I foresee:
-those dead remain dead and we'll have lots of deads
-Bolas' plan will succeed, he'll ascend to become a god BUT while the multiverse premending could easily sustain the presence of a planeswalker of that weight, now the multiverse rejects the new entity of Bolas and so he apparently disappears. Leaving everyone there think he is dead. Obviously he is not dead and he just needs time to accustom the multiverse to his refound powers, so in little time he will come back menacing as ever. THIS leaves Tezzeret free to roam and rummage New Phyrexia.
So... A. But it will be presented to us as though he was defeated, probably with someone like Ugin or Jace to come out, put on a pair of glasses, and say "You know, dear, his yearning was as much as his idiocy, not accounting that maybe the multiverse is effing tired of him" ...Then 9 sets later POOF he reappears out of thin air proclaming himself, rightfully this time, the true god (maybe even in the same exact moment Phyrexia is about to invade Dominaria, which would actually happen even sooner than 9 sets away...)
The protection it grants from weapons is secondary to that purpose. And a bronze Khopesh is not going to cut through a steel breastplate. It just isn't. Protection wise, a soldier on Ravinca is quite well equipped to fight other, similarly equipped soldiers. And it takes special training to defeat such equipment. Training which a knight or soldier from Dominaria or Alara might have, certainly, because they have comparable equipment. But a warrior from Amonkhet, where that equipment doesn't exist? Probably not. Add on top of this that Ravinca's guilds use mounted cavalry and the Eternals do not, and by all accounts they are actually ill-equipped in the most literal sense of the word to face the armies of Ravnica. That's justification enough for me for all the zombie-killing we have seen in the cards spoiled thus far. And there is probably a lot of art we still haven't seen of the Eternals doing their thing too. Remember, the set still isn't out yet.
If this was a conflict in the real world, I'd agree with most of your points. However, we don't have all the facts and information available to really make a valid point about things such as bronze weapons vs plate armor. For all we know, it's magicalbronze that has been enchanted specifically to be able to cut through plate armor.. Or, the eternals have their own magic that they use to do it, the sword just being the instrument of that magic (like a wand), or bolas gave them extra abilities, etc.. Alternatively, they may be mostly unkillable, able to keep repairing or getting back up. Due to other enchantments either Bolas, or one of the Eternalized gods, has put on them.
I understand you were just making explanations for the art all showing the Ravnicans winning for the most part, and I agree its not unreasonable that they could defeat them based on technological disparities. I think it's been shown this way because, in small numbers the Ravnicans are beating Eternals, and the cards are showing the exceptional moments where this happens. However, it doesn't matter. The Eternals are out numbering them. I don't know where anyone was getting the numbers for the Eternals, but the pictures make it look like hundreds of thousands of Eternals, at least. Which, by the way, are only invading a specific portion of Ravnica. Ravnica as a whole might be one giant city, spanning the entire plane, but the majority of their population is irrelevant if the Eternals are only in this area. Imagine if someone invaded Manhattan with 150,000 troops INSTANTLY, with no warning, our armies scattered across the world would be mostly meaningless. They'd have control of the city within a day or two, which is all Bolas would need if he was looking to control that specific portion of Ravnica. Now, we know he doesn't want to control Ravnica, only to kill planeswalkers, but the planeswalkers didn't know that. So, most of them would likely concentrate in that area of the plane to fight him when they showed up.
The way I think it will go, is the Ravnicans seem to be doing well in their fights against Eternals. They are dropping them relatively easily, but the horde keeps coming for some reason. They start thinking maybe he just has an infinite number of them, constantly coming through the planar bridge, until they realize that every Eternal they seem to defeat, is just getting back up and coming at them. They are being worn down. Their biggest guns show up (Parhelion II, Rakdos, Niv-Mizzet, etc..) and make some headway against the horde, but then are outmatched by some of the Eternalized Gods (and I'm hoping Bolas brought the Scarab, Locust and Scorpion Gods along with zombie Bontu, Oketra, Rhonas, and Kefnet). This will raise the stakes and make it seem like Ravnica is definitely going to lose until the Gatewatch and Co. are able to find the weaknesses in Bolas power structure. Nissa helps defeat/alter some of the gods, Vraska gets her memory back and is critical in finding a way to keep Eternals down (she petrifies them? or the golgari just know how to keep something dead), Niv-Mizzet gets reborn and his power helps fight the gods, Jace + Lavinia find the loophole in Bolas contract on Lilli (altho I'm still hoping Dovin has a bigger plan and betrays Bolas, cause it'd be perfect for him to help with the contract), etc..
You're really underestimating the impact of constant practise. The Amonkheti did not have to worry about mundane day to day things, like agriculture, politics or even raising children. They focused entirely on combat prowess. Putting that many hours into a particular skill really really has a huge impact.
Here is the thing about Amonkhet's Trials and training: we are given to understand that most of their training was in fighting beasts and monsters, not other warriors and soldiers.
This isn't true at all. The trials (especially Oketra's and Hazoret's) frequently featured embalmed to serve as opponents. (Not exclusively mind you.)
Okay, but the Embalmed were just mindless zombies with little intelligence and certainly didn't fight in the organized manner that the Boros do. I put forth that its not really the same as fighting disciplined soldiers and knights like you have on Ravnica, which was the real point I was making. A zombie counts as a kind of monster, not a professional warrior, and at least four of the guilds (Boros, Azorius, Selesniya, and Gruul) all have armies or warrior traditions. Perhaps that's just my D&D experience talking, but it seems like a common distinction in fantasy fiction. Plus, the commander of the Eternals is Lilliana, and as powerful as she is her mentality is more that of a spellslinger than a general. Bolas himself has experience commanding armies, but he's not a necromancer, which is why he needs Lilliana. And we know she will betray him eventually, just like Tetsuo Umezawa way back in the day, or Sarkhan did in Tarkir block. Underlings betraying Bolas is one of his signature weaknesses, even. The other is mortal beings being more clever than he anticipates-- and I bet you that Niv-Mizzet is smarter than him.
