I mean didn't they just randomly kill of Dack? Like I said you cannot put the genie back in the bottle previously Heroes died a lot especially in the Finale where Yawgmoth dropped plenty of Heroes be they Walkers or Not to put down Phyrexia.
Killing a bunch of no names does nothing for stakes.
They killed three people, as many as they have since the card type was established. It's a sizable number relatively speaking. And it's still causing plenty of people to be upset because Dack, Gideon, and even Domri have fans. No need to make people miserable just because some have a bizarre desire to have others be unhappy. It won't improve the story any, as the only answer that makes the story good amounts to "everyone dies and Bolas wins" so far.
I dont agree at all. Gideon going out like he did, was the best thing that happened out of this and actually added emotional weight to the story. To the point that I'm now a fan of the guy and building a deck around him.
That doesn't mean you need to kill off half the cast. No one is saying "death is bad", but just killing people for no good reason because you feel the stakes aren't enough is emotionally shallow writing.
And Urza's story killing so many people is one of many reasons why I don't think of it as good writing, it just feels needlessly bleak to generate edge.
It doesn't matter in no way does lets be generous 8% of Named Walkers Present Dying count as sizable number relatively speaking.
Bolas is built up as this big bad and yet time and time again Plot Armor has been the only thing keep Gatewatchers and everyone else alive. He should have killed one on Amonkhet yeah I get he needed to rally the bunch of them to bait a bunch of walkers to Ravnica. But he didn't need all of them. At best he needed three alive in Jace, Lili and Gideon. Chandra and Nissa though surplus to requirements.
Also I would posit the fans of Dack and Domri are mad because these characters did nothing story wise before getting killed. Especially Dack at least Domri is a Ravnican Native. Dack just showed up because they wanted to kill someone that is bad writing. They didn't even give him a card that is just slap in the face. Gideon it makes sense the problem with Gideon is the Lili Romance just started on Dominaria so that being a motivation for either of them is super rushed. As for Domri I find it funny he gets killed for being tricked by Bolas (and lets be honest its not like the Gruul don't have some legit grievances) but Kaya who has helped two tyrants seize power gets a free pass? Am I to assume Kaya is simply stupid? She and Lili should be best friends then.
That doesn't mean you need to kill off half the cast. No one is saying "death is bad", but just killing people for no good reason because you feel the stakes aren't enough is emotionally shallow writing.
Sure, doing it for 'no good reason' is pretty low brow.
Doing it because its the termination, the culmination, the end, of the story arc, that is plenty of reason. If Magic has a story, and clearly it does, then it seems to me, it should be the story of Magic, of the Multiverse, of the Planes.
Gideon falling brought back a lot of memories, it hits on tropes that have been present since stories of the White Knight, the Paladin, existed. It adds gravitas to the story of Magic, that even the noble will fall.
Honestly its probably a bit much to have MULTIPLE main characters die, because I doubt it could be done justice over the cards like Gideon was. Domri gets merked, but he never had depth in the first place so yeah a few cards. Dack? Well he's a sideshow anyway really, was not part of the 'main' story all that much.
In the end I expected this to be an ending for the gatewatch, foolish on my part in hindsight, but it is what it is.
Gideon's death however redeemed the story of this set for me.
The Gatewatch has fought the Eldrazi Titans and Nicol Bolas and only lost 1 Member. How are we suppose to take threats that WOTC tells us are some of the most powerful in the Multiverse? Universe? Seriously if we are averaging one Gatewatcher per every 2 Ultimate Evil if your generous or one Gatewatcher ever 4 if you count each Titan Separately.
The issue is people are naturally going to compare these current Big Bads to the previous guy and the previous guy has a record that makes these new guys look pathetic. The previous guy being Yawgmoth who has killed more Walkers then these 4 put together.
Granted I think the Gideon part of this story besides the Liliana stuff is well executed. I didn't even like Gideon put seeing him with his Irregulars in the Afterlife or headed towards it hit the Feels.
I feel like Maro really gets why just killing characters off haphazardly is pretty bad. There isn't any merit in just tossing characters into a grinder, even if some people like it that doesn't really resonate with most people.
I get that, and I agree they shouldn't have just killed off a ton of walkers for the hell of it. But Vivien and Samut have no purpose now that Bolas is dead, their entire story was based around getting revenge on Bolas and now he's gone. And the writers haven't known what to do with Kiora since the Eldrazi plot ended. Keeping some of these characters around is pointless, I get the sense we won't even see them in any major capacity again.
That doesn't mean you need to kill off half the cast. No one is saying "death is bad", but just killing people for no good reason because you feel the stakes aren't enough is emotionally shallow writing.
And Urza's story killing so many people is one of many reasons why I don't think of it as good writing, it just feels needlessly bleak to generate edge.
Every death in Urza's story serves a purpose. Most importantly, it shows the reader that there are actual consequences and stakes at play, unlike here.
AUTUM, Kaya is a token character who is here for no other purpose than ''representation matters''. They are never going to kill her off because wotc nowadays fears any kind of backlash, just like MaRo's comment on not killing characters shows.
''intheinterim asked: Not that anyone expected a massacre or anything, but isn't the fact that only 3/37 named planeswalkers die in War of the Spark but lots of nameless planeswalkers die offscreen as to make the claim this battle was a costly toll on planeswalkers a bit of a cop-out?
The planeswalker cards were introduced in 2007. Since then three planeswalkers with cards have died (Venser, Xenagos and Elspeth). In one set, as many planeswalkers with cards died as the first *twelve years* since their introduction. How in the world is that a cop out?''
How? How can you be this out of touch with reality when your main argument is ''well, the same number of characters had died in one set as in the pass 12 years so it's not a cop out'' when barely no one died in those 12 years?! Theros alone had almost as many notable deaths as the war for the fate of the multiverse! We also can't count on Elspeth because they will bring her back so yea, 2 deaths in 12 years and 3 in the battle for the multiverse. The fact that you had 12 years to implement actual consequences and stakes into the story and the best that you came up with is ''We will kill a bunch of nameless randoms to make the war look tragic'' is both sad and mindblowing.
