Yeah, the Simic's goal is still the same, but they have changed their approach. Infact, their renouncement of cytoplasts and biografting in general was done specifically to use more natural methods. Interestingly concept art of the new Simic shows them in labcoat-like aesthetic, so who knows what they are like now.
Yeah, the Simic's goal is still the same, but they have changed their approach. Infact, their renouncement of cytoplasts and biografting in general was done specifically to use more natural methods. Interestingly concept art of the new Simic shows them in labcoat-like aesthetic, so who knows what they are like now.
I think they are becoming more and more like actual biologists, which I find great (since I am one). Developing medicine, preserving nature, but also investigating how to improve it via magic (or in our case genetic engineering) and finding out more about life through science. Yes, they still have a somewhat amoral streak, but they are leagues and beyond better than Momir Vigs Simic in that regard.
What is facepalm-worthy about this discussion? Even in the first Ravnica trilogy these problems were kind of the focus of the entire Golgari storyline, it's the stated motivation of Vraska and therefore very much integral to the story.
The Simic, at least the new Simic, are hypocrites. The old Simic were less about nature and more about promoting biological life, and biological life doesn't need to be natural. They embraced the artificiality of their work, even operating as a corporation with branding. It is their rejection of nature which set them apart from the other green guilds. The new Simic, though, play up the nature side of green, and pretend to give nature a fighting chance while using gene manipulation and other artificial means. They are actually hypocritical.
No, the Simic actually aren't hypocrites if you follow this train of thought. They do preserve actual nature in contrast to the old Simic Combine (see their close partnership in this matter with the Selesnyans) and they have sworn to only use magical means (namely the Hybridization of Krasi) in their scientific advances. They never stated that they would shun anything unnatural from here on out, they just embraced more holistic ideals and actually started to do what they were supposed to do, finding ways so that nature can preserver in Ravnica.
A krasis isn't actual nature. The Vigean Simic pretty much abandoned the pretense of preserving nature and sold themselves as improving it. The current version of the Simic is more noble and likely better for the plane than the Vigeans, that's not in question, but the Vigeans did a better job about being clear about their philosophy. From the Wiki: Momir Vig, the Simic guildmaster, was dissatisfied with this original purpose (preserving life on Ravnica) and formed a new purpose: to improve upon life-forms of Ravnica. This eliminated any hypocrisy on their part, as although what they were doing was monstrous, they were upfront about it, not pretending to preserve nature but admitting that their goal was to "improve" life artificially. The New Simic rejected this, and returned to the old ways, and that's what makes them hypocritical, because while the old ways may be more holistic and they adhere to the goal of preserving nature, their methods still revolve around artificially changing nature to "improve" it. They don't use magical technology like the Vigeans, using straight up magic instead, but the end result is the same, forcefully mutating life to change it rather than preserve it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing mind you, its just contrary to their stated purpose and thus hypocritical. If their stated purpose was to artificially adapt nature to survival in a plane wide cityscape, then they wouldn't be hypocritical. Its a little like if dog breeders swore not to use genetic engineering to come up with new breeds, relying on the old fashioned way. Yes, its not as technologically advanced and controlled a method, but the act of creating dog breeds is itself unnatural, an artificial act against nature (and let me be clear, this carries no moral weight for me, nature, and acts against it, are neither inherently good or bad).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Preserve: verb (used with object), pre·served, pre·serv·ing.
to keep alive or in existence; make lasting: to preserve our liberties as free citizens.
to keep safe from harm or injury; protect or spare.
to keep up; maintain:
And related to...
Conserve: verb (used with object), con·served, con·serv·ing.
to prevent injury, decay, waste, or loss of: Conserve your strength for the race.
to use or manage (natural resources) wisely; preserve; save: Conserve the woodlands.
Physics , Chemistry . to hold (a property) constant during an interaction or process: the interaction conserved linear momentum.
I bring this up because neither of those words means to lack change, adaptation or evolution, wether artificial or natural.
As long as they're preventing the extinction of native Ravnican life, wether it remains in it's original form is largely irrelevant unless it was the specific goal given or stated, but then that would be Blue's anathema...
the state or condition of stagnating, or having stopped, as by ceasing to run or flow: Meteorologists forecast ozone and air stagnation.
a foulness or staleness, as one emanating from a standing pool of water.
a failure to develop, progress, or advance: periods of economic stagnation followed by bursts of growth.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but depending on the kind of stagnation, we'd be talking either more the Golari (rot, death), or Selsenya (uniformity, torpidity), which better represent those aspects of Green.
That's all well and good but nature is defined as not human or of human creation. In fantasy settings, expand human to sapient. The kind of drastic alterations the Simic make don't preserve nature, because by definition nothing they create is natural. Just like a Chihuahua is not natural, though canines more generally are.
I'd take a different view if the Simic were about preserving LIFE rather than nature, as it's easily argued that their actions can preserve life, both through their medical advances and by creating new life that can survive in Ravnica, but nature has nothing to do with it.
