Baby Ugin and Bolas are different from their ancient versions we know today. You can see the seeds that will grow into the elder dragons, but still they're different. So I re-read the trapped Bolas part again. Bolas does want to save his sibling who is being slaughtered. He's all action. Ugin thinks more about the situation. One person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling exclusively because he's worried about his twin brother. Another person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling primarily because the struggle would draw attention not just to Bolas, but to Ugin as well, thereby risking Ugin's life. It's wide open for debate as to whether that moment was selfless or selfish.
Bolas was trapped, Ugin wasn't. If Bolas made a sound and caught their attention, Ugin was free to (clumsily) fly away. As such, Ugin's life was only ever at the most minor risk (even if Bolas made a sound before being freed). So it is pretty clear that Ugin wasn't acting entirely selfishly (he might have wanted to save his sibling to ensure his own safety with numbers).
That being said, it's open to debate as to why Ugin chose to try and save Bolas over Merevia Sal. Proximity? Closer relationship? Coldly calculated inability for runt Ugin and Merevia to overpower the hunters?
Ugin says he wanted to study the Eldrazi. But he sacrificed an entire plane of living things to trap them there and cajoled an ally into keeping eternal watch over them. It created havoc on the plane and, as we are now aware, their escape from their prison led to the destruction of most of Zendikar. And if his primary purpose was to study them, why wasn't he there almost all the time with Nahiri? Why was she sleeping in stone, alone, for what seems to be most of the time? Did he have a plan for what to do after he was done studying them? (That we don't know) And if he so strongly believed the Eldrazi serve a purpose, why imprison them for thousands of years (or however long, I forget the specifics)? Wouldn't that ruin their purpose just as much as killing them?
Trapping doesn't quite ruin their purpose (if they have one) as much as killing does. One can release a trapped entity, while killing (generally) can't be undone (should disastrous side effects ensue).
Baby Ugin and Bolas are different from their ancient versions we know today. You can see the seeds that will grow into the elder dragons, but still they're different. So I re-read the trapped Bolas part again. Bolas does want to save his sibling who is being slaughtered. He's all action. Ugin thinks more about the situation. One person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling exclusively because he's worried about his twin brother. Another person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling primarily because the struggle would draw attention not just to Bolas, but to Ugin as well, thereby risking Ugin's life. It's wide open for debate as to whether that moment was selfless or selfish.
Bolas was trapped, Ugin wasn't. If Bolas made a sound and caught their attention, Ugin was free to (clumsily) fly away. As such, Ugin's life was only ever at the most minor risk (even if Bolas made a sound before being freed). So it is pretty clear that Ugin wasn't acting entirely selfishly (he might have wanted to save his sibling to ensure his own safety with numbers).
That being said, it's open to debate as to why Ugin chose to try and save Bolas over Merevia Sal. Proximity? Closer relationship? Coldly calculated inability for runt Ugin and Merevia to overpower the hunters?
Ugin says he wanted to study the Eldrazi. But he sacrificed an entire plane of living things to trap them there and cajoled an ally into keeping eternal watch over them. It created havoc on the plane and, as we are now aware, their escape from their prison led to the destruction of most of Zendikar. And if his primary purpose was to study them, why wasn't he there almost all the time with Nahiri? Why was she sleeping in stone, alone, for what seems to be most of the time? Did he have a plan for what to do after he was done studying them? (That we don't know) And if he so strongly believed the Eldrazi serve a purpose, why imprison them for thousands of years (or however long, I forget the specifics)? Wouldn't that ruin their purpose just as much as killing them?
Trapping doesn't quite ruin their purpose (if they have one) as much as killing does. One can release a trapped entity, while killing (generally) can't be undone (should disastrous side effects ensue).
Both fair points. As to the Eldrazi one, it may have been the weaker storytelling around that time, but it seems to me that keeping entities away from their usual purpose (they were purposefully attracted to Zendikar, away from whatever else they would be doing) for a long period of time (by mortal reckoning) and possibly indefinitely would damage the Multiverse as much as killing them. If they serve a Multiverse purpose, keeping them from that purpose, whether by prison or death, may jeopardize the Multiverse. And as Ugin didn't know too much about them in the first place, that seems an awful risk to take.
