Except Kaya on the cover of the book seems to be part of those AGAINST Bolas. So unless she switches sides I dont see her being the Bolas aligned Planeswalker for Orzhov.
I dont think Orzhov will be on the Bolas side at all actually, the Godless Shrine Pic doesnt show any influence, unlike the Azorious Hallowed Fountain
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Except Kaya on the cover of the book seems to be part of those AGAINST Bolas. So unless she switches sides I dont see her being the Bolas aligned Planeswalker for Orzhov.
I dont think Orzhov will be on the Bolas side at all actually, the Godless Shrine Pic doesnt show any influence, unlike the Azorious Hallowed Fountain
I think Teysa works for Bolas and pays Kaya to do the dirty work. So she does that unknowingly, but I am curious: how can you say she is AGAINST Bolas based on her pose on the cover? Also, where is the illustration for the new Godless Shrine?
By the way, worth it to point the mage with that strange geometrical hex...
I'm pretty sure MOST PWs are going to turn on Bolas after everything comes out.
Ral Zarek clearly isn't aware of everything going on.
Vraska has worked purely from quid pro quo.
The only two PWs that we know of that work for Bolas that are (currently) inextricably bound to him are Tezzeret and Liliana.
From what we can tell, at least part of Bolas's plan is to trap PWs on Ravnica. PWs will tend to react... negatively to that idea. And so turn on him. It all depends on Bolas's leverage. And if we are to judge from Ral Zarek and Vraska, Bolas's leverage is less than complete for his pawns.
Another possibility is that Orzhov is NOT taken over by Kaya, but Kaya is simply there to kill the Obzedat, and gets stranded there once the Immortal Sun is hooked up. Doubtful, but possible.
While Dovin Baan seems to be a longshot for Azorius, I cannot conceive of any rational way that they could get Tezzeret to take over the Azorius Senate. It simply isn't him.
The AW for Godless Shrine that got "leaked" early has some Bolas horns-like elements. My tip for the Bolas-aligned guilds in RNA is Azorius (pretty much confirmed anyway), Orzhov and Gruul. Yeah, Orzhov may benefit from the system and Gruul may like freedom, but Bolas doesn't have to be dumbly upfront about his plans to them. Ral apparently doesn't directly know that he's working for Bolas or what Bolas's ultimate goals are. The Gruul would be easy to lure with the promise of freedom from the oppressive guild system and the Orzhov could be made to believe they have the chance to be even more in charge than they already are.
I don't see why Simic would be Bolas-aligned, at least from a storytelling perspective. They're far too new (in their Zegana-led form) and their updated goals (+ mindset) don't seem to be extreme or suited for oppression/destruction in any way.
Yeah now that I look at itagain, the Godless Shrine pic may have some hints.
The symbol is blacked/broken? out instead of stained glass. Thee arches are kinds Bolased as well. Still dont think Kaya is "on Bolas side" just maybe paid to take over then will turn in the third set
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I think Azorius, Orzhov, Simic, Izzet, and Golgari, would join Bolas. The common theme amongst them is that they are all aiming at creating Bola-style tyrannical structure; oppression, more oppression, experiments, more experiment, then recycle to do it all over again, although in this set up Bolas would end up with three blues.
Freedom-seeking guilds like Rakdos and Gruul would not appreciate Bolas. Boros would be wonderful pawns since they usually work with Azorius on executing laws (which is odd that Tajic would deny other guilds in his Guildgate quote). Dimir in their selfish sense would deny Bolas, or subjugate him from within. Selesnya like Boros could be turned into pawns with its cult-like unity (few people acknowledge that Selesnya is very much like a cult in its absolute unity).
I think that this is an accurate expectation. I am glad that there are more people sharing my view that Gruul and Rakdos are too much freedom-loving (and anarchist) to actually join forces with Bolas. The Gruul were said to be once one of the strongest guilds and I would like them to play a role in saving Ravnica.
