I know that but again Bolas read Ugin's mind so he should know where that specific location is unless its anywhere on the plane of Tarkir. Although presumably Ugin would just telepathically tell Azor or mark Bolas with some sort of rune so Azor could target across Planes. Makes you wonder about the precision. But again the point is Bolas read Ugin's mind so should know all the mechanics of how the trap works and the plan and thus not be bluff-able by two basic humans.
There is still causal torture? I should note Oldwalkers Pre Mending could also take others with them so Bolas could have dragged them off Plane and interrogated them leisurely.
They could, but not without practice and research. Urza could do it because he traveled with Xantcha for centuries first perfecting an artifice method of protecting flesh from the Blind Eternities, then later when working with the Tolarian scholars he perfected enchantment based protections from aether instead (most non-Phyrexians would object to having an artifact implanted in their stomach just for the privilege of traveling the planes). Bolas on the other hand is too egotistical to accept traveling companions and equal partners like Urza, so while he did make a portal to allow his high ranking Madaran servants to enter the meditation plane (and only the meditation plane) its very unlikely he would have ever thought to come up with a spell to take a mortal from plane to plane on a moment's notice.
Which is what makes Ego, Pride, and self-esteem such good flaws for Bolas. Taking him on in personal combat is only something the strongest and most well prepared planeswalkers can accomplish. But an observant person, even a mortal, can push his buttons just as Baisha did and he stops thinking rationally. Can he read Yashova's mind? Of course. Is he doing it at that very moment? No, because with his pride insulted and the hunter standing before him apparently showing a resistance to mental attack, he's off balance and forced to resort to the only backup plan he knows: threats of violence. He can't trust that Yashova hasn't figured out how to counterspell his mind-magic in the years since he last met her (even Oldwalkers were bound by the rules of magic itself, after all). And he can't call for backup, because he only has servants and no friends. He can't even trust his servants, because their servitude is based on fear and self interest rather than loyalty. I think this story does do a good job of showing his strengths, but also the inherent weakness of his approach: he's a manipulator, and he is very good at manipulation, powerful even in the conventional sense. But he isn't omniscient, and a suficiently clever person can turn his manipulations back on him.
Plus, I like that its a recurring motif that Bolas's kryptonite isn't other Oldwalkers or even gods, its Legendary mortals that he always underestimates because they know they have to out-think him in order to succeed. He doesn't expect a mortal to trap him on another plane with no mana, until Tetsuo goaded him into walking into exactly such a trap. He rips Teferi to shreds in a formal duel, but gets talked out of eating the entire group by Jhoira (saving Teferi as well), because he only sees his fellow planeswalkers as threatening. Even Jace and Vraska manage to outwit him because he is so sure he can sense any deception in Vraska, he forgets that mind magic can fake genuine sincerity. Its like, the best way to best Bolas is to out-Bolas Nichol Bolas. And no matter how many times that happens, he can't accept that he can be manipulated too.
Overall, fabulous story, great characters, excellent writing, and I'm suuuper pumped for an eventual return to Tarkir. I liked the Tarkir parts much more than all the dragon history.
I think they did the best they could to justify the ending. Yeah, it's pretty hard to come up with a plausible scenario for Bolas not beating a bluff with telepathy (or just, you know, Death Starring Tarkir from orbit for the lulz), but our heroes weren't exactly going to stab him to death, now were they? The twin thing was a clever bit of justification: every time he'd try to mind-control Naiva, it would work on the real Naiva back in the hedron cave, but then the ambient protection of Ugin helped her resist. Sure, maybe Bolas could have/should have read Yasova and figured out the ruse, but hey, I'm willing to give the story team credit for coming up with a reasonable explanation for why he didn't.
Now, why Bolas wouldn't go do a little research, come back a year later and nuke 'em all then...ah well.
Speaking of which, on the timeline, how much time elapses between this story and Bolas's defeat by Tetsuo Umezawa?
My thoughts as well, pretty much. I wish some things were done differently to have made it go smoother but...oh well. Other than the unbelievable parts, or premise, the writing was pretty good.
I like the Temur and Tarkir. But it did present Bolas pretty petty and more easily tricked than believed possible for a Oldwalker.
Then again Oldwalker Feroz died from a lab accident involving a frozen ice elemental so...
I know that but again Bolas read Ugin's mind so he should know where that specific location is unless its anywhere on the plane of Tarkir. Although presumably Ugin would just telepathically tell Azor or mark Bolas with some sort of rune so Azor could target across Planes. Makes you wonder about the precision. But again the point is Bolas read Ugin's mind so should know all the mechanics of how the trap works and the plan and thus not be bluff-able by two basic humans.
