Good God, if Ravnica 3 ends up with Jace still as the Living Guildpact, imma gonna Phage-slap him and/or somebody.
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
Good God, if Ravnica 3 ends up with Jace still as the Living Guildpact, imma gonna Phage-slap him and/or somebody.
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Good God, if Ravnica 3 ends up with Jace still as the Living Guildpact, imma gonna Phage-slap him and/or somebody.
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
Except Jace didn't appear in every storyline, before the gatewatch he was the main character in AoA and RtR and a supporting character in Zendikar. And card wise, until very recently Jace has shared being the "walker with the most cards" with other characters.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Good God, if Ravnica 3 ends up with Jace still as the Living Guildpact, imma gonna Phage-slap him and/or somebody.
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
Except Jace didn't appear in every storyline, before the gatewatch he was the main character in AoA and RtR and a supporting character in Zendikar. And card wise, until very recently Jace has shared being the "walker with the most cards" with other characters.
Fatigue over a certain character is based on feelings and not facts. Bottom line is many people -deservedly or undeservedly, I don't dare making a judgement here- are bored of Jace and of the gatewatch in general. It should also be noted that Jace is the go to face for Magic and usually included in most core sets while the other colours have a bit more rotation. Jace does get more screentime than other planeswalkers.
It might also have to do with the fact that Jace just doesn't appeal to many. He is clearly supposed to be a player insert. Young, mysterious, powerful, somewhat edgy with his original "straddles between white and black" blurb. It checks all the boxes for your archetypical fanfic insert and remember, "You are a planeswalker." I mean, it apparently works for plenty of people. Jace is supposedly one of the most liked characters, despite what a loud minority claims, but here's the thing: Magic is a different game to everyone. (Quote shamelessly plugged from Maro articles.) Everyone likes different things. This also extends into the storyline. Magic's greatest creative strength is its variation. There's multiple planes, places, people. Having the same character show up every second set clashes severely with the richness of the setting, hence why some people feel oversaturated with Jace.
I wasn't around in the community during the Weatherlight saga, so I don't know how that was seen during its time, but personally I found the time from Mirrodin (original) to Magic Origins with its individual stories to be the best approach to storytelling in Magic. Tell individual stories, perhaps loosely connected by various, rotating planeswalkers. It makes the multiverse look big and lively. It made the planes into actors rather than just the stage.
Good God, if Ravnica 3 ends up with Jace still as the Living Guildpact, imma gonna Phage-slap him and/or somebody.
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
Except Jace didn't appear in every storyline, before the gatewatch he was the main character in AoA and RtR and a supporting character in Zendikar. And card wise, until very recently Jace has shared being the "walker with the most cards" with other characters.
Fatigue over a certain character is based on feelings and not facts. Bottom line is many people -deservedly or undeservedly, I don't dare making a judgement here- are bored of Jace and of the gatewatch in general. It should also be noted that Jace is the go to face for Magic and usually included in most core sets while the other colours have a bit more rotation. Jace does get more screentime than other planeswalkers.
Not really. Chandra was the go to red walker for every core set except M19 (which Jace didn't appear as well) and until Magic Origins we saw Garruk in every coreset (though Nissa was the green walker with M15). In number of cards, Jace has had more card than walkers the time between Ravnica and m14 and then alternating on and off with Chandra post Origins.
And my point really is while Jace is the poster child, it wasn't like he was the main character. I don't mind if people don't care for Jace, I do care when people trying to say he's been the main character storyline-wise when that is untrue and that he's gotten the most walkers cards when that is only somewhat true.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Can we use this thread to discuss Ravnica Allegiance, or has that discussion entirely shifted to the Artbook spoilers thread?
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
Except Jace didn't appear in every storyline, before the gatewatch he was the main character in AoA and RtR and a supporting character in Zendikar. And card wise, until very recently Jace has shared being the "walker with the most cards" with other characters.
Fatigue over a certain character is based on feelings and not facts. Bottom line is many people -deservedly or undeservedly, I don't dare making a judgement here- are bored of Jace and of the gatewatch in general. It should also be noted that Jace is the go to face for Magic and usually included in most core sets while the other colours have a bit more rotation. Jace does get more screentime than other planeswalkers.
Not really. Chandra was the go to red walker for every core set except M19 (which Jace didn't appear as well) and until Magic Origins we saw Garruk in every coreset (though Nissa was the green walker with M15). In number of cards, Jace has had more card than walkers the time between Ravnica and m14 and then alternating on and off with Chandra post Origins.
And my point really is while Jace is the poster child, it wasn't like he was the main character. I don't mind if people don't care for Jace, I do care when people trying to say he's been the main character storyline-wise when that is untrue and that he's gotten the most walkers cards when that is only somewhat true.
Okay, so if Mickey Mouse had appeared in 7 out of the last 10 Disney movies, and had been the main character in 4 of them, would that have made Disney movies better or worse? Would movies like Frozen, Brave, and Moana have been better with Mickey Mouse in them, or if Mickey Mouse was in those movies would people get sick of him?
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
Except Jace didn't appear in every storyline, before the gatewatch he was the main character in AoA and RtR and a supporting character in Zendikar. And card wise, until very recently Jace has shared being the "walker with the most cards" with other characters.
Fatigue over a certain character is based on feelings and not facts. Bottom line is many people -deservedly or undeservedly, I don't dare making a judgement here- are bored of Jace and of the gatewatch in general. It should also be noted that Jace is the go to face for Magic and usually included in most core sets while the other colours have a bit more rotation. Jace does get more screentime than other planeswalkers.
Not really. Chandra was the go to red walker for every core set except M19 (which Jace didn't appear as well) and until Magic Origins we saw Garruk in every coreset (though Nissa was the green walker with M15). In number of cards, Jace has had more card than walkers the time between Ravnica and m14 and then alternating on and off with Chandra post Origins.