As to the Eldrazi one, it may have been the weaker storytelling around that time, but it seems to me that keeping entities away from their usual purpose (they were purposefully attracted to Zendikar, away from whatever else they would be doing) for a long period of time (by mortal reckoning) and possibly indefinitely would damage the Multiverse as much as killing them. If they serve a Multiverse purpose, keeping them from that purpose, whether by prison or death, may jeopardize the Multiverse. And as Ugin didn't know too much about them in the first place, that seems an awful risk to take.
Not really (provided he stayed alive to monitor the situation or built systems into the hedron network to do so). If the multiverse showed signs of damage or atrophy while the Eldrazi were imprisoned, Ugin could have them released (using the same argument he wielded to get Nahiri involved in the first place, "more people will suffer and die if you don't").
Given the Eldrazi capacity to live seemingly forever and generally avoid life threatening damage (bar being pulled completely into a world and killed), the effects of their absence might take quite a long time to manifest. Ergo to observe such effects, one needs to keep them from their activities for a long period of time while retaining the capacity to let them free if the need presents itself.
The only issue is that Ugin didn't stay alive (not for lack of trying).
Baby Bolas is ironically an example of Good Guy Grixis, or the colors manifesting their best qualities together. We see in this story a Bolas who is clever and reflective (blue), passionate and inclined to action (red), and self preserving and pragmatic (black). It will be interesting to see how he falls into Grixis' worst aspects. We see a bit of it in this story, his musing that it it's better to hunt than be hunted, which foreshadows his willingness to commit cruelty to get what he wants but also suggests that pursuit of mere survival may be what pushes him down that path. His sadism also shows up with his enjoyment of killing the dogs, which goes a bit beyond a predator enjoying the flavor of it's prey. Still, he's not locked into the villain role at this point, and I'm interested to see how it happens and what his deepest motivations are.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
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I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
Not necessarily. We don't know why the Eldrazi end planes. They seem to be a recycling crew: Ulamog turns all matter into that white dust, Kozilek then destroys space-time, and Emrakul creates a new plane. (I swear, throughout Eldritch Moon, I couldn't help but think of Emrakul as a Genesis device.)
If so, then they're attracted to mana because the plane is leaking mana, like blood in the water.
That would mean Amonkhet would be vulnerable to the Eldrazi.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
If so, then they're attracted to mana because the plane is leaking mana, like blood in the water.
This has actually been my pet theory for a whole while now, so I'm glad to see someone else coming to the same conclusion. It'd make sense too, they lured the Eldrazi to Zendikar by leaking mana through a beacon into the blind eternities, emulating a dying plane. Nahiri presumably did the same with Innistrad.
Is he going back to Alara at some point, or is this just non-canon stuff?
I think since this is an Origin story it is going to spotlight the moments when our spotlight PWs had their first significant Bolas engcounter. for Tezz that would be when he was first led to Bolas on Alara.
As to the Eldrazi one, it may have been the weaker storytelling around that time, but it seems to me that keeping entities away from their usual purpose (they were purposefully attracted to Zendikar, away from whatever else they would be doing) for a long period of time (by mortal reckoning) and possibly indefinitely would damage the Multiverse as much as killing them. If they serve a Multiverse purpose, keeping them from that purpose, whether by prison or death, may jeopardize the Multiverse. And as Ugin didn't know too much about them in the first place, that seems an awful risk to take.
Not really (provided he stayed alive to monitor the situation or built systems into the hedron network to do so). If the multiverse showed signs of damage or atrophy while the Eldrazi were imprisoned, Ugin could have them released (using the same argument he wielded to get Nahiri involved in the first place, "more people will suffer and die if you don't").
