So my original pet theory was that Ugin would ultimately take out Bolas like Flynn takes out CLU in Tron Legacy. I had heard War will happen on more than one plane, and I thought it might happen in the Meditation realm.
However, I was perusing Maro's Tumblr and he says that the mythic walkers are the main players of the story (Bolas, Gideon, Liliana), and that Ugin will be rare because he's only a supporting character, with 'a role to play.' Which is kind of disappointing, after the core set last year set up their history.
So if what Maro says is true, then it's Liliana and Gideon that are most likely to take down Bolas? And I think Maro also said the other plane isn't Amonkhet. So which plane might it be? Dominaria?
Since you brought it up, the Meditation Realm actually makes the most sense - perhaps the final battle against Bolas will be fought there, or alternatively, there will be some sort of epilogue set there (e.g. if Bolas is defeated but survives or is sealed away).
Every one here seem to be sure of Bolas defeat and death.
As a big fan of him, I would be disappointed if he died and if that the case, I hope it's not a stupid character with a toy sword like Gideon or jace that achieve that but no less than Ugin. Even if he's not central to the story,he could at least be the turning tide of the battle.
But now, I want to be more positive and I think Bolas will not die. Again.
- Because him losing and dying is.. too much evident.
- We know the elder spell will be a card, and so will probably be casted by Bolas
- He has plot hole with the eldrazi and phyrexian, like a lot of other character
- I really doubt a lot of planeswalker character from the story will die. Those whose spark will serve to cast the random spell will be random walkers
- Because he's bolas and other character are way too stupid to understand his plan and the menace of him returning one day is good for the story (Like it is for Phyrexian or Eldrazi)
My bet would be :
- Bolas manage to cast the elder spell and ascend to godhood again
- Ugin show up and lock Bolas in a time loop. Bolas think he's won and is a god, but unbeknown to him, he's going to revive that victory and the day he cast the elder spell for eternity. Thus removing him as a threat.. for now
- Tezzeret will trigger Bolas "vengeance plan" planned in case of its defeat and open the planar bridge to phyrexia
I foresee:
-those dead remain dead and we'll have lots of deads
-Bolas' plan will succeed, he'll ascend to become a god BUT while the multiverse premending could easily sustain the presence of a planeswalker of that weight, now the multiverse rejects the new entity of Bolas and so he apparently disappears. Leaving everyone there think he is dead. Obviously he is not dead and he just needs time to accustom the multiverse to his refound powers, so in little time he will come back menacing as ever. THIS leaves Tezzeret free to roam and rummage New Phyrexia.
I foresee:
-those dead remain dead and we'll have lots of deads
-Bolas' plan will succeed, he'll ascend to become a god BUT while the multiverse premending could easily sustain the presence of a planeswalker of that weight, now the multiverse rejects the new entity of Bolas and so he apparently disappears. Leaving everyone there think he is dead. Obviously he is not dead and he just needs time to accustom the multiverse to his refound powers, so in little time he will come back menacing as ever. THIS leaves Tezzeret free to roam and rummage New Phyrexia.
This can't happen.
It would be removing the spark from almost the entirety of MTG's planeswalker character roster trapping them on a single plane. Bolas literally cannot "win" without plot shenanigans to give sparks back to all/most/at bare minimum the Gatewatch of the other planeswalker characters present, and at that point, why bother having a narrative of stealing their sparks at all?
Beyond that it destroys any plausibility for any future Bolas arcs they might want to have. If virtually all other known planeswalkers in the multiverse can't stop him now, in his current neowalker state, then there's simply no reasonable way they could ever thwart the plans of a Godwalker Bolas.
Bolas winning would destroy any compelling narrative for the future of the game.
IMO it's never been a question of whether Bolas is defeated*, only how.
It would be removing the spark from almost the entirety of MTG's planeswalker character roster trapping them on a single plane. Bolas literally cannot "win" without plot shenanigans to give sparks back to all/most/at bare minimum the Gatewatch of the other planeswalker characters present, and at that point, why bother having a narrative of stealing their sparks at all?