And that where I think your wrong, Ugin just says he'll lure Bolas to Tarkir and the implication is thats why Bolas won't return again, he afraid that someone he'd get trapped. (Because Ugin didn't know) Bolas also never saw Ugin's plan to be in hedrons that have Ugins magical power in them, so he already knows something isn't as simple as when he left Tarkir.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
So. Ugin's impact made the Talon Gates? Uuugh. Getting reeeaaal damned tired of retcons...
Was that confirmed? I mean honestly some of the old lore does have to get cleaned up (granted I am not a fan of most of these changes) but I acknowledge some are needed) but come on the Leviathan Fight to make the Talon Gates was an awesome story that didn't need changes.
So. Ugin's impact made the Talon Gates? Uuugh. Getting reeeaaal damned tired of retcons...
No it didn't, Bolas made a monument over Ugin impact in the Mediation Realm :roll eyes:
In the Meditation Realm, the god-emperor perches atop an outcropping of rock amid the ruins of a once handsome temple whose columns and roof were dashed to the ground at the time of the cataclysm. To Bolas, these marks of devastation are marks of victory. His wings, outspread, cast a shadow over the waters. He can't quite recall exactly where Ugin fell, but fall he did, and now the opaque waters have become his grave.
This, the site of his greatest triumph, is a fitting place for him to ruminate over his plans.... Here, he erects two gigantic curved horns so they emerge from the waters as if a gargantuan dragon lies sleeping beneath, body hidden from sight.
Consider he has the title of god-emperor we can assume he already took over Madara and the Leviathan dual happened off screen at this point in time.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
My point is this bluff should fail because Bolas should know Ugin's trapping mechanism is on Ixalan. Since you know as noted in the Ixalan Story Bolas Read Ugin's mind and plundered it for secrets when he struck Ugin down on Tarkir. That seems to be forgotten in this storyline so these two can bluff Bolas. This story should be consistent with Ixalan which was only a year back.
He knows its on Ixalan and it is supposed to pull him from Tarkir to Iaxlan. He knows all of this which is why the bluff works. If he didn't know it wouldn't make any sense to him.
"You're standing right where the hedrons concentrate magical force into a nexus of great power," Grandmother went on. "The Immortal Sun is pointed here, at this very spot on Tarkir. It will drag you to another plane and, there, trap you for all eternity. Why do you think we've kept you talking all this time? So it can be activated, and you'll never planeswalk again."
So, in the original timeline, Bolas returns and finds Ugin's bones lying where he left them. Yasova was victorious and all the "lessons" she speaks of in regards to working with Bolas don't matter, because she succeeded.
In the new timeline, Bolas returns and gets bluffed into leaving and never returning.
Anyways, even if I accept that Bolas was bluffed away from Tarkir and decided never to return himself out of fear of being captured, it's still mightily convenient that he never decided to send an agent to Tarkir to check on the hedrons and Ugin's corpse.
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So, in the original timeline, Bolas returns and finds Ugin's bones lying where he left them. Yasova was victorious and all the "lessons" she speaks of in regards to working with Bolas don't matter, because she succeeded.
In the new timeline, Bolas returns and gets bluffed into leaving and never returning.
Anyways, even if I accept that Bolas was bluffed away from Tarkir and decided never to return himself out of fear of being captured, it's still mightily convenient that he never decided to send an agent to Tarkir to check on the hedrons and Ugin's corpse.
Imagine he sends someone. They report there is still a pile of hedrons humming with magic which tells Bolas either nothing or the trap is still waiting for him.
What would you expect a minion to be able to do or learn by being sent to tarkir? Are they expected to spring the trap? Or is the trap not springing proof there was no trap? It is a trap laid by Ugin so it could easily laid so it only springs on Bolas so nothing happening to his minion tells him nothing. Even it being sprung on his minion tells him little, it could be set to take any walker and the trap is still there.
Either way, would it really be that simple? If it were me, I'd give this thing a rather high priority level, because 1) it's ugin and 2) these hedrons are damn interesting and powerful. And even if you don't study them on Tarkir, you still would on Zendikar. Then once you think you can budge or manipulate them send someone with specific instructions to Tarkir to crack them open.
It's hard to accept that this would be the end of it all. You walk away and that's it? No, you keep tabs on the damn thing because something is definitely up with it.
Look, I'm just not buying what they presented here, it's too easy to poke holes in.