Really, the only advantage that the Eternals should have besides the Lazotep (which we keep seeing fail to stop Ravincan weapons) is that they are undead and could conceivably regenerate, even though Wizards has abandoned that keyword. But its not like the Ravincans have never fought undead before, as the Golgari make extensive use of zombies and the Orzhov were literally run by ghosts until Kaya assassinated them. Plus the Boros literally have a brigade of Angels pioting a Death Star. People can handwring all they want about the Eternals using enchanted weapons or something, but so do the Ravincans! Enchanted weapons are the norm in Magic, as emphasized by Dominarian knights using stained glass swords and lances. They can talk about how elite the Eternals are supposed to be, but Bolas kept taking them in their youth while Ravincan soldiers were allowed to grow old enough to actually know what they are doing. It might be disappointing to hear, but by multiverse standards they probably aren't nearly as good as advertised.
This is an extremely interesting topic, but I'd put myself more on the side of the Eternals. Yes, legions, armies on ravnica have battled pretty much everything
Crazy experiments? Done
Crazy maniacs? Done
Demons? Done
Semideities? Done
Zombies? Done
Plant Zombies? Done
but Aliens? Not much
Because this is essentially an ALIEN invasion. These, as far as generic the parameter of HUMAN goes, are not Ravnica Humans, different biology probably...
And obviously as you all said, high special training, since the youngest age, they know how to battle alone and how to battle in team, they are versed in many kinds of magic: if the eternals were not covered in lazotep, they would have been better than the highest grade lich roaming the city, but these are even worse.
They are covered in some fricking blue metal. It's a WHOLE-body armor, (so basically more armored than Ravnicans);
They have steeds too, you can see chariots in some images (they have vehicles too, animals to use);
They have angels, ammit, demons, dragons, hippos, crocodiles, avians, cats, jackals (as variegated as Ravnicans)
They are NOT normal zombies because they can use past experience AND magic powers (basically "hard to kill" high trained soldiers);
They can organize, there are images in which they are seen walking in formations (highly organized);
They strategize, Liliana can't give fine strategy to them all, she can just give orders, then it's all on their ability to strategize;
They have alien strategies, they don't battle in patterns Ravnicans know or can predict (they are unknown and are terrifying).
You might say "so are Ravnicans strategies", yeah but Ravnicans can die while Eternals needs probably to be chipped in fine cubes to be rendered REALLY inoffensive, so...
The only things Ravnicans has that the Dreadhorde, supposedly, does not are:
Ideally the numbers(ideally, because if there are A LOT of not trained-to-battle citizens in the war, that means trained forces were not enough)
Innovative technology (well kind of)
They know the game table, it's their territory... (yes AND no, the world of Ravnica was accurately watched by his spies for quite some time: the terrain should have little to no secret for Bolas and consequently for the Eternals and Liliana)
For these reasons I see, in a scenario of "realistic" expectations with outcomes not dictated by the needs of any narrative arc, the Dreadhorde win on Ravnica.
But obviously the end of this war is ALL about the needs of the plot. Even only reading the flavour text of Makeshift Battalion you understand the ammount of "power of love" they are going to throw in...
This is an extremely interesting topic, but I'd put myself more on the side of the Eternals. Yes, legions, armies on ravnica have battled pretty much everything
Crazy experiments? Done
Crazy maniacs? Done
Demons? Done
Semideities? Done
Zombies? Done
Plant Zombies? Done
but Aliens? Not much
Because this is essentially an ALIEN invasion. These, as far as generic the parameter of HUMAN goes, are not Ravnica Humans, different biology probably...
They are not Phyrexians and they are not Eldrazi. They aren't even etherium users like Esperites. They are not aliens, because Magic has consistently shown that humans are humans are humans no matter which plane they come from. Elves, goblins, and vedalkin are a bit more variable, but even then not by a lot. That's the hole in your reasoning here. Its an invasion, but its a zombie invasion, and none of the races of Amonkhet are different enough from the races of Ravinca to effect their efficacy much. Both sides have (zombie)humans, both have (zombie)minotaurs, one side has zombie bird people while the other has angels (though there might be some unspoiled Amonkhet angels we haven't seen, I doubt it makes much difference), one side has snake people while the other has ogres, one side has khenra while the other has goblins, both have dragons, etc. It is at best a wash.
[And obviously as you all said, high special training, since the youngest age, they know how to battle alone and how to battle in team, they are versed in many kinds of magic: if the eternals were not covered in lazotep, they would have been better than the highest grade lich roaming the city, but these are even worse.
Again, it needs to be the right kind of training to be of any use against Ravincan soldiers. Ravincan soldiers fight in ranks, use armor that does not exist on Amonkhet (and is probably enchanted as well), use cavalry, have generals that are probably a lot more competent than Lilliana, have the home turf advantage (in a city no less), have plenty of practicing guildmages of their own, etc. I think the problem is that Hour of Devestation hyped them up so much that there was no way for the artists to show them being destroyed by any Ravincan fighter that wouldn't have people complaining about it. We already know that at the end of the story, Bolas will lose. That was always the plan. That's why I compare this to Invasion Block. The Eternals are supposed to be a formidable force that the natives of Amonkhet itself were unprepared to fight, but Ravinca is supposed to be a whole other story.
They are covered in some fricking blue metal. It's a WHOLE-body armor, (so basically more armored than Ravnicans);
IIRC, Lazotep is supposed to be a stone, not a metal. Besides, if we see swords stabbing through Lazotep, then its not exactly indestructible either way. If it were as strong as copper or bronze, then it would be great against Amonkhet's warriors but relatively crap against (enchanted) steel weapons.
They have steeds too, you can see chariots in some images (they have vehicles too, animals to use);
Chariots were historically defeated by cavalry. Chariots enable mobile archery, but riding on horseback allows that and more, and doesn't require as many horses. Basically, a chariot is like a battle taxi, in order for the charioteer to get into melee they have to get out of the chariot. The cavalryman on the other hand can actually fight from horseback.
They are NOT normal zombies because they can use past experience AND magic powers (basically "hard to kill" high trained soldiers);
I'll grant that. I just don't think its the right kind of training for this kind of war. Bolas may be smart, but he isn't humanoid and doesn't necessarily know what kind of training his warriors would need for this war. That's precisely the reason they were trained to be flexible, but a jack of all trades will often lose when pitted against a specialist.
They can organize, there are images in which they are seen walking in formations (highly organized);
So are the Boros, Azorious, and Selesnya. All of whom have the home turf advantage.