I fail to see your point.
It's not hinted how many sparks he needs or if even there is a precise number to reach to achieve the deity status.
Also, while removing a spark is not, for us, synonimous with killing, we don't know if eternals need a near death-status to remove sparks (seeing the "death" of Dack Fayden in the trailer I think either the order imparted to them is to kill AND remove the spark or the process needs the death or a mortal wound to acquire the spark). Also where is the problem if Kaya, Dovin, Yanggu, Jaya, Kasmina (if it's her), Domri and so and so dies? And it's not mandatory to kill Jace & Co. Someone, more than a few, WILL DIE and it will be permanent, otherwise call it "Tea party with one murder under a cloudy sky on Ravnica"
Beyond that it destroys any plausibility for any future Bolas arcs they might want to have. If virtually all other known planeswalkers in the multiverse can't stop him now, in his current neowalker state, then there's simply no reasonable way they could ever thwart the plans of a Godwalker Bolas.
Bolas winning would destroy any compelling narrative for the future of the game.
I kind of understand and yet again fail to see your point.
Oldwalkers did die in the old days and not always by the hands of other oldwalkers. What was always needed to destroy Bolas was stategizing better than him and a bit of luck. Also, the Eldrazi were virtually impossible to be stopped by planeswalkers, and yet two of them perished.
Getting to tastes: I for example don't see a compelling story if Bolas is defeated AND it was not in his plan to be defeated. He remained defeated for so long it would be comical if his only victory was in a desert.
About Nissa's Vision: remember, first of all, that Mizzet is not the only important dragon on Ravnica (Ugin and Bolas are ones too) and that it does not say "a blue and red dragon" just "a dragon". Secondly, the fact Mizzet is reborn is (very likely) because of that strange experiment we saw in Firemind's Research. But he could really die, yes: then the grieve could be for him too.
Jaya fans should be salty though she has got dead written all over her and WOTC wont let her get a good card cause it upstage Chandra.
As a Jaya fan, I can say I love her PW card. The power is there. She's great. The problem is the Standard environment she exists in. Big Red hasn't been a great archetype in many, many years. I mean last time I really had fun with it in Standard (and it was able to hold its own against T1 decks) was when I ran a playset of Arc-Slogger. Jaya's ability to triple rummage is great. Her ult is game-winning. I often use her mana ability for Fight with Fire or Electrodominance (which is like playing two spells for the price of one, even on my turn). I do well with her, despite the environment being bad for her. I think she's fun and very Jaya-ish. I'm a fan.
About Nissa's Vision: remember, first of all, that Mizzet is not the only important dragon on Ravnica (Ugin and Bolas are ones too) and that it does not say "a blue and red dragon" just "a dragon". Secondly, the fact Mizzet is reborn is (very likely) because of that strange experiment we saw in Firemind's Research. But he could really die, yes: then the grieve could be for him too.
Ok thanks for the clarification
I just wasn’t sure if the vision just said dragon or whatever
Well probably learn the origin of the “reborn” niv latter
Teyo
Rat
Kaya
Jace
Vraska (yay Jace x vraska is happening)
Ral Zarek (by the way he was never a bolas agent he got tricked just like Kaya)
And..........
Liliana
She’s gonna get out of the default without dying
Redemption story gonna happen hope she doesn’t get a huge cold shoulder from the gatewatch
And Gideon is not on the list so yea it’s getting more and more likely by the minute he’s not gonna make it.
Nissa is missing too could it be who chandra is guilty on not saving according to the comic
Jaya fans should be salty though she has got dead written all over her and WOTC wont let her get a good card cause it upstage Chandra.
As a Jaya fan, I can say I love her PW card. The power is there. She's great. The problem is the Standard environment she exists in. Big Red hasn't been a great archetype in many, many years. I mean last time I really had fun with it in Standard (and it was able to hold its own against T1 decks) was when I ran a playset of Arc-Slogger. Jaya's ability to triple rummage is great. Her ult is game-winning. I often use her mana ability for Fight with Fire or Electrodominance (which is like playing two spells for the price of one, even on my turn). I do well with her, despite the environment being bad for her. I think she's fun and very Jaya-ish. I'm a fan.