And remaining natural doesn't mean remaining in it's original form and stagnating. Life can evolve naturally, it does all the time, it probably did on Ravnica, and we can probably see plenty of red, white and black creatures that the Simic haven't touched that have adapted naturally to the city scape. No, remaining natural means that any of this happens without directed intervention from a sapient source. Once that happens, there's a creator, and the result is artificial. Once a sapient starts to force evolution in a certain direction, it ceases to be natural. If somehow a Ravncan crab evolved to be half frog, that would be natural (yes, magic would be involved, but the ambient magic of the plane or inherintly magical nature of the creature, a natural magic free from the direction of an intelligent actor). If some Simic merfolk sees a crab and a frog and says "Great Scott, I should make these **** and use magic to make mutant crab frog babies for science!" That isn't natural. If the Simic merfolk injects the frog with radioactive crab blood to make a crab frog, that isn't natural. They might release their creations into the wild, and this may all be for the best, and it's certainly *****in, but it's not natural, and does not preserve nature.
I'll retract everything if it turns out the Simic don't give a ***** about nature and are only interested in preserving life, because artificial life fits that just fine.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
What is facepalm-worthy about this discussion? Even in the first Ravnica trilogy these problems were kind of the focus of the entire Golgari storyline, it's the stated motivation of Vraska and therefore very much integral to the story.
The Simic, at least the new Simic, are hypocrites. The old Simic were less about nature and more about promoting biological life, and biological life doesn't need to be natural. They embraced the artificiality of their work, even operating as a corporation with branding. It is their rejection of nature which set them apart from the other green guilds. The new Simic, though, play up the nature side of green, and pretend to give nature a fighting chance while using gene manipulation and other artificial means. They are actually hypocritical.
No, the Simic actually aren't hypocrites if you follow this train of thought. They do preserve actual nature in contrast to the old Simic Combine (see their close partnership in this matter with the Selesnyans) and they have sworn to only use magical means (namely the Hybridization of Krasi) in their scientific advances. They never stated that they would shun anything unnatural from here on out, they just embraced more holistic ideals and actually started to do what they were supposed to do, finding ways so that nature can preserver in Ravnica.
A krasis isn't actual nature. The Vigean Simic pretty much abandoned the pretense of preserving nature and sold themselves as improving it. The current version of the Simic is more noble and likely better for the plane than the Vigeans, that's not in question, but the Vigeans did a better job about being clear about their philosophy. From the Wiki: Momir Vig, the Simic guildmaster, was dissatisfied with this original purpose (preserving life on Ravnica) and formed a new purpose: to improve upon life-forms of Ravnica. This eliminated any hypocrisy on their part, as although what they were doing was monstrous, they were upfront about it, not pretending to preserve nature but admitting that their goal was to "improve" life artificially. The New Simic rejected this, and returned to the old ways, and that's what makes them hypocritical, because while the old ways may be more holistic and they adhere to the goal of preserving nature, their methods still revolve around artificially changing nature to "improve" it. They don't use magical technology like the Vigeans, using straight up magic instead, but the end result is the same, forcefully mutating life to change it rather than preserve it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing mind you, its just contrary to their stated purpose and thus hypocritical. If their stated purpose was to artificially adapt nature to survival in a plane wide cityscape, then they wouldn't be hypocritical. Its a little like if dog breeders swore not to use genetic engineering to come up with new breeds, relying on the old fashioned way. Yes, its not as technologically advanced and controlled a method, but the act of creating dog breeds is itself unnatural, an artificial act against nature (and let me be clear, this carries no moral weight for me, nature, and acts against it, are neither inherently good or bad).
Doesn't that wiki quote itself directly state that their goal was to preserve life, not nature in all its forms? I can't find a quote which states that their ONLY goal was preserving nature or that they swore to only use "natural methods". It's certainly one of their goals (which is why the new Simic work together with the other green guilds on the Wilds Initiative to restore and preserve nature at least in some parts of Ravnica) but not the only one and not excluding improving on nature via Krasi for example or helping society with their biological advances (so their goal is actually preserving nature as well as understanding and improving life in general). I think you are overestimating how much green plays a role in the Simic mindset, they are definitely not bound by its "only untouched nature is good"-aspects. I just don't see the strong hypocrisy you see. It's simply an organisation with multiple goals. It's as if you would tell me that I was a hypocrite because I use genetic engineering to study evolution while at the same time being an environmentalist. These two things are just not mutually exclusive.