They strategize, Liliana can't give fine strategy to them all, she can just give orders, then it's all on their ability to strategize;
However, they aren't as smart as liches, and they don't know the terrain. They have no plan for attacking the city, they were just thrown into it wherever Bolas decided to open the planar gate. That gives them the element of surprise, but that advantage is always fleeting. Remember, this isn't the first interplanar invasion in Magic's history. And the Ravincans have two planeswalker allies who survived the previous Invasion (Teferi and Karn).
They have alien strategies, they don't battle in patterns Ravnicans know or can predict (they are unknown and are terrifying).
There are only so many battle strategies a humanoid army can deploy when their main fighting weapons are spears, swords, and bows. In the end, most cultures discover all of them independently. This is unlike battling the Phyrexians, who use genuinely alien tactics like corrupting the ecosystem around you and deploying bioweapons in massive numbers. That's why the Mirran's were screwed and the Dominarians needed someone like Urza who had studied Phyrexian strategies and technology for centuries looking for countermeasures. Same goes for the Eldrazi, who attack the very foundations of a plane. THAT is what an alien invasion looks like in Magic terms.
You might say "so are Ravnicans strategies", yeah but Ravnicans can die while Eternals needs probably to be chipped in fine cubes to be rendered REALLY inoffensive, so...
That' doesn't appear to be the case in the artwork, so I don't think that was or is the writer's intention. They mean for this to be a winnable war for the Ravincans, just like it was for Dominaria in Invasion block. That does not mean it will be easy.
The only things Ravnicans has that the Dreadhorde, supposedly, does not are:
Ideally the numbers(ideally, because if there are A LOT of not trained-to-battle citizens in the war, that means trained forces were not enough)
Innovative technology (well kind of)
They know the game table, it's their territory... (yes AND no, the world of Ravnica was accurately watched by his spies for quite some time: the terrain should have little to no secret for Bolas and consequently for the Eternals and Liliana)
For these reasons I see, in a scenario of "realistic" expectations with outcomes not dictated by the needs of any narrative arc, the Dreadhorde win on Ravnica.
But obviously the end of this war is ALL about the needs of the plot. Even only reading the flavour text of Makeshift Battalion you understand the ammount of "power of love" they are going to throw in...
You are forgetting one. They also have dozens of planeswalkers on their side who are either direct allies of the Guilds or at least have every reason to side against Bolas since his plan is to kill them all and take their power for himself. Don't underestimate that advantage; even the gods of Theros fear planeswalkers because the breadth of their experiences allows them to stand up even against gods. Elspeth once surprised Helios by counterspelling one of his spells, and there was nothing he could do about it because the magic she used was completely foreign to him. When you have a guy like Teferi simply editing time itself to remove entire armies of Eternals from history, you know they are no joke.
I mean, Ravnicans fight zombies. It's not like the Golgari, Orhov, Dimir, and Rakdos don't have undead. Yes they're different, but we're talking about a civilization that has stood for over ten thousand years, that's a ridiculously long time. They've seen more than their fair share of "weird" stuff. The biggest advantage the Eternals have is the surprise factor, as obviously the Ravnicans aren't sitting around expecting an invasion from the middle of city hall. That and one of the guilds has kind of firmly cemented itself as pro-Bolas (Azorius). I wish that they had outfitted the Eternals with gear from Kaladesh, would make story sense and make this a bit more of an interplanar affair
I'll add for clarifications purpose that I'm saying I don't think the "realistic" scenario is the Eternals winning.
All of the Boros are attacking with Frontline Medic, so none of them can die. 😉
In all seriousness, I think the gameplay works well with the lore here. Most externals are 4/4s, and would be able to kill the weaker members of the guild, but would get wrecked by other, like Dragons, Angels, Demons, Wurms, Sphinxs, ghosts, Gorgons, Ogres, Horrors, and Hydras. The externals May have experience, but they’ve never fought a weird before. Also, the enternals can get bottlenecked through the portal, and Ravnica has plenty of firepower to throw at a bottleneck.
In the end I’m not sure how much it matters because it looks like Bolas will lose by betrayal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
For a good reason as to why the Eternals are not a threat to Ravnica I simply direct you to the flavor text of Cyclonic Rift. One Izzet mage is worth a legion of Eternals while Eternals were trained in hand to hand combat and maybe some magic but nothing on the scale which Ravnican mages would be capable of. Add to that legions of Angels piloting a what amounts to a small Death Star, their own incalculable mass of golgari zombies, biologically enhanced Simic Super Soldiers, and the Selesnya and Gruul bringing the very plane itself to bare and I'd say that if it was war on Ravnica that Bolas had actually been after then he came under-prepared. but as was said earlier Bolas doesn't actually care about the attack on the plane itself. It's just a diversion.
Edit: Why would the eternals have Kaladesh gear? Tezzeret was pretty well run off by Mama Nalaar and the Gatewatch. And even if Tezz could replicate the works from Kaladesh he certainly couldn't do it at such a rate as to equip even a small fraction of the eternal army. I quess they have Kaladeshi thopters on their side because Dovin and the Azorius have been producing them.
For a good reason as to why the Eternals are not a threat to Ravnica I simply direct you to the flavor text of Cyclonic Rift. One Izzet mage is worth a legion of Eternals while Eternals were trained in hand to hand combat and maybe some magic but nothing on the scale which Ravnican mages would be capable of. Add to that legions of Angels piloting a what amounts to a small Death Star, their own incalculable mass of golgari zombies, biologically enhanced Simic Super Soldiers, and the Selesnya and Gruul bringing the very plane itself to bare and I'd say that if it was war on Ravnica that Bolas had actually been after then he came under-prepared.
That was never the point in the first place. Obviously the eternals wouldn't get to steamroll Ravnica like that, numbers-wise alone, but the problem is that the eternals are defeated by entities they shouldn't be defeated by, such as random trolls and druids with specifically no military training. You could argue that Tolsimir as a legendary should be able to kill three eternals in one strike of his sword, but I'd say that's overkill. If Ravnicans are shown to defeat eternals, it shouldn't come across as trivial and effortless.
They are not Phyrexians and they are not Eldrazi. They aren't even etherium users like Esperites. Elves, goblins, and vedalkin are a bit more variable, but even then not by a lot. That's the hole in your reasoning here. Its an invasion, but its a zombie invasion, and none of the races of Amonkhet are different enough from the races of Ravinca to effect their efficacy much.