I think Autumntwilight was referring to Jaya's upcoming card in War of the Spark, not her current card. And I would have to agree. For a very long time both mechanically and thematically Chandra has been set up as the successor to Jaya. By giving Jaya a card superior to Chandra's in War of the Spark would thoroughly undermine this endeavor.
About Nissa's Vision: remember, first of all, that Mizzet is not the only important dragon on Ravnica (Ugin and Bolas are ones too) and that it does not say "a blue and red dragon" just "a dragon". Secondly, the fact Mizzet is reborn is (very likely) because of that strange experiment we saw in Firemind's Research. But he could really die, yes: then the grieve could be for him too.
Ok thanks for the clarification
I just wasn’t sure if the vision just said dragon or whatever
Well probably learn the origin of the “reborn” niv latter
Teyo
Rat
Kaya
Jace
Vraska (yay Jace x vraska is happening)
Ral Zarek (by the way he was never a bolas agent he got tricked just like Kaya)
And..........
Liliana
She’s gonna get out of the default without dying
Redemption story gonna happen hope she doesn’t get a huge cold shoulder from the gatewatch
And Gideon is not on the list so yea it’s getting more and more likely by the minute he’s not gonna make it.
Nissa is missing too could it be who chandra is guilty on not saving according to the comic
I had wondered about the ambiguity of the trailer and Liliana's death. One; #walkingdead if you don't actually see a character die then almost by default they are not dead. Two; I think somewhere Bolas said Liliana would die of rapid decay, not fire. Three; aren't her tattoos supposed to glow when she uses the chain veil? This would indicate that the trailer is actually only representing her rebellion against Bolas, not her death.
I mean how does Ral not know who Bolas is? You would think Jace would have mentioned him...
As for Kaya, I don't buy it. Are we suppose to believe she is just dumb? Bolas is not the first tyrant she helped gain power, the last time we saw her she put Marchesa on the throne. And Marchesa wasn't exactly hard to find out was you know Evil.
It was said that Liliana would wither the years she is really old until her ultimate rapid death, yes, BUT I think it would have been visually unattractive and not as pathetic (as in pathos) for the trailer to make her pay for the transgression in that way.
Also, on Amazon the name of the sequel novel is "War of the Spark: Forsaken"... It could be an aftermath, but it could also be not. The entire story of the War might be actually divided in two half, one in the first book and the last one, with the actual ending story of the "block", in Forsaken. You seem so sure those characters are alive, but to me it's still a maybe, because if the war does not end in the first book then each of those characters might as well die.
I said what I said without hearing interviews with Weisman, so tell me if he explicitly said the first book is also the end of the war.
It was said that Liliana would wither the years she is really old until her ultimate rapid death, yes, BUT I think it would have been visually unattractive and not as pathetic (as in pathos) for the trailer to make her pay for the transgression in that way.
Also, on Amazon the name of the sequel novel is "War of the Spark: Forsaken"... It could be an aftermath, but it could also be not. The entire story of the War might be actually divided in two half, one in the first book and the last one, with the actual ending story of the "block", in Forsaken. You seem so sure those characters are alive, but to me it's still a maybe, because if the war does not end in the first book then each of those characters might as well die.
I said what I said without hearing interviews with Weisman, so tell me if he explicitly said the first book is also the end of the war.
The novel will have the set story the sequel will be what happens after and that if you want to know what happened during the set you only need to read the first novel.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
One other aspect of this story I'm curious about is the large number of ancient/powerful artifacts being brought to Ravnica. The list so far I believe is (and let me know if I've missed any); The Immortal Sun, Blackblade, Golgothian Cylex, The Planar Bridge, Bident of Thassa, The Chain Veil, and the Arkbow.