The current Ravnica year is is given as 10,076, placing the events of the original Ravnica block 76 years in the past. Ravnican years are 365 days long, with months being a scrambled version of the Gregorian calendar
Jace became Living Guildpact in 10,075
The book sort of implies that the Guildpact magic does not function when Jace is off-plane, but it's still not clear
Ravnican currency is called zibs and zinos, with 100 zibs making up 1 zino. 10 zibs will buy you a cup of coffee. The Azorius, Boros (???), and Orzhov all mint coins
The 10 districts are what originally made up Ravnica City. Other districts are different cities that eventually sprawled into the great city
The number of other districts is stated as "unknown", as are the borders of Ravnica (if there are any)
There is no large-scale agriculture. Small gardens and rot farms manage to provide all food
About half of Ravnica's population is guildless, and the proportion gets higher the farther you get away from the city's center and into "rural" areas. There are also discrepancies in race: nearly all elves belong to one of the guilds, but nearly all goblins are guildless
There is a 10-foot-tall statue of Agrus Kos in Precinct Two. It's become a meeting place for veterans, the mob, and Dimir spies
There is a Prism University that teaches magic and is--at least nominally--unaffiliated with any guild
Mizzium has weird properties: it has an extremely high melting point, but is also often found in a liquid form at room temperature
The Azorius have "precognitive mages", which are basically exactly Minority Report
Lavinia is freaked out by Jace's disappearance, but refuses to take on his duties as she doesn't believe that is lawful
For funsies, Isperia is listed as Lawful Neutral, Aurelia as Lawful Good, Lazav as Neutral Evil, Jarad as Neutral Evil, Borborygmos as Chaotic Neutral, Niv-Mizzet as Chaotic Neutral, the Obzedat as Lawful Evil, Rakdos as Chaotic Evil, Trostani as Neutral Good, and Zegana as Lawful Neutral
The Rakdos appear to have a satirical puppet show about Jace, so that's awesome
There's a good amount of new art, including what appears to be a 3-story-tall Selesnyan elemental fighting a similarly-sized Simic experiment like kaiju
The current Ravnica year is is given as 10,076, placing the events of the original Ravnica block 76 years in the past. Ravnican years are 365 days long, with months being a scrambled version of the Gregorian calendar
Jace became Living Guildpact in 10,075
The book sort of implies that the Guildpact magic does not function when Jace is off-plane, but it's still not clear
Ravnican currency is called zibs and zinos, with 100 zibs making up 1 zino. 10 zibs will buy you a cup of coffee. The Azorius, Boros (???), and Orzhov all mint coins
The 10 districts are what originally made up Ravnica City. Other districts are different cities that eventually sprawled into the great city
The number of other districts is stated as "unknown", as are the borders of Ravnica (if there are any)
There is no large-scale agriculture. Small gardens and rot farms manage to provide all food
About half of Ravnica's population is guildless, and the proportion gets higher the farther you get away from the city's center and into "rural" areas. There are also discrepancies in race: nearly all elves belong to one of the guilds, but nearly all goblins are guildless
There is a 10-foot-tall statue of Agrus Kos in Precinct Two. It's become a meeting place for veterans, the mob, and Dimir spies
There is a Prism University that teaches magic and is--at least nominally--unaffiliated with any guild
Mizzium has weird properties: it has an extremely high melting point, but is also often found in a liquid form at room temperature
The Azorius have "precognitive mages", which are basically exactly Minority Report
Lavinia is freaked out by Jace's disappearance, but refuses to take on his duties as she doesn't believe that is lawful
For funsies, Isperia is listed as Lawful Neutral, Aurelia as Lawful Good, Lazav as Neutral Evil, Jarad as Neutral Evil, Borborygmos as Chaotic Neutral, Niv-Mizzet as Chaotic Neutral, the Obzedat as Lawful Evil, Rakdos as Chaotic Evil, Trostani as Neutral Good, and Zegana as Lawful Neutral
The Rakdos appear to have a satirical puppet show about Jace, so that's awesome
There's a good amount of new art, including what appears to be a 3-story-tall Selesnyan elemental fighting a similarly-sized Simic experiment like kaiju
Well, the Boros do own quite a few foundries, so I can see them minting coins as one of their side duties (perhaps that's how they get the economic power to back their army?). Interesting that certain races are more inclined to be part of a guild than the others. I'd guess from what we've seen so far that Angels, Merfolk, Kraul and Gorgons for example tend to be guild-members, while Sphinxes, Viashino, Demons and Minotaurs are more often independent. Humans (as always) are the middle ground.
Poor Lavinia. It's hard to be lawful in such a situation. I wouldn't even put the blame on Jace to be honest, the problem (just like with the original guildpact) is that Azor's systems are often terribly flawed in the long run (Jace being a planeswalker just made the problems more obvious in a shorter amount of time). Looking forward to that Guildmasters Guide!
What is facepalm-worthy about this discussion? Even in the first Ravnica trilogy these problems were kind of the focus of the entire Golgari storyline, it's the stated motivation of Vraska and therefore very much integral to the story.
The Simic, at least the new Simic, are hypocrites. The old Simic were less about nature and more about promoting biological life, and biological life doesn't need to be natural. They embraced the artificiality of their work, even operating as a corporation with branding. It is their rejection of nature which set them apart from the other green guilds. The new Simic, though, play up the nature side of green, and pretend to give nature a fighting chance while using gene manipulation and other artificial means. They are actually hypocritical.
No, the Simic actually aren't hypocrites if you follow this train of thought. They do preserve actual nature in contrast to the old Simic Combine (see their close partnership in this matter with the Selesnyans) and they have sworn to only use magical means (namely the Hybridization of Krasi) in their scientific advances. They never stated that they would shun anything unnatural from here on out, they just embraced more holistic ideals and actually started to do what they were supposed to do, finding ways so that nature can preserver in Ravnica.
A krasis isn't actual nature. The Vigean Simic pretty much abandoned the pretense of preserving nature and sold themselves as improving it. The current version of the Simic is more noble and likely better for the plane than the Vigeans, that's not in question, but the Vigeans did a better job about being clear about their philosophy. From the Wiki: Momir Vig, the Simic guildmaster, was dissatisfied with this original purpose (preserving life on Ravnica) and formed a new purpose: to improve upon life-forms of Ravnica. This eliminated any hypocrisy on their part, as although what they were doing was monstrous, they were upfront about it, not pretending to preserve nature but admitting that their goal was to "improve" life artificially. The New Simic rejected this, and returned to the old ways, and that's what makes them hypocritical, because while the old ways may be more holistic and they adhere to the goal of preserving nature, their methods still revolve around artificially changing nature to "improve" it. They don't use magical technology like the Vigeans, using straight up magic instead, but the end result is the same, forcefully mutating life to change it rather than preserve it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing mind you, its just contrary to their stated purpose and thus hypocritical. If their stated purpose was to artificially adapt nature to survival in a plane wide cityscape, then they wouldn't be hypocritical. Its a little like if dog breeders swore not to use genetic engineering to come up with new breeds, relying on the old fashioned way. Yes, its not as technologically advanced and controlled a method, but the act of creating dog breeds is itself unnatural, an artificial act against nature (and let me be clear, this carries no moral weight for me, nature, and acts against it, are neither inherently good or bad).
