I also think it is important to remember that for awhile creative had a year to world build each world and 6 months to make Kaladesh, Amonkhet and Ixalan. It is really unfair to compare something like Song of Ice and Fire in which Martin spent years developing his world for his story, where creative has 6 months to a year to make a world and story, as well as the art and being on design/development teams. And while Dominaria is big its had a huge number of sets to expand itself, as each world is retuned too more of it will be fleshed out more.
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Well yes Richard designed it but its also the plane with the most characters and most sets.
Granted I like Dominaria I don't like the recent Dominaria Lore much at all. Wasn't a fan of the Bolas Arc and I don't like Dom basically being back to normal after Apocalypses with the only difference being no Zhalfir. And I certainly didn't like Lili's demon coming out nowhere and no one really doing much about it for decades. I don't like most of the character choices either but that is not really Plane Specific.
I also think it is important to remember that for awhile creative had a year to world build each world and 6 months to make Kaladesh, Amonkhet and Ixalan. It is really unfair to compare something like Song of Ice and Fire in which Martin spent years developing his world for his story, where creative has 6 months to a year to make a world and story, as well as the art and being on design/development teams. And while Dominaria is big its had a huge number of sets to expand itself, as each world is retuned too more of it will be fleshed out more.
I don't think it's unfair at all with the way I'm doing it, because I brought up A Song of Ice and Fire not to compare quality, but as a counter example to the argument that a world that has a lot of cool but unrelated concepts is poor worldbuilding and incoherent. Ixalan was built in similar fashion, as was Dominaria, and those are two of the stronger examples of worldbuilding magic has put out.
It always rubs me the wrong way when Dominaria is presented as the "objectively best plane" just because it has continents and stuff. Dominaria feels big not only because there's cultural diversity, but also because the cultures on the plane have their roots in the very conception of Magic as a game and all implications coming from that (since Dominaria is Magic's first plane).
There are strong parallels here to other bottom-up planes like Tarkir, Ravnica and Alara. Because the mechanics of Magic: the Gathering are (obviously) unique to it as a game, there's a strong sense of independence to these worlds built on top of them: The Jeskai may superficially resemble Tibetan monks, but they're ultimately not inspired by Tibetan monks, but the combined philosophies of the colors that form their "wedge". Both Mirrodin and Kaladesh are built on the artifact subtype first and foremost and have serious creative design space (see Mirrodin's transformation into New Phyrexia). Kaladesh does feel small, but that's due to the story almost exclusively focusing on the Inventors' Fair and the events that occurred there (and the events that resulted from those). The pitch for Ixalan may have been "vampire conquistadors", but in the end the set turned out to be a lot more rooted in mechanics, namely tribal. Ixalan, in a way, could be described as a "fixed Lorwyn" in that it did the tribal theme with greater flavor resonance. I think the reason it ended up feeling kind of bland to some was - as has already been said in this thread - that the storytelling (both on the cards and in the actual story) was too streamlined and one-note, attributes which amusingly also fit its limited environment. Ixalan was wide but ended up lacking depth, with Kaladesh being the opposite case.
I would, however, argue that a world doesn't necessarily have to "feel big" in order to be a good or "solidly worldbuilt" world. Basically, depth is more important than pure scale. Case in point: Ravnica; although it's always stated that the city covers the whole plane and the urban setting and the ten guilds (+ the guildless) make the world seem complex and interesting, the "relevant part" of the plane is, in the end, pretty small. Conversely, Zendikar is big, but when looking at the cards you get the feeling that wherever you go, it's essentially the same kind of generic adventure environment everywhere, although the "skins" for the environments differ.
Kamigawa and Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (my personal favourites) both are on the small side as well, but I find them very interesting and engaging. They are seen as failures because they didn't have enough resonance, i.e. things people from a very broad audience could easily relate to. But that's also the reason for why they feel original. It's often mentioned that the design team of Kamigawa was very true to the source material/culture it was depicting. But if you look closely, it's actually very different and very much its own thing. If you searched for descriptions of Kami like they're presented on cards from Kamigawa, you'd search for a long time. At the same time, there's no prominent sun goddess and also no other easily identifiable figures from the "traditional mythological canon", and the ghosts/monsters/yokai from the realm of folk belief are also largely absent or have been turned into independent groups/civilizations, sometimes pushed into colors they most likely wouldn't have been in if the goal had been to present their image in the real world as accurately as possible (kitsune, moonfolk, orochi, akki). Similarly, Lorwyn/Shadowmoor heavily drew on folklore from the British Isles, but from a flavor standpoint, the focus wasn't really on portraying/referencing the source material correctly, but rather the larger theme of "world of light VS world of dark". The elements based on real culture were merely combined with this theme, resulting in a world that made sense without suffering from "overfitting" which can be observed on planes like Theros or even Innistrad. I think the key to creating a sense of originality in fantasy worlds/works is to deliberately leave some elements unconnected and disparate. If you try to reference too much/connect everything to another thing, the greater whole starts to feel bland (which is also a problem with prequel series/movies).
Dominaria is not objectively the best plane because there is no objectively best plane, but it IS arguably the best, meaning there's a strong case to be made for it, as a strong case can be made for some other planes.
It's also correct that it's not because it has continents, but because it has various well developed cultures. I'd argue that this has little to do with it being first, but with how it was constructed, over years, with blocks worth of work being put into continents and areas. This is why it has so much history, and why many of it's continents are as developed as entire planes.