I am quite surprised by Boros. I really expected that Aurelia, with her zealot mindset, will be very easy to manipulate to serve Bolas. And I am pleasantly surprised by Dimir being the "good guys".
Azorius is clear. Orzhov makes sense, but I really do not see Kaya working for Bolas. I see her contract killing the Obzedat for someone in Bolas's paycheck (Teysa?). Lilina would then take over and became the fourth Bolas-loyalist walker.
Simic would make sense. Vigean Simic were downright cold bastards, and even Zegana's Simic were cold and calculating, seeking perfection. The only problem is that there is no Bolas-loyal walker to take control of them. Heck, there is exactly ONE UG walker in Magic now (not counting Nissa, obviously).
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One thing to keep in mind is that a "Bolas aligned" or "Bolas controlled" guild need not be AWARE that they're one of his puppets.
Gruul and/or Rakdos could easily be manipulated into working towards Bolas' plans simply by having his 'Walker exploit their anger and resentment of the system/anarchist mindset.
Gruul could easily be used by Bolas without exactly being "on his side."
One thing to keep in mind is that a "Bolas aligned" or "Bolas controlled" guild need not be AWARE that they're one of his puppets.
Gruul and/or Rakdos could easily be manipulated into working towards Bolas' plans simply by having his 'Walker exploit their anger and resentment of the system/anarchist mindset.
Gruul could easily be used by Bolas without exactly being "on his side."
Exactly. Like, Bolas has no reason to be up front. If Dovin Baan is on his side, I doubt it's because Dovin is on board with whatever Bolas wants, Dovin isn't a sadist. Rav certainly seems to have no idea what all is going on, if there is someone he's using for Gruul they may be in a similar position, or the person is lying to the Gruul.
Honestly no one is really on Bolas' side, just some people he's got a firmer hold on but everyone would betray him the second they could.
The fact is, from the flavour text on that red card, Ral does not even think he is working for Bolas.
It says: "After the disappearance of Niv-Mizzet,
Ral was in command of the guild.
He had dreamt of this day, but it
felt like he was a pawn in someone else's game."
So he does not even fathom he is working for Bolas. He is probably working on something Bolas needs for his plan.
In the guilds under his control (direct or indirect control) Vraska is probably the only one to know about Bolas (and maybe Dovin Baan if he is the new governor of the Senate).
It'll just gonna be a sudden revelation and they'll all grasp the truth too late to save themselves from Bolas.
And I wouldn't dismiss the malice of Dovin so easily. He was a mean of oppression on Kaladesh. He could be a good ambassador for Nicol Bolas if their goal met, or if he was brainwashed.
I think Azorius, Orzhov, Simic, Izzet, and Golgari, would join Bolas. The common theme amongst them is that they are all aiming at creating Bola-style tyrannical structure; oppression, more oppression, experiments, more experiment, then recycle to do it all over again, although in this set up Bolas would end up with three blues.
Freedom-seeking guilds like Rakdos and Gruul would not appreciate Bolas. Boros would be wonderful pawns since they usually work with Azorius on executing laws (which is odd that Tajic would deny other guilds in his Guildgate quote). Dimir in their selfish sense would deny Bolas, or subjugate him from within. Selesnya like Boros could be turned into pawns with its cult-like unity (few people acknowledge that Selesnya is very much like a cult in its absolute unity).
I think that this is an accurate expectation. I am glad that there are more people sharing my view that Gruul and Rakdos are too much freedom-loving (and anarchist) to actually join forces with Bolas. The Gruul were said to be once one of the strongest guilds and I would like them to play a role in saving Ravnica.
I am quite surprised by Boros. I really expected that Aurelia, with her zealot mindset, will be very easy to manipulate to serve Bolas. And I am pleasantly surprised by Dimir being the "good guys".
Azorius is clear. Orzhov makes sense, but I really do not see Kaya working for Bolas. I see her contract killing the Obzedat for someone in Bolas's paycheck (Teysa?). Lilina would then take over and became the fourth Bolas-loyalist walker.
