that has been plaguing magic story for over a decade. It's like it's been plotted by a 13 year old with add. It wavers between subpar fanfiction and subpar fanfiction rewritten by competent authors.
You don't build up a final confrontation like this and then just do almost nothing with it. And compared to Amonkhet, it was almost nothing. Gideon was a meaningful casualty, and Domri and Dack sort of, but Amonkhet was the destruction of a civilization and the gatewatch getting handled. That sets up major expectations for WAR, expectations that Bolas is going to top himself before going down. He didnt.
I didn't want half the pws dead. I didn't want Ravnica destroyed. But what we got was part of the central city sort of damaged (but mostly evacuated!), one major character dead, one character they forgot about dead, and Domri dead. Oh, and a handful of paruns killed off screen well before Bolas arrived. That's less than Ravnica did to itself in it's debut block!
Bolas loses because he employs a preposterously stupid plan that seems designed to fail. I called it that he was a goddamn moron for putting Lili in charge of the eternals before her betrayal was confirmed. The whole invasion was sloppy. I get arrogance, but he meticulously planned Amonkhet, and it worked! He was arrogant as hell the whole time, but it went smoothly. But the invasion of Ravnica? He left tons of ways for things to go wrong, some by not covering his butt from things outside his control, others by actually creating the problems himself. That's lazy writing.
And this is before all the other issues with the story. Ixalan block is meaningless now. And for what? The Vraska as a sleeper agent sub plot was well received and made narrative sense. It was something that would explain Bolas'plan going awry without him looking like a dip*****. The Golgari swarm is one of the largest forces on Ravnica and one that grows it's ranks as it kills it's enemies. Bolas relying on them to tie up say the Boros, would have made sense, and their sudden betrayal would have left him facing two new large threats that he didn't account for. Best of all, they set it up so that he'd have no way of knowing it was coming, as he didn't know Jace was on Ixalan! That would have at least set things up so that the eternals were actually a threat on their own due to a divided Ravnica until Vraskas turn, rather than the defenders of Ravnica handling them pretty easily from the start until he brought in the God's. The former would mean that Bolas had a sound plan that would have worked and was only undone by the ingenuity of our hero's, the latter (what actually happened) makes him look like an idiot who rushed headlong into a hornet's nest and had to put all his cards on the table just to have a chance at winning.
Please point specifically where I said my tastes are a stand in for the majority? Bearing in mind that the most I’ve done is used anecdotal evidence.
And not remotely in agreement on the writing but I don’t really use number of bodies as a metric for quality. Nor do I think how Bolas lost is bad. But I’m not going in with the idea he’s unbeatable and flawless.
Not a strawman given I’ve seen people say things like “Bolas and all the other walkers would die and basically reset the roster” as one way they expected the story to go. Do you want me to go dig for posts to prove my point? It’ll have to be after work but I’m more than able to show that people are saying these kind of things.
It is, since you're basically commenting as if that was the number one stance presented by people - which it isn't. Sure, you can find some posts with such sentiments, but you could also find ones where someone expected Fblthp to be the hero of the story or become a planeswalker. Doesn't mean those should become the focus of the discussion.
Not a strawman given I’ve seen people say things like “Bolas and all the other walkers would die and basically reset the roster” as one way they expected the story to go. Do you want me to go dig for posts to prove my point? It’ll have to be after work but I’m more than able to show that people are saying these kind of things.
It is, since you're basically commenting as if that was the number one stance presented by people - which it isn't. Sure, you can find some posts with such sentiments, but you could also find ones where someone expected Fblthp to be the hero of the story or become a planeswalker. Doesn't mean those should become the focus of the discussion.
And given my focus was “people want more death” it isn’t like that is the focus. You mistake examples as focus, when that isn’t the only example I’ve made either.
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Poor Inigo Montoya. Must suck for that guy, gets his revenge and then doesn't die.
The flaw here is that you're thinking that's the only way those characters can go and that revenge should be the end all be all of a character. Plenty of stories exist where revenge isn't that, or where being focused on revenge blindly is pretty bad, like Moby Dick. All this means is that the characters are going to have some other focus, presumably not revenge. Samut still has Amonkhet to rebuild, for starters. And Vivien will find a new cause, probably something to do with animals given that's kind of her gimmick.
No, what I said was absolutely true. The stakes are the stakes for the people within the story, even if we, the players, know Bolas can't win or the universe is over.
Yawgmoth couldn't have won either. But just because the villain is doomed to fail doesn't mean that in-world, the stakes are any less real for the characters. You can bet that even if Urza and Gerrard had failed, the other Weatherlight heroes would have found some way to save the day. Because that's what the plot demanded.