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Commander
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Dragonlord Ojutai
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
The Ur-Dragon
So. Ugin's impact made the Talon Gates? Uuugh. Getting reeeaaal damned tired of retcons...
Was that confirmed? I mean honestly some of the old lore does have to get cleaned up (granted I am not a fan of most of these changes) but I acknowledge some are needed) but come on the Leviathan Fight to make the Talon Gates was an awesome story that didn't need changes.
Are they really changing the origin of the Talon Gates? Sad if they do.
Have imagined an epic battle for Bolas to fight and defeat something like a Nemesis of Reason after reading the story.
The Tarkir time stuff is interesting. In the Tarkir thread, we got into debates about how the change in the past could impact other planes if any planeswalker visited Tarkir in both timelines. If Bob goes to dragonless Tarkir and then goes to another plane, his life will be different than if Bob went to dragon overload Tarkir and then went to another plane. As long as Tarkir was self-contained, this wouldn't be an issue. The time change would only impact Tarkir.
Here, though, it gets messy. The Crux of Fate was Ugin's fall. In original timeline, he died. If Bolas came back 20 years later to check on Ugin, Yasova wouldn't be there with the twins, he wouldn't be spooked by the Immortal Sun, and Ugin's skeleton and the end of dragonstorms would reassure Bolas that Ugin was, indeed, dead.
In new timeline, we have the Core set story. There's Yasova, the twins, the hedron shell, the fear that Ugin may still be around, etc. You can't say that Bolas would behave the same way after Tarkir A as he would in Tarkir B. In Tarkir A timeline, he'd be operating mostly unafraid of Ugin returning. That's for hundreds of thousands of years, on who knows how many planes. But on Tarkir B timeline, he'd likely still be spooked by Ugin and looking over his shoulder. That could, and frankly should, be a huge impact on the history of other planes and actions.
My personal feeling is that introducing Bolas on Tarkir wasn't really necessary, and caused more narrative problems than solutions.
So. Ugin's impact made the Talon Gates? Uuugh. Getting reeeaaal damned tired of retcons...
Was that confirmed? I mean honestly some of the old lore does have to get cleaned up (granted I am not a fan of most of these changes) but I acknowledge some are needed) but come on the Leviathan Fight to make the Talon Gates was an awesome story that didn't need changes.
Are they really changing the origin of the Talon Gates? Sad if they do.
Have imagined an epic battle for Bolas to fight and defeat something like a Nemesis of Reason after reading the story.
Either way, would it really be that simple? If it were me, I'd give this thing a rather high priority level, because 1) it's ugin and 2) these hedrons are damn interesting and powerful. And even if you don't study them on Tarkir, you still would on Zendikar. Then once you think you can budge or manipulate them send someone with specific instructions to Tarkir to crack them open.
It's hard to accept that this would be the end of it all. You walk away and that's it? No, you keep tabs on the damn thing because something is definitely up with it.
Look, I'm just not buying what they presented here, it's too easy to poke holes in.
I *think* Bolas ends up killed "soon" (for him) after this by Tetsuo and is dead until the mending, then he's been busy with his plans to regain power.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
So it appears that there is something close to 800-900 years betwen the Tarkir section of this story and Nicol Bolas's defeat by Tetsuo Umezawa. I guess Nicol just kinda back-burnered the whole Immortal Sun thing, huh?
None of this really bothers me. The main thing I'm hoping for is more writing of this high quality. Wizards, give Kate Elliott more work!
You don't bluff Bolas. He looks into your eyes and sees what cards you're holding; that's why Jace has to erase Vraska's memories of their sabotage plot. And he loses now by being lied to?
1. The story specifies that Yasova was using her counter-magic to prevent Bolas from reading her and Baishya and Naiva's minds. Remember, this is a shaman who'd been one of the five most powerful non-dragon magic users on Tarkir, whose own mind magic was powerful enough to let her take control of dozens of dragonsat once. She might not be on par with a planeswalker like Jace, let alone an ancient draconic planeswalker like Bolas, but she's about as powerful as a mortal planebound mind mage can get. It's completely believable that she would be able to hold her own against Bolas' mental assault, at least for a limited time, and a limited time is all that was required here.
2. The story also specifies that the hedrons were also providing their minds with extra protection, like a "whisperer's headdress" (which is presumably some kind of artifact that Temur shamans use to shield their minds from telepathy) but extended to cover multiple people. Again, I have no doubt that Bolas would've eventually been able to overcome Yasova and Baishya's mental defenses, even with this added protection, but it would've cost him time that he believed he didn't have.