I feel like Maro really gets why just killing characters off haphazardly is pretty bad. There isn't any merit in just tossing characters into a grinder, even if some people like it that doesn't really resonate with most people.
If they don't want to see high stakes conflicts through, then they shouldn't do high stakes conflicts.
I really find this "omg they shouldn't kill off characters ever" to be super annoying. Nobody is asking for planeswalkers to die constantly. There's plenty of storylines where planeswalkers dying would actually detract from the plot and not fit thematically. Ixalan and Kaladesh come to mind. Even Amonkhet had an okay resolution with the planeswalkers getting their butt handed to them by Bolas, without dying. The game isn't just for those who don't want any casualties ever. To say that the only alternative is to kill planeswalkers every other set is intellectually dishonest, because that's not what the other camp is asking for. They merely ask for casualties when the story is set up in such a way that no or minimum casualties simply don't fit with the stakes established beforehand. There's a solution where you can have both, storylines with and without casualties, but asking to never do it is effectively claiming that the wants of other people are not as important as your own.
Also, few casualties actively detract from the plot. Having Gideon die as the only character of note kind of retroactively makes the whole conflict about him. But the thing is, it isn't about him. Gideon is just one piece in it all, and not even the most important one. It is, if anything, about Bolas. Having multiple characters die "seemingly haphazardly" (major emphasis on seemingly) makes the conflict feel like a planeswalkers' war and not a personal feud between Bolas and the gatewatch.
And as someone already pointed out, we are introduced to 4 new Planeswalkers (Kasmina, Wanderer, Teyo, Davriel) and we had the loss of 3 Walkers (Gideon, Domri, Dack). So in the end of this all out High Stakes Planeswalker WAR, we end up +1 on the Walkers.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Someone mentioned Rat. I don't know what role Rat plays in WAR but her spark will ignite in the next novel.
It is fairly obvious at this point. We even got a detailed design for the character.
As someone has said before, where is the big moment where Jace returns Vraska's memory and the "lovers" reunite? What were they building that up for if not for a big moment of "Bolas, you thought you had her under your thumb, but we love each other ,so here is your comeupance!" And I agree with most people that some more walkers should have died. Granted I would be kinda sad if one of my favourites died (as a matter of fact Gideon was one of my favourites in the Gatewatch) but it would lend some weight to the story. This way, the whole eternals killing PWs left and right just rings hollow and Bolas just seems like a pretty laughable moustache twirling villain. What ever did he do? Nothing. And ended like a little whelp... meh... pretty disappointed with the way they concluded this... And by the way, they ommiting Niv's death on the cards was just plain stupid....
LOL, they were hyping that there would be alot of casualties in thsi war and pffff. That really was pathetic, i figured current Wizards din't had the balls to off characters. ELdrazis had a pathetic ending to them and now Bolas had aswell. Yawgmoth still remains king of villainy and thankefully hes dead so he doesn't get ruined by the Gatewatch.
Hopefully the new Phyrexians live up to the legacy, but i doubt it by Wizards's direction in treating their villains these days.
There is also the issue of characters with stories that are technically done but they are alive. For example what is Vivien Reid's story now? She came all this way to slay Nicol Bolas and yet its some necromancer and paladin that Vivien never met that basically steal her kill. Even her arkbow never gets to do the thing it was designed to do to begin with, making her peoples last ditch work all for nothing. Her home she can't go to because it got destroyed by Nicol Bolas and marking her as the sole survivor. Her living actually makes her story less impactful. That from a writing perspective its also wasteful in retrospect as it adds little to the overall story other than "I exist, Nicol Bolas wrecked my world too". Samut as well for these sort of reasons, besides the legendary weapon.
Also just to add a bit more about Samut, man there has got to be some stigma associated with Amonhket now that she has to bear with in life. As what can she say about her peoples history before Nicol Bolas conqueored her world? Nothing much really as much of the prior history was either rewritten or erased.
'Say Samut what plane did you come from?'
'Amonkhet'
'Isn't that where Bolas and his eternals came from?'
'Yeah.'
'Oh. Ohhhhh. Sorry I asked.'
Some are also defending the story by saying hundreds of nameless planeswalkers and thousands or millions of ravnicans are killed.
This might not even be the case either. The Dreadhorde did not go throughout the plane of Ravnica killing everyone. This battle primarily takes place in the Main city and primarily in the main center of that city and the eternals were going after planeswalkers and anyone else in the way. Many ravnicans evacuated. Possibly only dozens of nameless walkers were killed (gotta see the book for a number) and maybe only hundreds or a few thousand at most Ravnicans were killed. So even in that defense not much stakes were to be had.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Some are also defending the story by saying hundreds of nameless planeswalkers and thousands or millions of ravnicans are killed.
This might not even be the case either. The Dreadhorde did not go throughout the plane of Ravnica killing everyone. This battle primarily takes place in the Main city and primarily in the main center of that city and the eternals were going after planeswalkers and anyone else in the way. Many ravnicans evacuated. Possibly only dozens of nameless walkers were killed (gotta see the book for a number) and maybe only hundreds or a few thousand at most Ravnicans were killed. So even in that defense not much stakes were to be had.
Do we even know long this "war" took? As I'm getting a Seven Hour War vibe like from Half-Life series where it was quick and decisive.
Seems like the Phyrexian's caused so many more planeswalker fatalities than Nicol Bolas and the Eldrazi Titans. I was really hoping we'd have the numbers culled by, say, half?
Some are also defending the story by saying hundreds of nameless planeswalkers and thousands or millions of ravnicans are killed.