And my point really is while Jace is the poster child, it wasn't like he was the main character. I don't mind if people don't care for Jace, I do care when people trying to say he's been the main character storyline-wise when that is untrue and that he's gotten the most walkers cards when that is only somewhat true.
Okay, so if Mickey Mouse had appeared in 7 out of the last 10 Disney movies, and had been the main character in 4 of them, would that have made Disney movies better or worse? Would movies like Frozen, Brave, and Moana have been better with Mickey Mouse in them, or if Mickey Mouse was in those movies would people get sick of him?
You lost me with your metaphor especially since disney storytelling is much different than magic. Better example would be looking at comic book/comic book movies and how often they have Batman/spiderman around. And yeah they get the most love, but as we get other members of the justice league/avengers, we got major storylines of Elspeth (who was a main character everytime we saw her), Sorin, Sarkhan and the other character who would be members of the gatewatch. Since then he and every member have in every storyline except for them splitting off in Ixalan and Dominaria. Its more like Jace gets the first
Again you can say you dislike Jace but him being the main character and appearing in everything pre-gatewatch isn't true.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
When did I say he was in everything pre-gatewatch?
If you want to go off of comic book movies, the best and most successful ones recently have been Black Panther and Wonder Woman. Black Panther would have been worse if it had Spiderman in it, and Wonder Woman would have been worse if it had Batman in it. I’m glad that Batman wasn’t in V for Vendetta, and Spiderman wasn’t in the first 2 Captain America movies, Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor Ragnorock. Honestly, I’m sick of Spiderman and Batman movies, and it’s a good thing they apprear in less than 50% of DC/Marcel movies. If Spiderman was in over 50% of the MCU movies, and was the main character in 25% of them, people would be sick of him also.
When did I say he was in everything pre-gatewatch?
I was claryifnyg that since the gatewatch all the members have been involved in the storylines in someway or another. Jace has gotten some more solo time than the other characters, but all of them have gotten some time in the spotlight as well.
If you want to go off of comic book movies, the best and most successful ones recently have been Black Panther and Wonder Woman. Black Panther would have been worse if it had Spiderman in it, and Wonder Woman would have been worse if it had Batman in it. I’m glad that Batman wasn’t in V for Vendetta, and Spiderman wasn’t in the first 2 Captain America movies, Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor Ragnorock. Honestly, I’m sick of Spiderman and Batman movies, and it’s a good thing they apprear in less than 50% of DC/Marcel movies. If Spiderman was in over 50% of the MCU movies, and was the main character in 25% of them, people would be sick of him also.
Yup and Alara, Mirrodin 2, Innistrad 1, Theros and Tarkir all didn't have Jace in them. And thats my point, before the gatewatch having all the member appearing every storyline Jace was featured in core sets, Zendikar, Ravnica 2 and a novel. Post gatewatch Jace has switched in and out of being the leading protagonist with the other gatewatch members and other planeswalkers.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
When did I say he was in everything pre-gatewatch?
I was claryifnyg that since the gatewatch all the members have been involved in the storylines in someway or another. Jace has gotten some more solo time than the other characters, but all of them have gotten some time in the spotlight as well.
If you want to go off of comic book movies, the best and most successful ones recently have been Black Panther and Wonder Woman. Black Panther would have been worse if it had Spiderman in it, and Wonder Woman would have been worse if it had Batman in it. I’m glad that Batman wasn’t in V for Vendetta, and Spiderman wasn’t in the first 2 Captain America movies, Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor Ragnorock. Honestly, I’m sick of Spiderman and Batman movies, and it’s a good thing they apprear in less than 50% of DC/Marcel movies. If Spiderman was in over 50% of the MCU movies, and was the main character in 25% of them, people would be sick of him also.
Yup and Alara, Mirrodin 2, Innistrad 1, Theros and Tarkir all didn't have Jace in them. And thats my point, before the gatewatch having all the member appearing every storyline Jace was featured in core sets, Zendikar, Ravnica 2 and a novel. Post gatewatch Jace has switched in and out of being the leading protagonist with the other gatewatch members and other planeswalkers.
Okay, so if we want to make the marvel comparison, Iron Man is probably a better example than Spiderman. There have been 20 MCU movies, and Iron Man has been the main character in 3 of them, or 15% and has appeared in 8 of them, or 40%.
Since RTR there have been 10 expansions that I count, not counting core sets, Commander, or masters sets.
Jace has been the main character in 3 of them, or 30%, and Jace has been in 6 of them or 60%.
So it would be like if MCU had made Iron Man 4, 5, and 6, and if Iron Man had been an additional movie, like Black Panther. And then when people complained about Iron Man being in too many stories, people like you would say that’s disengenuous because Captain America is in a lot of movies also.
When did I say he was in everything pre-gatewatch?
I was claryifnyg that since the gatewatch all the members have been involved in the storylines in someway or another. Jace has gotten some more solo time than the other characters, but all of them have gotten some time in the spotlight as well.
If you want to go off of comic book movies, the best and most successful ones recently have been Black Panther and Wonder Woman. Black Panther would have been worse if it had Spiderman in it, and Wonder Woman would have been worse if it had Batman in it. I’m glad that Batman wasn’t in V for Vendetta, and Spiderman wasn’t in the first 2 Captain America movies, Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor Ragnorock. Honestly, I’m sick of Spiderman and Batman movies, and it’s a good thing they apprear in less than 50% of DC/Marcel movies. If Spiderman was in over 50% of the MCU movies, and was the main character in 25% of them, people would be sick of him also.
Yup and Alara, Mirrodin 2, Innistrad 1, Theros and Tarkir all didn't have Jace in them. And thats my point, before the gatewatch having all the member appearing every storyline Jace was featured in core sets, Zendikar, Ravnica 2 and a novel. Post gatewatch Jace has switched in and out of being the leading protagonist with the other gatewatch members and other planeswalkers.