Alien is different than monstrous or inconceivable (they both are aliens but you think of other characteristics), if an army of blue metal coated humans came here on our earth to ravage it, they would still be aliens. But for all purpouses they are alien zombies, Ravnicans know nothing of them, know not what are their capabilities, they know nothing of their home world, they don't know their weaknesses...
Both sides have (zombie)humans, both have (zombie)minotaurs, one side has zombie bird people while the other has angels (though there might be some unspoiled Amonkhet angels we haven't seen, I doubt it makes much difference), one side has snake people while the other has ogres, one side has khenra while the other has goblins, both have dragons, etc.
Already said in my original post that they are both variegated.
IIRC, Lazotep is supposed to be a stone, not a metal. Besides, if we see swords stabbing through Lazotep, then its not exactly indestructible either way. If it were as strong as copper or bronze, then it would be great against Amonkhet's warriors but relatively crap against (enchanted) steel weapons.
For this we have pure speculation on which we can say anything, but lazotep is described as a mineral, which is fairly vague, as metals are found in mineral form too. Never said "indestructible" but could, in form of an alloy, which we can only speculate about, give an armor that might be better than a modular boros armor for the simple fact it is whole-body. Then again I cannot use images of the cards to speculate a realistic scenario about the fusion temperature of lazotep or the grade of resistance against other metals, not only because those cards are directed by the storyline, but we effectively don't know the precise characteristics of metals on any plane, bronze should be different on different planes, as are ecosystems and such. These are just those question which worldbuilding does not usually asks, like "If I planeswalk will I die of severe infections because all the bacteria of my flora died in the planeswalk?"...
Chariots were historically defeated by cavalry. Chariots enable mobile archery, but riding on horseback allows that and more, and doesn't require as many horses. Basically, a chariot is like a battle taxi, in order for the charioteer to get into melee they have to get out of the chariot. The cavalryman on the other hand can actually fight from horseback.
If i were a battlemage I'd prefer a battle taxi every day AND chariots were devised after normal cavalry: if I see a chariot I directly assume they already have a fairly well knowledge of normal cavalry.
I'll grant that. I just don't think its the right kind of training for this kind of war. Bolas may be smart, but he isn't humanoid and doesn't necessarily know what kind of training his warriors would need for this war. That's precisely the reason they were trained to be flexible, but a jack of all trades will often lose when pitted against a specialist.
As much as Ravnica goes, they are not a specialized nor a cohese army. They are an army of enemies specialized in battling each other, knowing only the strategies of other Ravnicans and how to battle them. If they are winning is just because of plot and "united we stand-we thought we were enemies but we were neighbours all along". Also they will be startled, eternals are unknown beings, with unknown magic, with alien visage... On the other hands the dreadhorde is WITHOUT emotions, without fear, with only a blind fanaticism which can only sharpen their strategies, rendering them relentless in front of any wurm or hellion. An enormous point in war casualties is that companions care for the dead, but eternals don't, they don't care they lost one or two or hundreds, they do not rest they do not mourn, they can't be affected by emotions, they have always full energy...
They mean for this to be a winnable war for the Ravincans, just like it was for Dominaria in Invasion block.
You said it
You are forgetting one. They also have dozens of planeswalkers on their side who are either direct allies of the Guilds or at least have every reason to side against Bolas since his plan is to kill them all and take their power for himself. Don't underestimate that advantage
I was not forgetting that, I was avoiding that: the question I was answering was about Ravnicans winning such a war, not about them PLUS the whole number of alien planeswalkers actually present on the plane.
For a good reason as to why the Eternals are not a threat to Ravnica I simply direct you to the flavor text of Cyclonic Rift. One Izzet mage is worth a legion of Eternals while Eternals were trained in hand to hand combat and maybe some magic but nothing on the scale which Ravnican mages would be capable of. Add to that legions of Angels piloting a what amounts to a small Death Star, their own incalculable mass of golgari zombies, biologically enhanced Simic Super Soldiers, and the Selesnya and Gruul bringing the very plane itself to bare and I'd say that if it was war on Ravnica that Bolas had actually been after then he came under-prepared. but as was said earlier Bolas doesn't actually care about the attack on the plane itself. It's just a diversion.
Edit: Why would the eternals have Kaladesh gear? Tezzeret was pretty well run off by Mama Nalaar and the Gatewatch. And even if Tezz could replicate the works from Kaladesh he certainly couldn't do it at such a rate as to equip even a small fraction of the eternal army. I quess they have Kaladeshi thopters on their side because Dovin and the Azorius have been producing them.
Theoretically in the scenario where this was a thing it would be revealed that Tezzeret had been procuring gear from Kaladesh during his stay to better arm the Eternals. He was there for an extended period of time after all, so something like that seems feasible. Obviously it didn't happen, but it's honestly the only thing I can think of to level the playing field.
For a good reason as to why the Eternals are not a threat to Ravnica I simply direct you to the flavor text of Cyclonic Rift. One Izzet mage is worth a legion of Eternals while Eternals were trained in hand to hand combat and maybe some magic but nothing on the scale which Ravnican mages would be capable of. Add to that legions of Angels piloting a what amounts to a small Death Star, their own incalculable mass of golgari zombies, biologically enhanced Simic Super Soldiers, and the Selesnya and Gruul bringing the very plane itself to bare and I'd say that if it was war on Ravnica that Bolas had actually been after then he came under-prepared.
That was never the point in the first place. Obviously the eternals wouldn't get to steamroll Ravnica like that, numbers-wise alone, but the problem is that the eternals are defeated by entities they shouldn't be defeated by, such as random trolls and druids with specifically no military training. You could argue that Tolsimir as a legendary should be able to kill three eternals in one strike of his sword, but I'd say that's overkill. If Ravnicans are shown to defeat eternals, it shouldn't come across as trivial and effortless.
I mean... why though? The Eternals are outnumbered and outgunned, and everyone on Ravnica, even ordinary civilians, are trying to fight them. Not even counting the Planeswalkers roaming around who are exceptionally powerful in their own right, and the Legendaries the guilds have. It's not like Zendikar where the Eldrazi are built up as being a big deal, and honestly nothing about the Eternals really indicates to me that they should be a threat. If anything the only real odd part is what brings the Planeswalkers to Ravnica to begin with, and how exactly the tide will turn, even if it's only for a bit.