This might not even be the case either. The Dreadhorde did not go throughout the plane of Ravnica killing everyone. This battle primarily takes place in the Main city and primarily in the main center of that city and the eternals were going after planeswalkers and anyone else in the way. Many ravnicans evacuated. Possibly only dozens of nameless walkers were killed (gotta see the book for a number) and maybe only hundreds or a few thousand at most Ravnicans were killed. So even in that defense not much stakes were to be had.
Do we even know long this "war" took? As I'm getting a Seven Hour War vibe like from Half-Life series where it was quick and decisive.
Couple of hours at best.
From what we know, no guildmasters have died except for Domri but I doubt that anyone in Gruul really gives a crap about him. Only 3 named walkers had died and a bunch of random bystanders have probably died. So, this war had little to no actual consequences.
Guildmasters are fine which means that the political structure of the plane is fine. If anything, guilds are now closer than they've ever been.
Planeswalkers who are actual characters are fine, making the death count quite laughable indeed.
A small portion of the plane wide city is a mess, it will be repaired in a few days, no big deal.
The plane is more united than ever.
Yea, great WAR indeed. Such dire consequences, such impact on the plane, much wow!
Those of you who have seen some of my other posts know that I get a bit wordy. But whatevs, I will word it up again.
Stakes. Stakes, man.
One thing I really, really liked about Star Wars: Rogue One was the concept of ‘stakes.’ The fate of the universe hinges on this one team pulling off the impossible. And as they start proving successful, we’re feeling good, until, uh oh, one of them dies. Okay, well, that’s just one. And then another main character dies. And then another. And another. Suddenly, you realize this is *for real*. The Good Guys have gone up against the Bad Guys, and you begin to realize there’s a chance the Good Guys don’t make it out. Every moment, every death, has gravitas now, even though we’ve only just met them. Now we see just how powerful and dangerous the Empire is. Now we see why the galaxy is right to fear them. So much death and loss, and then, at the very end . . . Hope.
I can’t remember another movie like that. Maybe the original Magnificent Seven, with Brenner? In LOTR, none of the major characters really died apart from Theoden and Boromir.
Let’s look at the Yawgmoth/Urza storyline, now. Like Bolas, Yawgmoth plotted for millenia. Already a god of one plane, he wanted to finally conquer Dominaria, too. In The Thran, many people perish, including a planeswalker, Dyfed, and the woman who built the shining star for the Thran Empire, Rebbec. Then thousands of years later Yawgmoth plays Mishra against Urza, leading to a devastating war that sees the loss of sons, of friends, and brothers. Then Urza plots against Yawgmoth, and creates the Legacy and the human counterpart, which also involves years of hardship.
Of the original Weatherlight crew, we have: Rofellos, who died before Tempest; Crovax, who turned from friend to evil, dangerous foe; Mirri, who died to save the man she loved on Rath, who she knew would never love her back; Tahngarth, who was tortured and disfigured by Volrath, before saving his people and being seen as a hero; Hanna, who Gerrard Capashen loved, who died horribly from Phyrexian plague during the Invasion; Orim, the healer who saw her friends suffer and die around her; Ertai, who was abandoned and turned to evil on Rath, before being killed by Squee; Squee, who was constantly killed over and over again for Crovax’s amusement; Starke, who betrayed and then was blinded, and killed on Mercadia; Karn, who was forced to kill as a pacifist, who saw so much time pass and was made to forget it, and who ‘died’ to end Yawgmoth; Sisay, who was tasked with the Legacy and struggled her whole life to do her duty; and Gerrard Capashen, whose whole life was suffering, who lost his family, his friends, his love, and gave his life to finally defeat Yawgmoth.
Then we have the Nine Titans who attacked Phyrexia itself: Urza, Lord Windgrace, Tevesh Szat, Taysir, Commodore Guff, Kristina of the Woods, Daria, Freyalise, and Bo Levar.
For years we were introduced to these characters. Many of us who played at the time really became attached to specific characters (in my case, Gerrard Capashen and Karn). The stories drove the sets, and the sets drove the stories.
Going into the Invasion, we had 10 Weatherlight ‘crew’ (including Multani, excluding Starke, Mirri, and Rofellos who had already died) still alive, and all nine of the Nine Titans. These were named characters, with more-or-less fleshed out backgrounds.
How many were left by the end of Apocalypse? 6 out of 10 ‘Weatherlight crew’ (Crovax, Hanna, Ertai, and Gerrard all died), and 2 out of 9 of the Nine Titans (Bo Levar, Guff, Szat, Taysir, Kristina, Daria, and Urza all died).
Out of 19 named, well-known characters, only ***8*** survive the events of Invasion block, survive the death of Yawgmoth. That’s only three sets.
Why? Because it was the culmination of the Yawgmoth/Legacy story. It was an Ending. It was the dividing line between what happened before and what would happen after. It’s the ending cutscene of a video game. For the story to have gravitas, for the Ineffable Yawgmoth to be seen as the absolute danger and evil that he was, we had to have *stakes*. If only one Weatherlight crew member died (Gerrard) and only two of the Titans died, well, what did we ever have to worry about? What was all the commotion about? Was the Empire really so scary, if no one died to bring it down in Rogue One?
We’re not looking at thrown-away deaths. These deaths served a story purpose, more than one, and it made sense because their deaths made their lives, and the story, matter.
So when I see 36 planeswalker cards for War of the Spark, when I see card art of sparks flying all over the place, when I see an army designed for the sole purpose of killing walkers and extracting their sparks, I’m expecting something a little more than three walkers, one of which we never really got to see in a regular set, losing their lives. These are mortals after all, right? And Gideon didn’t die due to desparking, as far as I know. So only two named walkers were desparked and killed?