Okay, so if we want to make the marvel comparison, Iron Man is probably a better example than Spiderman. There have been 20 MCU movies, and Iron Man has been the main character in 3 of them, or 15% and has appeared in 8 of them, or 40%.
Since RTR there have been 10 expansions that I count, not counting core sets, Commander, or masters sets.
Jace has been the main character in 3 of them, or 30%, and Jace has been in 6 of them or 60%.
So it would be like if MCU had made Iron Man 4, 5, and 6, and if Iron Man had been an additional movie, like Black Panther. And then when people complained about Iron Man being in too many stories, people like you would say that’s disengenuous because Captain America is in a lot of movies also.
That works better and again Jace still isn't the main character like you claim. Since RtR/Origins he's shared with the other gatewatch members, not really "Iron Man" movies but "Avengers" movies. Which has been the issue creative is trying to fix now, they have been making more Avengers movies and not enough "solo" films.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
That works better and again Jace still isn't the main character like you claim. Since RtR/Origins he's shared with the other gatewatch members, not really "Iron Man" movies but "Avengers" movies. Which has been the issue creative is trying to fix now, they have been making more Avengers movies and not enough "solo" films.
Yeah, however one thing that you seem to have forgotten...
Alike the MCU storyline people aren't following this storyline in a vacuum. Peoples complaint isn't so much the frequency of seeing Jace, it's the frequency of his necessity to the overall, long term plotline.
Jace was one the first five walkers to appear in Lorwyn. At that time, they heavily promoted Jace to an audience that didn't particularly like him, and was more interested in the other four walkers. After that, we had Alara which introduced new thematic walkers (and the return of Bolas). However, that still shoehorned in Jace using a connection to Tezzeret and Bolas. Then Zendikar, which... shoehorned in Jace to the detriment of the story (as I view it).
Then we jumped over to Mirrodin, which brought us reprieve in that we had no Jace, the return and adaption of a favoured enemy and a favoured setting, and a lot of people hated it. The reason? Venser's entire storyline at the time was criticised for being 'too much like Jace'. That may have been forgetten in time as people retrospectively interpret his character, but it was a criticism that was made.
Then we got Innistrad, which was a reprieve from Jace. Momentarily...
Because then we returned to Ravnica, and low and behold, Jace was front and center. What irked so many is that he then became a living MacGuffin. He also (as some view it) stole the literal identity of Ravnica into his own character as a shallow attempt to make people like him. It backfired. More people ended up hating him for being a living macguffin that damaged the identity of their favourite plane.
Theros then gave us a reprieve from Jace, but not from Gideon who was a very polarising character at the time, with some for and some against. Notably most of those against disliked his (then) similarities to Jace in the way his story was handled, which early on telegraphed that the Gatewatch would become a thing.
Then Tarkir happened. Most people forgot the story of this because it handled time travel badly, did major retcon work to Bolas and Ugin (that angered just about everyone), and it's main protagonist was criticised as a lazy pastiche of elements of Jace and Gideon (who were both still disliked by the general audience). It also introduced the wedge plane everyone wanted... to immediately destroy that identity thanks to the Jace pastiche.
During that time however we had side stories happening that was supposed to follow Ral. Unfortunately this quickly devolved into Jace + Jace, as he got shoehorned in there (with Gideon) in the worst plot setup for a set I've seen in a while, which wheeled into Eldrazikar. This is when the pattern really begins to set in: another fan favourite plane (not mine, I hate it), that involved Jace (or a pastiche of him), and involved a fan favourite setting being irrevocably destroyed or it's identity forever changing. This only fanned animosity for Jace, especially with the perceived ease he defeated the Eldrazi. Oh wait, what happens next...
We go back to another fan favourite plane (also not mine, I hate it) and low and behold, Jace is there. Now previously, it's been one block on (Jace) and one block off (pastiche), but now they're just forcing him down the audience's throats. And low and behold, the core of the story is the plane's identity being irrevocably changed and Jace having a hand in it and/or being the one to solve the problem. Nevermind that you had Tamiyo there, the fact she was an afterthought as compared to Jace's necromantic booty obsession and the criminally overlooked Nahiri/Sorin story, in the end it all came down to 'Jace Kaioken x10'.
From there we went to Kaladesh, and while supposed to be an artifact set involving rebellion, drama, social politics and everyone's (modern) favourite artifact baddie Tezzeret, even with a big Ajani plot point, most people criticised it for Jace. Because despite the fact he could of had no screentime, they had to shoehorn him in anyway. Oh and look, the pattern continues of plane everyone enjoys... with it's identity completely destroyed. Hmmm.
Then we go to Amonkhet, another plane everyone loves the world of (despite it being a fascist military meritocracy). Now this one we 'knew' was going to be destroyed, so any audience member surprised here when it's completely torn asunder is just naive. In fact, it's main approval was watching the Gatewatch get bodied by Bolas, because people were generally sick of the Gatewatch at this point (yet notably only when it involved Jace). Gideon got substantial character development in this set that truly distinguished him from Jace and gained his own audience.
From there we got Ixalan, which makes four Jace sets, yayyy. It also brought people pirates, so if you're a fan of those, great! If you're not? Sucks to be you! Sadly those pirates got Jace'd, which ruined the pirates for a considerable portion of their fans. We also got the return of Azor, a huge piece of fan service... that Jace exiled into plot irrelevance reminding everyone of how Jace disregards the general plot (being the GuffinPact). Notably Ixalan's biggest criticism is Jace and his superficial character-centric plot, while it's most applauded notion are the Pirates, Dinosaurs and White Vampires.