Doesn't that wiki quote itself directly state that their goal was to preserve life, not nature in all its forms? I can't find a quote which states that their ONLY goal was preserving nature or that they swore to only use "natural methods". It's certainly one of their goals (which is why the new Simic work together with the other green guilds on the Wilds Initiative to restore and preserve nature at least in some parts of Ravnica) but not the only one and not excluding improving on nature via Krasi for example or helping society with their biological advances (so their goal is actually preserving nature as well as understanding and improving life in general). I think you are overestimating how much green plays a role in the Simic mindset, they are definitely not bound by its "only untouched nature is good"-aspects. I just don't see the strong hypocrisy you see. It's simply an organisation with multiple goals. It's as if you would tell me that I was a hypocrite because I use genetic engineering to study evolution while at the same time being an environmentalist. These two things are just not mutually exclusive.
Good point, I was misinterpreting it
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's all well and good but nature is defined as not human or of human creation. In fantasy settings, expand human to sapient. The kind of drastic alterations the Simic make don't preserve nature, because by definition nothing they create is natural. Just like a Chihuahua is not natural, though canines more generally are.
I'd take a different view if the Simic were about preserving LIFE rather than nature, as it's easily argued that their actions can preserve life, both through their medical advances and by creating new life that can survive in Ravnica, but nature has nothing to do with it.
But as stated, preserving something doesn't exclude artificiality, as you're talking about maintaining in a stasis. For instance, mutation (Vigean Simic) would be unnatural and would be warping from native Ravnican life. Artificially accelerated evolution would not be however, as you're just speeding up the time it takes for something to happen.
After all, the Simic's job is to help the natural lifeforms survive on their own terms in the Ravnican cityscape. That could be vaccines, medical aid, accelerated evolution, domestication, breeding (Panda's are a real word analogy).
And remaining natural doesn't mean remaining in it's original form and stagnating. Life can evolve naturally, it does all the time, it probably did on Ravnica, and we can probably see plenty of red, white and black creatures that the Simic haven't touched that have adapted naturally to the city scape. No, remaining natural means that any of this happens without directed intervention from a sapient source. Once that happens, there's a creator, and the result is artificial. Once a sapient starts to force evolution in a certain direction, it ceases to be natural. If somehow a Ravncan crab evolved to be half frog, that would be natural (yes, magic would be involved, but the ambient magic of the plane or inherintly magical nature of the creature, a natural magic free from the direction of an intelligent actor). If some Simic merfolk sees a crab and a frog and says "Great Scott, I should make these **** and use magic to make mutant crab frog babies for science!" That isn't natural. If the Simic merfolk injects the frog with radioactive crab blood to make a crab frog, that isn't natural. They might release their creations into the wild, and this may all be for the best, and it's certainly *****in, but it's not natural, and does not preserve nature.
It can only be 100% purely natural if sentient beings didn't exist at all. As influencing something doesn't require a specific direction or end goal, it can be done completely by accident. For instance, compare the Simic to New Phryexia: Original Simic would of loved NP's Glue and Green factions, as both of them alter beings very nature to pursue a specific end goal. Newer Simic (to my understanding) wouldn't do that, instead just accelerating the natural evolution of things, speeding them up alike being inside a time bubble.
I'll retract everything if it turns out the Simic don't give a ***** about nature and are only interested in preserving life, because artificial life fits that just fine.
But again, neither preserve or conserve mean to leave unaltered. From my perspective the Simic aren't hypocrites in their recent incarnation because they've not done anything hypocritical, as their actions literally do what they've said they intend to. And also from my perspective, I feel you argue from a very Seslenya point of view, conflating their two goals: Simic seek to protect natural life and assist it in surviving in the modern Ravnica, where as Selsenya wish to protect natural life and see it unaltered by modern Ravnica.
I just wish these guilds could discuss their philosophical differences as pleasantlyas we can... Nar I don't, there'd be no interesting magic sets without the conflict
I've reevaluated my stance on the new simic being hypocrites because Chris pointed out that their M.O. is in fact preserving life rather than nature. I still can't see how it can be argued that they are in any way preserving nature.
The following goes a bit off topic so spoiler shield:
This however "This mostly repeats what I just said, however it has a few logic holes I'm afraid. For instance, by your own terms, if the tree was planted: then it's unnatural evolution. If the ambient magic was created from an Izzet experiment years ago? Unnatural. Slug ingests some demonic blood from a Rakdos party gone right, and turns into giant demon-slug? Unnatural." is off base. There are no logic holes there. Planting a tree has nothing to do with what I said, as you aren't creating the tree. If you cultivated a new kind of tree, like a new variety of apple, that would be unnatural, but merely planting a tree that exists in nature is not. Meanwhile, the two examples you gave would indeed be unnatural. A creature changed by Rakdos or Izzet magic would in fact be unnatural. Those things would be akin to pollution.