I’m not taking a shot at people’s preferred planeswalkers, but: Isn’t Nissa’s story about wrapped up, just as Gideon’s was? Weren’t we all ready for Jaya to kick the bucket? (I haven’t read the novel spoilers, so I don’t know if this happens) What about Ajani? His life seems to have been geared to stopping Bolas. Why is he still around? Out of the five walkers who led guilds for Bolas, only one, Domri, is betrayed and killed? What about Dovin and Kaya, who we were told were only introduced earlier so that they could be in this set, and thus serve no other purpose? What is Kiora even doing anywhere these days? Vraska’s whole life was to lead her friends in Golgari; what is she going to do now?
And why introduce all these tertiary walkers with all the uncommon variations, when we have never heard of them before, if not to have them lose their lives to show walkers being killed?
The climax of Urza and Yawgmoth resulted in two broken planes, uncountable dead, and only 8 of 19 main characters being alive. The climax of Bolas and the Gatewatch results in . . . 33 of 36 named walkers surviving, one purposeless plane (Amonkhet), and one traumatized plane (Ravnica).
This was the grand climax of Bolas we were being ginned up for, for years? This is the modern-day equivalent of Yawgmoth’s defeat? As others have pointed out, what enemy could possibly compare to the Eldrazi and Bolas, in which only one Gatewatch member died against three planar threats? What enemy could possibly be as interesting and devastating as plane-destroying creatures and a god-dragon? I'm not bloodthirsty, I just want to be made to feel that there are actual stakes in Magic these days.
I’ll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
So I totally agree with peoples concerns about the story not feeling like it has enough consequence. The Invasion/apocalypse story killed whole swaths of characters. Urza, gerrard, yawgmoth, hannah, takara, barrin, rayne, daria, kristin, tevesh tzat, darrigaz, dromar, treva, taysir, crovax, ertai, eladamri, lin sivvi, commodore guff, bo levar, lord windgrace. Along with billions of dominarians. They also destroyed all or parts of urborg,llanowar,benalia,tolaria. And an entire plane in Phyrexia. They also phased out shiv(temporarily) zhalfir(permanently). War killed gideon arguably one of the most important members of the gatewatch, Domri rade an ancillary character at best with only minor importance to the plot and Dack Fayden a character who's first appearance in a mainline story was dying in the WAR trailer. Along with a handful of nameless red shirt planewalkers that die offscreen.
They didnt even have the stones to kill bolas. They just de-powered him and locked him away. They destroyed yawgmoth with a planes worth of white mana. Using a weapon urza had cultured for centuries made from a living airship, the bones of a dragon, a time travelling golem made of pure silver, 2 ancient thran power stones, a living heir to years of genetic engineering as well as a swath of magical items. I like war's story alot but saying "Oh well 3 walkers died that's as many as we've killed up until now!" is a serious cop out. You cant sell this as the end all beat all giant war throwdown with "major story consequences" and "Things will never be the same" when by comparison more people died just on tolaria when barrin cast obliterate.
Those of you who have seen some of my other posts know that I get a bit wordy. But whatevs, I will word it up again.
Stakes. Stakes, man.
One thing I really, really liked about Star Wars: Rogue One was the concept of ‘stakes.’ The fate of the universe hinges on this one team pulling off the impossible. And as they start proving successful, we’re feeling good, until, uh oh, one of them dies. Okay, well, that’s just one. And then another main character dies. And then another. And another. Suddenly, you realize this is *for real*. The Good Guys have gone up against the Bad Guys, and you begin to realize there’s a chance the Good Guys don’t make it out. Every moment, every death, has gravitas now, even though we’ve only just met them. Now we see just how powerful and dangerous the Empire is. Now we see why the galaxy is right to fear them. So much death and loss, and then, at the very end . . . Hope.
I can’t remember another movie like that. Maybe the original Magnificent Seven, with Brenner? In LOTR, none of the major characters really died apart from Theoden and Boromir.
Let’s look at the Yawgmoth/Urza storyline, now. Like Bolas, Yawgmoth plotted for millenia. Already a god of one plane, he wanted to finally conquer Dominaria, too. In The Thran, many people perish, including a planeswalker, Dyfed, and the woman who built the shining star for the Thran Empire, Rebbec. Then thousands of years later Yawgmoth plays Mishra against Urza, leading to a devastating war that sees the loss of sons, of friends, and brothers. Then Urza plots against Yawgmoth, and creates the Legacy and the human counterpart, which also involves years of hardship.
Of the original Weatherlight crew, we have: Rofellos, who died before Tempest; Crovax, who turned from friend to evil, dangerous foe; Mirri, who died to save the man she loved on Rath, who she knew would never love her back; Tahngarth, who was tortured and disfigured by Volrath, before saving his people and being seen as a hero; Hanna, who Gerrard Capashen loved, who died horribly from Phyrexian plague during the Invasion; Orim, the healer who saw her friends suffer and die around her; Ertai, who was abandoned and turned to evil on Rath, before being killed by Squee; Squee, who was constantly killed over and over again for Crovax’s amusement; Starke, who betrayed and then was blinded, and killed on Mercadia; Karn, who was forced to kill as a pacifist, who saw so much time pass and was made to forget it, and who ‘died’ to end Yawgmoth; Sisay, who was tasked with the Legacy and struggled her whole life to do her duty; and Gerrard Capashen, whose whole life was suffering, who lost his family, his friends, his love, and gave his life to finally defeat Yawgmoth.
Then we have the Nine Titans who attacked Phyrexia itself: Urza, Lord Windgrace, Tevesh Szat, Taysir, Commodore Guff, Kristina of the Woods, Daria, Freyalise, and Bo Levar.
For years we were introduced to these characters. Many of us who played at the time really became attached to specific characters (in my case, Gerrard Capashen and Karn). The stories drove the sets, and the sets drove the stories.
Going into the Invasion, we had 10 Weatherlight ‘crew’ (including Multani, excluding Starke, Mirri, and Rofellos who had already died) still alive, and all nine of the Nine Titans. These were named characters, with more-or-less fleshed out backgrounds.