That's not something that can easily be done in just one block or one set. There are, however, ways to accomplish this. The first, and the one with the immediate pay off, is to have multiple well developed factions that represents divergent cultures and even separate territory, best done on Ravnica but also well done on Tarkir, Kamigawa, and even Alara (though somewhat muddled during the conflux). This makes the plane feel bigger (and the key word here is FEEL: a plane can be physically small like Kamigawa is and still FEEL big, and it can be physically huge like Zendikar and FEEL small, based on how same it feels or how diverse it feels). The second way is trickier, and is used on Ixalan and Innistrad: make it clear that the block or set only focuses on a small area of the plane and explicitly say that there is more out there that might be different. Admittedly, how well this works depends on how the consumer responds to it as much as it does the execution. Innistrad makes it clear that there are other continents, and while it's a horror plane those continents might have different sorts of monsters and might not be central and eastern European inspired. Ixalan I think does this best, because it combines the two by having well defined culturally divergent factions as well as unvisited, culturally divergent parts of the plane, and does one better by actually telling us a good amount about one of them. This is a long term pay off though, as we get to explore these new places as we revisit the world, and it grows over time (like Dominaria did). The great part about this though is that you can build a diverse world up around a general theme: Innistrad can expand into diverse cultures while still maintaining a horror theme, and having diverse cultures is actually necessary for an age of exploration theme. It would be rather difficult to take a narrower world like Theros and expand it very far without diluting what it's supposed to be. I could easily see a Theros set where the Poli discover a Persian inspired culture and have a war, but now it's not just a Greek mythology block but starts bringing in near eastern things as well. That could be great, but it would also change the nature of the plane.
Lastly, I acknowledge that a lot of these worlds of hats are fun. Theros is one of my favorite planes, but it's because I like Greek mythology and it's giving me what I want. The thing that makes it weak worldbuilding is that it's so obviously fan service: it hits all the beats you could demand from it, checks off all the boxes, and does it all great. The thing is, it gives me everything I knew wanted, but it doesn't give me anything else: no surprises, no innovations, no new discoveries or ideas. Kamigawa, on the other hand, gave me things I didn't even know I wanted to go along with the Ninja and samurai a dragons. And it crafted interesting cultures and stories. Eating memberberries is fun, but sometimes I want new and interesting things to member later.
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I also think it is important to remember that for awhile creative had a year to world build each world and 6 months to make Kaladesh, Amonkhet and Ixalan. It is really unfair to compare something like Song of Ice and Fire in which Martin spent years developing his world for his story, where creative has 6 months to a year to make a world and story, as well as the art and being on design/development teams. And while Dominaria is big its had a huge number of sets to expand itself, as each world is retuned too more of it will be fleshed out more.
I don't think it's unfair at all with the way I'm doing it, because I brought up A Song of Ice and Fire not to compare quality, but as a counter example to the argument that a world that has a lot of cool but unrelated concepts is poor worldbuilding and incoherent. Ixalan was built in similar fashion, as was Dominaria, and those are two of the stronger examples of worldbuilding magic has put out.
Ah I am sorry I mistook your intention with that.
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Tldr of Kamigawa: ''It has a high rank because it wasn't popular (citation needed) and didn't sell too well. We might revisit it if we discard everything good about it and go with animes and ninjas because they are what's popular and marketable these days.''
I hate how Maro is such a biased salesman behind his rational facade. For example the new worlds all rank rather low with very questionable reasoning on some of them. Can't wait for 2025, when he will be able to talk about why Amonkhet or Ixalan failed and how the new return to Ixalan will totally fix all that and be super special awesome!
Tldr of Kamigawa: ''It has a high rank because it wasn't popular (citation needed) and didn't sell too well. We might revisit it if we discard everything good about it and go with animes and ninjas because they are what's popular and marketable these days.''
I hate how Maro is such a biased salesman behind his rational facade. For example the new worlds all rank rather low with very questionable reasoning on some of them. Can't wait for 2025, when he will be able to talk about why Amonkhet or Ixalan failed and how the new return to Ixalan will totally fix all that and be super special awesome!
First of, and I will fight for that, Amonkhet was awesome. Being a small plane with a single self-contained culture is not always the bad thing some of you are trying to portray it as. In this case it was even justified, since the plane is described as being nearly dead and having suffered from a catastrophe way before Bolas got his hands on it. There just isn't much left of it. (I'm actually mad about Maro seemingly thinking that it blew up at the end. I mean, there were survivors and Hazoreth still lives as well...) I would also argue that worlds with actual gods which interact more or less directly with the populace would pretty much force the cultures on these planes to be relatively homogenous, so I don't see the problem with Theros and Amonkhet not having the varied cultures of Tarkir or Dominaria. Ixalans problems were mostly about the moral superficiality, NOT the actual worldbuilding, which was in my opinion pretty well done. Not my favorite world, but still.
Now Kamigawa. I personally liked it. But from what I can gather, many of the Kamigawa fans here seriously try to downplay how much even the flavor and worldbuilding was rejected when it came out. You might lament the fact that taking out the spirits etc. and introducing more popular japanese tropes into it is making it more superficial, but remember, tropes are not bad. In fact quite a few things in Kamigawa were so far away from the actual japanese mythology that the connection felt kind of forced (I don't really see much of a connection between the kitsune in the legends and those on the plane for example, except for that they resemble foxes). And let's face it, many parts of Kamigawa simply failed. I'm not even agreeing with it having "varied cultures", since everything is very clear cut between color lines in that regard. That's the thing I personally liked the least about it: It felt small and very much divided into cultural units. You had humans from each color, one nonhuman species for each color, one location for each color. Not the most creative way of worldbuilding. So I get Maro. Still, I think a compromise could be made to "modernize" Kamigawa without losing too much of its identity and that this would be worth exploring at least in a supplemental set.