Remember we all said Garry wasn’t invited due to the similar goal of bolas killing walkers and making it harder for him to get a godspark back right?
Which means bolas chooses who to invite right?
So how did ugin get here? Wouldn’t bolas assume he’s dead thus wouldn’t get a invitation
They're playing fast and loose with this beacon thing. For instance, Maro was asked why Nahiri and Sorin are on Ravnica, and why Sorin's freedom happened off-screen. He said "we wanted Sorin and Nahiri here." Maro and others have repeatedly pointed out that all these walker cards are in the set because they wanted to have a ton of walkers in the set. The how and why of which walkers appear is then secondary to their desire to flood the set with walkers because they thought it would be cool. Why are Sorin and Nahiri on Ravnica? They wanted them to be there. Why isn't Garruk? Oh, uh, because Bolas wouldn't want him there. Why is Ugin? Because they want him to be there.
I wouldn't put much stock in the how and why the walkers are there.
Remember we all said Garry wasn’t invited due to the similar goal of bolas killing walkers and making it harder for him to get a godspark back right?
Which means bolas chooses who to invite right?
So how did ugin get here? Wouldn’t bolas assume he’s dead thus wouldn’t get a invitation
They're playing fast and loose with this beacon thing. For instance, Maro was asked why Nahiri and Sorin are on Ravnica, and why Sorin's freedom happened off-screen. He said "we wanted Sorin and Nahiri here." Maro and others have repeatedly pointed out that all these walker cards are in the set because they wanted to have a ton of walkers in the set. The how and why of which walkers appear is then secondary to their desire to flood the set with walkers because they thought it would be cool. Why are Sorin and Nahiri on Ravnica? They wanted them to be there. Why isn't Garruk? Oh, uh, because Bolas wouldn't want him there. Why is Ugin? Because they want him to be there.
I wouldn't put much stock in the how and why the walkers are there.
Bolas higly suspects Ugin is still alive, he visited Tarkir after Ugin's resurrection and found the hedron cocoon with no bones inside and to trap Ugin and even remove his spark would be a great success for Bolas.
By the way I still think it's more of a "there are certain conditions under which the beacon cannot make planeswalk"...
Huh? Bolas was last on Tarkir shortly after Ugin died over a thousand years ago. That was the story for M19. Unless I'm missing a major piece of the plot that you'd care to point me to.
Huh? Bolas was last on Tarkir shortly after Ugin died over a thousand years ago. That was the story for M19. Unless I'm missing a major piece of the plot that you'd care to point me to.
Absolutely, you're right, Ugin was dead-ish and inside the hedrons at that time.
Call me crazy.
Why did Bolas have to do this on Ravnica?? Got to be a specific reason.
Otherwise, from some of the cards we've seen already and their flavor texts, the Ravnicans seem to not only be holding their own against the Eternals but actively winning. And thats without anything happening from Planeswalkers yet.
I mean the Boros are just mopping floors with these guys. Now the Angels and Parhelion II (Flying Death Star) are out and about.
Seems like a pretty dumb fight for Bolas.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Bolas is a petty sadist anyways, he probably considers it worthy some of his army being destroyed if it means bringing some casual genocide as in his old days,
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Since you brought it up, the Meditation Realm actually makes the most sense - perhaps the final battle against Bolas will be fought there, or alternatively, there will be some sort of epilogue set there (e.g. if Bolas is defeated but survives or is sealed away).
As a big fan of him, I would be disappointed if he died and if that the case, I hope it's not a stupid character with a toy sword like Gideon or jace that achieve that but no less than Ugin. Even if he's not central to the story,he could at least be the turning tide of the battle.
But now, I want to be more positive and I think Bolas will not die. Again.
- Because him losing and dying is.. too much evident.