How many were left by the end of Apocalypse? 6 out of 10 ‘Weatherlight crew’ (Crovax, Hanna, Ertai, and Gerrard all died), and 2 out of 9 of the Nine Titans (Bo Levar, Guff, Szat, Taysir, Kristina, Daria, and Urza all died).
Out of 19 named, well-known characters, only ***8*** survive the events of Invasion block, survive the death of Yawgmoth. That’s only three sets.
Why? Because it was the culmination of the Yawgmoth/Legacy story. It was an Ending. It was the dividing line between what happened before and what would happen after. It’s the ending cutscene of a video game. For the story to have gravitas, for the Ineffable Yawgmoth to be seen as the absolute danger and evil that he was, we had to have *stakes*. If only one Weatherlight crew member died (Gerrard) and only two of the Titans died, well, what did we ever have to worry about? What was all the commotion about? Was the Empire really so scary, if no one died to bring it down in Rogue One?
We’re not looking at thrown-away deaths. These deaths served a story purpose, more than one, and it made sense because their deaths made their lives, and the story, matter.
So when I see 36 planeswalker cards for War of the Spark, when I see card art of sparks flying all over the place, when I see an army designed for the sole purpose of killing walkers and extracting their sparks, I’m expecting something a little more than three walkers, one of which we never really got to see in a regular set, losing their lives. These are mortals after all, right? And Gideon didn’t die due to desparking, as far as I know. So only two named walkers were desparked and killed?
I’m not taking a shot at people’s preferred planeswalkers, but: Isn’t Nissa’s story about wrapped up, just as Gideon’s was? Weren’t we all ready for Jaya to kick the bucket? (I haven’t read the novel spoilers, so I don’t know if this happens) What about Ajani? His life seems to have been geared to stopping Bolas. Why is he still around? Out of the five walkers who led guilds for Bolas, only one, Domri, is betrayed and killed? What about Dovin and Kaya, who we were told were only introduced earlier so that they could be in this set, and thus serve no other purpose? What is Kiora even doing anywhere these days? Vraska’s whole life was to lead her friends in Golgari; what is she going to do now?
And why introduce all these tertiary walkers with all the uncommon variations, when we have never heard of them before, if not to have them lose their lives to show walkers being killed?
The climax of Urza and Yawgmoth resulted in two broken planes, uncountable dead, and only 8 of 19 main characters being alive. The climax of Bolas and the Gatewatch results in . . . 33 of 36 named walkers surviving, one purposeless plane (Amonkhet), and one traumatized plane (Ravnica).
This was the grand climax of Bolas we were being ginned up for, for years? This is the modern-day equivalent of Yawgmoth’s defeat? As others have pointed out, what enemy could possibly compare to the Eldrazi and Bolas, in which only one Gatewatch member died against three planar threats? What enemy could possibly be as interesting and devastating as plane-destroying creatures and a god-dragon? I'm not bloodthirsty, I just want to be made to feel that there are actual stakes in Magic these days.
I’ll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
I'd like to jump in before some smartass tries to use the argument ''well, Ravnica is in bad shape and its citizens are traumatized. Families were killed, homes destroyed blablabla''. Nobody cares! Do you know why? Because we, as readers, don't see those consequences. Even if they turn out to be in a story or two, nobody cares because in Fall we're on the next plane and the adventure continues.
It is like saying that BFZ was a loss because ''unknown titan slaying consequences'' which we will most likely never see (especially now when Ugin is out of the picture, supposedly sealed to guard Bolas, idk this is not spoiler talk but speculation). Those kinds of consequences, the one that you don't see nor are emotionally connected to, don't count, period.
Those of you who have seen some of my other posts know that I get a bit wordy. But whatevs, I will word it up again.
Stakes. Stakes, man.
One thing I really, really liked about Star Wars: Rogue One was the concept of ‘stakes.’ The fate of the universe hinges on this one team pulling off the impossible. And as they start proving successful, we’re feeling good, until, uh oh, one of them dies. Okay, well, that’s just one. And then another main character dies. And then another. And another. Suddenly, you realize this is *for real*. The Good Guys have gone up against the Bad Guys, and you begin to realize there’s a chance the Good Guys don’t make it out. Every moment, every death, has gravitas now, even though we’ve only just met them. Now we see just how powerful and dangerous the Empire is. Now we see why the galaxy is right to fear them. So much death and loss, and then, at the very end . . . Hope.
I can’t remember another movie like that. Maybe the original Magnificent Seven, with Brenner? In LOTR, none of the major characters really died apart from Theoden and Boromir.
Rogue One is arguably on of the worst movies to use as an example of setting the stakes well.
As a prequel, we knew the team would succeed in their mission because we'd already seen the results of their success in a movie that came out long prior to Rogue One. There was never a chance of failure.
You could argue that the deaths raise the stakes, but even that falls through when you put a bit more thought into it:
Who dies? Characters introduced specifically for this movie who we have no prior interest in (a small step above no name background characters since they are our central protagonists for this single movie).
Why do they die? Simple, the Star Wars franchise has experience with prequel-related plot holes. By killing off any and all new 'important' characters introduced in this prequel, they avoid the question of where these 'important' people were during the movies that followed them and why they weren't helping out. And we know this is the case, because they used that same tactic with the Solo movie and killing off characters in it.
With no chance of failure and the no chance for brand new characters to survive, how were the stakes high again?
I mean, would people really be happier with the War of the Spark storyline if instead of what we have we got 5 brand new planeswalkers that worked together to beat Bolas but all/most were killed in the process/
Those of you who have seen some of my other posts know that I get a bit wordy. But whatevs, I will word it up again.
Stakes. Stakes, man.