I think the point is we are so far removed both in Universe time what we are 500 years later, 800 years later and in real world time 13 years that they can easily soft reboot Kamigawa into whatever they want as long as they keep the Japanese Trappings. Reduce the focus on Kamis and Spirits put more emphasis on Ninjas and Samurais and they are ready to go.
Tldr of Kamigawa: ''It has a high rank because it wasn't popular (citation needed) and didn't sell too well. We might revisit it if we discard everything good about it and go with animes and ninjas because they are what's popular and marketable these days.''
I hate how Maro is such a biased salesman behind his rational facade. For example the new worlds all rank rather low with very questionable reasoning on some of them. Can't wait for 2025, when he will be able to talk about why Amonkhet or Ixalan failed and how the new return to Ixalan will totally fix all that and be super special awesome!
First of, and I will fight for that, Amonkhet was awesome. Being a small plane with a single self-contained culture is not always the bad thing some of you are trying to portray it as. In this case it was even justified, since the plane is described as being nearly dead and having suffered from a catastrophe way before Bolas got his hands on it. There just isn't much left of it. (I'm actually mad about Maro seemingly thinking that it blew up at the end. I mean, there were survivors and Hazoreth still lives as well...) I would also argue that worlds with actual gods which interact more or less directly with the populace would pretty much force the cultures on these planes to be relatively homogenous, so I don't see the problem with Theros and Amonkhet not having the varied cultures of Tarkir or Dominaria. Ixalans problems were mostly about the moral superficiality, NOT the actual worldbuilding, which was in my opinion pretty well done. Not my favorite world, but still.
Now Kamigawa. I personally liked it. But from what I can gather, many of the Kamigawa fans here seriously try to downplay how much even the flavor and worldbuilding was rejected when it came out. You might lament the fact that taking out the spirits etc. and introducing more popular japanese tropes into it is making it more superficial, but remember, tropes are not bad. In fact quite a few things in Kamigawa were so far away from the actual japanese mythology that the connection felt kind of forced (I don't really see much of a connection between the kitsune in the legends and those on the plane for example, except for that they resemble foxes). And let's face it, many parts of Kamigawa simply failed. I'm not even agreeing with it having "varied cultures", since everything is very clear cut between color lines in that regard. That's the thing I personally liked the least about it: It felt small and very much divided into cultural units. You had humans from each color, one nonhuman species for each color, one location for each color. Not the most creative way of worldbuilding. So I get Maro. Still, I think a compromise could be made to "modernize" Kamigawa without losing too much of its identity and that this would be worth exploring at least in a supplemental set.
First off, I haven't seen anyone argue that the spirits matter aspect of Kamigawa should be preseced. Quite the contrary, people who defend Kamigawa have been saying that not only would having fewer Kami be a good idea, it would actually be required if you follow the lore surrounding the plane, and as hundreds of years have passed in lore using the Kami as a reason not to go back is dishonest.
Kamigawa is actually a very small plane, or we've only seen a small part of it. Yet it feels bigger that a plane like Zendikar because the places we vists and the cultures we interact with are better defined, more varied, and better developed.
I agree that tropes aren't necessarily bad, but building a world based solely on tropes isn't good worldbuilding. That said, we as a fanbase don't always want good worldbuilding. We also want fanservice theme sets that let us get things we like added to magic. I'm happy that Theros exists because it let's us get Greek mythology themed stuff into magic. It's not good worldbuilding, but it is good fan service. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one to get the other. Personally, I'd be happiest with wizards focusing on some worlds as their good worldbuilding worlds, places that let Magic have something of its own identity, and other worlds as fan service worlds, places that exist just to be cool. The former can grow and develop magics core identity while the latter can be magics take on a setting. That's actually what they have been doing for awhile with mixed results. The latter can sometimes develop into the former, like Ravnica did, based on how well they create their own identity rather than just leaning on delivering tropes.
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Kamigawa is actually a very small plane, or we've only seen a small part of it. Yet it feels bigger that a plane like Zendikar because the places we vists and the cultures we interact with are better defined, more varied, and better developed.
I seem to recall that Kamigawa is actually a fairly big plane, though we've only seen a little bit of it. In visions granted by Mochi, Toshi and Michiko see great oceans (and I believe continents). Also, there are other lands speculated to lie even farther east of Jukai Forest (which is the eastern boundary of the Kamigawa we currently know) but Jukai is so vast that no one has been beyond it.
Here's the specific quote from the third Kamigawa book, as Konda and his mothriders fly over the forest in their hunt for Toshi:
"The landscape below fascinated Konda. Neither he nor his armies had ever pressed this far east before. After he reclaimed the Taken One and restored the tower at Eiganjo, he would consider sending a proper expedition to finally map eastern Jukai and beyond. If there were nations at the far side of the woods, they must also come under Konda's protection. Someday, he expected, even the orochi will be brought under his banner."
Ulgrotha is an unfortunate case, despite being the home of the Baron Sengir. That portal is all I know that could link it to the modern story, but I think the potential of things coming through the portal FROM Ulgrotha is much more interesting than going back TO Ulgrotha. Maro says that portal connects to an "unnamed plane" when it's more accurate to say that it connects to an "unknown plane," which could be a new plane or a plane we're already familiar with, it was left open-ended.
Since the mending all planar portals and ways to travel different planes (outside of being a planeswalker) stopped working, which is why the Planar Bridge is such a big deal.