3. In spite of these protections, Bolas was still able to keep influencing Naiva's mind, since he'd already gotten his hooks into her psyche. If Naiva had actually been standing outside with Yasova, there's a very good chance that she would have killed her grandmother when he commanded her to. It's only because Naiva and Baishya switched places that Bolas' plan didn't work; the fake Naiva was able to seemingly resist Bolas' spell because it wasn't really targeting her at all. And there's a very good chance that Bolas immediately realized exactly what had happened, but at that point it was irrelevant because Yasova's bluff gave him bigger problems to worry about.
4. This point is more subtle, because it requires a lot of reading between the lines, but it's key to understanding what happened. Some people have argued that, even if he couldn't read their minds directly, Bolas should've guessed they were deceiving him because their minds were shielded. After all, if they were being honest with him, they shouldn't have anything to hide, right? This makes sense to me, but it's actually all the more reason why it makes sense that their bluff succeeded: He did realize that they were trying to deceive him, which made their threats of a trap all the more believable from his perspective. Their bluff was centered around him realizing that he was being tricked, but not knowing what the trick itself was - that's the brilliance of it. They pulled a Kansas City Shuffle on him, and that type of con is very likely to succeed against a mark who's too clever and too paranoid for his own good.
5. This is an even more subtle point, but it's important to remember that when he read Ugin's mind during their battle, he wouldn't have seen anything about the hedrons, because they hadn't been part of Ugin's original plan to imprison Bolas. It was Sarkhan who brought the hedrons to Tarkir, at the behest of Ugin's ghost. While living, the idea that he could use hedrons to resurrect himself wouldn't have been present in Ugin's mind, or at least not among his thoughts relating to the imprisonment plan. To Bolas, the hedrons were a powerful new unknown factor that had suddenly come into play, despite the fact that they didn't fit with what he thought he knew about Ugin and Azor's plan. This would've made it seem all the more likely that Ugin had pulled a Thanatos Gambit on him, with the hedrons serving as a secret part of the imprisonment plan that Ugin had somehow managed to keep hidden from him.
6. Compounding the previous two points, Ugin was the only being in the multiverse who Bolas truly viewed as an equal, or at least close to one. If anyone could pull the wool over Bolas' eyes, it would be Ugin. And if there was even the slightest chance that Ugin had gotten one over on him, Bolas wasn't going to take any risks, not when the stakes were so high. It makes perfect sense that he'd flee as soon as possible, without taking the time to examine the situation further. I'm sure that Bolas was fully aware that Yasova might have been bluffing, but would calling her bluff have been worth the possibility of being bound to a single plane forever?
7. As for why Bolas didn't go back to Tarkir later to investigate more, why would he take the risk? From his perspective, he had nothing to gain and quite literally everything to lose. Remember, as far as he could tell, Ugin genuinely was dead and wouldn't be coming back again. Yasova's bluff was mainly meant to scare Bolas away, but it also served to provide him with an alternate explanation of the hedrons' purpose, drawing his attention away from the fact that they could be used to resurrect Ugin. Granted, he could've sent minions to go to Tarkir in his stead (and maybe he did, for all we know), but it's unlikely they would've been able to tell Bolas anything he didn't already know. Bolas also became bound to Dominaria at some point between this story and the present day, and then trapped in the Madaran rift as a disembodied spirit following his death, so there's a long period of time in which he simply couldn't have gone back to Tarkir.
Some of this discussion is just getting ridiculous. Why didnt he do that? He should have done this? Hes too powerful for whatever? I mean come on its a STORY people. If you dont like the ride then get off.
Kind of like the movies when the bad guy(murderer, monster, horror thing) gets knocked down or shot or whatever. Of course the victim should unload the rest of the clip, chop their head off or what have you to end it BUT then what are you going to do for the other hour and a half. Same thing, its for story purposes.
These authors and Wizards are writing the stories to advance THEIR narrative, not yours. Sometimes they even give you hints or explainations to justify the outcomes, you people just dont accept them.
Bolas is set up as someone who is ultra powerful BUT also is set up to be somewhat weak, insecure and sensitive to his shortcomings and ego. It makes relative sense that someone could trick or at least distract him by preying on those weakness. Especially if the outcome for him would be the end of what he considers his greates ability of Planeswalking. He couldnt take that chance to be so small again.
Sure he could smite them and blah blah blah but where would that get us when it comes to the story telling.