Given the Eldrazi capacity to live seemingly forever and generally avoid life threatening damage (bar being pulled completely into a world and killed), the effects of their absence might take quite a long time to manifest. Ergo to observe such effects, one needs to keep them from their activities for a long period of time while retaining the capacity to let them free if the need presents itself.
The only issue is that Ugin didn't stay alive (not for lack of trying).
Also a good point.
And again, it may be the storytelling, but if you don't know the purpose of these giant incomprehensible beings, then spending so much time and resources on imprisoning them seems extremely risky. I think before they imprisoned them, the three walkers only knew that the Eldrazi consumed/destroyed planes. If Ugin was such a thinker, why didn't he just watch them while free? What planes did they get drawn to? What are the common qualities? From that kind of observation, you could learn a lot. But in imprisoning them, you only learn what happens if they're not around, which is an additional risk I personally wouldn't attempt.
So my view is clearly subjective. So I can't say anyone else is absolutely wrong when I don't have clearly defined objective facts.
This next bit is purely speculative, so I'm not presenting it as fact. To me, the Eldrazi are as mystical and incomprehensible as the Ur-Dragon. Both can end up 'seeding' planes with things that are similar to them. I'm not saying they're the same, I'm just saying there are some similarities. Ur-Dragon obviously not an Eldrazi. That plus the dragon generating dragonstorms on Tarkir really makes me feel like while Bolas wants to be like a god again, Ugin may want to see if he can become God-god. Like Ur-Dragon level. He's just much quieter and gentler about it. Bolas wants what he feels the Multiverse took from him; Ugin may want the Multiverse. Short-game vs. long-game. And like Bolas, Ugin can freely lie to whoever he wants to achieve his little-by-little ends.
Speculation, but that would be a heck of a shocker for the Gatewatch. But I don't know if Wizards will want to double up on bad guy dragons.
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
Not necessarily. We don't know why the Eldrazi end planes. They seem to be a recycling crew: Ulamog turns all matter into that white dust, Kozilek then destroys space-time, and Emrakul creates a new plane. (I swear, throughout Eldritch Moon, I couldn't help but think of Emrakul as a Genesis device.)
If so, then they're attracted to mana because the plane is leaking mana, like blood in the water.
That would mean Amonkhet would be vulnerable to the Eldrazi.
Well sure but if you are a native of the plane it is not good news for you when the Titans show up...
If Ugin was such a thinker, why didn't he just watch them while free? What planes did they get drawn to? What are the common qualities? From that kind of observation, you could learn a lot.
Yes, you could learn a lot. As you pointed out, you could learn what qualities draw them to planes. One only wonders what you could accomplish with that information. You could lure them to a plane of your choosing if you knew that.
Suppose then that your studies reveal some insight into how they 'reach into' a plane to feed. Knowing that, one could theoretically design a method of trapping them on a certain plane.
After enough studying, however, you'll eventually hit a roadblock. You'll know a lot about them, what they do, when and where they'll do it, and how they are able to do it, but not necessarily why they do it or what effect this has on the overall multiverse since you're only studying the default state. To truly know their function, taking them out temporarily (potentially permanently) is a simple application of the scientific method.
Humans apply similar, though more permanent, methodology when it comes to understanding gene function. A very effective and simple method of learning a gene's function is to render it nonfunctional in a test animal and study what happens. It's very effective, though not all that kind to the test animal. You often can't reactivate a gene you've knocked out and turning off many genes result in rather nasty health effects. Understanding this, I find Ugin's built-in failsafes to release the Eldrazi and unwillingness to kill them to be the most cautious and ethical (if you kill them and they performed a necessary function you've doomed everyone, while letting them roam free lets them continue to cause potentially unnecessary harm to the denizens of many planes) approach to dealing with them.
That being said, it's a particularly longsighted view of ethics and priorities that lends Ugin to care less about diverging from what is ethically 'right' in the short term if it means accomplishing a 'greater good' in the long term. To utilize the trolley problem, I don't think Ugin would hesitate to push a man into the path of a runaway trolley if doing so meant the trolley would stop before it killed the five people in its path. Equally, I could just as well see him being the kind of guy to pull a random person off the street to kill if their organs could save the lives of five others. As such, I wouldn't call him nice by any means.