From there we went to Dominaria, return to a plane people adore and with no Jace. And people went wild. They loved seeing the return of characters that were similar but distinct to the Gatewatch members. It capitalised on Gideon's improved character, continued Lilith's story, and didn't involve Jace... until it did, in the most criticised part of Dominaria, which is the Jace cameo. Which also added precisely nothing to the story as it was redundant in respect of the future Project Lightning Bug. Fortunately as Jace didn't stick around, Dominaria didn't have it's audience identity completely destroyed.
Oh, nevermind, they rammed out a Spellbook thing based on Jace. Which received criticism because it could of been any other PW, but no, they had to ram Jace in, because you can't be allowed to forget that Jace is plot-armor superion of audience upset.
Then we're back to Ravnica, and thank goth that there has been no Jace. We got to focus on the Guilds, and how things have changed precisely because Jace isn't in the one place he should be, and it's causing the systematic destruction of another fan favourite plane...
And then we will have War of the Spark, where it's heavily suspected that instead of Ajani, who was originally set up to combat Bolas, we're going to quick swerve to Jace being the hero. But not after the entire identity and culture that the audience loves about Ravnica is completely destroyed. In a set that should be about a planeswalker war, instead it's increasingly likely to be all about a war over Jace's guildpact infused spark. So he can go on to be Guildpact of the Multiverse, because we needed an Adam Warlock Above All in MTG, that can be used to simply reset problems in the multiverse so nobody has to write convincing endings. And sure, it has parallels to Azor's naive rigidity and Liliana's selfish pursuit of her own goals despite the consequences, but it's also shallow.
And yes, while there is going to be a new weatherlight, because Magic repeats it's story beats over and over with different gloss in the hope you don't notice, it's not unpredictable and isn't particularly fun for the audience, especially when a pattern has existed of destroying the fan favourite planes for a cheap emotional reaction now in trade for long term audience respect, investment and story potential.
Case in point: Marvel made the same mistakes and had to run a series called Time Runs Out, and then Secret Wars 2015, so they could restore all their fan favourites (or adaptions of them) after angering many of their audience members. Similarly they did this with House of M as well in regards to their various mutant-X teams.
That works better and again Jace still isn't the main character like you claim. Since RtR/Origins he's shared with the other gatewatch members, not really "Iron Man" movies but "Avengers" movies. Which has been the issue creative is trying to fix now, they have been making more Avengers movies and not enough "solo" films.
Yeah, however one thing that you seem to have forgotten...
Alike the MCU storyline people aren't following this storyline in a vacuum. Peoples complaint isn't so much the frequency of seeing Jace, it's the frequency of his necessity to the overall, long term plotline.
Jace was one the first five walkers to appear in Lorwyn. At that time, they heavily promoted Jace to an audience that didn't particularly like him, and was more interested in the other four walkers.
What are you talking about out of the lorwyn 5 Jace was the most popular.
After that, we had Alara which introduced new thematic walkers (and the return of Bolas). However, that still shoehorned in Jace using a connection to Tezzeret and Bolas. [quote]
Jace wasn't involved with Alara, at all. He was in the novel which was around this time which set up him, Tezzeret and Liliana relationships.
[quote]Then Zendikar, which... shoehorned in Jace to the detriment of the story (as I view it).
How so? They been showing that Jace had been following Chandra which all part of a plot of Bolas during before hand.
Then we jumped over to Mirrodin, which brought us reprieve in that we had no Jace, the return and adaption of a favoured enemy and a favoured setting, and a lot of people hated it. The reason? Venser's entire storyline at the time was criticised for being 'too much like Jace'. That may have been forgetten in time as people retrospectively interpret his character, but it was a criticism that was made.
I have never heard of this, I think most people were upset that he was a drug addict and being BFF with Karn when they barley talked to each other in Time Spiral. And using how some people interpret a character is a reach to say Jace was involved in the story.
Because then we returned to Ravnica, and low and behold, Jace was front and center. What irked so many is that he then became a living MacGuffin. He also (as some view it) stole the literal identity of Ravnica into his own character as a shallow attempt to make people like him. It backfired. More people ended up hating him for being a living macguffin that damaged the identity of their favourite plane.
Thats a pretty fair case.
Theros then gave us a reprieve from Jace, but not from Gideon who was a very polarising character at the time, with some for and some against. Notably most of those against disliked his (then) similarities to Jace in the way his story was handled, which early on telegraphed that the Gatewatch would become a thing.
We talking about Jace bud and Gideon didn't appear at in Theros outside one flavor text card as Kytheon. And really after this your points get messy.
Then Tarkir happened. Most people forgot the story of this because it handled time travel badly, did major retcon work to Bolas and Ugin (that angered just about everyone), and it's main protagonist was criticised as a lazy pastiche of elements of Jace and Gideon (who were both still disliked by the general audience). It also introduced the wedge plane everyone wanted... to immediately destroy that identity thanks to the Jace pastiche.
This is such a reach, no one was comparing Sarkhan to Jace or Gideon and this so wildly off topic. Also it was this last core set that had had retcons to Bolas and Ugin, not the Khans of Tarkir story. I think you need to go back and look through the storyline again because a lot of your storyline know seems shakey to what happened.
During that time however we had side stories happening that was supposed to follow Ral. Unfortunately this quickly devolved into Jace + Jace, as he got shoehorned in there (with Gideon) in the worst plot setup for a set I've seen in a while, which wheeled into Eldrazikar. This is when the pattern really begins to set in: another fan favourite plane (not mine, I hate it), that involved Jace (or a pastiche of him), and involved a fan favourite setting being irrevocably destroyed or it's identity forever changing. This only fanned animosity for Jace, especially with the perceived ease he defeated the Eldrazi. Oh wait, what happens next...
This again is such a reach, claiming other characters are pastiche of Jace is your interpret ( I have never heard a person say this) and that must mean he been in every storyline. Also
During that time however we had side stories happening that was supposed to follow Ral.
Source for this? No where did I read project lighting bug was meant to just be a Ral story.