- We know the elder spell will be a card, and so will probably be casted by Bolas
- He has plot hole with the eldrazi and phyrexian, like a lot of other character
- I really doubt a lot of planeswalker character from the story will die. Those whose spark will serve to cast the random spell will be random walkers
- Because he's bolas and other character are way too stupid to understand his plan and the menace of him returning one day is good for the story (Like it is for Phyrexian or Eldrazi)
My bet would be :
- Bolas manage to cast the elder spell and ascend to godhood again
- Ugin show up and lock Bolas in a time loop. Bolas think he's won and is a god, but unbeknown to him, he's going to revive that victory and the day he cast the elder spell for eternity. Thus removing him as a threat.. for now
- Tezzeret will trigger Bolas "vengeance plan" planned in case of its defeat and open the planar bridge to phyrexia
-those dead remain dead and we'll have lots of deads
-Bolas' plan will succeed, he'll ascend to become a god BUT while the multiverse premending could easily sustain the presence of a planeswalker of that weight, now the multiverse rejects the new entity of Bolas and so he apparently disappears. Leaving everyone there think he is dead. Obviously he is not dead and he just needs time to accustom the multiverse to his refound powers, so in little time he will come back menacing as ever. THIS leaves Tezzeret free to roam and rummage New Phyrexia.
This can't happen.
It would be removing the spark from almost the entirety of MTG's planeswalker character roster trapping them on a single plane. Bolas literally cannot "win" without plot shenanigans to give sparks back to all/most/at bare minimum the Gatewatch of the other planeswalker characters present, and at that point, why bother having a narrative of stealing their sparks at all?
Beyond that it destroys any plausibility for any future Bolas arcs they might want to have. If virtually all other known planeswalkers in the multiverse can't stop him now, in his current neowalker state, then there's simply no reasonable way they could ever thwart the plans of a Godwalker Bolas.
Bolas winning would destroy any compelling narrative for the future of the game.
IMO it's never been a question of whether Bolas is defeated*, only how.
*Defeated, not necessarily killed.
I fail to see your point.
It's not hinted how many sparks he needs or if even there is a precise number to reach to achieve the deity status.
Also, while removing a spark is not, for us, synonimous with killing, we don't know if eternals need a near death-status to remove sparks (seeing the "death" of Dack Fayden in the trailer I think either the order imparted to them is to kill AND remove the spark or the process needs the death or a mortal wound to acquire the spark). Also where is the problem if Kaya, Dovin, Yanggu, Jaya, Kasmina (if it's her), Domri and so and so dies? And it's not mandatory to kill Jace & Co. Someone, more than a few, WILL DIE and it will be permanent, otherwise call it "Tea party with one murder under a cloudy sky on Ravnica"
I kind of understand and yet again fail to see your point.
Oldwalkers did die in the old days and not always by the hands of other oldwalkers. What was always needed to destroy Bolas was stategizing better than him and a bit of luck. Also, the Eldrazi were virtually impossible to be stopped by planeswalkers, and yet two of them perished.
Getting to tastes: I for example don't see a compelling story if Bolas is defeated AND it was not in his plan to be defeated. He remained defeated for so long it would be comical if his only victory was in a desert.
Look at the art of Rising Populace
It’s a funeral for fallen and look at one of the photos
Niv-Mizzet is one of them
If I’m not mistaken one of Nissa’s vision involves a blue and red dragon falls
Also that’s probably why the card is call “niv-Mizzet reborn” rise from the dead or show that he faked his death
As a Jaya fan, I can say I love her PW card. The power is there. She's great. The problem is the Standard environment she exists in. Big Red hasn't been a great archetype in many, many years. I mean last time I really had fun with it in Standard (and it was able to hold its own against T1 decks) was when I ran a playset of Arc-Slogger. Jaya's ability to triple rummage is great. Her ult is game-winning. I often use her mana ability for Fight with Fire or Electrodominance (which is like playing two spells for the price of one, even on my turn). I do well with her, despite the environment being bad for her. I think she's fun and very Jaya-ish. I'm a fan.