If Bolas' objective is to acquire sparks, then war is just a means to that end. Not unlike the Maelstrom on Alara.
I'm curious about are the holes in Bolas' plans. Specifically what events he can and cannot anticipate.
Ral and Vraska betraying him shouldn't be too much of a surprise after they see what he is doing to their home. (Regardless of Jace restoring Vraska's memories).
Liliana's betrayal might be slightly more surprising, simply because she has so much at stake. I wonder if she gets some advice from Ob Nixilis on using the chain veil.
Tezzeret will turn as soon as the tide of war does.
I think Bolas' biggest blindspots is Ugin not being dead. But did someone mention something about Bolas being suspicious about Ugin's death?
I think Bolas' biggest blindspots is Ugin not being dead. But did someone mention something about Bolas being suspicious about Ugin's death?
As far as I remember, after Bolas 'killed' Ugin in the Meditation realm and Ugin came back to life later, Bolas was likewise wondering whether Ugin would rise again after he killed him on Tarkir. In original timeline when Bolas visited, Ugin would be dead and bones. In new timeline, Ugin was cocooned, and Bolas wanted to discover if Ugin yet lived, but was scared off.
Here's me issue with this time travel thing they said was only effecting Tarkir. There's a big difference between a Bolas who sees Ugin's skeleton and a Bolas who sees Ugin's hedron cocoon. Cocoon Bolas would go through the Multiverse wondering if Ugin still lived inside the weird hedron cocoon, and Bones Bolas would go through the Multiverse happy that Ugin is verifiably dead.
These two Bolases would behave *very* differently over the next 1000 years until Sarkhan is born and goes back in time. Their plans and their actions would greatly diverge. So how can Wizards say the time travel impact is only on Tarkir? It can't possible be so. It changed Bolas.
So the question becomes: If Sarkhan was born after the Mending, and Bolas set things in motion to regain his power immediately after the Mending and before Sarkhan was born, what impact did the time travel have on Bolas' plans? He obviously still set everything up on Amonkhet, and did everything else the 'same' up to when Sarkhan went back in time. Or did he?
This is why I don't like poorly executed time travel stories.
As far as I remember, after Bolas 'killed' Ugin in the Meditation realm and Ugin came back to life later, Bolas was likewise wondering whether Ugin would rise again after he killed him on Tarkir. In original timeline when Bolas visited, Ugin would be dead and bones. In new timeline, Ugin was cocooned, and Bolas wanted to discover if Ugin yet lived, but was scared off.
Here's me issue with this time travel thing they said was only effecting Tarkir. There's a big difference between a Bolas who sees Ugin's skeleton and a Bolas who sees Ugin's hedron cocoon. Cocoon Bolas would go through the Multiverse wondering if Ugin still lived inside the weird hedron cocoon, and Bones Bolas would go through the Multiverse happy that Ugin is verifiably dead.
These two Bolases would behave *very* differently over the next 1000 years until Sarkhan is born and goes back in time. Their plans and their actions would greatly diverge. So how can Wizards say the time travel impact is only on Tarkir? It can't possible be so. It changed Bolas.
So the question becomes: If Sarkhan was born after the Mending, and Bolas set things in motion to regain his power immediately after the Mending and before Sarkhan was born, what impact did the time travel have on Bolas' plans? He obviously still set everything up on Amonkhet, and did everything else the 'same' up to when Sarkhan went back in time. Or did he?
This is why I don't like poorly executed time travel stories.
Specifically they said that planeswalkers would be vehicles for the change. We don’t know if Bolas is accounting for Ugin or not. We know that he knows something weird is happening with Ugin and we know that Ugin has taken active measures to prevent Bolas knowing that Ugin is back. If they want to maintain Bolas’ character then they should have him accounting for Ugin in his plans just because there’s a chance that he could be a problem.
If we had more insight into things, say via more weekly web fiction, maybe we all wouldn’t be so damn confused about all this stuff. Even as someone who normally defends wizards I think they’ve handles the story with the crossover of the novel and the online stuff pretty poorly.
If we had more insight into things, say via more weekly web fiction, maybe we all wouldn’t be so damn confused about all this stuff. Even as someone who normally defends wizards I think they’ve handles the story with the crossover of the novel and the online stuff pretty poorly.
Absolutely. I, for one, didn't notice there were little "spotlight act #" under some cards depicting events...
If we had more insight into things, say via more weekly web fiction, maybe we all wouldn’t be so damn confused about all this stuff. Even as someone who normally defends wizards I think they’ve handles the story with the crossover of the novel and the online stuff pretty poorly.
Absolutely. I, for one, didn't notice there were little "spotlight act #" under some cards depicting events...
You just blew my mind.
Looks like:
Act 1: Invasion
Act 2: Ravnica pushback, power of friendship.
My only issue with the Eternals being a threat is one of logistics. The whole Amonkhet scheme has been going on for 50 years, and the trials are implied to take several weeks/months to complete so realistically there should be a very limited number of trials per year.
The upper estimates at most would mean an army of around 1000.
My only issue with the Eternals being a threat is one of logistics. The whole Amonkhet scheme has been going on for 50 years, and the trials are implied to take several weeks/months to complete so realistically there should be a very limited number of trials per year.
The upper estimates at most would mean an army of around 1000.
Ravnica has a lot more than just that.
Well, for one, Bolas didn't create the trials from whole cloth. He merely corrupted and twisted them to his ends. Meaning that this system of training and becoming worthy already existed. Bolas simply sped the process up. So when the Hours finally came the necropolis was likely full of people who had passed the trials before Bolas came. And as was said, earlier in the thread, the eternals aren't only comprised of the single victor of each Trial of Zeal. Anyone who made it to the trial was sent to become an eternal. Add in the various non-humanoid creatures that were eternalized and you've got a serious army. Had they gone to any other plane they may have been a threat. But on Ravnica it's just Tuesday.
i just love how the gyilds are mobilizing their best secret weapons.
Boros Parhelio.n i was like, yeah boros army really been itching wanting to fight something for a long time
And awakening VituGhazi maaaaaan, thats awesome. Man thats some movie *****. Feels like that moment where treebeard start owning Isengard.