Simic would make sense. Vigean Simic were downright cold bastards, and even Zegana's Simic were cold and calculating, seeking perfection. The only problem is that there is no Bolas-loyal walker to take control of them. Heck, there is exactly ONE UG walker in Magic now (not counting Nissa, obviously).
No, the Simic make absolutely no sense whatsoever as a Bolas-aligned guild. Their new iteration might be a bit cold (which doesn't mean at all open to oppression), but they also obviously try to make Ravnica a better place (reforestation, turning away from vigean ideals etc.). They are also very much into holism now and while they have their "we are not bound by the rules" tendencies, that actually also means that they wouldn't want someone like Bolas in power. In fact they seem to actively abhor people who only lust for more power. Their opinions on the other guilds (I'm citing from their Planeswalker's guide entry here) is particularly illuminating in that regard:
(About Azorius): "The Senate is well intentioned and far-sighted. But its insistence on caution and control paralyzes it. This is unfortunate, because the surface world needs its leadership, even if we do not."
- They seem to have a pretty good idea about what a good leader for the rest of Ravnica should be and I can't imagine that Bolas fits that ideal if the Azorius do.
(About Golgari): "...they focus too much on the viciousness of natural cycles, even turning against their own. They have no patience for anything that doesn't yield power."
(About Dimir): ""Such a disappointing waste of knowledge and insight. They do nothing but transform information into a currency with which to buy power and privilege."
- Bolas is all about getting power for power's sake, and the Simic clearly have very negative views on that.
(About Orzhov): "No other guild poses so great a threat to us and our mission. The Orzhov replace intellect with obedience and strength with money."
- And they don't particularly care about submitting to someone either it seems.
Bolas also doesn't really have anything the new Simic would want, in stark contrast to the Gruul, whom he could promise (or lie to about, which seems more probable) a return to a more natural Ravnica (or at least the destruction of the city). The Gruul are desperate, the Simic aren't.
How much older is Domri Rade now since the last time we were in Ravnica? He's not a little kid-like walker anymore, is he? If he's late teens/early 20s now, he might be susceptible to a Bolas offering of an end to bullying of the Gruul, since I have a vague recollection of Domri being bullied and whatnot on the streets.
Who knows how the time goes in world...I think its similar Marvel comics which is like 4 years Real Time for 1 Year In World roughly. Although that really only applies to teen characters.
The fact is, from the flavour text on that red card, Ral does not even think he is working for Bolas.
It says: "After the disappearance of Niv-Mizzet,
Ral was in command of the guild.
He had dreamt of this day, but it
felt like he was a pawn in someone else's game."
So he does not even fathom he is working for Bolas. He is probably working on something Bolas needs for his plan.
In the guilds under his control (direct or indirect control) Vraska is probably the only one to know about Bolas (and maybe Dovin Baan if he is the new governor of the Senate).
It'll just gonna be a sudden revelation and they'll all grasp the truth too late to save themselves from Bolas.
And I wouldn't dismiss the malice of Dovin so easily. He was a mean of oppression on Kaladesh. He could be a good ambassador for Nicol Bolas if their goal met, or if he was brainwashed.
Two points:
First, Ral is canonically aware that he's working for Bolas. At the end of Amonkhet after Bolas defeats the gatewatch he instructs Tezzeret to bring Ral to him, cause Ral's not meeting Bolas' timetables (not working fast enough on whatever it is that Bolas has him working on). Thus he has physically met with and been instructed by Bolas by this point in time. He may well not know, and very likely doesn't, just what Bolas is actually planning though. So it's entirely possible that Ral wouldn't be working for Bolas if he knew the truth, or would be acting to subvert him somehow if he had to work for him.
Second, Dovin is not malicious. Malice is a desire, or intention to cause harm. Dovin is actively opposite of malice. Everything he does is done to minimize damage and loss of life. As possibly misguided as his actions may be (which I would argue they're not, he's literally choosing between order and anarchy.), they're absolutely counter to malicious.