How do we know Ugin didn't do any observations beforehand he is what 25,000+ Years Old?
But yeah separation from normals and such morality is standard for Oldwalkers. I mean Freyalise and Teferi were trading Radha back and forth like she was a magic card...I say Dominaria Oldwalkers ended up more sane for the most part because there were a lot of them around along with assorted other immortals to interact with. Probably much the same for Sorin with all the vampires around. We saw being alone for long periods did not help Nahiri's sanity at all.
Granted I still think Ugin is overall a net good for the multiverse. There is nothing in his record that suggest he is especially evil...he does like Balance though so I guess he could go Full Thanos. Perfectly Balanced As All Things Should Be.
Granted I still think Ugin is overall a net good for the multiverse. There is nothing in his record that suggest he is especially evil...he does like Balance though so I guess he could go Full Thanos. Perfectly Balanced As All Things Should Be.
This is my general feeling about Ugin as well.
Given what we currently know of him I think that he's a more-or-less well meaning, Big Picture guy... but his extreme longevity and detached point of view could easily lead towards seemingly cruel "greater good" actions that lead others to view him as villainous and throw him into conflict with protagonists that are more relatable to a human point of view.
Do we already know what the round thing hovering between Bolas' horns is? (I'm fairly sure it's not a Gem of Becoming. The gem is probably just modeled after the thing.) Because in his M19 artwork, Nicol Bolas, the Arisen, he is shown above the Talon gates, which MIGHT imply he's shown right after his ascension fighting the demonic leviathan. This in turn would imply that he's had that floaty thing for a while now, unless they pulled an Urza's Ruinous Blast on us again.
Im pretty curious now about how Bolas "arose" to planeswalker status. His flip card gives us nothing to go by unless just gaining mana allows you to spark. Did he defeat the Leviathan Planeswalker and steal his spark and Gem?? Does the gem itself grant planeswalker status and he found it somewhere??
The other flip walkers seems to flavorize their condition to flip based on their story of sparking but Bolas is just a mana cost. Seems odd.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Im pretty curious now about how Bolas "arose" to planeswalker status. His flip card gives us nothing to go by unless just gaining mana allows you to spark. Did he defeat the Leviathan Planeswalker and steal his spark and Gem?? Does the gem itself grant planeswalker status and he found it somewhere??
The other flip walkers seems to flavorize their condition to flip based on their story of sparking but Bolas is just a mana cost. Seems odd.
If I'm not mistaken he literally deovured the leviathan.
Im pretty curious now about how Bolas "arose" to planeswalker status. His flip card gives us nothing to go by unless just gaining mana allows you to spark. Did he defeat the Leviathan Planeswalker and steal his spark and Gem?? Does the gem itself grant planeswalker status and he found it somewhere??
That's an interesting thought, and I'll follow it up with another. If Bolas's spark wasn't originally his, but stolen somehow (*note) during his fight with the leviathan through some arcane means, then perhaps whatever trick he pulled back then is relevant to whatever he's now planning on Ravnica.
(*Note) We're still not at all clear on how spark transfer works. Yawgmoth's vivisection of Dyphed implied that it wasn't a physical element that could be transplanted, but Venser's sacrifice give us clear precedent for that exact thing happening. In any case, it seems to follow that if sparks can be given, then they can be stolen. And in fact, that's exactly what Memnarch's Ascension Web did to Glissa.
I did a recorded reading on the story and after hearing the story for hours, with several minutes per sentence, and it really struck me how many parallels they had between the sets of twins. If we decide to infer more about the dragons based on the inner thoughts of Naiva, we could conclude that Bolas likely cares about his people, but will abandon the closest family if it means survival. I am sure other people saw this immediately, but I have always been a Bolas supporter saying that he lost godhood and is freaking out trying to get it back. It isn't justified from our perspective, but it could easily be from his. I see his mindset closer to the eldrazi than ours. I don't think he sees (or at least saw, depending on how the story modifies him) what he does as anything other than necessary to regain his godhood.