I hope Rakdos mobilizes a fired up Rakdos! "It's been a long time since the last extraPlanar Invasion, this is gonna be FUUUUN"
Too bad the obzedorks are dead (dead er), because merciless eviction would have evicted Bolas and friends hahaba.
This set is awesome. Cant wait for Big Daddy Rakdos to go ap***** good guy vs Azorius or Gruul.
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So... A. But it will be presented to us as though he was defeated, probably with someone like Ugin or Jace to come out, put on a pair of glasses, and say "You know, dear, his yearning was as much as his idiocy, not accounting that maybe the multiverse is effing tired of him" ...Then 9 sets later POOF he reappears out of thin air proclaming himself, rightfully this time, the true god (maybe even in the same exact moment Phyrexia is about to invade Dominaria, which would actually happen even sooner than 9 sets away...)
If this was a conflict in the real world, I'd agree with most of your points. However, we don't have all the facts and information available to really make a valid point about things such as bronze weapons vs plate armor. For all we know, it's magicalbronze that has been enchanted specifically to be able to cut through plate armor.. Or, the eternals have their own magic that they use to do it, the sword just being the instrument of that magic (like a wand), or bolas gave them extra abilities, etc.. Alternatively, they may be mostly unkillable, able to keep repairing or getting back up. Due to other enchantments either Bolas, or one of the Eternalized gods, has put on them.
I understand you were just making explanations for the art all showing the Ravnicans winning for the most part, and I agree its not unreasonable that they could defeat them based on technological disparities. I think it's been shown this way because, in small numbers the Ravnicans are beating Eternals, and the cards are showing the exceptional moments where this happens. However, it doesn't matter. The Eternals are out numbering them. I don't know where anyone was getting the numbers for the Eternals, but the pictures make it look like hundreds of thousands of Eternals, at least. Which, by the way, are only invading a specific portion of Ravnica. Ravnica as a whole might be one giant city, spanning the entire plane, but the majority of their population is irrelevant if the Eternals are only in this area. Imagine if someone invaded Manhattan with 150,000 troops INSTANTLY, with no warning, our armies scattered across the world would be mostly meaningless. They'd have control of the city within a day or two, which is all Bolas would need if he was looking to control that specific portion of Ravnica. Now, we know he doesn't want to control Ravnica, only to kill planeswalkers, but the planeswalkers didn't know that. So, most of them would likely concentrate in that area of the plane to fight him when they showed up.
The way I think it will go, is the Ravnicans seem to be doing well in their fights against Eternals. They are dropping them relatively easily, but the horde keeps coming for some reason. They start thinking maybe he just has an infinite number of them, constantly coming through the planar bridge, until they realize that every Eternal they seem to defeat, is just getting back up and coming at them. They are being worn down. Their biggest guns show up (Parhelion II, Rakdos, Niv-Mizzet, etc..) and make some headway against the horde, but then are outmatched by some of the Eternalized Gods (and I'm hoping Bolas brought the Scarab, Locust and Scorpion Gods along with zombie Bontu, Oketra, Rhonas, and Kefnet). This will raise the stakes and make it seem like Ravnica is definitely going to lose until the Gatewatch and Co. are able to find the weaknesses in Bolas power structure. Nissa helps defeat/alter some of the gods, Vraska gets her memory back and is critical in finding a way to keep Eternals down (she petrifies them? or the golgari just know how to keep something dead), Niv-Mizzet gets reborn and his power helps fight the gods, Jace + Lavinia find the loophole in Bolas contract on Lilli (altho I'm still hoping Dovin has a bigger plan and betrays Bolas, cause it'd be perfect for him to help with the contract), etc..
Okay, but the Embalmed were just mindless zombies with little intelligence and certainly didn't fight in the organized manner that the Boros do. I put forth that its not really the same as fighting disciplined soldiers and knights like you have on Ravnica, which was the real point I was making. A zombie counts as a kind of monster, not a professional warrior, and at least four of the guilds (Boros, Azorius, Selesniya, and Gruul) all have armies or warrior traditions. Perhaps that's just my D&D experience talking, but it seems like a common distinction in fantasy fiction. Plus, the commander of the Eternals is Lilliana, and as powerful as she is her mentality is more that of a spellslinger than a general. Bolas himself has experience commanding armies, but he's not a necromancer, which is why he needs Lilliana. And we know she will betray him eventually, just like Tetsuo Umezawa way back in the day, or Sarkhan did in Tarkir block. Underlings betraying Bolas is one of his signature weaknesses, even. The other is mortal beings being more clever than he anticipates-- and I bet you that Niv-Mizzet is smarter than him.
Really, the only advantage that the Eternals should have besides the Lazotep (which we keep seeing fail to stop Ravincan weapons) is that they are undead and could conceivably regenerate, even though Wizards has abandoned that keyword. But its not like the Ravincans have never fought undead before, as the Golgari make extensive use of zombies and the Orzhov were literally run by ghosts until Kaya assassinated them. Plus the Boros literally have a brigade of Angels pioting a Death Star. People can handwring all they want about the Eternals using enchanted weapons or something, but so do the Ravincans! Enchanted weapons are the norm in Magic, as emphasized by Dominarian knights using stained glass swords and lances. They can talk about how elite the Eternals are supposed to be, but Bolas kept taking them in their youth while Ravincan soldiers were allowed to grow old enough to actually know what they are doing. It might be disappointing to hear, but by multiverse standards they probably aren't nearly as good as advertised.
Crazy experiments? Done
Crazy maniacs? Done
Demons? Done
Semideities? Done
Zombies? Done
Plant Zombies? Done
but Aliens? Not much
Because this is essentially an ALIEN invasion. These, as far as generic the parameter of HUMAN goes, are not Ravnica Humans, different biology probably...
And obviously as you all said, high special training, since the youngest age, they know how to battle alone and how to battle in team, they are versed in many kinds of magic: if the eternals were not covered in lazotep, they would have been better than the highest grade lich roaming the city, but these are even worse.
But obviously the end of this war is ALL about the needs of the plot. Even only reading the flavour text of Makeshift Battalion you understand the ammount of "power of love" they are going to throw in...