Again, preservation and conservation don't mean unchanging, but for it to remain nature that change cannot be directed by sapient life. If sapient life don't direct the change, but directly cause it, then they have not preserved nature. Plenty of animals have adapted to life in cities, but that is not an example of the preservation of nature, but rather the destruction of the previous ecosystem and its replacement with a new, artificial ecosystem.
To go with a guild perspective, that new, artificial ecosystem would be fine. Its still life, even if its very detached from nature. The Simic would look at the abundance of pets, and rats, and pigeons etc in NYC, for instance, and see life being preserved, great success. The Selesnya, on the other hand, prefer gardens and parks. They'd look at central park and be happy with it. The Selesnya don't do a particularly great job of preserving nature either, though. What they preserve is a curated imitation of nature, with natural life protected but stagnant. What they preserve is a snapshot of nature. Only the Gruul actually understand what preserving nature really entails, which is indeed leaving large swaths of it wild and untamed, free from sapient touch. That's why the Selesnya and the Simic thrive and the Gruul have the worst lot on Ravnica: In a plane spanning city that values civilization, artificial life does very well, as does domesticated life and preserves, walled off and protected, but the needs of Ravnican civilization preclude the needs of actual, wild nature from being met. They simply will not allow enough space to be used for it, nor can they prevent the byproducts of society from polluting it. And Ravnicans, for their part, generally don't need it. They've replaced its beauty with the garden preserves of the Selesnya, and its adaptable vitality with the engineered life of the Simic, and even its regenerative qualities with the recycling of the Golgari. Nature on Ravnica is dead.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Agreed. Its at the very least a stretch. From the description of neutral evil "A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves." fits Jarad. He is absolutely willing to harm others to get what he wants, but he is not sadistic and doesn't do so unless its necessary. "A neutral evil character is typically selfish and has no qualms about turning on allies-of-the-moment, and usually makes allies primarily to further their own goals" does not fit him however. I suppose he could be an atypical neutral evil character, but its quite a stretch. In the books, he actually cared about people and was pretty loyal. If that changed after years of being a lich, it was never mentioned in any story or even blurb.
No, I'd say Jarad was closest to True Neutral. He had no particular attachment to either order or freedom, and while he had some evil tendencies those were balanced by a broader concern for society and truly caring about those close to him. His broader moral compass leaned good, having some ideas about right and wrong that would align with traditional notions of good (such as disapproving of his sister's plans and generally seeing the overthrow of the Guildpact and total war as overly harmful and wrong), but his methods and ruthlessness certainly leaned evil, they balanced each other out.
Private Mod Note
():
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Boros is the forger guild. Its far from being their main occupation, but its always been there.
Disappointed they went with the stereotypical alignments. Oh yes, Mr "Rapes and Kills Everything is "Chaotic Neutral and Miss "Create Abominations" is Lawful neutral.
Granted I find it funny WOTC tells us thats bad when we cannot even get Elf or other near human Walkers on a regular basis much less something more alien and monster like ala the Kraul so they buy it to.
"I can make you Guildmaster of the Golgari, Vraska."
Her breath caught in her chest.
She thought of Mazirek, of the kraul, of the rest of the Ochran assassins and the malignant Jarad who reigned with casual ruin over the most downtrodden of the downtrodden. She remembered her years of isolation, and the heinous cruelty of the Azorius, and how no group deserved to suffer as much as those who would subjugate her own.
Seems like is including the kraul in the people she wants to help.
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To repeat an earlier point: What was Vraska supposed to do? All she can do is allow them to be heard and integrate them into Golgari society by providing jobs and such, which we totally see in the story with Vraska holding a speech with Kraul invited and the Kraul guards at the entrance. Should she kick out all elves? Murder them? Tear the guild to the ground and make a new one? I really don't see what people were expecting.
Edit: What I find really offputting is how selectively characters are judged on this forum. Almost everything the neowalkers do is bad bad bad and hypocritical, while oldwalkers get away with everything and it was just "for the greater good n all". Or there's a throw-away line like "oh yeah we know Urza was bad, but let's go on to the next topic". Meanwhile neowalkers never hear the end of it. I thought we hit rock bottom when people started to defend Nicol Bolas, only because we heard a story from his (very likely dishonest) point of view, but here we have people accusing Vraska of being a hypocrite for not doing something fast enough that barely any of the oldwalkers would have done ever.
To be fair, from the story it seems as though they aren't too important. Mazireks story played them up, but it looks like Vraska got more use out of the old timey zombie folks. Her army was probably the old timey zombies (their name is escaping me right now), supported by kraul, Gorgons, and other assorted monsters vs the Devkarin under Jarad. We still don't know what that war looked like. As of the current moment, the Devkarin still have a lot of power in the guild and Mazirek seems like the only kraul with any real power. Most of them are still on the outskirts of Golgari society. It seems like rural rot farmers may be the average lifestyle for them. Granted, before Vraskas uprising they were portrayed as being completely locked out of power and completely pushed to the fringes of Golgari territory, treated almost like animals, so this is a step up for them. Still, at least right now, they aren't the most important race in the swarm, and are still quite marginalized. This could change once the revolution begins, as from the story it looks like the Devkarin are going to be the Golgari faction opposed to Bolas and Vraska, so the Kraul will likely see a big boost in the heirarchy, having lost their primary oppressors and stepping into the void they left.