One thing I really, really liked about Star Wars: Rogue One was the concept of ‘stakes.’ The fate of the universe hinges on this one team pulling off the impossible. And as they start proving successful, we’re feeling good, until, uh oh, one of them dies. Okay, well, that’s just one. And then another main character dies. And then another. And another. Suddenly, you realize this is *for real*. The Good Guys have gone up against the Bad Guys, and you begin to realize there’s a chance the Good Guys don’t make it out. Every moment, every death, has gravitas now, even though we’ve only just met them. Now we see just how powerful and dangerous the Empire is. Now we see why the galaxy is right to fear them. So much death and loss, and then, at the very end . . . Hope.
I can’t remember another movie like that. Maybe the original Magnificent Seven, with Brenner? In LOTR, none of the major characters really died apart from Theoden and Boromir.
Rogue One is arguably on of the worst movies to use as an example of setting the stakes well.
As a prequel, we knew the team would succeed in their mission because we'd already seen the results of their success in a movie that came out long prior to Rogue One. There was never a chance of failure.
You could argue that the deaths raise the stakes, but even that falls through when you put a bit more thought into it:
Who dies? Characters introduced specifically for this movie who we have no prior interest in (a small step above no name background characters since they are our central protagonists for this single movie).
Why do they die? Simple, the Star Wars franchise has experience with prequel-related plot holes. By killing off any and all new 'important' characters introduced in this prequel, they avoid the question of where these 'important' people were during the movies that followed them and why they weren't helping out. And we know this is the case, because they used that same tactic with the Solo movie and killing off characters in it.
With no chance of failure and the no chance for brand new characters to survive, how were the stakes high again?
I mean, would people really be happier with the War of the Spark storyline if instead of what we have we got 5 brand new planeswalkers that worked together to beat Bolas but all/most were killed in the process/
You look at Rogue One in isolation. Then the movie has high stakes for everyone involved. Rogue One has high stakes in it. If the good guys fail things go bad. Just because it is a prequel doesn't mean that the stakes in the movie itself aren't high. The story and the characters can't predict the future. To them the stakes are high.
We had 38 Named Walkers and only 3 died that is pathetic for all this build up.
I dont agree at all. Gideon going out like he did, was the best thing that happened out of this and actually added emotional weight to the story. To the point that I'm now a fan of the guy and building a deck around him.
Spirits
And Urza's story killing so many people is one of many reasons why I don't think of it as good writing, it just feels needlessly bleak to generate edge.
Bolas is built up as this big bad and yet time and time again Plot Armor has been the only thing keep Gatewatchers and everyone else alive. He should have killed one on Amonkhet yeah I get he needed to rally the bunch of them to bait a bunch of walkers to Ravnica. But he didn't need all of them. At best he needed three alive in Jace, Lili and Gideon. Chandra and Nissa though surplus to requirements.
Also I would posit the fans of Dack and Domri are mad because these characters did nothing story wise before getting killed. Especially Dack at least Domri is a Ravnican Native. Dack just showed up because they wanted to kill someone that is bad writing. They didn't even give him a card that is just slap in the face. Gideon it makes sense the problem with Gideon is the Lili Romance just started on Dominaria so that being a motivation for either of them is super rushed. As for Domri I find it funny he gets killed for being tricked by Bolas (and lets be honest its not like the Gruul don't have some legit grievances) but Kaya who has helped two tyrants seize power gets a free pass? Am I to assume Kaya is simply stupid? She and Lili should be best friends then.
Sure, doing it for 'no good reason' is pretty low brow.
Doing it because its the termination, the culmination, the end, of the story arc, that is plenty of reason. If Magic has a story, and clearly it does, then it seems to me, it should be the story of Magic, of the Multiverse, of the Planes.
Gideon falling brought back a lot of memories, it hits on tropes that have been present since stories of the White Knight, the Paladin, existed. It adds gravitas to the story of Magic, that even the noble will fall.
Honestly its probably a bit much to have MULTIPLE main characters die, because I doubt it could be done justice over the cards like Gideon was. Domri gets merked, but he never had depth in the first place so yeah a few cards. Dack? Well he's a sideshow anyway really, was not part of the 'main' story all that much.
In the end I expected this to be an ending for the gatewatch, foolish on my part in hindsight, but it is what it is.
Gideon's death however redeemed the story of this set for me.
Spirits
The issue is people are naturally going to compare these current Big Bads to the previous guy and the previous guy has a record that makes these new guys look pathetic. The previous guy being Yawgmoth who has killed more Walkers then these 4 put together.
Granted I think the Gideon part of this story besides the Liliana stuff is well executed. I didn't even like Gideon put seeing him with his Irregulars in the Afterlife or headed towards it hit the Feels.
No, because that doesn't happen in the novel.
I get that, and I agree they shouldn't have just killed off a ton of walkers for the hell of it. But Vivien and Samut have no purpose now that Bolas is dead, their entire story was based around getting revenge on Bolas and now he's gone. And the writers haven't known what to do with Kiora since the Eldrazi plot ended. Keeping some of these characters around is pointless, I get the sense we won't even see them in any major capacity again.
Every death in Urza's story serves a purpose. Most importantly, it shows the reader that there are actual consequences and stakes at play, unlike here.
AUTUM, Kaya is a token character who is here for no other purpose than ''representation matters''. They are never going to kill her off because wotc nowadays fears any kind of backlash, just like MaRo's comment on not killing characters shows.
''intheinterim asked: Not that anyone expected a massacre or anything, but isn't the fact that only 3/37 named planeswalkers die in War of the Spark but lots of nameless planeswalkers die offscreen as to make the claim this battle was a costly toll on planeswalkers a bit of a cop-out?
The planeswalker cards were introduced in 2007. Since then three planeswalkers with cards have died (Venser, Xenagos and Elspeth). In one set, as many planeswalkers with cards died as the first *twelve years* since their introduction. How in the world is that a cop out?''