They are not Phyrexians and they are not Eldrazi. They aren't even etherium users like Esperites. They are not aliens, because Magic has consistently shown that humans are humans are humans no matter which plane they come from. Elves, goblins, and vedalkin are a bit more variable, but even then not by a lot. That's the hole in your reasoning here. Its an invasion, but its a zombie invasion, and none of the races of Amonkhet are different enough from the races of Ravinca to effect their efficacy much. Both sides have (zombie)humans, both have (zombie)minotaurs, one side has zombie bird people while the other has angels (though there might be some unspoiled Amonkhet angels we haven't seen, I doubt it makes much difference), one side has snake people while the other has ogres, one side has khenra while the other has goblins, both have dragons, etc. It is at best a wash.
Again, it needs to be the right kind of training to be of any use against Ravincan soldiers. Ravincan soldiers fight in ranks, use armor that does not exist on Amonkhet (and is probably enchanted as well), use cavalry, have generals that are probably a lot more competent than Lilliana, have the home turf advantage (in a city no less), have plenty of practicing guildmages of their own, etc. I think the problem is that Hour of Devestation hyped them up so much that there was no way for the artists to show them being destroyed by any Ravincan fighter that wouldn't have people complaining about it. We already know that at the end of the story, Bolas will lose. That was always the plan. That's why I compare this to Invasion Block. The Eternals are supposed to be a formidable force that the natives of Amonkhet itself were unprepared to fight, but Ravinca is supposed to be a whole other story.
IIRC, Lazotep is supposed to be a stone, not a metal. Besides, if we see swords stabbing through Lazotep, then its not exactly indestructible either way. If it were as strong as copper or bronze, then it would be great against Amonkhet's warriors but relatively crap against (enchanted) steel weapons.
Chariots were historically defeated by cavalry. Chariots enable mobile archery, but riding on horseback allows that and more, and doesn't require as many horses. Basically, a chariot is like a battle taxi, in order for the charioteer to get into melee they have to get out of the chariot. The cavalryman on the other hand can actually fight from horseback.
I'll grant that. I just don't think its the right kind of training for this kind of war. Bolas may be smart, but he isn't humanoid and doesn't necessarily know what kind of training his warriors would need for this war. That's precisely the reason they were trained to be flexible, but a jack of all trades will often lose when pitted against a specialist.
So are the Boros, Azorious, and Selesnya. All of whom have the home turf advantage.
However, they aren't as smart as liches, and they don't know the terrain. They have no plan for attacking the city, they were just thrown into it wherever Bolas decided to open the planar gate. That gives them the element of surprise, but that advantage is always fleeting. Remember, this isn't the first interplanar invasion in Magic's history. And the Ravincans have two planeswalker allies who survived the previous Invasion (Teferi and Karn).
There are only so many battle strategies a humanoid army can deploy when their main fighting weapons are spears, swords, and bows. In the end, most cultures discover all of them independently. This is unlike battling the Phyrexians, who use genuinely alien tactics like corrupting the ecosystem around you and deploying bioweapons in massive numbers. That's why the Mirran's were screwed and the Dominarians needed someone like Urza who had studied Phyrexian strategies and technology for centuries looking for countermeasures. Same goes for the Eldrazi, who attack the very foundations of a plane. THAT is what an alien invasion looks like in Magic terms.
That' doesn't appear to be the case in the artwork, so I don't think that was or is the writer's intention. They mean for this to be a winnable war for the Ravincans, just like it was for Dominaria in Invasion block. That does not mean it will be easy.
You are forgetting one. They also have dozens of planeswalkers on their side who are either direct allies of the Guilds or at least have every reason to side against Bolas since his plan is to kill them all and take their power for himself. Don't underestimate that advantage; even the gods of Theros fear planeswalkers because the breadth of their experiences allows them to stand up even against gods. Elspeth once surprised Helios by counterspelling one of his spells, and there was nothing he could do about it because the magic she used was completely foreign to him. When you have a guy like Teferi simply editing time itself to remove entire armies of Eternals from history, you know they are no joke.
I'll add for clarifications purpose that I'm saying I don't think the "realistic" scenario is the Eternals winning.
Chandra's Triumph
welp based on this dovin is one of the walkers to pull a short straw
and this "triumph" thing is a cycle
jaces (blue) might be the restoring vraskas memory and nissa or vivien (green) might be taking domri rade donw/out
In all seriousness, I think the gameplay works well with the lore here. Most externals are 4/4s, and would be able to kill the weaker members of the guild, but would get wrecked by other, like Dragons, Angels, Demons, Wurms, Sphinxs, ghosts, Gorgons, Ogres, Horrors, and Hydras. The externals May have experience, but they’ve never fought a weird before. Also, the enternals can get bottlenecked through the portal, and Ravnica has plenty of firepower to throw at a bottleneck.
In the end I’m not sure how much it matters because it looks like Bolas will lose by betrayal.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Edit: Why would the eternals have Kaladesh gear? Tezzeret was pretty well run off by Mama Nalaar and the Gatewatch. And even if Tezz could replicate the works from Kaladesh he certainly couldn't do it at such a rate as to equip even a small fraction of the eternal army. I quess they have Kaladeshi thopters on their side because Dovin and the Azorius have been producing them.
That was never the point in the first place. Obviously the eternals wouldn't get to steamroll Ravnica like that, numbers-wise alone, but the problem is that the eternals are defeated by entities they shouldn't be defeated by, such as random trolls and druids with specifically no military training. You could argue that Tolsimir as a legendary should be able to kill three eternals in one strike of his sword, but I'd say that's overkill. If Ravnicans are shown to defeat eternals, it shouldn't come across as trivial and effortless.
Alien is different than monstrous or inconceivable (they both are aliens but you think of other characteristics), if an army of blue metal coated humans came here on our earth to ravage it, they would still be aliens. But for all purpouses they are alien zombies, Ravnicans know nothing of them, know not what are their capabilities, they know nothing of their home world, they don't know their weaknesses...
Already said in my original post that they are both variegated.