On a related note, I am unsure if it is worth me continuing the recorded reading of the story. My goal is to show that the story is awesome to more people (even if it is only to my small channel). If anyone would like to give me some constructive criticism, I'd appreciate it as I decide what to do with it. Thanks. This is the video
Im pretty curious now about how Bolas "arose" to planeswalker status. His flip card gives us nothing to go by unless just gaining mana allows you to spark. Did he defeat the Leviathan Planeswalker and steal his spark and Gem?? Does the gem itself grant planeswalker status and he found it somewhere??
That's an interesting thought, and I'll follow it up with another. If Bolas's spark wasn't originally his, but stolen somehow (*note) during his fight with the leviathan through some arcane means, then perhaps whatever trick he pulled back then is relevant to whatever he's now planning on Ravnica.
(*Note) We're still not at all clear on how spark transfer works. Yawgmoth's vivisection of Dyphed implied that it wasn't a physical element that could be transplanted, but Venser's sacrifice give us clear precedent for that exact thing happening. In any case, it seems to follow that if sparks can be given, then they can be stolen. And in fact, that's exactly what Memnarch's Ascension Web did to Glissa.
Not really seems more to be a Spark can be given but it cannot be stolen ie those we have seen actively trying to steal a spark never actually got the spark they tried to steal. We have seen Yawgmoth and Memnarch both try to steal a spark and come up empty. Whereas Slobad and Karn picked up sparks from their friends.
As for genetics twins seems to both get Sparks as shown by Bolas & Ugin and The Kenriths.
Years back I once broached the topic of Bolas trying to steal walker sparks to regain his godhood. At the time, I was informed by several other fellow forum folks that the new spark grants only the ability to traverse planes, with no innate power of its own. We debated back and forth, but the outcome was that Bolas would be unlikely to be going for that, since it would be unlikely that taking in several more sparks would do anything.
But the question as to whether Bolas and Ugin both had sparks from the beginning or if they took them brings this issue back up. I think the most likely thing is that Bolas and Ugin both were born with sparks (also, I thought all the Elder Dragons could traverse planes? Admittedly, I don't know a lot about their history). But if Bolas can start stealing sparks, what would be the purpose if not to empower himself? And why trap walkers on Ravnica if not to bleed their sparks dry or something?
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
If so, then they're attracted to mana because the plane is leaking mana, like blood in the water.
This has actually been my pet theory for a whole while now, so I'm glad to see someone else coming to the same conclusion. It'd make sense too, they lured the Eldrazi to Zendikar by leaking mana through a beacon into the blind eternities, emulating a dying plane. Nahiri presumably did the same with Innistrad.
Yeah! This was my thought too, I even had a whole article on it that has now disappeared with a small article site. I'll see if I can wayback machine it.
Is he going back to Alara at some point, or is this just non-canon stuff?
I think that's just the planeswalker deck version, which looks like his Agent of Bolas era outfit, the art we've seen for the pack version has him looking more recent.
Im pretty curious now about how Bolas "arose" to planeswalker status. His flip card gives us nothing to go by unless just gaining mana allows you to spark. Did he defeat the Leviathan Planeswalker and steal his spark and Gem?? Does the gem itself grant planeswalker status and he found it somewhere??
The other flip walkers seems to flavorize their condition to flip based on their story of sparking but Bolas is just a mana cost. Seems odd.
If I'm not mistaken he literally deovured the leviathan.
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
If so, then they're attracted to mana because the plane is leaking mana, like blood in the water.
This has actually been my pet theory for a whole while now, so I'm glad to see someone else coming to the same conclusion. It'd make sense too, they lured the Eldrazi to Zendikar by leaking mana through a beacon into the blind eternities, emulating a dying plane. Nahiri presumably did the same with Innistrad.
Yeah! This was my thought too, I even had a whole article on it that has now disappeared with a small article site. I'll see if I can wayback machine it.