I mean He is not as powerful as an eight year old who can change everything with a single moth. That will be some dancing when and if she shows up in stories, but then again Ill accept it because it is just that a Story>
I really enjoyed the whole Core 19 story as it further demonstrated Bolas`s weakness: his ego, sensitivity to be thought less off than he wants to Project
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Either way, would it really be that simple? If it were me, I'd give this thing a rather high priority level, because 1) it's ugin and 2) these hedrons are damn interesting and powerful. And even if you don't study them on Tarkir, you still would on Zendikar. Then once you think you can budge or manipulate them send someone with specific instructions to Tarkir to crack them open.
It's hard to accept that this would be the end of it all. You walk away and that's it? No, you keep tabs on the damn thing because something is definitely up with it.
Look, I'm just not buying what they presented here, it's too easy to poke holes in.
What is so simple? We know he continued to study the hedrons already because he does so to unlock the Eldrazi. So lets assume the way he knows how to open them is the same. Now he has to grab three premending walkers, with a specific set of skills, and force them into an assumed planeswalker trap and get them to unlock the hedrons all so that he is now down three minions and rid of one easily avoidable trap. The costs to benefit ratio is a mess.
Would he have kept an eye on it? Probably I can't find a reason to not keep an eye on it all the way up until the point where he dies. Having kept an eye on it for 900ish years he learns that the potential trap is still ready to be sprung because nothing has changed. There is no need to except this is the end of it all, only that nothing important happens after this which is very easy to believe.
I welcome you to "easily poke holes in it" but I don't see any.
So it appears that there is something close to 800-900 years betwen the Tarkir section of this story and Nicol Bolas's defeat by Tetsuo Umezawa. I guess Nicol just kinda back-burnered the whole Immortal Sun thing, huh?
None of this really bothers me. The main thing I'm hoping for is more writing of this high quality. Wizards, give Kate Elliott more work!
i made a small timeline post a few pages back, i think its only around 40ish years after this story that he gets beat by Umezawa. All my info came from gamepedia though, and i dunno how accurate that is.
Either way, would it really be that simple? If it were me, I'd give this thing a rather high priority level, because 1) it's ugin and 2) these hedrons are damn interesting and powerful. And even if you don't study them on Tarkir, you still would on Zendikar. Then once you think you can budge or manipulate them send someone with specific instructions to Tarkir to crack them open.
I mean, Bolas did figure out how to crack the Eldrazi's hedron prison on Zendikar. Supposedly, his goal was to see how planeswalkers responded to the unleashed threat. Perhaps it was his attempt to force Ugin to leave the hedron cocoon and willingly disarm the trap?
Sure, it's been a while since Bolas was tricked off Tarkir in this story (about 1300 years, and during a large chunk of that he was trapped), but I believe Bolas addresses this point best:
"What you don't understand is that I have all the time in the worlds, while your time is running out fast."
Throughout these stories, we have Nicol and Ugin considering what would be vast swathes of time to us as next to nothing. Taking a millennia to figure out if the trap is real or not is Bolas prioritizing this.
Plot twist: Bolas did mindread them both and knew they had made it up, but also realized that it was an actual possibility. Afterall, Bolas only knew from Ugin that they planned to trap him on Ixalan, not that they could do so remotely and that the plan was, indeed, to do it while on Tarkir.
Adding these pieces to the puzzle, which Baishya actually knew and Bolas could have easily extracted from her mind could mean that even if he knew that the humans were full of lies, that doesn't mean what they said wasn't actually true.
So instead of taking any chances he left.
Of course such a convoluted twist would have required more setting up and resolving, but that's my headcanon.
Plot twist: Bolas did mindread them both and knew they had made it up, but also realized that it was an actual possibility. Afterall, Bolas only knew from Ugin that they planned to trap him on Ixalan, not that they could do so remotely and that the plan was, indeed, to do it while on Tarkir.
Adding these pieces to the puzzle, which Baishya actually knew and Bolas could have easily extracted from her mind could mean that even if he knew that the humans were full of lies, that doesn't mean what they said wasn't actually true.
So instead of taking any chances he left.
Of course such a convoluted twist would have required more setting up and resolving, but that's my headcanon.
Hm. I like this suggestion, actually. It works.
I'm curious about the scene where Bolas reaches for the sleeping girl in the meditation plane. First of all, is the sleeping girl the soul of that plane? And is that scene implying he is twisting that realm to suit his desires and needs? That he basically took over the plane? Seems like a precursor to what we know he'll do on Amonkhet.
So that means for the next 50-100 years?? Bolas was just scared to go back to Tarkir on check on Ugin to see if he was dead? Fearful of the Trap?