How? How can you be this out of touch with reality when your main argument is ''well, the same number of characters had died in one set as in the pass 12 years so it's not a cop out'' when barely no one died in those 12 years?! Theros alone had almost as many notable deaths as the war for the fate of the multiverse! We also can't count on Elspeth because they will bring her back so yea, 2 deaths in 12 years and 3 in the battle for the multiverse. The fact that you had 12 years to implement actual consequences and stakes into the story and the best that you came up with is ''We will kill a bunch of nameless randoms to make the war look tragic'' is both sad and mindblowing.
If they don't want to see high stakes conflicts through, then they shouldn't do high stakes conflicts.
I really find this "omg they shouldn't kill off characters ever" to be super annoying. Nobody is asking for planeswalkers to die constantly. There's plenty of storylines where planeswalkers dying would actually detract from the plot and not fit thematically. Ixalan and Kaladesh come to mind. Even Amonkhet had an okay resolution with the planeswalkers getting their butt handed to them by Bolas, without dying. The game isn't just for those who don't want any casualties ever. To say that the only alternative is to kill planeswalkers every other set is intellectually dishonest, because that's not what the other camp is asking for. They merely ask for casualties when the story is set up in such a way that no or minimum casualties simply don't fit with the stakes established beforehand. There's a solution where you can have both, storylines with and without casualties, but asking to never do it is effectively claiming that the wants of other people are not as important as your own.
Also, few casualties actively detract from the plot. Having Gideon die as the only character of note kind of retroactively makes the whole conflict about him. But the thing is, it isn't about him. Gideon is just one piece in it all, and not even the most important one. It is, if anything, about Bolas. Having multiple characters die "seemingly haphazardly" (major emphasis on seemingly) makes the conflict feel like a planeswalkers' war and not a personal feud between Bolas and the gatewatch.
It is fairly obvious at this point. We even got a detailed design for the character.
Hopefully the new Phyrexians live up to the legacy, but i doubt it by Wizards's direction in treating their villains these days.
Also just to add a bit more about Samut, man there has got to be some stigma associated with Amonhket now that she has to bear with in life. As what can she say about her peoples history before Nicol Bolas conqueored her world? Nothing much really as much of the prior history was either rewritten or erased.
'Say Samut what plane did you come from?'
'Amonkhet'
'Isn't that where Bolas and his eternals came from?'
'Yeah.'
'Oh. Ohhhhh. Sorry I asked.'
This might not even be the case either. The Dreadhorde did not go throughout the plane of Ravnica killing everyone. This battle primarily takes place in the Main city and primarily in the main center of that city and the eternals were going after planeswalkers and anyone else in the way. Many ravnicans evacuated. Possibly only dozens of nameless walkers were killed (gotta see the book for a number) and maybe only hundreds or a few thousand at most Ravnicans were killed. So even in that defense not much stakes were to be had.
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
Couple of hours at best.
From what we know, no guildmasters have died except for Domri but I doubt that anyone in Gruul really gives a crap about him. Only 3 named walkers had died and a bunch of random bystanders have probably died. So, this war had little to no actual consequences.
Guildmasters are fine which means that the political structure of the plane is fine. If anything, guilds are now closer than they've ever been.
Planeswalkers who are actual characters are fine, making the death count quite laughable indeed.
A small portion of the plane wide city is a mess, it will be repaired in a few days, no big deal.
The plane is more united than ever.
Yea, great WAR indeed. Such dire consequences, such impact on the plane, much wow!
Stakes. Stakes, man.
One thing I really, really liked about Star Wars: Rogue One was the concept of ‘stakes.’ The fate of the universe hinges on this one team pulling off the impossible. And as they start proving successful, we’re feeling good, until, uh oh, one of them dies. Okay, well, that’s just one. And then another main character dies. And then another. And another. Suddenly, you realize this is *for real*. The Good Guys have gone up against the Bad Guys, and you begin to realize there’s a chance the Good Guys don’t make it out. Every moment, every death, has gravitas now, even though we’ve only just met them. Now we see just how powerful and dangerous the Empire is. Now we see why the galaxy is right to fear them. So much death and loss, and then, at the very end . . . Hope.
I can’t remember another movie like that. Maybe the original Magnificent Seven, with Brenner? In LOTR, none of the major characters really died apart from Theoden and Boromir.
Let’s look at the Yawgmoth/Urza storyline, now. Like Bolas, Yawgmoth plotted for millenia. Already a god of one plane, he wanted to finally conquer Dominaria, too. In The Thran, many people perish, including a planeswalker, Dyfed, and the woman who built the shining star for the Thran Empire, Rebbec. Then thousands of years later Yawgmoth plays Mishra against Urza, leading to a devastating war that sees the loss of sons, of friends, and brothers. Then Urza plots against Yawgmoth, and creates the Legacy and the human counterpart, which also involves years of hardship.
Of the original Weatherlight crew, we have: Rofellos, who died before Tempest; Crovax, who turned from friend to evil, dangerous foe; Mirri, who died to save the man she loved on Rath, who she knew would never love her back; Tahngarth, who was tortured and disfigured by Volrath, before saving his people and being seen as a hero; Hanna, who Gerrard Capashen loved, who died horribly from Phyrexian plague during the Invasion; Orim, the healer who saw her friends suffer and die around her; Ertai, who was abandoned and turned to evil on Rath, before being killed by Squee; Squee, who was constantly killed over and over again for Crovax’s amusement; Starke, who betrayed and then was blinded, and killed on Mercadia; Karn, who was forced to kill as a pacifist, who saw so much time pass and was made to forget it, and who ‘died’ to end Yawgmoth; Sisay, who was tasked with the Legacy and struggled her whole life to do her duty; and Gerrard Capashen, whose whole life was suffering, who lost his family, his friends, his love, and gave his life to finally defeat Yawgmoth.
Then we have the Nine Titans who attacked Phyrexia itself: Urza, Lord Windgrace, Tevesh Szat, Taysir, Commodore Guff, Kristina of the Woods, Daria, Freyalise, and Bo Levar.