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It's also the realistic outcome of any revolution that involves more than one group rising up against the ruling class. Historically, revolutions almost never result in total societal equality; they usually result in whichever group was the second most powerful becoming the most powerful, and whichever group was on the bottom staying on the bottom. The nobility might rise up against the monarchy, and the wealthy merchants might rise up against the nobility, but the peasants and the workers remain poor regardless. When the American revolutionaries won their independence from Britain, they didn't suddenly start treating Native Americans or African slaves or poor whites any better, they just replaced a distant British landed aristocracy with a local American landed aristocracy. When Mao Zedong overthrew the Chinese government, he didn't implement racial equality, he just had the Han majority take control from the ruling Manchu minority; under the new system, the traditionally-oppressed Uyghurs remained subject to extreme oppression, just like they had been under the previous one.
It doesn't matter what Vraska personally wanted either, just like it didn't matter that some of the Founding Fathers opposed slavery and favored a more egalitarian form of democracy. If most of the Elves still view the Gorgons as monsters despite being forced to treat them as equals, and most of the Gorgons still resent the Elves for oppressing them for so long, just keeping those two groups from killing each other is going to be difficult enough. And when there's a third race who they both view as being far beneath them, it's pretty obvious who's going to get thrown under the bus.
To repeat an earlier point: What was Vraska supposed to do? All she can do is allow them to be heard and integrate them into Golgari society by providing jobs and such, which we totally see in the story with Vraska holding a speech with Kraul invited and the Kraul guards at the entrance. Should she kick out all elves? Murder them? Tear the guild to the ground and make a new one? I really don't see what people were expecting.
Edit: What I find really offputting is how selectively characters are judged on this forum. Almost everything the neowalkers do is bad bad bad and hypocritical, while oldwalkers get away with everything and it was just "for the greater good n all". Or there's a throw-away line like "oh yeah we know Urza was bad, but let's go on to the next topic". Meanwhile neowalkers never hear the end of it. I thought we hit rock bottom when people started to defend Nicol Bolas, only because we heard a story from his (very likely dishonest) point of view, but here we have people accusing Vraska of being a hypocrite for not doing something fast enough that barely any of the oldwalkers would have done ever.
Please I always complain about Lili getting a free pass because she and Jace use to bone. Bolas didn't force her to sign a deal with Demons or slaughter her way across the multiverse as an Oldwalker and yet is Lili every going to pay for her crimes? Apparently not cause she is hot and use to date the male lead of the Neowalker Gatewatch Saga.
As for Vraska she has had what a few months its going to be hard for her to turn that around this quickly. Vraska might feel for the Kraul but she is not an Oldwaker where she has the power to enforce her will with no issues. She has to convince her powerbase presumably the Gorgons to care while fending off a large Elf contingent.
To repeat an earlier point: What was Vraska supposed to do? All she can do is allow them to be heard and integrate them into Golgari society by providing jobs and such, which we totally see in the story with Vraska holding a speech with Kraul invited and the Kraul guards at the entrance. Should she kick out all elves? Murder them? Tear the guild to the ground and make a new one? I really don't see what people were expecting.
Edit: What I find really offputting is how selectively characters are judged on this forum. Almost everything the neowalkers do is bad bad bad and hypocritical, while oldwalkers get away with everything and it was just "for the greater good n all". Or there's a throw-away line like "oh yeah we know Urza was bad, but let's go on to the next topic". Meanwhile neowalkers never hear the end of it. I thought we hit rock bottom when people started to defend Nicol Bolas, only because we heard a story from his (very likely dishonest) point of view, but here we have people accusing Vraska of being a hypocrite for not doing something fast enough that barely any of the oldwalkers would have done ever.
Well that is because the Gatewatch is everything wrong with magic story! It would totally be better if the Gatewatch had nothing to do with the plot. I mean Jarad getting thrown in the evil box is totally Jace's fault and not the shoddy writing to force some inane "The Kraul are soooo oppressed!" story line.
Since when is Dovin considered evil or villainous? Ral, Vraska, and Domri aren't evil or villainous, they've just been tricked into serving Bolas (in some cases unknowingly) for various reasons. I don't see why you'd assume it would be any different for Dovin, especially considering he was portrayed in a fairly heroic light during the Kaladesh storyline, despite being an antagonist.
He will be on Team Bolas for Ravnica Allegiance. I hope his card is less garbage this time but considering UW already has Teferi not sure what Dovin is really bringing to the table. Maybe he will be 3 cmc.
Since when is Dovin considered evil or villainous? Ral, Vraska, and Domri aren't evil or villainous, they've just been tricked into serving Bolas (in some cases unknowingly) for various reasons. I don't see why you'd assume it would be any different for Dovin, especially considering he was portrayed in a fairly heroic light during the Kaladesh storyline, despite being an antagonist.
Ral is an abusive, temperamental, psychotic narcissist and Vraska tends to vacillate depending on who's writing her.
Dovin is not capital E evil but he's meant to come across as unsympathetic and snooty. His final act in the Kaladesh storyline is him blowing up a ship to spite Chandra.
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I think they are becoming more and more like actual biologists, which I find great (since I am one). Developing medicine, preserving nature, but also investigating how to improve it via magic (or in our case genetic engineering) and finding out more about life through science. Yes, they still have a somewhat amoral streak, but they are leagues and beyond better than Momir Vigs Simic in that regard.