Yes but it is entirely possible Sengir and his army went through the Ulgrotha Portal before the Mending.
Kamigawa is actually a very small plane, or we've only seen a small part of it. Yet it feels bigger that a plane like Zendikar because the places we vists and the cultures we interact with are better defined, more varied, and better developed.
I seem to recall that Kamigawa is actually a fairly big plane, though we've only seen a little bit of it. In visions granted by Mochi, Toshi and Michiko see great oceans (and I believe continents). Also, there are other lands speculated to lie even farther east of Jukai Forest (which is the eastern boundary of the Kamigawa we currently know) but Jukai is so vast that no one has been beyond it.
Here's the specific quote from the third Kamigawa book, as Konda and his mothriders fly over the forest in their hunt for Toshi:
"The landscape below fascinated Konda. Neither he nor his armies had ever pressed this far east before. After he reclaimed the Taken One and restored the tower at Eiganjo, he would consider sending a proper expedition to finally map eastern Jukai and beyond. If there were nations at the far side of the woods, they must also come under Konda's protection. Someday, he expected, even the orochi will be brought under his banner."
Alas, it was not to be.
Similar situation with Theros as the Nistos forest and Westward mountains. Nylea admitted to disappearing to uncharted lands to fight and hunt great creatures. It makes me hope we'll see Theros as Mediterranean world focused on Greece, rather than three city-states. The greatest aspect of Greece in general are the Cyclades isles, many of which are a respectable size. Arixmethes easily represents Santorini, one of many, perhaps the most prominent (as Atlantis) alongside Myknonos, Skiathos, etc. We didn't see much of the Dakra at all, mentioning them only in passing, and passing them off as a smaller chain than they ought to be. This is disappointing. I don't like referring so much to mainland Greece and it having only three settlements. Theros should have many cultures and locations, an entire ocean basin to explore, etc. They represent various races there, black people, Greek looking people and even Phoenician/Semitic appearing individuals, but we don't see North Africa (Lotus Eaters) where black appearing people would be from. We don't see Phoenicia where more Arabic looking people on Theros would be from, and we don't even see the key defining aspect of Theros, which is its chain of volcanic isles that requires the classic shipbuilding Greeks were renowned for (as taught to them by the Phoenicians) in order to traverse and trade with. Where is Lisbon and Sappho the poet? Where even is Tragic Poet the card in Theros? We need references to more locations, even if it's just in flavor text, at the very least. Enough of the: -of Meletis, -of Akros, and -of Setessa crap. It's Greek MYTHOLOGY world because there are mythological uncharted places.
Theros should be so saturated and steeped with Legendary locations and lands that it feels on par with Kamigawa. You can't really appreciate a pantheon of 14 gods ruling over three city-states. We get references to Troy, but where is the Theros Troy? We see it in Launch the Fleet, but when it comes down to the trope expression, we got Akroan Horse instead. So Akros is both Sparta and Troy? Absurd.
Many of these planes need expanding. They have the potential, but lack the execution.
Theros has a lot of its own unique mythology as well to tap into now. Seeing Sagas representing Kynaois and Tiro founding Meletis, Thassa's tears forming the Dakra isles when the triton queen Korinna is killed, the murder of Elspeth, Kytheon becoming Sun's Champion, Pavos and his lover dying under the Emonberry Tree, etc. these are a beautiful way to show THEROS myths on cards, depicting more elegant and unique aspects of colors that transcend the typical war scenes that make this game feel linear and nauseating to anyone who isn't a straight white nerd living in basement, which isn't the demographic of Magic at all in my experience.
I'll admit I have a soft spot for Kamigawa as I was still really new to Magic at that time, just having started in the Darksteel-Fifth Dawn time frame. So the new player in me didn't know how poorly designed it was. a lot of the people I know hated it because it didn't really fit well with other sets around it and the spirits vs mortals was too focused on. I'd like to see some kind of nostalgia return but in a way other than in standard, which probably won't happen.
I wasn't a fan of Ixalan too much but I think they could do a lot more in terms of fleshing it out an developing it more
I liked the Ixalan story because Jace wasn't mopy and I liked the vampires after buying the commander vampire deck. However, in rivals Jace being a hypocrit and banishing Azor after he built a system for 10,000 years of peace and prosperity for Ravnica annoyed me, as did them declaring that the story was a farce. If we never returned to Ixalan ever again I'd be okay with that, but I'd also be okay with a return.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
The issue is two-fold Jace is never around to do his job and Azor made the best deal he could or is the argument that as an Oldwalker Azor should have just killed all the other guilds instead of a compromised?
However, in rivals Jace being a hypocrit and banishing Azor after he built a system for 10,000 years of peace and prosperity for Ravnica annoyed me, as did them declaring that the story was a farce.
I guarantee you, and I'm willing to bet my head on this: the Ixalan story was never at first intended to be a farce, nor was it written as one. That was a BS claim by the writers after the story took a nosedive and fans expressed dismay with various elements, an attempt to save face. It was the story team refusing to admit they botched it and saying instead, "Oh, we meant to do that."
Jace and Vraska came out of Ixalan looking good, but nothing else did.
However, in rivals Jace being a hypocrit and banishing Azor after he built a system for 10,000 years of peace and prosperity for Ravnica annoyed me, as did them declaring that the story was a farce.
I guarantee you, and I'm willing to bet my head on this: the Ixalan story was never at first intended to be a farce, nor was it written as one. That was a BS claim by the writers after the story took a nosedive and fans expressed dismay with various elements, an attempt to save face. It was the story team refusing to admit they botched it and saying instead, "Oh, we meant to do that."