They could, but not without practice and research. Urza could do it because he traveled with Xantcha for centuries first perfecting an artifice method of protecting flesh from the Blind Eternities, then later when working with the Tolarian scholars he perfected enchantment based protections from aether instead (most non-Phyrexians would object to having an artifact implanted in their stomach just for the privilege of traveling the planes). Bolas on the other hand is too egotistical to accept traveling companions and equal partners like Urza, so while he did make a portal to allow his high ranking Madaran servants to enter the meditation plane (and only the meditation plane) its very unlikely he would have ever thought to come up with a spell to take a mortal from plane to plane on a moment's notice.
Which is what makes Ego, Pride, and self-esteem such good flaws for Bolas. Taking him on in personal combat is only something the strongest and most well prepared planeswalkers can accomplish. But an observant person, even a mortal, can push his buttons just as Baisha did and he stops thinking rationally. Can he read Yashova's mind? Of course. Is he doing it at that very moment? No, because with his pride insulted and the hunter standing before him apparently showing a resistance to mental attack, he's off balance and forced to resort to the only backup plan he knows: threats of violence. He can't trust that Yashova hasn't figured out how to counterspell his mind-magic in the years since he last met her (even Oldwalkers were bound by the rules of magic itself, after all). And he can't call for backup, because he only has servants and no friends. He can't even trust his servants, because their servitude is based on fear and self interest rather than loyalty. I think this story does do a good job of showing his strengths, but also the inherent weakness of his approach: he's a manipulator, and he is very good at manipulation, powerful even in the conventional sense. But he isn't omniscient, and a suficiently clever person can turn his manipulations back on him.
Plus, I like that its a recurring motif that Bolas's kryptonite isn't other Oldwalkers or even gods, its Legendary mortals that he always underestimates because they know they have to out-think him in order to succeed. He doesn't expect a mortal to trap him on another plane with no mana, until Tetsuo goaded him into walking into exactly such a trap. He rips Teferi to shreds in a formal duel, but gets talked out of eating the entire group by Jhoira (saving Teferi as well), because he only sees his fellow planeswalkers as threatening. Even Jace and Vraska manage to outwit him because he is so sure he can sense any deception in Vraska, he forgets that mind magic can fake genuine sincerity. Its like, the best way to best Bolas is to out-Bolas Nichol Bolas. And no matter how many times that happens, he can't accept that he can be manipulated too.
My thoughts as well, pretty much. I wish some things were done differently to have made it go smoother but...oh well. Other than the unbelievable parts, or premise, the writing was pretty good.
I like the Temur and Tarkir. But it did present Bolas pretty petty and more easily tricked than believed possible for a Oldwalker.
Then again Oldwalker Feroz died from a lab accident involving a frozen ice elemental so...
I dunno?
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
And that where I think your wrong, Ugin just says he'll lure Bolas to Tarkir and the implication is thats why Bolas won't return again, he afraid that someone he'd get trapped. (Because Ugin didn't know) Bolas also never saw Ugin's plan to be in hedrons that have Ugins magical power in them, so he already knows something isn't as simple as when he left Tarkir.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Was that confirmed? I mean honestly some of the old lore does have to get cleaned up (granted I am not a fan of most of these changes) but I acknowledge some are needed) but come on the Leviathan Fight to make the Talon Gates was an awesome story that didn't need changes.
No it didn't, Bolas made a monument over Ugin impact in the Mediation Realm :roll eyes:
Consider he has the title of god-emperor we can assume he already took over Madara and the Leviathan dual happened off screen at this point in time.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
"Ugin might one up me again, as he had repeatedly done so in the past!"
Therefore he fell for it. This is the most plausible explanation.
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In the new timeline, Bolas returns and gets bluffed into leaving and never returning.
Anyways, even if I accept that Bolas was bluffed away from Tarkir and decided never to return himself out of fear of being captured, it's still mightily convenient that he never decided to send an agent to Tarkir to check on the hedrons and Ugin's corpse.
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What would you expect a minion to be able to do or learn by being sent to tarkir? Are they expected to spring the trap? Or is the trap not springing proof there was no trap? It is a trap laid by Ugin so it could easily laid so it only springs on Bolas so nothing happening to his minion tells him nothing. Even it being sprung on his minion tells him little, it could be set to take any walker and the trap is still there.
Either way, would it really be that simple? If it were me, I'd give this thing a rather high priority level, because 1) it's ugin and 2) these hedrons are damn interesting and powerful. And even if you don't study them on Tarkir, you still would on Zendikar. Then once you think you can budge or manipulate them send someone with specific instructions to Tarkir to crack them open.