We go back to another fan favourite plane (also not mine, I hate it) and low and behold, Jace is there. Now previously, it's been one block on (Jace) and one block off (pastiche), but now they're just forcing him down the audience's throats. And low and behold, the core of the story is the plane's identity being irrevocably changed and Jace having a hand in it and/or being the one to solve the problem. Nevermind that you had Tamiyo there, the fact she was an afterthought as compared to Jace's necromantic booty obsession and the criminally overlooked Nahiri/Sorin story, in the end it all came down to 'Jace Kaioken x10'.
The gatewatch lost though. Emrakul wanted to be sealed. And while a Foucsed on Jace as you mention we had Liliana, SOrin and Nahiri as major characters as well Tamiyo getting some love. And while changed around, Innistrad is still a horror plane and felt very much the same in the recent Sanderson novel set there.
From there we went to Kaladesh, and while supposed to be an artifact set involving rebellion, drama, social politics and everyone's (modern) favourite artifact baddie Tezzeret, even with a big Ajani plot point, most people criticised it for Jace. Because despite the fact he could of had no screentime, they had to shoehorn him in anyway. Oh and look, the pattern continues of plane everyone enjoys... with it's identity completely destroyed. Hmmm.
Kaladesh identity wasn't changed, its still optimistic aether-punk world. And Jace literally did *one* thing of note the whole time and that was do illusions to help the rebels. Kaladesh was Chandra's story mostly with Nissa and Liliana playing support.
From there we got Ixalan, which makes four Jace sets, yayyy. It also brought people pirates, so if you're a fan of those, great! If you're not? Sucks to be you! Sadly those pirates got Jace'd, which ruined the pirates for a considerable portion of their fans. We also got the return of Azor, a huge piece of fan service... that Jace exiled into plot irrelevance reminding everyone of how Jace disregards the general plot (being the GuffinPact). Notably Ixalan's biggest criticism is Jace and his superficial character-centric plot, while it's most applauded notion are the Pirates, Dinosaurs and White Vampires.
Literally most Jace haters I know enjoyed Ixalan and most people agree the Jace and Vraska part of Ixalan was the best parts.
From there we went to Dominaria, return to a plane people adore and with no Jace. And people went wild. They loved seeing the return of characters that were similar but distinct to the Gatewatch members. It capitalised on Gideon's improved character, continued Lilith's story, and didn't involve Jace... until it did, in the most criticised part of Dominaria, which is the Jace cameo. Which also added precisely nothing to the story as it was redundant in respect of the future Project Lightning Bug. Fortunately as Jace didn't stick around, Dominaria didn't have it's audience identity completely destroyed.
Yeah people where upset because they loved how Alison Luhrs soft rebooted him in Ixalan and got the impression that growth was lost since Martha Wells focused more on Jace not trust Liliana during the scene. Ixalan and Kaladesh before didn't lose their identity or destroyed.
Oh, nevermind, they rammed out a Spellbook thing based on Jace. Which received criticism because it could of been any other PW, but no, they had to ram Jace in, because you can't be allowed to forget that Jace is plot-armor superion of audience upset.
Yes and we support to be getting more of those feature other planeswalkers. Jace got first because, he's the most popular. We can except Chandra, Liliana and Ajani in that order in next few years. Any who agin this dosnt relate to the topic of Jace being the lead character in all the storylines.
Then we're back to Ravnica, and thank goth that there has been no Jace. We got to focus on the Guilds, and how things have changed precisely because Jace isn't in the one place he should be, and it's causing the systematic destruction of another fan favourite plane...
And then we will have War of the Spark, where it's heavily suspected that instead of Ajani, who was originally set up to combat Bolas, we're going to quick swerve to Jace being the hero. But not after the entire identity and culture that the audience loves about Ravnica is completely destroyed. In a set that should be about a planeswalker war, instead it's increasingly likely to be all about a war over Jace's guildpact infused spark. So he can go on to be Guildpact of the Multiverse, because we needed an Adam Warlock Above All in MTG, that can be used to simply reset problems in the multiverse so nobody has to write convincing endings. And sure, it has parallels to Azor's naive rigidity and Liliana's selfish pursuit of her own goals despite the consequences, but it's also shallow.
:roll eyes: or maybe wait and see what happens in the story.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
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Well my problem with Innistrad is basically the same for Ravnica.
I expected more focus on Sorin vs Nahiri and Teferi, Karn and Jhoira but no we had to focus on Jace/Lili Drama and then Gideon/Lili Drama.
I am honestly going to level with you guys here I think the problem with Dominaria is Wells empathized more with the ladies then the dudes in particular she cared more about Lili and Jhoira then she did Jace and Teferi. Yeah Yeah sure she talked a good game about loving Teferi beforehand but I didn't see any of that in the writing.
So to make Lili look good Jace had to switch to being irrational and angry at Lili for no reason. Jace came across as a jealous ex with no rational thought. I mean sheesh its not like Bolas was attacking at that exact moment, Jace easily had time to help take out the Demon if the wanted to and rationally should have. He is recruiting new allies and basically telling them his plane is more important cause of future threat then a present one? I mean sheesh they finished Belzenlok the same day.
Same reason Teferi is failure sad sack that hasn't really done anything to get his Spark back or Zhalfir for 60+ Years. Jhoira apparently had time to teach at Tolaria West and get Teferi his spark somehow no explanation for an indeterminate amount of time and rebuild the Weatherlight. Meanwhile Teferi just spent years mopping in the desert, forgetting most of his magical abilities, didn't think about Urza maybe having a device that could help (even if logically it makes no sense for Urza to hide this given Urza in no way predicted Teferi leaving and didn't have time to hid anything) and even then needed Jhoira to solve the puzzle and math for him (cause for some reason Teferi cannot solve the math and Urza knows Teferi wouldn't think about Spirits but doesn't also prep for Jhoira who left at the same time as Teferi). She wanted the Ladies to shine so the Lads paid the price. Even if they had to be out of character to do it. Trying to keep this short don't want re litigate my arguments from last time.