Jace and Vraska came out of Ixalan looking good, but nothing else did.
I think Angarth also came out of Ixalan looking good, but considering they're all planeswalkers, there's no need to return to Ixalan.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It's clear that Maro is biased towards more recent settings, and that makes some sense: these settings have more of the elements they're looking for nowadays because they were designed with those elements in mind.
It is a shame to see Kamigawa still ranking so poorly. Basically, there's plenty to do with the setting, but it's just impossible to convince the bigwigs to return to something that was a commercial failure the first time. Kamigawa looks better in retrospect than it did at the time in many ways, but enough years have passed, that we can see what was working and what wasn't.
I think the biggest world-building mistake they've made in recent years was the de-wedging of Tarkir. I would love a return to a wedge-centered Tarkir. It looks like Wizards is thinking the same thing.
I personally like the storybook art-style of Lorwyn, but the key elements of Lorwyn and Shadowmoor (the tribal focus, and the hybrid focus) neither one led to a great setting. Personally, I would like to see hybrid mana used more, but they shouldn't have made a whole block about it. Lorwyn failed to find any focus other than on the tribes, and not everybody wants to pick a tribe and build. Innistrad's tribal subtheme is much much stronger than the tribal superthemes of Lorwyn or Ixalan. The theme is present and felt, but isn't the defining feature.
Like many, I really liked Zendikar, and like many, I found Battle for Zendikar to be poorly executed. Nevertheless, I'm not that excited for a return to eldrazi-less Zendikar. I don't feel like the setting goes all that deep. There are quests and adventures, but that is more tone than anything, and Ixalan or Theros could just as easily be used as adventure-worlds. The main thing Zendikar has going for it is the land theme. Zendikar and Worldwake were mostly great because they had a lot of great cards: fetchlands, manlands, Squadron Hawk, Goblin Guide, Stoneforge Mystic, landfall beaters, Jace the overpowered, and more. That's the real reason Zendikar 1 was so popular, just like shocklands are a huge part of every Ravnica set's success.
Return to Theros looks promising. We needed a setting with a prominent enchantment theme, and there's plenty more to do with that as well as with the Greek setting.
It's obvious the decision to "punish" Azor on Vraska's behalf was a female SJW intern's idea.
I mean you sure it wasnt classic putting Jace over the top? You want SJW stuff that be in my book more shown in Dom with Jhoira being the greatest ever and Teferi pretty much a failure. Teferi needs Jhoira to get his spark, Jhoira and his daughter to solve a puzzle...Jhoira doesn't need Teferi to fix the Weatherlight. Then Jhoira and the new crew are shown just as strong as Teferi, Karn and Jaya against a damn specter.
It's obvious the decision to "punish" Azor on Vraska's behalf was a female SJW intern's idea.
Yes, yes, let your hate flow through you
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's obvious the decision to "punish" Azor on Vraska's behalf was a female SJW intern's idea.
I mean you sure it wasnt classic putting Jace over the top? You want SJW stuff that be in my book more shown in Dom with Jhoira being the greatest ever and Teferi pretty much a failure. Teferi needs Jhoira to get his spark, Jhoira and his daughter to solve a puzzle...Jhoira doesn't need Teferi to fix the Weatherlight. Then Jhoira and the new crew are shown just as strong as Teferi, Karn and Jaya against a damn specter.
Though I think SJW gets shouted about too much
To be fair, Jhoira IS an artificer and was the original captain of the original Weatherlight. Her showing up Teferi at the end of the puzzle is one thing, but her being able to fix something that she is intimately familiar with, as a master artificer, without seeking help from a guy that was never an artificer, isn't a stretch.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Saying that Dominaria is the best plane is a little unfair.
They worked 8 years on Dominaria, while for example they worked only 6 months on Amonkhet. Of course results are differents.
Imho the best "one-shot" plane was Ravnica, but with the costant retcons that follow every return, the plane is becoming duller every visit.
Well, the discussion did already cover that. Building a world up over time is of course going to make it deeper. Something built over 8 years is generally going to have better world building than something slapped together in 6 months. Its completely legitimate to point that out, and it doesn't mean we have to grade on a curve.
As you point out, it does make sense not to expect the same quality from something slapped together in 6 months vs something built up over time, which is why I never expect any new plane to be as deep, diverse, and fleshed out as Dominaria, but you can still judge them in other ways. One of the ways is too look at how well the plane is set up to grow beyond being just a 'hat' world. A plane like Ixalan is a place where we haven't seen most of the plane and which has a lot of room to grow into an interesting, developed, strongly built world over several visits. Innistrad promised that as well with hints of other continents (and perhaps other cultured with their own horror), but the return was just the same we had seen, now with Eldrazi. Should a third visit still focus on the same small slice of the plane, they'd be squandering some of the foundation they layed.
We've only seen the foundation so far, but I would rate the foundation as strong, even if the story was bad the setting is good. The other way is simply to compare such planes to eachother. Ravnica, block 1, was a better example of worldbuilding than Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. While retcons have degraded it somewhat, I agree, it still stacks near the top.
Amonkhet is interesting because it actually did a great job worldbuilding for the needs of the story. The city and trials were well developed, and the world had an interesting hook, and all this was layered on top of the Egyptian theme. It's main limitation is that it lacks room to grow, but that happens when you world build for an essentially dead world, even when you do a good job of it. I'm fairly ambivalent to whether a return would lead to the world getting fleshed out more or just degraded into a generic Egyptian theme.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I mean its not like Teferi has no skill in artifice...he has got artifacts with his name on it and was making them for jokes as a kid. Is he as good as Jhoira no but lets not act like he has no skill at all with artifice. I would say Jhoira knows far less about Sparks/Walkers then Teferi knows about Artifice. And yet she easily resparked Teferi somehow.