Is he going back to Alara at some point, or is this just non-canon stuff?
I think that's just the planeswalker deck version, which looks like his Agent of Bolas era outfit, the art we've seen for the pack version has him looking more recent.
Im pretty curious now about how Bolas "arose" to planeswalker status. His flip card gives us nothing to go by unless just gaining mana allows you to spark. Did he defeat the Leviathan Planeswalker and steal his spark and Gem?? Does the gem itself grant planeswalker status and he found it somewhere??
The other flip walkers seems to flavorize their condition to flip based on their story of sparking but Bolas is just a mana cost. Seems odd.
If I'm not mistaken he literally deovured the leviathan.
Wasn't he reborn on Madara near the Talon gates? I wonder if that place will play a role for him again in the future (assuming he hopefully isn't killed by the younglings).
Wasn't he reborn on Madara near the Talon gates? I wonder if that place will play a role for him again in the future (assuming he hopefully isn't killed by the younglings).
Yep, he was killed and reborn on Madara near the Talon Gates.
Am I missing something, or is it weird that Wizards put out a card "The Eldest Reborn" for Bolas, and then in the next set story he's described as being one of, if not the, youngest elder dragons (along with Ugin)?
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Bolas was trapped, Ugin wasn't. If Bolas made a sound and caught their attention, Ugin was free to (clumsily) fly away. As such, Ugin's life was only ever at the most minor risk (even if Bolas made a sound before being freed). So it is pretty clear that Ugin wasn't acting entirely selfishly (he might have wanted to save his sibling to ensure his own safety with numbers).
That being said, it's open to debate as to why Ugin chose to try and save Bolas over Merevia Sal. Proximity? Closer relationship? Coldly calculated inability for runt Ugin and Merevia to overpower the hunters?
Trapping doesn't quite ruin their purpose (if they have one) as much as killing does. One can release a trapped entity, while killing (generally) can't be undone (should disastrous side effects ensue).
Both fair points. As to the Eldrazi one, it may have been the weaker storytelling around that time, but it seems to me that keeping entities away from their usual purpose (they were purposefully attracted to Zendikar, away from whatever else they would be doing) for a long period of time (by mortal reckoning) and possibly indefinitely would damage the Multiverse as much as killing them. If they serve a Multiverse purpose, keeping them from that purpose, whether by prison or death, may jeopardize the Multiverse. And as Ugin didn't know too much about them in the first place, that seems an awful risk to take.
Not really (provided he stayed alive to monitor the situation or built systems into the hedron network to do so). If the multiverse showed signs of damage or atrophy while the Eldrazi were imprisoned, Ugin could have them released (using the same argument he wielded to get Nahiri involved in the first place, "more people will suffer and die if you don't").
Given the Eldrazi capacity to live seemingly forever and generally avoid life threatening damage (bar being pulled completely into a world and killed), the effects of their absence might take quite a long time to manifest. Ergo to observe such effects, one needs to keep them from their activities for a long period of time while retaining the capacity to let them free if the need presents itself.
The only issue is that Ugin didn't stay alive (not for lack of trying).
Baby Bolas is ironically an example of Good Guy Grixis, or the colors manifesting their best qualities together. We see in this story a Bolas who is clever and reflective (blue), passionate and inclined to action (red), and self preserving and pragmatic (black). It will be interesting to see how he falls into Grixis' worst aspects. We see a bit of it in this story, his musing that it it's better to hunt than be hunted, which foreshadows his willingness to commit cruelty to get what he wants but also suggests that pursuit of mere survival may be what pushes him down that path. His sadism also shows up with his enjoyment of killing the dogs, which goes a bit beyond a predator enjoying the flavor of it's prey. Still, he's not locked into the villain role at this point, and I'm interested to see how it happens and what his deepest motivations are.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Not necessarily. We don't know why the Eldrazi end planes. They seem to be a recycling crew: Ulamog turns all matter into that white dust, Kozilek then destroys space-time, and Emrakul creates a new plane. (I swear, throughout Eldritch Moon, I couldn't help but think of Emrakul as a Genesis device.)