Ok thanks for the clarification
I just wasn’t sure if the vision just said dragon or whatever
Well probably learn the origin of the “reborn” niv latter
Hey check this out
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Ravnica:_War_of_the_Spark
More survivors of the war confirmed
Teyo
Rat
Kaya
Jace
Vraska (yay Jace x vraska is happening)
Ral Zarek (by the way he was never a bolas agent he got tricked just like Kaya)
And..........
Liliana
She’s gonna get out of the default without dying
Redemption story gonna happen hope she doesn’t get a huge cold shoulder from the gatewatch
And Gideon is not on the list so yea it’s getting more and more likely by the minute he’s not gonna make it.
Nissa is missing too could it be who chandra is guilty on not saving according to the comic
I think Autumntwilight was referring to Jaya's upcoming card in War of the Spark, not her current card. And I would have to agree. For a very long time both mechanically and thematically Chandra has been set up as the successor to Jaya. By giving Jaya a card superior to Chandra's in War of the Spark would thoroughly undermine this endeavor.
I had wondered about the ambiguity of the trailer and Liliana's death. One; #walkingdead if you don't actually see a character die then almost by default they are not dead. Two; I think somewhere Bolas said Liliana would die of rapid decay, not fire. Three; aren't her tattoos supposed to glow when she uses the chain veil? This would indicate that the trailer is actually only representing her rebellion against Bolas, not her death.
As for Kaya, I don't buy it. Are we suppose to believe she is just dumb? Bolas is not the first tyrant she helped gain power, the last time we saw her she put Marchesa on the throne. And Marchesa wasn't exactly hard to find out was you know Evil.
I am surprised on Vraska. Lili has the Raven Man.
Also, on Amazon the name of the sequel novel is "War of the Spark: Forsaken"... It could be an aftermath, but it could also be not. The entire story of the War might be actually divided in two half, one in the first book and the last one, with the actual ending story of the "block", in Forsaken. You seem so sure those characters are alive, but to me it's still a maybe, because if the war does not end in the first book then each of those characters might as well die.
I said what I said without hearing interviews with Weisman, so tell me if he explicitly said the first book is also the end of the war.
Remember we all said Garry wasn’t invited due to the similar goal of bolas killing walkers and making it harder for him to get a godspark back right?
Which means bolas chooses who to invite right?
So how did ugin get here? Wouldn’t bolas assume he’s dead thus wouldn’t get a invitation
The novel will have the set story the sequel will be what happens after and that if you want to know what happened during the set you only need to read the first novel.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
They're playing fast and loose with this beacon thing. For instance, Maro was asked why Nahiri and Sorin are on Ravnica, and why Sorin's freedom happened off-screen. He said "we wanted Sorin and Nahiri here." Maro and others have repeatedly pointed out that all these walker cards are in the set because they wanted to have a ton of walkers in the set. The how and why of which walkers appear is then secondary to their desire to flood the set with walkers because they thought it would be cool. Why are Sorin and Nahiri on Ravnica? They wanted them to be there. Why isn't Garruk? Oh, uh, because Bolas wouldn't want him there. Why is Ugin? Because they want him to be there.
I wouldn't put much stock in the how and why the walkers are there.
Bolas higly suspects Ugin is still alive, he visited Tarkir after Ugin's resurrection and found the hedron cocoon with no bones inside and to trap Ugin and even remove his spark would be a great success for Bolas.
By the way I still think it's more of a "there are certain conditions under which the beacon cannot make planeswalk"...
Look who is referenced here
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
About damn time. Perhaps the ghost quarter could come back too. I'd love a spirit Szadek and Agrus Kos to join this carnage.
Absolutely, you're right, Ugin was dead-ish and inside the hedrons at that time.
Why did Bolas have to do this on Ravnica?? Got to be a specific reason.
Otherwise, from some of the cards we've seen already and their flavor texts, the Ravnicans seem to not only be holding their own against the Eternals but actively winning. And thats without anything happening from Planeswalkers yet.
I mean the Boros are just mopping floors with these guys. Now the Angels and Parhelion II (Flying Death Star) are out and about.
Seems like a pretty dumb fight for Bolas.