From Dovin's point of view his choices are literally A) Work for the legitimate government of the city/plane to establish and maintain order or B) Topple the government and let anarchy reign, likely leading to wide scale damage to property and populace. The ending we got for Kaladesh was ridiculously implausible and unrealistic. The Consulate offers a mea culpa and gives the rebel leader a job and that's the end? After Pia spent a DECADE fanning resentment and hostility towards the government? Promised the overthrow of the government? That doesn't just stop cause one person gets a shiny new job. If anything that just makes Pia a traitor to the rebel cause. Kaladesh's happy ending is a complete hand-wavy ass-pull.
First, Ral is canonically aware that he's working for Bolas. At the end of Amonkhet after Bolas defeats the gatewatch he instructs Tezzeret to bring Ral to him, cause Ral's not meeting Bolas' timetables (not working fast enough on whatever it is that Bolas has him working on). Thus he has physically met with and been instructed by Bolas by this point in time. He may well not know, and very likely doesn't, just what Bolas is actually planning though. So it's entirely possible that Ral wouldn't be working for Bolas if he knew the truth, or would be acting to subvert him somehow if he had to work for him.
I remember someone else posting direct quotes from that chapter that said to that point. That Tez has to go talk to Ral because Ral doesnt know who he is working for.
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First, Ral is canonically aware that he's working for Bolas. At the end of Amonkhet after Bolas defeats the gatewatch he instructs Tezzeret to bring Ral to him, cause Ral's not meeting Bolas' timetables (not working fast enough on whatever it is that Bolas has him working on). Thus he has physically met with and been instructed by Bolas by this point in time. He may well not know, and very likely doesn't, just what Bolas is actually planning though. So it's entirely possible that Ral wouldn't be working for Bolas if he knew the truth, or would be acting to subvert him somehow if he had to work for him.
I remember someone else posting direct quotes from that chapter that said to that point. That Tez has to go talk to Ral because Ral doesnt know who he is working for.
I should note that I was wrong about Tezzeret being told to bring Ral to Bolas. He was actually told to go tell Ral to come to Bolas, which is, if anything, even more indicative that Ral knows he's working for Bolas.
I guess Ral just sees Bolas as some (harsh, but ultimately benefactory) kind of sponsor/patron that allows him to further the research he wanted to do anyway and improve his own standing/prestige in the league.
Maro confirmed the Planeswalkers leading the guilds will have the same colors, which kind of takes Tezz and Lili out of the running, unless they change colors.
It more takes Tezz out of the running. I could easily see Lili gaining a color especially Red...she always been for making emotional decisions with no long term planning she is more Rakdos then she is pure Black if you ask me, always has been. I mean sure lore wise Zombies/Graveyard aren't especially Red but gameplay wise Red does a lot for Graveyard Recursion decks mostly by discarding creatures into the grave to be reanimated for the cheap and Phoenix's keep coming back from the grave.
It does mean if Azorious is on Team Bolas that Dovin being in charge seems more likely.
Lili is the face of mono Black though. Which makes her gaining a color seem unlikely. Granted I would have said that with Nissa but she quit being the face. Hoping he answers my color balance one, would help narrow down the scope.
Sure but her being under Bolas control means they can induce a temporary shift.
Kaya could be Orzhov...honestly the picture does seem like Azorious falls under Bolas Control but another UW walker seems weird.
There also is these sets being mostly contemporary with Dominaria, which makes a Lili take over seem a bit unlikely. They certainly can push Lili into different colors but I don’t think it’s too likely.
The big question is if the sides are color balanced. If they are then Lili isn’t happening and the Orzhov walker is fairly clear cut, unless they intend to double up super soon or she’s just not getting care. I’m not sure if Dovin is likely or not, but he’s more likely than Tezz at least.
I’m guessing at least one PW next set will be new though, unless Bolas got some odd pawns. It just feels like a stretch for almost all the color combinations to get a Bolas minion.