For years we were introduced to these characters. Many of us who played at the time really became attached to specific characters (in my case, Gerrard Capashen and Karn). The stories drove the sets, and the sets drove the stories.
Going into the Invasion, we had 10 Weatherlight ‘crew’ (including Multani, excluding Starke, Mirri, and Rofellos who had already died) still alive, and all nine of the Nine Titans. These were named characters, with more-or-less fleshed out backgrounds.
How many were left by the end of Apocalypse? 6 out of 10 ‘Weatherlight crew’ (Crovax, Hanna, Ertai, and Gerrard all died), and 2 out of 9 of the Nine Titans (Bo Levar, Guff, Szat, Taysir, Kristina, Daria, and Urza all died).
Out of 19 named, well-known characters, only ***8*** survive the events of Invasion block, survive the death of Yawgmoth. That’s only three sets.
Why? Because it was the culmination of the Yawgmoth/Legacy story. It was an Ending. It was the dividing line between what happened before and what would happen after. It’s the ending cutscene of a video game. For the story to have gravitas, for the Ineffable Yawgmoth to be seen as the absolute danger and evil that he was, we had to have *stakes*. If only one Weatherlight crew member died (Gerrard) and only two of the Titans died, well, what did we ever have to worry about? What was all the commotion about? Was the Empire really so scary, if no one died to bring it down in Rogue One?
We’re not looking at thrown-away deaths. These deaths served a story purpose, more than one, and it made sense because their deaths made their lives, and the story, matter.
So when I see 36 planeswalker cards for War of the Spark, when I see card art of sparks flying all over the place, when I see an army designed for the sole purpose of killing walkers and extracting their sparks, I’m expecting something a little more than three walkers, one of which we never really got to see in a regular set, losing their lives. These are mortals after all, right? And Gideon didn’t die due to desparking, as far as I know. So only two named walkers were desparked and killed?
I’m not taking a shot at people’s preferred planeswalkers, but: Isn’t Nissa’s story about wrapped up, just as Gideon’s was? Weren’t we all ready for Jaya to kick the bucket? (I haven’t read the novel spoilers, so I don’t know if this happens) What about Ajani? His life seems to have been geared to stopping Bolas. Why is he still around? Out of the five walkers who led guilds for Bolas, only one, Domri, is betrayed and killed? What about Dovin and Kaya, who we were told were only introduced earlier so that they could be in this set, and thus serve no other purpose? What is Kiora even doing anywhere these days? Vraska’s whole life was to lead her friends in Golgari; what is she going to do now?
And why introduce all these tertiary walkers with all the uncommon variations, when we have never heard of them before, if not to have them lose their lives to show walkers being killed?
The climax of Urza and Yawgmoth resulted in two broken planes, uncountable dead, and only 8 of 19 main characters being alive. The climax of Bolas and the Gatewatch results in . . . 33 of 36 named walkers surviving, one purposeless plane (Amonkhet), and one traumatized plane (Ravnica).
This was the grand climax of Bolas we were being ginned up for, for years? This is the modern-day equivalent of Yawgmoth’s defeat? As others have pointed out, what enemy could possibly compare to the Eldrazi and Bolas, in which only one Gatewatch member died against three planar threats? What enemy could possibly be as interesting and devastating as plane-destroying creatures and a god-dragon? I'm not bloodthirsty, I just want to be made to feel that there are actual stakes in Magic these days.
I’ll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
They didnt even have the stones to kill bolas. They just de-powered him and locked him away. They destroyed yawgmoth with a planes worth of white mana. Using a weapon urza had cultured for centuries made from a living airship, the bones of a dragon, a time travelling golem made of pure silver, 2 ancient thran power stones, a living heir to years of genetic engineering as well as a swath of magical items. I like war's story alot but saying "Oh well 3 walkers died that's as many as we've killed up until now!" is a serious cop out. You cant sell this as the end all beat all giant war throwdown with "major story consequences" and "Things will never be the same" when by comparison more people died just on tolaria when barrin cast obliterate.
I'd like to jump in before some smartass tries to use the argument ''well, Ravnica is in bad shape and its citizens are traumatized. Families were killed, homes destroyed blablabla''. Nobody cares! Do you know why? Because we, as readers, don't see those consequences. Even if they turn out to be in a story or two, nobody cares because in Fall we're on the next plane and the adventure continues.
It is like saying that BFZ was a loss because ''unknown titan slaying consequences'' which we will most likely never see (especially now when Ugin is out of the picture, supposedly sealed to guard Bolas, idk this is not spoiler talk but speculation). Those kinds of consequences, the one that you don't see nor are emotionally connected to, don't count, period.
Rogue One is arguably on of the worst movies to use as an example of setting the stakes well.
As a prequel, we knew the team would succeed in their mission because we'd already seen the results of their success in a movie that came out long prior to Rogue One. There was never a chance of failure.
You could argue that the deaths raise the stakes, but even that falls through when you put a bit more thought into it:
Who dies? Characters introduced specifically for this movie who we have no prior interest in (a small step above no name background characters since they are our central protagonists for this single movie).
Why do they die? Simple, the Star Wars franchise has experience with prequel-related plot holes. By killing off any and all new 'important' characters introduced in this prequel, they avoid the question of where these 'important' people were during the movies that followed them and why they weren't helping out. And we know this is the case, because they used that same tactic with the Solo movie and killing off characters in it.
With no chance of failure and the no chance for brand new characters to survive, how were the stakes high again?
I mean, would people really be happier with the War of the Spark storyline if instead of what we have we got 5 brand new planeswalkers that worked together to beat Bolas but all/most were killed in the process/
You look at Rogue One in isolation. Then the movie has high stakes for everyone involved. Rogue One has high stakes in it. If the good guys fail things go bad. Just because it is a prequel doesn't mean that the stakes in the movie itself aren't high. The story and the characters can't predict the future. To them the stakes are high.