A krasis isn't actual nature. The Vigean Simic pretty much abandoned the pretense of preserving nature and sold themselves as improving it. The current version of the Simic is more noble and likely better for the plane than the Vigeans, that's not in question, but the Vigeans did a better job about being clear about their philosophy. From the Wiki: Momir Vig, the Simic guildmaster, was dissatisfied with this original purpose (preserving life on Ravnica) and formed a new purpose: to improve upon life-forms of Ravnica. This eliminated any hypocrisy on their part, as although what they were doing was monstrous, they were upfront about it, not pretending to preserve nature but admitting that their goal was to "improve" life artificially. The New Simic rejected this, and returned to the old ways, and that's what makes them hypocritical, because while the old ways may be more holistic and they adhere to the goal of preserving nature, their methods still revolve around artificially changing nature to "improve" it. They don't use magical technology like the Vigeans, using straight up magic instead, but the end result is the same, forcefully mutating life to change it rather than preserve it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing mind you, its just contrary to their stated purpose and thus hypocritical. If their stated purpose was to artificially adapt nature to survival in a plane wide cityscape, then they wouldn't be hypocritical. Its a little like if dog breeders swore not to use genetic engineering to come up with new breeds, relying on the old fashioned way. Yes, its not as technologically advanced and controlled a method, but the act of creating dog breeds is itself unnatural, an artificial act against nature (and let me be clear, this carries no moral weight for me, nature, and acts against it, are neither inherently good or bad).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's all well and good but nature is defined as not human or of human creation. In fantasy settings, expand human to sapient. The kind of drastic alterations the Simic make don't preserve nature, because by definition nothing they create is natural. Just like a Chihuahua is not natural, though canines more generally are.
I'd take a different view if the Simic were about preserving LIFE rather than nature, as it's easily argued that their actions can preserve life, both through their medical advances and by creating new life that can survive in Ravnica, but nature has nothing to do with it.
And remaining natural doesn't mean remaining in it's original form and stagnating. Life can evolve naturally, it does all the time, it probably did on Ravnica, and we can probably see plenty of red, white and black creatures that the Simic haven't touched that have adapted naturally to the city scape. No, remaining natural means that any of this happens without directed intervention from a sapient source. Once that happens, there's a creator, and the result is artificial. Once a sapient starts to force evolution in a certain direction, it ceases to be natural. If somehow a Ravncan crab evolved to be half frog, that would be natural (yes, magic would be involved, but the ambient magic of the plane or inherintly magical nature of the creature, a natural magic free from the direction of an intelligent actor). If some Simic merfolk sees a crab and a frog and says "Great Scott, I should make these **** and use magic to make mutant crab frog babies for science!" That isn't natural. If the Simic merfolk injects the frog with radioactive crab blood to make a crab frog, that isn't natural. They might release their creations into the wild, and this may all be for the best, and it's certainly *****in, but it's not natural, and does not preserve nature.
I'll retract everything if it turns out the Simic don't give a ***** about nature and are only interested in preserving life, because artificial life fits that just fine.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Doesn't that wiki quote itself directly state that their goal was to preserve life, not nature in all its forms? I can't find a quote which states that their ONLY goal was preserving nature or that they swore to only use "natural methods". It's certainly one of their goals (which is why the new Simic work together with the other green guilds on the Wilds Initiative to restore and preserve nature at least in some parts of Ravnica) but not the only one and not excluding improving on nature via Krasi for example or helping society with their biological advances (so their goal is actually preserving nature as well as understanding and improving life in general). I think you are overestimating how much green plays a role in the Simic mindset, they are definitely not bound by its "only untouched nature is good"-aspects. I just don't see the strong hypocrisy you see. It's simply an organisation with multiple goals. It's as if you would tell me that I was a hypocrite because I use genetic engineering to study evolution while at the same time being an environmentalist. These two things are just not mutually exclusive.
The hierarchy seems to be Gorgon > Elves >>>>>> Kraul or Elves > Gorgon >>>>>> Kraul
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9vm1uy/vorthos_lore_tidbits_from_guildmasters_guide_to/
Images he refers too:
https://imgur.com/gallery/mAM2jRV
https://imgur.com/gallery/R84BxMI
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
Well, the Boros do own quite a few foundries, so I can see them minting coins as one of their side duties (perhaps that's how they get the economic power to back their army?). Interesting that certain races are more inclined to be part of a guild than the others. I'd guess from what we've seen so far that Angels, Merfolk, Kraul and Gorgons for example tend to be guild-members, while Sphinxes, Viashino, Demons and Minotaurs are more often independent. Humans (as always) are the middle ground.
Poor Lavinia. It's hard to be lawful in such a situation. I wouldn't even put the blame on Jace to be honest, the problem (just like with the original guildpact) is that Azor's systems are often terribly flawed in the long run (Jace being a planeswalker just made the problems more obvious in a shorter amount of time). Looking forward to that Guildmasters Guide!
That is some rank BS.
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Good point, I was misinterpreting it
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I've reevaluated my stance on the new simic being hypocrites because Chris pointed out that their M.O. is in fact preserving life rather than nature. I still can't see how it can be argued that they are in any way preserving nature.