Dominaria though has the benefit of more sets to flavor the plane and its also the only plane that isn't really tied to a unified theme. Its just a fully realized Fantasy World. Its not Greco-Roman Inspired or Egpytian Inspired or anything.
I mean its not like Teferi has no skill in artifice...he has got artifacts with his name on it and was making them for jokes as a kid. Is he as good as Jhoira no but lets not act like he has no skill at all with artifice. I would say Jhoira knows far less about Sparks/Walkers then Teferi knows about Artifice. And yet she easily resparked Teferi somehow.
Dominaria though has the benefit of more sets to flavor the plane and its also the only plane that isn't really tied to a unified theme. Its just a fully realized Fantasy World. Its not Greco-Roman Inspired or Egpytian Inspired or anything.
Yeah, her being able to just respark Teferi was poorly done, though as you rightly complained about in the Dominaria thread its largely because it happens offscreen. We still don't know how the hell the Mana Rig can respark someone. As a master artificer, I'd accept Jhoira being able to figure out how to do it if its a process entirely reliant on the mana rig (meaning, the operator's magical abilities are irrelevant and everything relies on the Mana Rig). Still, it was very out of left field. Its never explained how she found or acquired his spark. Certainly the mana rig is capable of putting sparks in power stones, but how she got hold of Teferi's specifically, how she knew it was his, and how it survived being used to seal Shiv. You're right that if she was able to figure it out, Teferi should have been able to do it. The only exception would be if this was an intended function of the Mana Rig, and she happened upon this functionality while restoring it. Of course, this is all conjecture. Like so many Magic stories, its simple enough to come up with satisfactory explanations, which makes it worse that Wizards didn't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Granted I like Dominaria I don't like the recent Dominaria Lore much at all. Wasn't a fan of the Bolas Arc and I don't like Dom basically being back to normal after Apocalypses with the only difference being no Zhalfir. And I certainly didn't like Lili's demon coming out nowhere and no one really doing much about it for decades. I don't like most of the character choices either but that is not really Plane Specific.
I don't think it's unfair at all with the way I'm doing it, because I brought up A Song of Ice and Fire not to compare quality, but as a counter example to the argument that a world that has a lot of cool but unrelated concepts is poor worldbuilding and incoherent. Ixalan was built in similar fashion, as was Dominaria, and those are two of the stronger examples of worldbuilding magic has put out.
Dominaria is not objectively the best plane because there is no objectively best plane, but it IS arguably the best, meaning there's a strong case to be made for it, as a strong case can be made for some other planes.
It's also correct that it's not because it has continents, but because it has various well developed cultures. I'd argue that this has little to do with it being first, but with how it was constructed, over years, with blocks worth of work being put into continents and areas. This is why it has so much history, and why many of it's continents are as developed as entire planes.
That's not something that can easily be done in just one block or one set. There are, however, ways to accomplish this. The first, and the one with the immediate pay off, is to have multiple well developed factions that represents divergent cultures and even separate territory, best done on Ravnica but also well done on Tarkir, Kamigawa, and even Alara (though somewhat muddled during the conflux). This makes the plane feel bigger (and the key word here is FEEL: a plane can be physically small like Kamigawa is and still FEEL big, and it can be physically huge like Zendikar and FEEL small, based on how same it feels or how diverse it feels). The second way is trickier, and is used on Ixalan and Innistrad: make it clear that the block or set only focuses on a small area of the plane and explicitly say that there is more out there that might be different. Admittedly, how well this works depends on how the consumer responds to it as much as it does the execution. Innistrad makes it clear that there are other continents, and while it's a horror plane those continents might have different sorts of monsters and might not be central and eastern European inspired. Ixalan I think does this best, because it combines the two by having well defined culturally divergent factions as well as unvisited, culturally divergent parts of the plane, and does one better by actually telling us a good amount about one of them. This is a long term pay off though, as we get to explore these new places as we revisit the world, and it grows over time (like Dominaria did). The great part about this though is that you can build a diverse world up around a general theme: Innistrad can expand into diverse cultures while still maintaining a horror theme, and having diverse cultures is actually necessary for an age of exploration theme. It would be rather difficult to take a narrower world like Theros and expand it very far without diluting what it's supposed to be. I could easily see a Theros set where the Poli discover a Persian inspired culture and have a war, but now it's not just a Greek mythology block but starts bringing in near eastern things as well. That could be great, but it would also change the nature of the plane.
Lastly, I acknowledge that a lot of these worlds of hats are fun. Theros is one of my favorite planes, but it's because I like Greek mythology and it's giving me what I want. The thing that makes it weak worldbuilding is that it's so obviously fan service: it hits all the beats you could demand from it, checks off all the boxes, and does it all great. The thing is, it gives me everything I knew wanted, but it doesn't give me anything else: no surprises, no innovations, no new discoveries or ideas. Kamigawa, on the other hand, gave me things I didn't even know I wanted to go along with the Ninja and samurai a dragons. And it crafted interesting cultures and stories. Eating memberberries is fun, but sometimes I want new and interesting things to member later.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ah I am sorry I mistook your intention with that.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I hate how Maro is such a biased salesman behind his rational facade. For example the new worlds all rank rather low with very questionable reasoning on some of them. Can't wait for 2025, when he will be able to talk about why Amonkhet or Ixalan failed and how the new return to Ixalan will totally fix all that and be super special awesome!