It's hard to accept that this would be the end of it all. You walk away and that's it? No, you keep tabs on the damn thing because something is definitely up with it.
Look, I'm just not buying what they presented here, it's too easy to poke holes in.
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Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Dragonlord Ojutai
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Are they really changing the origin of the Talon Gates? Sad if they do.
Have imagined an epic battle for Bolas to fight and defeat something like a Nemesis of Reason after reading the story.
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Here, though, it gets messy. The Crux of Fate was Ugin's fall. In original timeline, he died. If Bolas came back 20 years later to check on Ugin, Yasova wouldn't be there with the twins, he wouldn't be spooked by the Immortal Sun, and Ugin's skeleton and the end of dragonstorms would reassure Bolas that Ugin was, indeed, dead.
In new timeline, we have the Core set story. There's Yasova, the twins, the hedron shell, the fear that Ugin may still be around, etc. You can't say that Bolas would behave the same way after Tarkir A as he would in Tarkir B. In Tarkir A timeline, he'd be operating mostly unafraid of Ugin returning. That's for hundreds of thousands of years, on who knows how many planes. But on Tarkir B timeline, he'd likely still be spooked by Ugin and looking over his shoulder. That could, and frankly should, be a huge impact on the history of other planes and actions.
My personal feeling is that introducing Bolas on Tarkir wasn't really necessary, and caused more narrative problems than solutions.
Nope, just people jumping to conclusions.
I *think* Bolas ends up killed "soon" (for him) after this by Tetsuo and is dead until the mending, then he's been busy with his plans to regain power.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
None of this really bothers me. The main thing I'm hoping for is more writing of this high quality. Wizards, give Kate Elliott more work!
1. The story specifies that Yasova was using her counter-magic to prevent Bolas from reading her and Baishya and Naiva's minds. Remember, this is a shaman who'd been one of the five most powerful non-dragon magic users on Tarkir, whose own mind magic was powerful enough to let her take control of dozens of dragons at once. She might not be on par with a planeswalker like Jace, let alone an ancient draconic planeswalker like Bolas, but she's about as powerful as a mortal planebound mind mage can get. It's completely believable that she would be able to hold her own against Bolas' mental assault, at least for a limited time, and a limited time is all that was required here.
2. The story also specifies that the hedrons were also providing their minds with extra protection, like a "whisperer's headdress" (which is presumably some kind of artifact that Temur shamans use to shield their minds from telepathy) but extended to cover multiple people. Again, I have no doubt that Bolas would've eventually been able to overcome Yasova and Baishya's mental defenses, even with this added protection, but it would've cost him time that he believed he didn't have.
3. In spite of these protections, Bolas was still able to keep influencing Naiva's mind, since he'd already gotten his hooks into her psyche. If Naiva had actually been standing outside with Yasova, there's a very good chance that she would have killed her grandmother when he commanded her to. It's only because Naiva and Baishya switched places that Bolas' plan didn't work; the fake Naiva was able to seemingly resist Bolas' spell because it wasn't really targeting her at all. And there's a very good chance that Bolas immediately realized exactly what had happened, but at that point it was irrelevant because Yasova's bluff gave him bigger problems to worry about.
4. This point is more subtle, because it requires a lot of reading between the lines, but it's key to understanding what happened. Some people have argued that, even if he couldn't read their minds directly, Bolas should've guessed they were deceiving him because their minds were shielded. After all, if they were being honest with him, they shouldn't have anything to hide, right? This makes sense to me, but it's actually all the more reason why it makes sense that their bluff succeeded: He did realize that they were trying to deceive him, which made their threats of a trap all the more believable from his perspective. Their bluff was centered around him realizing that he was being tricked, but not knowing what the trick itself was - that's the brilliance of it. They pulled a Kansas City Shuffle on him, and that type of con is very likely to succeed against a mark who's too clever and too paranoid for his own good.
5. This is an even more subtle point, but it's important to remember that when he read Ugin's mind during their battle, he wouldn't have seen anything about the hedrons, because they hadn't been part of Ugin's original plan to imprison Bolas. It was Sarkhan who brought the hedrons to Tarkir, at the behest of Ugin's ghost. While living, the idea that he could use hedrons to resurrect himself wouldn't have been present in Ugin's mind, or at least not among his thoughts relating to the imprisonment plan. To Bolas, the hedrons were a powerful new unknown factor that had suddenly come into play, despite the fact that they didn't fit with what he thought he knew about Ugin and Azor's plan. This would've made it seem all the more likely that Ugin had pulled a Thanatos Gambit on him, with the hedrons serving as a secret part of the imprisonment plan that Ugin had somehow managed to keep hidden from him.