The following goes a bit off topic so spoiler shield:
Again, preservation and conservation don't mean unchanging, but for it to remain nature that change cannot be directed by sapient life. If sapient life don't direct the change, but directly cause it, then they have not preserved nature. Plenty of animals have adapted to life in cities, but that is not an example of the preservation of nature, but rather the destruction of the previous ecosystem and its replacement with a new, artificial ecosystem.
To go with a guild perspective, that new, artificial ecosystem would be fine. Its still life, even if its very detached from nature. The Simic would look at the abundance of pets, and rats, and pigeons etc in NYC, for instance, and see life being preserved, great success. The Selesnya, on the other hand, prefer gardens and parks. They'd look at central park and be happy with it. The Selesnya don't do a particularly great job of preserving nature either, though. What they preserve is a curated imitation of nature, with natural life protected but stagnant. What they preserve is a snapshot of nature. Only the Gruul actually understand what preserving nature really entails, which is indeed leaving large swaths of it wild and untamed, free from sapient touch. That's why the Selesnya and the Simic thrive and the Gruul have the worst lot on Ravnica: In a plane spanning city that values civilization, artificial life does very well, as does domesticated life and preserves, walled off and protected, but the needs of Ravnican civilization preclude the needs of actual, wild nature from being met. They simply will not allow enough space to be used for it, nor can they prevent the byproducts of society from polluting it. And Ravnicans, for their part, generally don't need it. They've replaced its beauty with the garden preserves of the Selesnya, and its adaptable vitality with the engineered life of the Simic, and even its regenerative qualities with the recycling of the Golgari. Nature on Ravnica is dead.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Agreed. Its at the very least a stretch. From the description of neutral evil "A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves." fits Jarad. He is absolutely willing to harm others to get what he wants, but he is not sadistic and doesn't do so unless its necessary. "A neutral evil character is typically selfish and has no qualms about turning on allies-of-the-moment, and usually makes allies primarily to further their own goals" does not fit him however. I suppose he could be an atypical neutral evil character, but its quite a stretch. In the books, he actually cared about people and was pretty loyal. If that changed after years of being a lich, it was never mentioned in any story or even blurb.
No, I'd say Jarad was closest to True Neutral. He had no particular attachment to either order or freedom, and while he had some evil tendencies those were balanced by a broader concern for society and truly caring about those close to him. His broader moral compass leaned good, having some ideas about right and wrong that would align with traditional notions of good (such as disapproving of his sister's plans and generally seeing the overthrow of the Guildpact and total war as overly harmful and wrong), but his methods and ruthlessness certainly leaned evil, they balanced each other out.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Boros is the forger guild. Its far from being their main occupation, but its always been there.
Disappointed they went with the stereotypical alignments. Oh yes, Mr "Rapes and Kills Everything is "Chaotic Neutral and Miss "Create Abominations" is Lawful neutral.
Here's the real alignment:
Isperia: Prep
Aurelia: Prep
Lazav: Goff
Borborygmos: Punx
Niv-Mizzet: Nred
Obzedat: Poser
Rakdos: Goff Punx
Trostani: Prep Poser
Zegana: Prep Nred
Yes, that's basically the impression that I got too.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/talented-captain-vraska-2017-09-20
Seems like is including the kraul in the people she wants to help.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Edit: What I find really offputting is how selectively characters are judged on this forum. Almost everything the neowalkers do is bad bad bad and hypocritical, while oldwalkers get away with everything and it was just "for the greater good n all". Or there's a throw-away line like "oh yeah we know Urza was bad, but let's go on to the next topic". Meanwhile neowalkers never hear the end of it. I thought we hit rock bottom when people started to defend Nicol Bolas, only because we heard a story from his (very likely dishonest) point of view, but here we have people accusing Vraska of being a hypocrite for not doing something fast enough that barely any of the oldwalkers would have done ever.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It doesn't matter what Vraska personally wanted either, just like it didn't matter that some of the Founding Fathers opposed slavery and favored a more egalitarian form of democracy. If most of the Elves still view the Gorgons as monsters despite being forced to treat them as equals, and most of the Gorgons still resent the Elves for oppressing them for so long, just keeping those two groups from killing each other is going to be difficult enough. And when there's a third race who they both view as being far beneath them, it's pretty obvious who's going to get thrown under the bus.
Please I always complain about Lili getting a free pass because she and Jace use to bone. Bolas didn't force her to sign a deal with Demons or slaughter her way across the multiverse as an Oldwalker and yet is Lili every going to pay for her crimes? Apparently not cause she is hot and use to date the male lead of the Neowalker Gatewatch Saga.
As for Vraska she has had what a few months its going to be hard for her to turn that around this quickly. Vraska might feel for the Kraul but she is not an Oldwaker where she has the power to enforce her will with no issues. She has to convince her powerbase presumably the Gorgons to care while fending off a large Elf contingent.
Well that is because the Gatewatch is everything wrong with magic story! It would totally be better if the Gatewatch had nothing to do with the plot. I mean Jarad getting thrown in the evil box is totally Jace's fault and not the shoddy writing to force some inane "The Kraul are soooo oppressed!" story line.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
But as I said I buy oppression stories more if WOTC allowed nonhumans to be Walkers more often.
Ral is an abusive, temperamental, psychotic narcissist and Vraska tends to vacillate depending on who's writing her.
Dovin is not capital E evil but he's meant to come across as unsympathetic and snooty. His final act in the Kaladesh storyline is him blowing up a ship to spite Chandra.