I am massive Jace hater and even I appreciated the changes made on Ixalan personality wise. Jace part was strong besides how Azor was dealt with but I suppose there is bigger fish on Ixalan since the cards mostly lied and Hautli side of the story was so bad.
My half-baked theory for this month is that Wizards originally created the "Living Guildpact" role for Jace as a way to semi-retire him in the wake of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and complaints about his over-exposure. A way to take him off the table for the time being but make him available to appear in the future.
But then Magic: The Gathering gets optioned for a movie (coming never to a theater near you) and Creative Consultants asked Wizards who their 'Mickey Mouse' was, and they said "Jace". (MaRo has told a version of that story several times.) So they begin putting together the Gatewatch storyline with Jace at the front and center, but of course this creates a problem with Jace being "the Living Guildpact". So they decide to have Jace ignore his newfound responsibilities (whether that is out of character for him is a discussion I don't want to get into) until they could engineer a plot about him losing his status as "Living Guildpact". Nissa's visions in Amonkhet hinting that Bolas will use The Immortal Sun to destroy the Guildpact seems like it is leading in this direction.
The funny thing the Mickey Mouse comparison is that Disney hasn’t made a movie that has Mickey Mouse in ages. If Disney made movie after movie with Mickey Mouse in it, people would grow tired of it and it wouldn’t work as a buisness.
Just as Disney introduces new characters for movies like Alladin, the Lion King, Mulan, Moana, Brave, etc. Imagine how terrible those movies would be if Mickey Mouse was the main character in those movies. That’s the reason why people hate Jace. Well, that and the constant moaning. He was better in Ixalan, but the Return to Ravnica story was supposed to be about the Guilds but it had way too much about him moaning.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Except Jace didn't appear in every storyline, before the gatewatch he was the main character in AoA and RtR and a supporting character in Zendikar. And card wise, until very recently Jace has shared being the "walker with the most cards" with other characters.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Fatigue over a certain character is based on feelings and not facts. Bottom line is many people -deservedly or undeservedly, I don't dare making a judgement here- are bored of Jace and of the gatewatch in general. It should also be noted that Jace is the go to face for Magic and usually included in most core sets while the other colours have a bit more rotation. Jace does get more screentime than other planeswalkers.
It might also have to do with the fact that Jace just doesn't appeal to many. He is clearly supposed to be a player insert. Young, mysterious, powerful, somewhat edgy with his original "straddles between white and black" blurb. It checks all the boxes for your archetypical fanfic insert and remember, "You are a planeswalker." I mean, it apparently works for plenty of people. Jace is supposedly one of the most liked characters, despite what a loud minority claims, but here's the thing: Magic is a different game to everyone. (Quote shamelessly plugged from Maro articles.) Everyone likes different things. This also extends into the storyline. Magic's greatest creative strength is its variation. There's multiple planes, places, people. Having the same character show up every second set clashes severely with the richness of the setting, hence why some people feel oversaturated with Jace.
I wasn't around in the community during the Weatherlight saga, so I don't know how that was seen during its time, but personally I found the time from Mirrodin (original) to Magic Origins with its individual stories to be the best approach to storytelling in Magic. Tell individual stories, perhaps loosely connected by various, rotating planeswalkers. It makes the multiverse look big and lively. It made the planes into actors rather than just the stage.
At least, that's how I see it.
Not really. Chandra was the go to red walker for every core set except M19 (which Jace didn't appear as well) and until Magic Origins we saw Garruk in every coreset (though Nissa was the green walker with M15). In number of cards, Jace has had more card than walkers the time between Ravnica and m14 and then alternating on and off with Chandra post Origins.
And my point really is while Jace is the poster child, it wasn't like he was the main character. I don't mind if people don't care for Jace, I do care when people trying to say he's been the main character storyline-wise when that is untrue and that he's gotten the most walkers cards when that is only somewhat true.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Okay, so if Mickey Mouse had appeared in 7 out of the last 10 Disney movies, and had been the main character in 4 of them, would that have made Disney movies better or worse? Would movies like Frozen, Brave, and Moana have been better with Mickey Mouse in them, or if Mickey Mouse was in those movies would people get sick of him?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
You lost me with your metaphor especially since disney storytelling is much different than magic. Better example would be looking at comic book/comic book movies and how often they have Batman/spiderman around. And yeah they get the most love, but as we get other members of the justice league/avengers, we got major storylines of Elspeth (who was a main character everytime we saw her), Sorin, Sarkhan and the other character who would be members of the gatewatch. Since then he and every member have in every storyline except for them splitting off in Ixalan and Dominaria. Its more like Jace gets the first
Again you can say you dislike Jace but him being the main character and appearing in everything pre-gatewatch isn't true.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
If you want to go off of comic book movies, the best and most successful ones recently have been Black Panther and Wonder Woman. Black Panther would have been worse if it had Spiderman in it, and Wonder Woman would have been worse if it had Batman in it. I’m glad that Batman wasn’t in V for Vendetta, and Spiderman wasn’t in the first 2 Captain America movies, Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor Ragnorock. Honestly, I’m sick of Spiderman and Batman movies, and it’s a good thing they apprear in less than 50% of DC/Marcel movies. If Spiderman was in over 50% of the MCU movies, and was the main character in 25% of them, people would be sick of him also.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I was claryifnyg that since the gatewatch all the members have been involved in the storylines in someway or another. Jace has gotten some more solo time than the other characters, but all of them have gotten some time in the spotlight as well.