First of, and I will fight for that, Amonkhet was awesome. Being a small plane with a single self-contained culture is not always the bad thing some of you are trying to portray it as. In this case it was even justified, since the plane is described as being nearly dead and having suffered from a catastrophe way before Bolas got his hands on it. There just isn't much left of it. (I'm actually mad about Maro seemingly thinking that it blew up at the end. I mean, there were survivors and Hazoreth still lives as well...) I would also argue that worlds with actual gods which interact more or less directly with the populace would pretty much force the cultures on these planes to be relatively homogenous, so I don't see the problem with Theros and Amonkhet not having the varied cultures of Tarkir or Dominaria. Ixalans problems were mostly about the moral superficiality, NOT the actual worldbuilding, which was in my opinion pretty well done. Not my favorite world, but still.
Now Kamigawa. I personally liked it. But from what I can gather, many of the Kamigawa fans here seriously try to downplay how much even the flavor and worldbuilding was rejected when it came out. You might lament the fact that taking out the spirits etc. and introducing more popular japanese tropes into it is making it more superficial, but remember, tropes are not bad. In fact quite a few things in Kamigawa were so far away from the actual japanese mythology that the connection felt kind of forced (I don't really see much of a connection between the kitsune in the legends and those on the plane for example, except for that they resemble foxes). And let's face it, many parts of Kamigawa simply failed. I'm not even agreeing with it having "varied cultures", since everything is very clear cut between color lines in that regard. That's the thing I personally liked the least about it: It felt small and very much divided into cultural units. You had humans from each color, one nonhuman species for each color, one location for each color. Not the most creative way of worldbuilding. So I get Maro. Still, I think a compromise could be made to "modernize" Kamigawa without losing too much of its identity and that this would be worth exploring at least in a supplemental set.
First off, I haven't seen anyone argue that the spirits matter aspect of Kamigawa should be preseced. Quite the contrary, people who defend Kamigawa have been saying that not only would having fewer Kami be a good idea, it would actually be required if you follow the lore surrounding the plane, and as hundreds of years have passed in lore using the Kami as a reason not to go back is dishonest.
Kamigawa is actually a very small plane, or we've only seen a small part of it. Yet it feels bigger that a plane like Zendikar because the places we vists and the cultures we interact with are better defined, more varied, and better developed.
I agree that tropes aren't necessarily bad, but building a world based solely on tropes isn't good worldbuilding. That said, we as a fanbase don't always want good worldbuilding. We also want fanservice theme sets that let us get things we like added to magic. I'm happy that Theros exists because it let's us get Greek mythology themed stuff into magic. It's not good worldbuilding, but it is good fan service. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one to get the other. Personally, I'd be happiest with wizards focusing on some worlds as their good worldbuilding worlds, places that let Magic have something of its own identity, and other worlds as fan service worlds, places that exist just to be cool. The former can grow and develop magics core identity while the latter can be magics take on a setting. That's actually what they have been doing for awhile with mixed results. The latter can sometimes develop into the former, like Ravnica did, based on how well they create their own identity rather than just leaning on delivering tropes.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I seem to recall that Kamigawa is actually a fairly big plane, though we've only seen a little bit of it. In visions granted by Mochi, Toshi and Michiko see great oceans (and I believe continents). Also, there are other lands speculated to lie even farther east of Jukai Forest (which is the eastern boundary of the Kamigawa we currently know) but Jukai is so vast that no one has been beyond it.
Here's the specific quote from the third Kamigawa book, as Konda and his mothriders fly over the forest in their hunt for Toshi:
"The landscape below fascinated Konda. Neither he nor his armies had ever pressed this far east before. After he reclaimed the Taken One and restored the tower at Eiganjo, he would consider sending a proper expedition to finally map eastern Jukai and beyond. If there were nations at the far side of the woods, they must also come under Konda's protection. Someday, he expected, even the orochi will be brought under his banner."
Alas, it was not to be.
Yes but it is entirely possible Sengir and his army went through the Ulgrotha Portal before the Mending.
Mr Barrin this Cube is on Fire!! - http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/80149
WG Kei Takahashi: Is in Charge Now !? (EDH) WG
Theros should be so saturated and steeped with Legendary locations and lands that it feels on par with Kamigawa. You can't really appreciate a pantheon of 14 gods ruling over three city-states. We get references to Troy, but where is the Theros Troy? We see it in Launch the Fleet, but when it comes down to the trope expression, we got Akroan Horse instead. So Akros is both Sparta and Troy? Absurd.
Many of these planes need expanding. They have the potential, but lack the execution.
Theros has a lot of its own unique mythology as well to tap into now. Seeing Sagas representing Kynaois and Tiro founding Meletis, Thassa's tears forming the Dakra isles when the triton queen Korinna is killed, the murder of Elspeth, Kytheon becoming Sun's Champion, Pavos and his lover dying under the Emonberry Tree, etc. these are a beautiful way to show THEROS myths on cards, depicting more elegant and unique aspects of colors that transcend the typical war scenes that make this game feel linear and nauseating to anyone who isn't a straight white nerd living in basement, which isn't the demographic of Magic at all in my experience.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I wasn't a fan of Ixalan too much but I think they could do a lot more in terms of fleshing it out an developing it more
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I guarantee you, and I'm willing to bet my head on this: the Ixalan story was never at first intended to be a farce, nor was it written as one. That was a BS claim by the writers after the story took a nosedive and fans expressed dismay with various elements, an attempt to save face. It was the story team refusing to admit they botched it and saying instead, "Oh, we meant to do that."