For this we have pure speculation on which we can say anything, but lazotep is described as a mineral, which is fairly vague, as metals are found in mineral form too. Never said "indestructible" but could, in form of an alloy, which we can only speculate about, give an armor that might be better than a modular boros armor for the simple fact it is whole-body. Then again I cannot use images of the cards to speculate a realistic scenario about the fusion temperature of lazotep or the grade of resistance against other metals, not only because those cards are directed by the storyline, but we effectively don't know the precise characteristics of metals on any plane, bronze should be different on different planes, as are ecosystems and such. These are just those question which worldbuilding does not usually asks, like "If I planeswalk will I die of severe infections because all the bacteria of my flora died in the planeswalk?"...
If i were a battlemage I'd prefer a battle taxi every day AND chariots were devised after normal cavalry: if I see a chariot I directly assume they already have a fairly well knowledge of normal cavalry.
As much as Ravnica goes, they are not a specialized nor a cohese army. They are an army of enemies specialized in battling each other, knowing only the strategies of other Ravnicans and how to battle them. If they are winning is just because of plot and "united we stand-we thought we were enemies but we were neighbours all along". Also they will be startled, eternals are unknown beings, with unknown magic, with alien visage... On the other hands the dreadhorde is WITHOUT emotions, without fear, with only a blind fanaticism which can only sharpen their strategies, rendering them relentless in front of any wurm or hellion. An enormous point in war casualties is that companions care for the dead, but eternals don't, they don't care they lost one or two or hundreds, they do not rest they do not mourn, they can't be affected by emotions, they have always full energy...
You said it
I was not forgetting that, I was avoiding that: the question I was answering was about Ravnicans winning such a war, not about them PLUS the whole number of alien planeswalkers actually present on the plane.
Theoretically in the scenario where this was a thing it would be revealed that Tezzeret had been procuring gear from Kaladesh during his stay to better arm the Eternals. He was there for an extended period of time after all, so something like that seems feasible. Obviously it didn't happen, but it's honestly the only thing I can think of to level the playing field.
I mean... why though? The Eternals are outnumbered and outgunned, and everyone on Ravnica, even ordinary civilians, are trying to fight them. Not even counting the Planeswalkers roaming around who are exceptionally powerful in their own right, and the Legendaries the guilds have. It's not like Zendikar where the Eldrazi are built up as being a big deal, and honestly nothing about the Eternals really indicates to me that they should be a threat. If anything the only real odd part is what brings the Planeswalkers to Ravnica to begin with, and how exactly the tide will turn, even if it's only for a bit.
I'm curious about are the holes in Bolas' plans. Specifically what events he can and cannot anticipate.
Ral and Vraska betraying him shouldn't be too much of a surprise after they see what he is doing to their home. (Regardless of Jace restoring Vraska's memories).
Liliana's betrayal might be slightly more surprising, simply because she has so much at stake. I wonder if she gets some advice from Ob Nixilis on using the chain veil.
Tezzeret will turn as soon as the tide of war does.
I think Bolas' biggest blindspots is Ugin not being dead. But did someone mention something about Bolas being suspicious about Ugin's death?
The only lesson I've learned from all of this is don't f*#k with Ravnica.
As far as I remember, after Bolas 'killed' Ugin in the Meditation realm and Ugin came back to life later, Bolas was likewise wondering whether Ugin would rise again after he killed him on Tarkir. In original timeline when Bolas visited, Ugin would be dead and bones. In new timeline, Ugin was cocooned, and Bolas wanted to discover if Ugin yet lived, but was scared off.
Here's me issue with this time travel thing they said was only effecting Tarkir. There's a big difference between a Bolas who sees Ugin's skeleton and a Bolas who sees Ugin's hedron cocoon. Cocoon Bolas would go through the Multiverse wondering if Ugin still lived inside the weird hedron cocoon, and Bones Bolas would go through the Multiverse happy that Ugin is verifiably dead.
These two Bolases would behave *very* differently over the next 1000 years until Sarkhan is born and goes back in time. Their plans and their actions would greatly diverge. So how can Wizards say the time travel impact is only on Tarkir? It can't possible be so. It changed Bolas.
So the question becomes: If Sarkhan was born after the Mending, and Bolas set things in motion to regain his power immediately after the Mending and before Sarkhan was born, what impact did the time travel have on Bolas' plans? He obviously still set everything up on Amonkhet, and did everything else the 'same' up to when Sarkhan went back in time. Or did he?
This is why I don't like poorly executed time travel stories.
Specifically they said that planeswalkers would be vehicles for the change. We don’t know if Bolas is accounting for Ugin or not. We know that he knows something weird is happening with Ugin and we know that Ugin has taken active measures to prevent Bolas knowing that Ugin is back. If they want to maintain Bolas’ character then they should have him accounting for Ugin in his plans just because there’s a chance that he could be a problem.
If we had more insight into things, say via more weekly web fiction, maybe we all wouldn’t be so damn confused about all this stuff. Even as someone who normally defends wizards I think they’ve handles the story with the crossover of the novel and the online stuff pretty poorly.
Absolutely. I, for one, didn't notice there were little "spotlight act #" under some cards depicting events...
You just blew my mind.
Looks like:
Act 1: Invasion
Act 2: Ravnica pushback, power of friendship.
How many Acts do you think? 5?
The upper estimates at most would mean an army of around 1000.
Ravnica has a lot more than just that.
Well, for one, Bolas didn't create the trials from whole cloth. He merely corrupted and twisted them to his ends. Meaning that this system of training and becoming worthy already existed. Bolas simply sped the process up. So when the Hours finally came the necropolis was likely full of people who had passed the trials before Bolas came. And as was said, earlier in the thread, the eternals aren't only comprised of the single victor of each Trial of Zeal. Anyone who made it to the trial was sent to become an eternal. Add in the various non-humanoid creatures that were eternalized and you've got a serious army. Had they gone to any other plane they may have been a threat. But on Ravnica it's just Tuesday.
Boros Parhelio.n i was like, yeah boros army really been itching wanting to fight something for a long time
And awakening VituGhazi maaaaaan, thats awesome. Man thats some movie *****. Feels like that moment where treebeard start owning Isengard.
I hope Rakdos mobilizes a fired up Rakdos! "It's been a long time since the last extraPlanar Invasion, this is gonna be FUUUUN"
Too bad the obzedorks are dead (dead er), because merciless eviction would have evicted Bolas and friends hahaba.
This set is awesome. Cant wait for Big Daddy Rakdos to go ap***** good guy vs Azorius or Gruul.