Sauron was never going to win in LOTR. Thanos will never win in The Avengers. Their eventual defeats are a given. Does that mean there are no stakes in their respective stories? Of course not. If there are no stakes, what are the heroes fighting for?
People on these boards are confusing terms. "Stakes" does not equal "losses" or "price of victory."
In the end, the question isn't whether or not the stakes are there. Because the stakes ARE there. The question is whether we, the audience, feel the weight of those stakes.
Maybe you didn't. But I did. True, I'd have liked to have feel more pain. I would have liked War of the Spark to leave me a stunned, emotional wreck, with 10-20 character losses for me to wrap my bleeding heart around.
But it at least gave us a major Gatewatch death, which is big, and a first-time ever event. And at least they made it a good one.
I'm so glad you are the only one who isn't out of touch and can tell us, the fans, what we really want.
I feel like if you'd stopped strawmanning for a minute, we might begin to have a constructive discussion. As it stands you're being extremely manipulative in your argument.
And sheesh, if you're not in the Gatewatch you're utterly pointless is an interesting take. I'm sure that's why people keep clamoring to go back to Theros, because Elspeth is utterly pointless. Also nice that you try to defend an attempt at bringing her into a more active role as a bad move. So even if they do make her relevant it's a moot point as you've already written it off as bad.
Still, the fact that she isn't shown to die within the novel itself is really no skin off my nose. I would rather that Magic's first hardcover novel in a decade didn't waste any time trying to develope her before a "proper" send-off.
Elspeth: Leave the underworld on Theros.
Koth: Stop the New Phyrexians.
Garruk: Kill other planeswalkers for sport.
Tamiyo: Collect stories.
Tibalt: Cause mental and physical pain.
Angrath: Get back to family.
Karn: Stop the New Phyrexians.
Jaya: Mentor Chandra.
And not one is a Gatewatch member. I said that for Vivien because her goal started with "Slay Nicol Bolas" and it ended there but she never gets to because Bolas is trapped on the Meditation plane and Ugin closed off access to it. Does she become more destructive like Garruk? That she just wipes out swathes of animals for her bow because that is all she has left to go on? Which puts her in an antagonistic role by the way.
These types of goals are also very open-ended and can still provide a wellspring of writing with them. The reason Garruk has more relevance than Vivien, even with my suggestion of just continuing to kill animals, is that Garruk embodies the shadow that looms in the background and could strike at anytime to the heroes. You may forget Garruk exists at times, but Garruk provides an undercurrent of tension, a threat to the heroes, that you never know when he might raise the stakes by ending a loved or hated character.
Why is she driving the plot? And how does anyone do anything when they fail at their goals? Someone must not be a fan of Rocky.
Also sharing a quote that sums up my thoughts on the whole need for bleak/dark stories.
“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain.”
“But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe a happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.”
— Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas
Of course I'm sure people will try to say she's a bad writer next for having that kind of view.
Reading flavor texts on cards is painful, whoever is writing those needed to be fired 5 years ago. Bolas just comes off like a terrible and incompetent saturday morning cartoon villain, who gets bested by the local high school kids. Dragon god? F uck off. This is battle against the Eldrazis all over again. Where the main characters can do anything, and the villain is clueless and can't put up any resistance.
They didn't even have the balls to kill off Bolas, and put him out of his misery. No, he needs to be imprisoned in his realm ''forever'' (citation needed) just so they can bring him back when sales are low, and start hyping another ''epic'' Bolas storyline which will be equally as bad as this one.
Ravnica is all fine and dandy too. Again, we need Ravnica, because it's our most popular plane. No consequences allowed! Even Niv gets ressurected almost as soon as he dies. Can't wait to get Niv-Mizzet 5.0 in 4 years from now! What was even the point of Jace becoming the living guildpact? there were no changes because of it and no consequences, and it was hyped as some big story point. It's the same now. Bolas's defeat is hyped as the big storyline culmination. But it doesnt matter. Bolas is alive, Gideon is (probably) ready for a comeback, Ravnica is all fine.
Everything is just so lame and boring. There is no real tension and sense of danger. And most importantly, reading the WAR flavor texts makes me want to kill myself.
Not all stories need to be bleak or dark, but something built on a premise WotS was, kinda doesn't really lend itself to a light tone.
None of the premises to me read "everyone dies and Bolas wins" or "half the known Planeswalkers die in a borderline pyrrhic victory". If that's how you're reading it then that's fine, but it's far from the only interpretation, as it is with literature. We had the bleak story with Amonkhet. That was one where it was rather obvious things weren't going to go well. We had it with the last round of Innistrad as well. Those were ones where it was rather obvious the story was going to be dark, and they delivered fine on that.