Jace and Vraska came out of Ixalan looking good, but nothing else did.
I think Angarth also came out of Ixalan looking good, but considering they're all planeswalkers, there's no need to return to Ixalan.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
It is a shame to see Kamigawa still ranking so poorly. Basically, there's plenty to do with the setting, but it's just impossible to convince the bigwigs to return to something that was a commercial failure the first time. Kamigawa looks better in retrospect than it did at the time in many ways, but enough years have passed, that we can see what was working and what wasn't.
I think the biggest world-building mistake they've made in recent years was the de-wedging of Tarkir. I would love a return to a wedge-centered Tarkir. It looks like Wizards is thinking the same thing.
I personally like the storybook art-style of Lorwyn, but the key elements of Lorwyn and Shadowmoor (the tribal focus, and the hybrid focus) neither one led to a great setting. Personally, I would like to see hybrid mana used more, but they shouldn't have made a whole block about it. Lorwyn failed to find any focus other than on the tribes, and not everybody wants to pick a tribe and build. Innistrad's tribal subtheme is much much stronger than the tribal superthemes of Lorwyn or Ixalan. The theme is present and felt, but isn't the defining feature.
Like many, I really liked Zendikar, and like many, I found Battle for Zendikar to be poorly executed. Nevertheless, I'm not that excited for a return to eldrazi-less Zendikar. I don't feel like the setting goes all that deep. There are quests and adventures, but that is more tone than anything, and Ixalan or Theros could just as easily be used as adventure-worlds. The main thing Zendikar has going for it is the land theme. Zendikar and Worldwake were mostly great because they had a lot of great cards: fetchlands, manlands, Squadron Hawk, Goblin Guide, Stoneforge Mystic, landfall beaters, Jace the overpowered, and more. That's the real reason Zendikar 1 was so popular, just like shocklands are a huge part of every Ravnica set's success.
Return to Theros looks promising. We needed a setting with a prominent enchantment theme, and there's plenty more to do with that as well as with the Greek setting.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I mean you sure it wasnt classic putting Jace over the top? You want SJW stuff that be in my book more shown in Dom with Jhoira being the greatest ever and Teferi pretty much a failure. Teferi needs Jhoira to get his spark, Jhoira and his daughter to solve a puzzle...Jhoira doesn't need Teferi to fix the Weatherlight. Then Jhoira and the new crew are shown just as strong as Teferi, Karn and Jaya against a damn specter.
Though I think SJW gets shouted about too much
Yes, yes, let your hate flow through you
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
To be fair, Jhoira IS an artificer and was the original captain of the original Weatherlight. Her showing up Teferi at the end of the puzzle is one thing, but her being able to fix something that she is intimately familiar with, as a master artificer, without seeking help from a guy that was never an artificer, isn't a stretch.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, the discussion did already cover that. Building a world up over time is of course going to make it deeper. Something built over 8 years is generally going to have better world building than something slapped together in 6 months. Its completely legitimate to point that out, and it doesn't mean we have to grade on a curve.
As you point out, it does make sense not to expect the same quality from something slapped together in 6 months vs something built up over time, which is why I never expect any new plane to be as deep, diverse, and fleshed out as Dominaria, but you can still judge them in other ways. One of the ways is too look at how well the plane is set up to grow beyond being just a 'hat' world. A plane like Ixalan is a place where we haven't seen most of the plane and which has a lot of room to grow into an interesting, developed, strongly built world over several visits. Innistrad promised that as well with hints of other continents (and perhaps other cultured with their own horror), but the return was just the same we had seen, now with Eldrazi. Should a third visit still focus on the same small slice of the plane, they'd be squandering some of the foundation they layed.
We've only seen the foundation so far, but I would rate the foundation as strong, even if the story was bad the setting is good. The other way is simply to compare such planes to eachother. Ravnica, block 1, was a better example of worldbuilding than Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. While retcons have degraded it somewhat, I agree, it still stacks near the top.
Amonkhet is interesting because it actually did a great job worldbuilding for the needs of the story. The city and trials were well developed, and the world had an interesting hook, and all this was layered on top of the Egyptian theme. It's main limitation is that it lacks room to grow, but that happens when you world build for an essentially dead world, even when you do a good job of it. I'm fairly ambivalent to whether a return would lead to the world getting fleshed out more or just degraded into a generic Egyptian theme.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Dominaria though has the benefit of more sets to flavor the plane and its also the only plane that isn't really tied to a unified theme. Its just a fully realized Fantasy World. Its not Greco-Roman Inspired or Egpytian Inspired or anything.
Yeah, her being able to just respark Teferi was poorly done, though as you rightly complained about in the Dominaria thread its largely because it happens offscreen. We still don't know how the hell the Mana Rig can respark someone. As a master artificer, I'd accept Jhoira being able to figure out how to do it if its a process entirely reliant on the mana rig (meaning, the operator's magical abilities are irrelevant and everything relies on the Mana Rig). Still, it was very out of left field. Its never explained how she found or acquired his spark. Certainly the mana rig is capable of putting sparks in power stones, but how she got hold of Teferi's specifically, how she knew it was his, and how it survived being used to seal Shiv. You're right that if she was able to figure it out, Teferi should have been able to do it. The only exception would be if this was an intended function of the Mana Rig, and she happened upon this functionality while restoring it. Of course, this is all conjecture. Like so many Magic stories, its simple enough to come up with satisfactory explanations, which makes it worse that Wizards didn't.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!