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I dont think Orzhov will be on the Bolas side at all actually, the Godless Shrine Pic doesnt show any influence, unlike the Azorious Hallowed Fountain
I think Teysa works for Bolas and pays Kaya to do the dirty work. So she does that unknowingly, but I am curious: how can you say she is AGAINST Bolas based on her pose on the cover? Also, where is the illustration for the new Godless Shrine?
By the way, worth it to point the mage with that strange geometrical hex...
Ral Zarek clearly isn't aware of everything going on.
Vraska has worked purely from quid pro quo.
The only two PWs that we know of that work for Bolas that are (currently) inextricably bound to him are Tezzeret and Liliana.
From what we can tell, at least part of Bolas's plan is to trap PWs on Ravnica. PWs will tend to react... negatively to that idea. And so turn on him. It all depends on Bolas's leverage. And if we are to judge from Ral Zarek and Vraska, Bolas's leverage is less than complete for his pawns.
Another possibility is that Orzhov is NOT taken over by Kaya, but Kaya is simply there to kill the Obzedat, and gets stranded there once the Immortal Sun is hooked up. Doubtful, but possible.
While Dovin Baan seems to be a longshot for Azorius, I cannot conceive of any rational way that they could get Tezzeret to take over the Azorius Senate. It simply isn't him.
I don't see why Simic would be Bolas-aligned, at least from a storytelling perspective. They're far too new (in their Zegana-led form) and their updated goals (+ mindset) don't seem to be extreme or suited for oppression/destruction in any way.
The symbol is blacked/broken? out instead of stained glass. Thee arches are kinds Bolased as well. Still dont think Kaya is "on Bolas side" just maybe paid to take over then will turn in the third set
I think that this is an accurate expectation. I am glad that there are more people sharing my view that Gruul and Rakdos are too much freedom-loving (and anarchist) to actually join forces with Bolas. The Gruul were said to be once one of the strongest guilds and I would like them to play a role in saving Ravnica.
I am quite surprised by Boros. I really expected that Aurelia, with her zealot mindset, will be very easy to manipulate to serve Bolas. And I am pleasantly surprised by Dimir being the "good guys".
Azorius is clear. Orzhov makes sense, but I really do not see Kaya working for Bolas. I see her contract killing the Obzedat for someone in Bolas's paycheck (Teysa?). Lilina would then take over and became the fourth Bolas-loyalist walker.
Simic would make sense. Vigean Simic were downright cold bastards, and even Zegana's Simic were cold and calculating, seeking perfection. The only problem is that there is no Bolas-loyal walker to take control of them. Heck, there is exactly ONE UG walker in Magic now (not counting Nissa, obviously).
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Gruul and/or Rakdos could easily be manipulated into working towards Bolas' plans simply by having his 'Walker exploit their anger and resentment of the system/anarchist mindset.
Gruul could easily be used by Bolas without exactly being "on his side."
Exactly. Like, Bolas has no reason to be up front. If Dovin Baan is on his side, I doubt it's because Dovin is on board with whatever Bolas wants, Dovin isn't a sadist. Rav certainly seems to have no idea what all is going on, if there is someone he's using for Gruul they may be in a similar position, or the person is lying to the Gruul.
Honestly no one is really on Bolas' side, just some people he's got a firmer hold on but everyone would betray him the second they could.
It says:
"After the disappearance of Niv-Mizzet,
Ral was in command of the guild.
He had dreamt of this day, but it
felt like he was a pawn in someone else's game."
So he does not even fathom he is working for Bolas. He is probably working on something Bolas needs for his plan.
In the guilds under his control (direct or indirect control) Vraska is probably the only one to know about Bolas (and maybe Dovin Baan if he is the new governor of the Senate).
It'll just gonna be a sudden revelation and they'll all grasp the truth too late to save themselves from Bolas.
And I wouldn't dismiss the malice of Dovin so easily. He was a mean of oppression on Kaladesh. He could be a good ambassador for Nicol Bolas if their goal met, or if he was brainwashed.