Nice strawman you're building there. Unless you truly believe there is no room between "almost no planeswalkers die" and "half/most die", in which case discussing this is kinda hard.
And so far no one has shown it’s necessary or even good to kill more characters beyond some nebulous “stakes” claim. I’m not inclined to meet in the middle because nothing has indicated that the middle is worth while, and trying to treat the middle as inherently worth while (not saying you are but to get it out of the way) is a logical fallacy. If you want to kill off more of the cast you’ll need to justify it. And so far that has utterly failed to happen. That you prefer something else does not make it bad writing.
Jesus Christ dude, that strawman is just a pile of straw now, you can stop beating it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Only just saw this now. I’m not claiming to speak for the fans. I’m merely reporting what I see. But since you’d like to speak for the fans I can certainly try to have a more objective approach to it.
And I’m being perfectly constructive. Being constructive doesn’t mean rolling over for appeals to emotion though, which is the strongest attempt I’ve seen. I also fail to see what is even remotely constructive about calling the writing trash, which is the most common thing happening. That people then prop up Invasion only makes it more ironic to me.
Edit: I’ll add again that I’m not straw manning, because as I said I can find posts that have “everyone dies” as somehow a reasonable request.
The pot told the kettle.
Theres a pattern of cop outs, lazy retcons, and overall bad plotting that has been plaguing magic story for over a decade. It's like it's been plotted by a 13 year old with add. It wavers between subpar fanfiction and subpar fanfiction rewritten by competent authors.
You don't build up a final confrontation like this and then just do almost nothing with it. And compared to Amonkhet, it was almost nothing. Gideon was a meaningful casualty, and Domri and Dack sort of, but Amonkhet was the destruction of a civilization and the gatewatch getting handled. That sets up major expectations for WAR, expectations that Bolas is going to top himself before going down. He didnt.
I didn't want half the pws dead. I didn't want Ravnica destroyed. But what we got was part of the central city sort of damaged (but mostly evacuated!), one major character dead, one character they forgot about dead, and Domri dead. Oh, and a handful of paruns killed off screen well before Bolas arrived. That's less than Ravnica did to itself in it's debut block!
Bolas loses because he employs a preposterously stupid plan that seems designed to fail. I called it that he was a goddamn moron for putting Lili in charge of the eternals before her betrayal was confirmed. The whole invasion was sloppy. I get arrogance, but he meticulously planned Amonkhet, and it worked! He was arrogant as hell the whole time, but it went smoothly. But the invasion of Ravnica? He left tons of ways for things to go wrong, some by not covering his butt from things outside his control, others by actually creating the problems himself. That's lazy writing.
And this is before all the other issues with the story. Ixalan block is meaningless now. And for what? The Vraska as a sleeper agent sub plot was well received and made narrative sense. It was something that would explain Bolas'plan going awry without him looking like a dip*****. The Golgari swarm is one of the largest forces on Ravnica and one that grows it's ranks as it kills it's enemies. Bolas relying on them to tie up say the Boros, would have made sense, and their sudden betrayal would have left him facing two new large threats that he didn't account for. Best of all, they set it up so that he'd have no way of knowing it was coming, as he didn't know Jace was on Ixalan! That would have at least set things up so that the eternals were actually a threat on their own due to a divided Ravnica until Vraskas turn, rather than the defenders of Ravnica handling them pretty easily from the start until he brought in the God's. The former would mean that Bolas had a sound plan that would have worked and was only undone by the ingenuity of our hero's, the latter (what actually happened) makes him look like an idiot who rushed headlong into a hornet's nest and had to put all his cards on the table just to have a chance at winning.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/808565-planar-celebration#c17
Not a straw man but a legitimate argument/request that I’ve seen put forward. Try again. You can argue how applicable it is broadly but that it’s something that has been expressed here in regards to criticisms of the story is undeniable.
Please point specifically where I said my tastes are a stand in for the majority? Bearing in mind that the most I’ve done is used anecdotal evidence.
And not remotely in agreement on the writing but I don’t really use number of bodies as a metric for quality. Nor do I think how Bolas lost is bad. But I’m not going in with the idea he’s unbeatable and flawless.
It is, since you're basically commenting as if that was the number one stance presented by people - which it isn't. Sure, you can find some posts with such sentiments, but you could also find ones where someone expected Fblthp to be the hero of the story or become a planeswalker. Doesn't mean those should become the focus of the discussion.
And given my focus was “people want more death” it isn’t like that is the focus. You mistake examples as focus, when that isn’t the only example I’ve made either.