Yup and Alara, Mirrodin 2, Innistrad 1, Theros and Tarkir all didn't have Jace in them. And thats my point, before the gatewatch having all the member appearing every storyline Jace was featured in core sets, Zendikar, Ravnica 2 and a novel. Post gatewatch Jace has switched in and out of being the leading protagonist with the other gatewatch members and other planeswalkers.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Okay, so if we want to make the marvel comparison, Iron Man is probably a better example than Spiderman. There have been 20 MCU movies, and Iron Man has been the main character in 3 of them, or 15% and has appeared in 8 of them, or 40%.
Since RTR there have been 10 expansions that I count, not counting core sets, Commander, or masters sets.
Jace has been the main character in 3 of them, or 30%, and Jace has been in 6 of them or 60%.
So it would be like if MCU had made Iron Man 4, 5, and 6, and if Iron Man had been an additional movie, like Black Panther. And then when people complained about Iron Man being in too many stories, people like you would say that’s disengenuous because Captain America is in a lot of movies also.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
That works better and again Jace still isn't the main character like you claim. Since RtR/Origins he's shared with the other gatewatch members, not really "Iron Man" movies but "Avengers" movies. Which has been the issue creative is trying to fix now, they have been making more Avengers movies and not enough "solo" films.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yeah, however one thing that you seem to have forgotten...
Alike the MCU storyline people aren't following this storyline in a vacuum. Peoples complaint isn't so much the frequency of seeing Jace, it's the frequency of his necessity to the overall, long term plotline.
Jace was one the first five walkers to appear in Lorwyn. At that time, they heavily promoted Jace to an audience that didn't particularly like him, and was more interested in the other four walkers. After that, we had Alara which introduced new thematic walkers (and the return of Bolas). However, that still shoehorned in Jace using a connection to Tezzeret and Bolas. Then Zendikar, which... shoehorned in Jace to the detriment of the story (as I view it).
Then we jumped over to Mirrodin, which brought us reprieve in that we had no Jace, the return and adaption of a favoured enemy and a favoured setting, and a lot of people hated it. The reason? Venser's entire storyline at the time was criticised for being 'too much like Jace'. That may have been forgetten in time as people retrospectively interpret his character, but it was a criticism that was made.
Then we got Innistrad, which was a reprieve from Jace. Momentarily...
Because then we returned to Ravnica, and low and behold, Jace was front and center. What irked so many is that he then became a living MacGuffin. He also (as some view it) stole the literal identity of Ravnica into his own character as a shallow attempt to make people like him. It backfired. More people ended up hating him for being a living macguffin that damaged the identity of their favourite plane.
Theros then gave us a reprieve from Jace, but not from Gideon who was a very polarising character at the time, with some for and some against. Notably most of those against disliked his (then) similarities to Jace in the way his story was handled, which early on telegraphed that the Gatewatch would become a thing.
Then Tarkir happened. Most people forgot the story of this because it handled time travel badly, did major retcon work to Bolas and Ugin (that angered just about everyone), and it's main protagonist was criticised as a lazy pastiche of elements of Jace and Gideon (who were both still disliked by the general audience). It also introduced the wedge plane everyone wanted... to immediately destroy that identity thanks to the Jace pastiche.
During that time however we had side stories happening that was supposed to follow Ral. Unfortunately this quickly devolved into Jace + Jace, as he got shoehorned in there (with Gideon) in the worst plot setup for a set I've seen in a while, which wheeled into Eldrazikar. This is when the pattern really begins to set in: another fan favourite plane (not mine, I hate it), that involved Jace (or a pastiche of him), and involved a fan favourite setting being irrevocably destroyed or it's identity forever changing. This only fanned animosity for Jace, especially with the perceived ease he defeated the Eldrazi. Oh wait, what happens next...
We go back to another fan favourite plane (also not mine, I hate it) and low and behold, Jace is there. Now previously, it's been one block on (Jace) and one block off (pastiche), but now they're just forcing him down the audience's throats. And low and behold, the core of the story is the plane's identity being irrevocably changed and Jace having a hand in it and/or being the one to solve the problem. Nevermind that you had Tamiyo there, the fact she was an afterthought as compared to Jace's necromantic booty obsession and the criminally overlooked Nahiri/Sorin story, in the end it all came down to 'Jace Kaioken x10'.
From there we went to Kaladesh, and while supposed to be an artifact set involving rebellion, drama, social politics and everyone's (modern) favourite artifact baddie Tezzeret, even with a big Ajani plot point, most people criticised it for Jace. Because despite the fact he could of had no screentime, they had to shoehorn him in anyway. Oh and look, the pattern continues of plane everyone enjoys... with it's identity completely destroyed. Hmmm.
Then we go to Amonkhet, another plane everyone loves the world of (despite it being a fascist military meritocracy). Now this one we 'knew' was going to be destroyed, so any audience member surprised here when it's completely torn asunder is just naive. In fact, it's main approval was watching the Gatewatch get bodied by Bolas, because people were generally sick of the Gatewatch at this point (yet notably only when it involved Jace). Gideon got substantial character development in this set that truly distinguished him from Jace and gained his own audience.
From there we got Ixalan, which makes four Jace sets, yayyy. It also brought people pirates, so if you're a fan of those, great! If you're not? Sucks to be you! Sadly those pirates got Jace'd, which ruined the pirates for a considerable portion of their fans. We also got the return of Azor, a huge piece of fan service... that Jace exiled into plot irrelevance reminding everyone of how Jace disregards the general plot (being the GuffinPact). Notably Ixalan's biggest criticism is Jace and his superficial character-centric plot, while it's most applauded notion are the Pirates, Dinosaurs and White Vampires.
From there we went to Dominaria, return to a plane people adore and with no Jace. And people went wild. They loved seeing the return of characters that were similar but distinct to the Gatewatch members. It capitalised on Gideon's improved character, continued Lilith's story, and didn't involve Jace... until it did, in the most criticised part of Dominaria, which is the Jace cameo. Which also added precisely nothing to the story as it was redundant in respect of the future Project Lightning Bug. Fortunately as Jace didn't stick around, Dominaria didn't have it's audience identity completely destroyed.