No, the Simic make absolutely no sense whatsoever as a Bolas-aligned guild. Their new iteration might be a bit cold (which doesn't mean at all open to oppression), but they also obviously try to make Ravnica a better place (reforestation, turning away from vigean ideals etc.). They are also very much into holism now and while they have their "we are not bound by the rules" tendencies, that actually also means that they wouldn't want someone like Bolas in power. In fact they seem to actively abhor people who only lust for more power. Their opinions on the other guilds (I'm citing from their Planeswalker's guide entry here) is particularly illuminating in that regard:
(About Azorius): "The Senate is well intentioned and far-sighted. But its insistence on caution and control paralyzes it. This is unfortunate, because the surface world needs its leadership, even if we do not."
- They seem to have a pretty good idea about what a good leader for the rest of Ravnica should be and I can't imagine that Bolas fits that ideal if the Azorius do.
(About Golgari): "...they focus too much on the viciousness of natural cycles, even turning against their own. They have no patience for anything that doesn't yield power."
(About Dimir): ""Such a disappointing waste of knowledge and insight. They do nothing but transform information into a currency with which to buy power and privilege."
- Bolas is all about getting power for power's sake, and the Simic clearly have very negative views on that.
(About Orzhov): "No other guild poses so great a threat to us and our mission. The Orzhov replace intellect with obedience and strength with money."
- And they don't particularly care about submitting to someone either it seems.
Bolas also doesn't really have anything the new Simic would want, in stark contrast to the Gruul, whom he could promise (or lie to about, which seems more probable) a return to a more natural Ravnica (or at least the destruction of the city). The Gruul are desperate, the Simic aren't.
Two points:
First, Ral is canonically aware that he's working for Bolas. At the end of Amonkhet after Bolas defeats the gatewatch he instructs Tezzeret to bring Ral to him, cause Ral's not meeting Bolas' timetables (not working fast enough on whatever it is that Bolas has him working on). Thus he has physically met with and been instructed by Bolas by this point in time. He may well not know, and very likely doesn't, just what Bolas is actually planning though. So it's entirely possible that Ral wouldn't be working for Bolas if he knew the truth, or would be acting to subvert him somehow if he had to work for him.
Second, Dovin is not malicious. Malice is a desire, or intention to cause harm. Dovin is actively opposite of malice. Everything he does is done to minimize damage and loss of life. As possibly misguided as his actions may be (which I would argue they're not, he's literally choosing between order and anarchy.), they're absolutely counter to malicious.
From Dovin's point of view his choices are literally A) Work for the legitimate government of the city/plane to establish and maintain order or B) Topple the government and let anarchy reign, likely leading to wide scale damage to property and populace. The ending we got for Kaladesh was ridiculously implausible and unrealistic. The Consulate offers a mea culpa and gives the rebel leader a job and that's the end? After Pia spent a DECADE fanning resentment and hostility towards the government? Promised the overthrow of the government? That doesn't just stop cause one person gets a shiny new job. If anything that just makes Pia a traitor to the rebel cause. Kaladesh's happy ending is a complete hand-wavy ass-pull.
I remember someone else posting direct quotes from that chapter that said to that point. That Tez has to go talk to Ral because Ral doesnt know who he is working for.
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Nope. Directly from the story Hour of Devastation:
Ral knows he's working for Bolas.
Idea? Dimir have always been the good guys.
It does mean if Azorious is on Team Bolas that Dovin being in charge seems more likely.
Kaya could be Orzhov...honestly the picture does seem like Azorious falls under Bolas Control but another UW walker seems weird.
There also is these sets being mostly contemporary with Dominaria, which makes a Lili take over seem a bit unlikely. They certainly can push Lili into different colors but I don’t think it’s too likely.
The big question is if the sides are color balanced. If they are then Lili isn’t happening and the Orzhov walker is fairly clear cut, unless they intend to double up super soon or she’s just not getting care. I’m not sure if Dovin is likely or not, but he’s more likely than Tezz at least.
I’m guessing at least one PW next set will be new though, unless Bolas got some odd pawns. It just feels like a stretch for almost all the color combinations to get a Bolas minion.