6. Compounding the previous two points, Ugin was the only being in the multiverse who Bolas truly viewed as an equal, or at least close to one. If anyone could pull the wool over Bolas' eyes, it would be Ugin. And if there was even the slightest chance that Ugin had gotten one over on him, Bolas wasn't going to take any risks, not when the stakes were so high. It makes perfect sense that he'd flee as soon as possible, without taking the time to examine the situation further. I'm sure that Bolas was fully aware that Yasova might have been bluffing, but would calling her bluff have been worth the possibility of being bound to a single plane forever?
7. As for why Bolas didn't go back to Tarkir later to investigate more, why would he take the risk? From his perspective, he had nothing to gain and quite literally everything to lose. Remember, as far as he could tell, Ugin genuinely was dead and wouldn't be coming back again. Yasova's bluff was mainly meant to scare Bolas away, but it also served to provide him with an alternate explanation of the hedrons' purpose, drawing his attention away from the fact that they could be used to resurrect Ugin. Granted, he could've sent minions to go to Tarkir in his stead (and maybe he did, for all we know), but it's unlikely they would've been able to tell Bolas anything he didn't already know. Bolas also became bound to Dominaria at some point between this story and the present day, and then trapped in the Madaran rift as a disembodied spirit following his death, so there's a long period of time in which he simply couldn't have gone back to Tarkir.
Some of this discussion is just getting ridiculous. Why didnt he do that? He should have done this? Hes too powerful for whatever? I mean come on its a STORY people. If you dont like the ride then get off.
Kind of like the movies when the bad guy(murderer, monster, horror thing) gets knocked down or shot or whatever. Of course the victim should unload the rest of the clip, chop their head off or what have you to end it BUT then what are you going to do for the other hour and a half. Same thing, its for story purposes.
These authors and Wizards are writing the stories to advance THEIR narrative, not yours. Sometimes they even give you hints or explainations to justify the outcomes, you people just dont accept them.
Bolas is set up as someone who is ultra powerful BUT also is set up to be somewhat weak, insecure and sensitive to his shortcomings and ego. It makes relative sense that someone could trick or at least distract him by preying on those weakness. Especially if the outcome for him would be the end of what he considers his greates ability of Planeswalking. He couldnt take that chance to be so small again.
Sure he could smite them and blah blah blah but where would that get us when it comes to the story telling.
I mean He is not as powerful as an eight year old who can change everything with a single moth. That will be some dancing when and if she shows up in stories, but then again Ill accept it because it is just that a Story>
I really enjoyed the whole Core 19 story as it further demonstrated Bolas`s weakness: his ego, sensitivity to be thought less off than he wants to Project
Would he have kept an eye on it? Probably I can't find a reason to not keep an eye on it all the way up until the point where he dies. Having kept an eye on it for 900ish years he learns that the potential trap is still ready to be sprung because nothing has changed. There is no need to except this is the end of it all, only that nothing important happens after this which is very easy to believe.
I welcome you to "easily poke holes in it" but I don't see any.
i made a small timeline post a few pages back, i think its only around 40ish years after this story that he gets beat by Umezawa. All my info came from gamepedia though, and i dunno how accurate that is.
I mean, Bolas did figure out how to crack the Eldrazi's hedron prison on Zendikar. Supposedly, his goal was to see how planeswalkers responded to the unleashed threat. Perhaps it was his attempt to force Ugin to leave the hedron cocoon and willingly disarm the trap?
Sure, it's been a while since Bolas was tricked off Tarkir in this story (about 1300 years, and during a large chunk of that he was trapped), but I believe Bolas addresses this point best:
"What you don't understand is that I have all the time in the worlds, while your time is running out fast."
Throughout these stories, we have Nicol and Ugin considering what would be vast swathes of time to us as next to nothing. Taking a millennia to figure out if the trap is real or not is Bolas prioritizing this.
Adding these pieces to the puzzle, which Baishya actually knew and Bolas could have easily extracted from her mind could mean that even if he knew that the humans were full of lies, that doesn't mean what they said wasn't actually true.
So instead of taking any chances he left.
Of course such a convoluted twist would have required more setting up and resolving, but that's my headcanon.
I'm curious about the scene where Bolas reaches for the sleeping girl in the meditation plane. First of all, is the sleeping girl the soul of that plane? And is that scene implying he is twisting that realm to suit his desires and needs? That he basically took over the plane? Seems like a precursor to what we know he'll do on Amonkhet.
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