Oh, nevermind, they rammed out a Spellbook thing based on Jace. Which received criticism because it could of been any other PW, but no, they had to ram Jace in, because you can't be allowed to forget that Jace is plot-armor superion of audience upset.
Then we're back to Ravnica, and thank goth that there has been no Jace. We got to focus on the Guilds, and how things have changed precisely because Jace isn't in the one place he should be, and it's causing the systematic destruction of another fan favourite plane...
And then we will have War of the Spark, where it's heavily suspected that instead of Ajani, who was originally set up to combat Bolas, we're going to quick swerve to Jace being the hero. But not after the entire identity and culture that the audience loves about Ravnica is completely destroyed. In a set that should be about a planeswalker war, instead it's increasingly likely to be all about a war over Jace's guildpact infused spark. So he can go on to be Guildpact of the Multiverse, because we needed an Adam Warlock Above All in MTG, that can be used to simply reset problems in the multiverse so nobody has to write convincing endings. And sure, it has parallels to Azor's naive rigidity and Liliana's selfish pursuit of her own goals despite the consequences, but it's also shallow.
And yes, while there is going to be a new weatherlight, because Magic repeats it's story beats over and over with different gloss in the hope you don't notice, it's not unpredictable and isn't particularly fun for the audience, especially when a pattern has existed of destroying the fan favourite planes for a cheap emotional reaction now in trade for long term audience respect, investment and story potential.
Case in point: Marvel made the same mistakes and had to run a series called Time Runs Out, and then Secret Wars 2015, so they could restore all their fan favourites (or adaptions of them) after angering many of their audience members. Similarly they did this with House of M as well in regards to their various mutant-X teams.
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
What are you talking about out of the lorwyn 5 Jace was the most popular.
How so? They been showing that Jace had been following Chandra which all part of a plot of Bolas during before hand.
I have never heard of this, I think most people were upset that he was a drug addict and being BFF with Karn when they barley talked to each other in Time Spiral. And using how some people interpret a character is a reach to say Jace was involved in the story.
Thats a pretty fair case.
We talking about Jace bud and Gideon didn't appear at in Theros outside one flavor text card as Kytheon. And really after this your points get messy.
This is such a reach, no one was comparing Sarkhan to Jace or Gideon and this so wildly off topic. Also it was this last core set that had had retcons to Bolas and Ugin, not the Khans of Tarkir story. I think you need to go back and look through the storyline again because a lot of your storyline know seems shakey to what happened.
This again is such a reach, claiming other characters are pastiche of Jace is your interpret ( I have never heard a person say this) and that must mean he been in every storyline. Also
Source for this? No where did I read project lighting bug was meant to just be a Ral story.
The gatewatch lost though. Emrakul wanted to be sealed. And while a Foucsed on Jace as you mention we had Liliana, SOrin and Nahiri as major characters as well Tamiyo getting some love. And while changed around, Innistrad is still a horror plane and felt very much the same in the recent Sanderson novel set there.
Kaladesh identity wasn't changed, its still optimistic aether-punk world. And Jace literally did *one* thing of note the whole time and that was do illusions to help the rebels. Kaladesh was Chandra's story mostly with Nissa and Liliana playing support.
Literally most Jace haters I know enjoyed Ixalan and most people agree the Jace and Vraska part of Ixalan was the best parts.
Yeah people where upset because they loved how Alison Luhrs soft rebooted him in Ixalan and got the impression that growth was lost since Martha Wells focused more on Jace not trust Liliana during the scene. Ixalan and Kaladesh before didn't lose their identity or destroyed.
Yes and we support to be getting more of those feature other planeswalkers. Jace got first because, he's the most popular. We can except Chandra, Liliana and Ajani in that order in next few years. Any who agin this dosnt relate to the topic of Jace being the lead character in all the storylines.
:roll eyes: or maybe wait and see what happens in the story.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
I expected more focus on Sorin vs Nahiri and Teferi, Karn and Jhoira but no we had to focus on Jace/Lili Drama and then Gideon/Lili Drama.
I am honestly going to level with you guys here I think the problem with Dominaria is Wells empathized more with the ladies then the dudes in particular she cared more about Lili and Jhoira then she did Jace and Teferi. Yeah Yeah sure she talked a good game about loving Teferi beforehand but I didn't see any of that in the writing.
So to make Lili look good Jace had to switch to being irrational and angry at Lili for no reason. Jace came across as a jealous ex with no rational thought. I mean sheesh its not like Bolas was attacking at that exact moment, Jace easily had time to help take out the Demon if the wanted to and rationally should have. He is recruiting new allies and basically telling them his plane is more important cause of future threat then a present one? I mean sheesh they finished Belzenlok the same day.
Same reason Teferi is failure sad sack that hasn't really done anything to get his Spark back or Zhalfir for 60+ Years. Jhoira apparently had time to teach at Tolaria West and get Teferi his spark somehow no explanation for an indeterminate amount of time and rebuild the Weatherlight. Meanwhile Teferi just spent years mopping in the desert, forgetting most of his magical abilities, didn't think about Urza maybe having a device that could help (even if logically it makes no sense for Urza to hide this given Urza in no way predicted Teferi leaving and didn't have time to hid anything) and even then needed Jhoira to solve the puzzle and math for him (cause for some reason Teferi cannot solve the math and Urza knows Teferi wouldn't think about Spirits but doesn't also prep for Jhoira who left at the same time as Teferi). She wanted the Ladies to shine so the Lads paid the price. Even if they had to be out of character to do it. Trying to keep this short don't want re litigate my arguments from last time.
I am massive Jace hater and even I appreciated the changes made on Ixalan personality wise. Jace part was strong besides how Azor was dealt with but I suppose there is bigger fish on Ixalan since the cards mostly lied and Hautli side of the story was so bad.