If so, then they're attracted to mana because the plane is leaking mana, like blood in the water.
That would mean Amonkhet would be vulnerable to the Eldrazi.
On phasing:
This has actually been my pet theory for a whole while now, so I'm glad to see someone else coming to the same conclusion. It'd make sense too, they lured the Eldrazi to Zendikar by leaking mana through a beacon into the blind eternities, emulating a dying plane. Nahiri presumably did the same with Innistrad.
Is he going back to Alara at some point, or is this just non-canon stuff?
I think since this is an Origin story it is going to spotlight the moments when our spotlight PWs had their first significant Bolas engcounter. for Tezz that would be when he was first led to Bolas on Alara.
Click the pic for more info.
Also a good point.
And again, it may be the storytelling, but if you don't know the purpose of these giant incomprehensible beings, then spending so much time and resources on imprisoning them seems extremely risky. I think before they imprisoned them, the three walkers only knew that the Eldrazi consumed/destroyed planes. If Ugin was such a thinker, why didn't he just watch them while free? What planes did they get drawn to? What are the common qualities? From that kind of observation, you could learn a lot. But in imprisoning them, you only learn what happens if they're not around, which is an additional risk I personally wouldn't attempt.
So my view is clearly subjective. So I can't say anyone else is absolutely wrong when I don't have clearly defined objective facts.
This next bit is purely speculative, so I'm not presenting it as fact. To me, the Eldrazi are as mystical and incomprehensible as the Ur-Dragon. Both can end up 'seeding' planes with things that are similar to them. I'm not saying they're the same, I'm just saying there are some similarities. Ur-Dragon obviously not an Eldrazi. That plus the dragon generating dragonstorms on Tarkir really makes me feel like while Bolas wants to be like a god again, Ugin may want to see if he can become God-god. Like Ur-Dragon level. He's just much quieter and gentler about it. Bolas wants what he feels the Multiverse took from him; Ugin may want the Multiverse. Short-game vs. long-game. And like Bolas, Ugin can freely lie to whoever he wants to achieve his little-by-little ends.
Speculation, but that would be a heck of a shocker for the Gatewatch. But I don't know if Wizards will want to double up on bad guy dragons.
Affinity
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Commander
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
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Gishath, Sun's Avatar
The Ur-Dragon
Well sure but if you are a native of the plane it is not good news for you when the Titans show up...
Yes, you could learn a lot. As you pointed out, you could learn what qualities draw them to planes. One only wonders what you could accomplish with that information. You could lure them to a plane of your choosing if you knew that.
Suppose then that your studies reveal some insight into how they 'reach into' a plane to feed. Knowing that, one could theoretically design a method of trapping them on a certain plane.
After enough studying, however, you'll eventually hit a roadblock. You'll know a lot about them, what they do, when and where they'll do it, and how they are able to do it, but not necessarily why they do it or what effect this has on the overall multiverse since you're only studying the default state. To truly know their function, taking them out temporarily (potentially permanently) is a simple application of the scientific method.
Humans apply similar, though more permanent, methodology when it comes to understanding gene function. A very effective and simple method of learning a gene's function is to render it nonfunctional in a test animal and study what happens. It's very effective, though not all that kind to the test animal. You often can't reactivate a gene you've knocked out and turning off many genes result in rather nasty health effects. Understanding this, I find Ugin's built-in failsafes to release the Eldrazi and unwillingness to kill them to be the most cautious and ethical (if you kill them and they performed a necessary function you've doomed everyone, while letting them roam free lets them continue to cause potentially unnecessary harm to the denizens of many planes) approach to dealing with them.
That being said, it's a particularly longsighted view of ethics and priorities that lends Ugin to care less about diverging from what is ethically 'right' in the short term if it means accomplishing a 'greater good' in the long term. To utilize the trolley problem, I don't think Ugin would hesitate to push a man into the path of a runaway trolley if doing so meant the trolley would stop before it killed the five people in its path. Equally, I could just as well see him being the kind of guy to pull a random person off the street to kill if their organs could save the lives of five others. As such, I wouldn't call him nice by any means.
But yeah separation from normals and such morality is standard for Oldwalkers. I mean Freyalise and Teferi were trading Radha back and forth like she was a magic card...I say Dominaria Oldwalkers ended up more sane for the most part because there were a lot of them around along with assorted other immortals to interact with. Probably much the same for Sorin with all the vampires around. We saw being alone for long periods did not help Nahiri's sanity at all.
Granted I still think Ugin is overall a net good for the multiverse. There is nothing in his record that suggest he is especially evil...he does like Balance though so I guess he could go Full Thanos. Perfectly Balanced As All Things Should Be.
This is my general feeling about Ugin as well.
Given what we currently know of him I think that he's a more-or-less well meaning, Big Picture guy... but his extreme longevity and detached point of view could easily lead towards seemingly cruel "greater good" actions that lead others to view him as villainous and throw him into conflict with protagonists that are more relatable to a human point of view.
Do we already know what the round thing hovering between Bolas' horns is? (I'm fairly sure it's not a Gem of Becoming. The gem is probably just modeled after the thing.) Because in his M19 artwork, Nicol Bolas, the Arisen, he is shown above the Talon gates, which MIGHT imply he's shown right after his ascension fighting the demonic leviathan. This in turn would imply that he's had that floaty thing for a while now, unless they pulled an Urza's Ruinous Blast on us again.
The other flip walkers seems to flavorize their condition to flip based on their story of sparking but Bolas is just a mana cost. Seems odd.
If I'm not mistaken he literally deovured the leviathan.
That's an interesting thought, and I'll follow it up with another. If Bolas's spark wasn't originally his, but stolen somehow (*note) during his fight with the leviathan through some arcane means, then perhaps whatever trick he pulled back then is relevant to whatever he's now planning on Ravnica.
(*Note) We're still not at all clear on how spark transfer works. Yawgmoth's vivisection of Dyphed implied that it wasn't a physical element that could be transplanted, but Venser's sacrifice give us clear precedent for that exact thing happening. In any case, it seems to follow that if sparks can be given, then they can be stolen. And in fact, that's exactly what Memnarch's Ascension Web did to Glissa.
On a related note, I am unsure if it is worth me continuing the recorded reading of the story. My goal is to show that the story is awesome to more people (even if it is only to my small channel). If anyone would like to give me some constructive criticism, I'd appreciate it as I decide what to do with it. Thanks. This is the video
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
Cockatrice: shadowkill
Rules Adviser
Not really seems more to be a Spark can be given but it cannot be stolen ie those we have seen actively trying to steal a spark never actually got the spark they tried to steal. We have seen Yawgmoth and Memnarch both try to steal a spark and come up empty. Whereas Slobad and Karn picked up sparks from their friends.
As for genetics twins seems to both get Sparks as shown by Bolas & Ugin and The Kenriths.
But the question as to whether Bolas and Ugin both had sparks from the beginning or if they took them brings this issue back up. I think the most likely thing is that Bolas and Ugin both were born with sparks (also, I thought all the Elder Dragons could traverse planes? Admittedly, I don't know a lot about their history). But if Bolas can start stealing sparks, what would be the purpose if not to empower himself? And why trap walkers on Ravnica if not to bleed their sparks dry or something?
I neeeeed more Elder Dragon stories!
Edit: Here it is.
I think that's just the planeswalker deck version, which looks like his Agent of Bolas era outfit, the art we've seen for the pack version has him looking more recent.
Yeah, the bones are what formed the Talon Gates, which can be seen behind him in Nicol Bolas, the Arisen. It's the same scene as The Eldest Reborn.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Wasn't he reborn on Madara near the Talon gates? I wonder if that place will play a role for him again in the future (assuming he hopefully isn't killed by the younglings).
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
Cockatrice: shadowkill
Rules Adviser
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath