So as we all know as of late, lore usually follows the cards that have been released in the sets. Given that we've seen cards like Settle the Score and In Bolas's Clutches it seems Liliana will kill Bezenlok and afterward, her contract will be in "default" and she will be given an ultimatum to serve Nicol Bolas or die.
Having said that, will she kill any main characters or a member of the Gatewatch? Betray Bolas and die to save someone? Simply decide to live and Planeswalk away to fight her former allies in the future?
I'm just curious as to how you think the story will play out at that point.
We can be sure Liliana will not die. She is to popular so wizards is not going to trow here away soon.
Also Liliana can not save a life with the cost of here own because she thinks the only life that counts is here own.
So my prediction is that she will go with bolas and stay with him unthil the story of Bolas ends or is interrupted.
Meanwhile Liliana is not going to be a good slave to bolas because she will not kill off one of the gatewatch because of that tiny piece of good still left inside of here.
First, the word is "her", not "here".
Second, we don't know how much Liliana's attitude will change later on. It's entirely possible that her selfishness will dwindle just enough to include the Gatewatch in the list of people she wants to protect.
With Jace’s appearance and treatment of her it seems to me like they’re trying to make us feel sorry for her. When he asks Gideon and Chandra to go, she speaks up about being excluded and is upset after the whole exchange. Obviously we know Bolas is coming for her and for Lili, who cares about her ‘friends’ in her own way, that’s gonna sting, never mind that it proves Jace right even if she doesn’t know about the Bolas clause in her contracts.
It’s a move towards some character development that will probably end with her sacrificing herself, either willingly or unwillinglgly, like you said, for the GW or at least doing something that regains Jace’s trust and the rest of the gang’s. I don’t think any of these guys can blame her for going with him because they all essentially did the same back on Amonkhet, but Jace and Anissa probably still will.
Yeah they are trying make us feel bad for Lili but I really cannot.
She is Angel slaying, human mass murdering monster. Yeah Yeah she was tricked into killing her brother but really parents never taught her to trust strangers? She is attractive sure but her being on the Gatewatch never made sense to me in the first place. She is evil and she was not Anti-Bolas (if anything until Bolas screws her she should be pro Bolas) and no stopping Emrakul because its her preferred plane does not a hero make. Evil is not one big happy family.
She is dumb and lazy. The fact that she never reads the goddamn fine print on any deals she makes means I cannot feel bad for her. She has no foresight and always tries to take the easy way out. I mean sheesh Razaketh even tells her she didn't read the fine print she keeps on trucking along barely considering it. So again the Gatewatch being mean to her doesn't hurt me at all because really they never should have let her into the circle in the first place.
Bolas’s goal isn’t to kill the Gatewatch. He could’ve killed them on Amonkhet and decided not to. Bolas’s goal in in Ravnica. My guess is he will try and make Lily a guild leader, just like Vraska so he can control another guild. Maybe he’ll have Vraska run the Golgari, Ral run the Izzit, Tezzeret run the Dimir, and he’ll have Lily run the Orzhov while Bolas runs the Rakdos. They could split up Ravnica blocks by having one block be Bolas forces of Izzit + the 4 Black guilds, and the other block be the other 5 guilds as the anti-Bolas forces, along with the Gatewatch. Then, when Vraska “betrays” Bolas I expect Lily to join in.
I see Lily as a Walter White/Vic Mackey type character. She does evil things, she does good things, she’s selfish, and she makes mistakes but is can also be incredibly powerful.
I don’t feel bad either. It seems like they’ve forgotten all that other crappy stuff she’s done, like what you mentioned. If anything it just makes Jace and the rest of them, but especially Jace, into hypocrites because they say they don’t trust her but are still using her to do whatever it is they wanna do. No one really cares about helping her end her contracts (except Jace, but that’s changed) but they still help her do all this without knowing much about the veil and what it could do to her, only that it could help them kill Bolas. She’s getting the same treatment she gives and that’s fair lol
I don’t feel bad either. It seems like they’ve forgotten all that other crappy stuff she’s done, like what you mentioned. If anything it just makes Jace and the rest of them, but especially Jace, into hypocrites because they say they don’t trust her but are still using her to do whatever it is they wanna do. No one really cares about helping her end her contracts (except Jace, but that’s changed) but they still help her do all this without knowing much about the veil and what it could do to her, only that it could help them kill Bolas. She’s getting the same treatment she gives and that’s fair lol
Yeah Jace looks bad...he was fine with Lili when she was evil and manipulative and he wanted to sleep with her but now that he is got a new gf suddenly he is concerned about Lili manipulating the group?
I don’t feel bad either. It seems like they’ve forgotten all that other crappy stuff she’s done, like what you mentioned. If anything it just makes Jace and the rest of them, but especially Jace, into hypocrites because they say they don’t trust her but are still using her to do whatever it is they wanna do. No one really cares about helping her end her contracts (except Jace, but that’s changed) but they still help her do all this without knowing much about the veil and what it could do to her, only that it could help them kill Bolas. She’s getting the same treatment she gives and that’s fair lol
Yeah Jace looks bad...he was fine with Lili when she was evil and manipulative and he wanted to sleep with her but now that he is got a new gf suddenly he is concerned about Lili manipulating the group?
He was vulnerable and fell into an abusive relationship. He kept wanting to see the good in her, and she was one of the few personal connections he had. She cultivated this, like abusers do, by gaslighting him (super easy since he doesn't trust his own amnesiac memory) and making him feel worthless and dependant on her. It's not just that Jace actually found a real, healthy connection with Vrask, its that he's finally clear eyed about what Liliana is, how she operates, and his own value as a person.
She IS like Walter White, I agree. She can be charming and entertaining, and you can feel for her and want to root for her, but she is a terrible, abusive person who causes most of her own problems, and has always been concerned with gaining power.
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Yeah they are trying make us feel bad for Lili but I really cannot.
She is Angel slaying, human mass murdering monster. Yeah Yeah she was tricked into killing her brother but really parents never taught her to trust strangers? She is attractive sure but her being on the Gatewatch never made sense to me in the first place. She is evil and she was not Anti-Bolas (if anything until Bolas screws her she should be pro Bolas) and no stopping Emrakul because its her preferred plane does not a hero make. Evil is not one big happy family.
She is dumb and lazy. The fact that she never reads the goddamn fine print on any deals she makes means I cannot feel bad for her. She has no foresight and always tries to take the easy way out. I mean sheesh Razaketh even tells her she didn't read the fine print she keeps on trucking along barely considering it. So again the Gatewatch being mean to her doesn't hurt me at all because really they never should have let her into the circle in the first place.
Thank you.
I feel like the only reason why Wizards choose Liliana to be a part of the gatewatch instead of creating a new character for the role was simply because players liked the sexy necromancer stereotype, i challenge anyone in this forum to give me 3 reasons why they would allow Liliana to be a part of a super-hero group.
Hell if i was a member of the gatewatch i would have at the very least arrested her ass back on Innistrad.
I don’t feel bad either. It seems like they’ve forgotten all that other crappy stuff she’s done, like what you mentioned. If anything it just makes Jace and the rest of them, but especially Jace, into hypocrites because they say they don’t trust her but are still using her to do whatever it is they wanna do. No one really cares about helping her end her contracts (except Jace, but that’s changed) but they still help her do all this without knowing much about the veil and what it could do to her, only that it could help them kill Bolas. She’s getting the same treatment she gives and that’s fair lol
Yeah Jace looks bad...he was fine with Lili when she was evil and manipulative and he wanted to sleep with her but now that he is got a new gf suddenly he is concerned about Lili manipulating the group?
Because Jace was previously in an abusive relationship with Liliana. He is warning Chandra and Gideon that she shouldn't be trusted, she manipulates and abuses people to get what she wants.
Did you read the same RIX? Did you read same stuff before IXA? Jace literally had the symptoms of someone in an abusive relationship until Ixalan.
Withdrawn or Unusually Quiet (A person who was once chatty and gregarious who is suddenly quiet, reserved and distant, could be an abuse victim.)
Describes abuser as "moody" or having a "bad temper."
Lack of Sleep
Low Self-Esteem
Extremely apologetic or meek
Agitation, anxiety, or constant apprehension
Symptoms of Depression.
The illusion shattered, then vanished, leaving the rush of the waterfall and the shimmering gold of Orazca in its wake.
Vraska's perception was wavering, and everything had an artificial glint to it, as if the accidental illusions were smearing across reality even now. Her hands were still gripping the mud of the riverbank, physically clinging to what was real.
"Jace, you're safe and all right, but I need you to make an illusion so our crew can find us."
But Jace was still unreachable. His eyes remained bright with magic, and strength had not returned to his limbs. Vraska could see his chest rise and fall with each shuddering breath. He inhaled sharply as another wave of memory washed over him, then went utterly still in response to whatever he was seeing, his lips parted in shock.
The light above them dimmed as an illusion of this new memory coalesced into being, bringing with it the weight of dusk and the scent of too-ripe apples.
Vraska found herself in a small bedroom with bare walls and two chairs in front of the fire. She wasn't sure what plane she was on, but that was irrelevant. This room was a world unto itself, the furniture its continents, the rug its ocean, as if nothing outside of the space mattered. Dust clung to the windowsill, and a half-empty basket of fruit sat by the door, boasting a collection of bruised apples. Jace was there, naturally, and his face was lit by the cozy-looking fire. The texture of the memory was velvety and welcoming, but Vraska saw no joy in the scene.
Jace was seated in front of the fire, across from a woman in violet.
Everything about the woman's body language exuded boredom, but Jace was leaning forward, rapt with interest. Vraska felt deeply uncomfortable. This was an intimate moment. She was not meant to see this.
"I never want to play chess again," Jace said, rubbing his temples.
The woman regarded him with intense disinterest. "Chess is tedious," she said in dull agreement.
Jace's cloak was hanging on the coatrack. His shoes were drying by the fire. Vraska knew she shouldn't watch, yet she knew she couldn't leave.
Jace's left index finger was tapping a rapid, unconscious rhythm on his thigh. His voice was tentative. Uncertain. "What you said back on Innistrad, about when I die . . ."
The woman's long hair tumbled over half of her face. Her lipstick was end-of-the-day faded and her eyes betrayed an indifference that Vraska prayed this version of Jace would notice.
"You remember that conversation?"
"Hard to forget a conversation like that," said Jace. "You don't meddle in sentiment unless you mean it. So . . . did you mean it?"
"What?"
He paused, cautious. "Will you be sad when I die?"
Jace was looking at the woman in violet attentively. Expectantly. Vraska's stomach lurched at the strangeness of the question. He had asked it as if he was unsure, even though the context of the moment around him implied that he and this woman were more than acquaintances.
The woman in violet looked Jace in the eye, lids heavy, knees resting to the side. "I expect so," she said. A half sentiment. A bone for the dog. "What we had, whatever you want to call it . . . it's worth that much, at least."
Vraska's mouth hung open. That's it? The woman's cruel dismissal of an honest plea for affection told Vraska everything she needed to know about her. Vraska's tendrils knotted in discomfort, but she couldn't look away from this poor man, this woman, this dreadful little room.
"I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me," Jace replied.
The woman in violet laughed. As though it were a joke. As though he hadn't said it with a desperate yearning for her approval written plainly on his face.
Vraska felt like a home invader. This domestic play of profound imbalance wasn't meant for her to see.
"You should go back. The others will notice if you don't come home tonight," said the woman.
Jace shrugged. "It's just past sunset. I've got time."
"Oh." The woman looked Jace over, visibly weighing some decision in her mind.
She stood up suddenly and crossed the room toward her vanity. Vraska sidestepped her and watched as the woman opened a drawer. She pulled out a bottle and two glasses and returned to the fireside, deftly uncorking the decanter with one swift motion. "What should we drink to?" she asked.
You don't pour a glass for someone you want to leave, Vraska thought as her stomach dropped.
Jace was smiling. "A toast, to Emrakul," he quipped, "for doing our job for us."
The woman lifted her half-filled glass and clinked it against his.
They both drank deeply.
She refilled their glasses to the brim.
They drank in silence.
The fire crackled in the hearth.
Vraska couldn't take her eyes off the other woman. For someone who hated chess, she sure looked at Jace with the icy scrutiny of a grand master.
At last the woman in violet decided her play, disguising her probe with a lethargic sip from her glass. "Have you seen anyone since?" Vraska could hear the weight implied in that "since." The designation, the shared knowledge. "You got along well with the moonfolk woman," she added deliberately. Pawn to E4.
The game behind the statement made Vraska want to claw her way out of the room.
Jace swirled the liquid in his glass and his demeanor suddenly shifted. He glanced up at the woman in violet. "She's married."
"Is she?" the woman said, superficially pleased at the revelation. She knew full well how aggressive her opening move had been. Knight to F3.
Jace's nodded. "She was a scholar. Morally ambiguous. Married, and not what I'm looking for even if she weren't."
The woman in violet was watching him closely.
"And what are you looking for?" she asked.
She's manipulating you into staying, Vraska wanted to scream. You're smart. She doesn't reciprocate your feelings. Don't fall for this.
Jace leaned back in his chair and stared at her over his glass. With great trepidation and an uncharacteristic absence of logic, his answer fluttered out. "This isn't so bad."
Vraska's heart ached. This was so bad, but he was too far lost to pull back the curtain of affection and see the bored cruelty of her intentions.
"This is just two old acquaintances, relaxing after a victory," the woman responded. "Reminiscing about the good old days."
Jace absently tugged on his right glove. "Those days weren't all good."
"We weren't, either," the woman said in a hushed, dangerous tone.
In a moment, the game transformed, chessboard tossed on the floor, metaphorical dice on the table. She was a gambler, floating an offer for one more round, one more bet, just for the hell of it, c'mon, fellas, what's the worst that could happen.
"We're not together," the woman in violet added. "But you don't have to leave just yet."
Jace looked up from his drink and met her gaze with a hopeful look.
The woman topped up both of their glasses and lifted hers. "To new good old days," she said.
To Vraska's relief, the illusion dissolved, and the riverbed returned.
Vraska felt nauseated. Was there anyone in Jace's life who hadn't tried to take advantage of him or his talents?
In that moment, Jace noticed a change within himself. The Jace of Zendikar and Innistrad and Ravnica had a nervous energy about him, persistently bored and disastrously introspective, constantly aware of the chasm of absent memory that was always on his mind's horizon. The Jace without a past was present, alert, comfortable no matter the circumstance and ready to face whatever might come his way. He remembered what it was like to be both, but recognized how much more natural it was to be the latter. In the span of a moment, Jace was surprised at himself, and then realized his earnestness of late, of Ixalan, was not manufactured, nor was his mindfulness something he could only access in a state of amnesia. That was who he had always been. He had just forgotten.
(A memory: his mother, arriving home from a day at work, dressed in her healer's smock, looking out the open window at a storm in the distance with a cup of coffee nestled in her hands and a little smile on her tired face. He heard fat raindrops rattling the tin roof. The air smelled like wet concrete and home.)
Jace smiled. He liked being able to remember his mother.
I hope she is alive, he thought to himself.
"It's gone," Vraska said, breaking the spell.
Jace remembered where he was and released his hold on his illusion.
"You cast that illusion more quickly than I've seen you do it before," she said.
Jace nodded with a tight smile. "I can remember the skills my mentor taught me, now. I learned more from him by the time I was a teenager than I ever did teaching myself."
"So teenage you had more refined technique than adult you?"
"And now current me has the knowledge of both. It's . . . weird."
Vraska looked him in the eye. "You're incredible. You know that, right?"
Jace returned her smile and felt his cheeks warming. "I do my best."
"Well, your best is incredible," Vraska said, turning toward the central tower and approaching a large gate on what appeared to be its back side.
Liliana never told Jace he was incredible.
Liliana would have scoffed. She would have made a dismissive joke, rolled her eyes, and called him a show-off. She would not bother to talk to him for days. She would consume the body of a demon with a crocodile's jaws and laugh over the sound of its flesh tearing off. She would do all sorts of things, but she would never call him incredible.
Planeswalking was a tricky business; it was imperfect, and destinations could usually only be reached if one had been there before. More often than not, traveling to a new plane was achieved by focusing on a familiar Planeswalker. Jace's first instinct was to reach his friends on Dominaria by focusing on Liliana, but the thought of her gave him pause. What he felt for her now wasn't anything resembling affection. It felt more sickly than that. An anemic, old, anxious tether between them that felt more like dread than tenderness. The entire notion of her was unsettling him, so he focused on the others instead.
Eh with the Gatewatch I have trouble telling the difference between character traits and color stereotypes so quiet, lack of sleep, constant apprehension, etc all seem pretty Blue when facing massive threats all the time and trying to hold Ravnica together.
Eh with the Gatewatch I have trouble telling the difference between character traits and color stereotypes so quiet, lack of sleep, constant apprehension, etc all seem pretty Blue when facing massive threats all the time and trying to hold Ravnica together.
Or perhaps you don't really understand the characters beyond their surface portrayal?
at the end of the day they all have blood on their hands. Jace murdered, as far as we know, alhamaret. Gideon's arrogance caused the death of his most beloved friends. Lili has been removing those that oppose her for decades. Even Chandra hasn't exactly held back against some of her aggressors. Nissa was instrumental in releasing the eldrazi to get them off her plane, which killed how thousands or millions?
Sure the difference is intent, but creative has been very clear lili escalates things to self preservation and defense quickly - that's the only variance. She fully intended to save innistrad. She fully intended to kill tezzeret, and even mentioned him torturing Jace as part of her motivation. She wanted to free Josu and clean up her past mistakes.
Where you guys see a weak character I see a great catalyst for character growth and story telling. Lili is pulling the gatewatch out of their comfort zones and progressing growth and story arc for the whole team.
I think she'll go with bolas because she doesn't have a choice. Similar to the end of HoU. Gideon will hate bolas all the more because of it (honestly she doesn't want to be beholden to anyone, she's not being a traitor here), and he's smart enough to see she doesn't want to serve. Chandra may take it personally, but she's flippant and erratic anyway. That'll cool with time. Jace will be reassured in his feelings at the end of RIX and more than likely pursue Vraska. Nissa will probably clean her hands of the whole ordeal. Teferi doesn't have a horse in the race. Karn has bigger fish to fry. Jaya has just recently been introduced again, so I'm not sure what motivates her.
Really though lili is compelling story because the character is dynamic. She's a reflection of past mistakes and those to come. It's compelling to read because you don't know what she's going to do, but you can relate to her. She's much more compelling than Jace to me (and I like Jace) because he has conquered all of his closet skeletons except bolas/tezz and I'm not even sure tezz would stand much of a chance with a mentally intact Jace. I know what Jace is likely to do, even if he does it in interesting ways, the goal is always clear. Same with Gideon. Lili seems the most human in her thought process of the bunch. She's the only one to guard secrets and feel shame for her past. How do you not relate to that? She's vurnable and powerful enough to keep everyone away, or has been until recently.
Lili still has garruk out for her, an unsettled score with tezz (which is going to be interesting since they're both serving bolas), a pact with bolas, now personal beef with at least some of the gatewatch (Jace/Nissa assuming that gid/Chandra forgive her or see that she has no choice in leaving), the chain veil, and the raven man. If anything creative needs to spread the wealth and give some of these past mistakes to other story members because lili has all of them.
Eh with the Gatewatch I have trouble telling the difference between character traits and color stereotypes so quiet, lack of sleep, constant apprehension, etc all seem pretty Blue when facing massive threats all the time and trying to hold Ravnica together.
Or perhaps you don't really understand the characters beyond their surface portrayal?
That is possible but hey I took AP Lit and got an A and a 5 on the Exam this aint exactly Shakespeare. Granted I have a strong anti Gatewatch Bias.
Yeah no not the same. Lili actively goes out of her way to kill people or creatures she doesn't have to. I mean didn't she get her tiara crown or whatever by killing some random Angel cause it was pretty? Has any Gatewatch member done that? Lili's crimes cannot be whitewashed by simply claiming self defense. Its perfectly fine to like evil characters but lets not paint them as saints. Intent matters. So Jace killing his abuser during a duel or Gideon accidentally getting his friends killed are in no way equivalent to Lili's actions. That is a False Equivalence.
I don't particularly think Lili is weak, well Oldwalker wise I do I guess. Mostly, I think she is dumb and getting what she deserves. Now that doesn't mean she cannot be interesting or entertaining, she simply has no business being on a team of supposed Heroes in my book. I don't relate to Lili at all, I don't relate to mass murderers in general especially those to stupid to read the fine print in the deals they make. Doesn't mean she is not entertaining.
Eh with the Gatewatch I have trouble telling the difference between character traits and color stereotypes so quiet, lack of sleep, constant apprehension, etc all seem pretty Blue when facing massive threats all the time and trying to hold Ravnica together.
Or perhaps you don't really understand the characters beyond their surface portrayal?
To be fair, there was a real stretch when the characters really were just their surface portrayals, due to poor writing and characterization. It wasn't until halfway through Shadows block that the quality picked up enough for the story to be able to effectively work in layers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
at the end of the day they all have blood on their hands. Jace murdered, as far as we know, alhamaret. Gideon's arrogance caused the death of his most beloved friends. Lili has been removing those that oppose her for decades. Even Chandra hasn't exactly held back against some of her aggressors. Nissa was instrumental in releasing the eldrazi to get them off her plane, which killed how thousands or millions?
Sure the difference is intent, but creative has been very clear lili escalates things to self preservation and defense quickly - that's the only variance. She fully intended to save innistrad. She fully intended to kill tezzeret, and even mentioned him torturing Jace as part of her motivation. She wanted to free Josu and clean up her past mistakes.
Where you guys see a weak character I see a great catalyst for character growth and story telling. Lili is pulling the gatewatch out of their comfort zones and progressing growth and story arc for the whole team.
I think she'll go with bolas because she doesn't have a choice. Similar to the end of HoU. Gideon will hate bolas all the more because of it (honestly she doesn't want to be beholden to anyone, she's not being a traitor here), and he's smart enough to see she doesn't want to serve. Chandra may take it personally, but she's flippant and erratic anyway. That'll cool with time. Jace will be reassured in his feelings at the end of RIX and more than likely pursue Vraska. Nissa will probably clean her hands of the whole ordeal. Teferi doesn't have a horse in the race. Karn has bigger fish to fry. Jaya has just recently been introduced again, so I'm not sure what motivates her.
Really though lili is compelling story because the character is dynamic. She's a reflection of past mistakes and those to come. It's compelling to read because you don't know what she's going to do, but you can relate to her. She's much more compelling than Jace to me (and I like Jace) because he has conquered all of his closet skeletons except bolas/tezz and I'm not even sure tezz would stand much of a chance with a mentally intact Jace. I know what Jace is likely to do, even if he does it in interesting ways, the goal is always clear. Same with Gideon. Lili seems the most human in her thought process of the bunch. She's the only one to guard secrets and feel shame for her past. How do you not relate to that? She's vurnable and powerful enough to keep everyone away, or has been until recently.
Lili still has garruk out for her, an unsettled score with tezz (which is going to be interesting since they're both serving bolas), a pact with bolas, now personal beef with at least some of the gatewatch (Jace/Nissa assuming that gid/Chandra forgive her or see that she has no choice in leaving), the chain veil, and the raven man. If anything creative needs to spread the wealth and give some of these past mistakes to other story members because lili has all of them.
It's very easy to relate to her, but its also very easy to see that the reason she has so many past mistakes is because she is selfish and power hungry. She has always wanted to take shortcuts and prove that she is better than everyone, to prove that she doesn't need to listen and can figure out a superior way on her own. She doesn't need to be diplomatic, she can blast people with death magic. She doesn't need to heal her brother the old way, the dark arts she's been studying will do it better. She doesn't need to figure out how to trick her demons, she can blast them with the chain veil. She doesn't need to gain genuine allies, she can easily manipulate these weak fools into helping her.
She's a trash person. She's suffering because she has caused her own suffering. She is relatable because she IS very human, but her humanity is mostly in her failings. Occasionally some decent or sentimentality breaks through and she becomes somewhat sympathetic. In the end, she's still a villainess, just as her anagram of a name suggests. She's a bit like MCU Loki, actually.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
@AutumnTwilight: Many have had awful things happen to them in their lives. Some of which in their mistakes committed horrible acts. Nobody is arguing they haven't or weren't. The difference is what they choose to do afterwards.
Yeah no not the same. Lili actively goes out of her way to kill people or creatures she doesn't have to. I mean didn't she get her tiara crown or whatever by killing some random Angel cause it was pretty? Has any Gatewatch member done that?
Nope, but then again, there are two factors to consider:
1.) It's entirely possible the Archangel of Tithes actually started the confrontation, since they detest necromancers like Lili.
2.) Liliana was still relatively godlike at the time, so chances are it'd be difficult for any Gatewatch member to do that now by themselves.
Still, even with godlike Oldwalker power, I doubt Nissa, Jace, Chandra, Gids, Ajani or Teferi would do anything of the sort. Also, there's definitely no excuse for what she did at the Helvault, which was one of the more prominent examples of her cruelty.
@AutumnTwilight: Many have had awful things happen to them in their lives. Some of which in their mistakes committed horrible acts. Nobody is arguing they haven't or weren't. The difference is what they choose to do afterwards.
Not sure what your point is. Lili killing her brother is a mistake, I will agree. But I don't think the vast majority of Lili's acts post that are innocent mistakes where she just accidentally killed people and creatures or it was always self defense. So yeah she started with some degree of tragedy but such tragedy doesn't justify her behavior after that to me.
Yeah no not the same. Lili actively goes out of her way to kill people or creatures she doesn't have to. I mean didn't she get her tiara crown or whatever by killing some random Angel cause it was pretty? Has any Gatewatch member done that?
Nope, but then again, there are two factors to consider:
1.) It's entirely possible the Archangel of Tithes actually started the confrontation, since they detest necromancers like Lili.
2.) Liliana was still relatively godlike at the time, so chances are it'd be difficult for any Gatewatch member to do that now by themselves.
Still, even with godlike Oldwalker power, I doubt Nissa, Jace, Chandra, Gids, Ajani or Teferi would do anything of the sort. Also, there's definitely no excuse for what she did at the Helvault, which was one of the more prominent examples of her cruelty.
Well for Teferi we really don't have to speculate, we know what he did as an Oldwalker. At worst Teferi was similar to Nissa ie Zhalfir (Zendikar) or Sorin (Innistrad) First. And a bit too loose with playing around with time granted no one knew about Time Rifts at the time. And my plane or country first was standard practice on Dominaria anyway.
Eh with the Gatewatch I have trouble telling the difference between character traits and color stereotypes so quiet, lack of sleep, constant apprehension, etc all seem pretty Blue when facing massive threats all the time and trying to hold Ravnica together.
Or perhaps you don't really understand the characters beyond their surface portrayal?
That is possible but hey I took AP Lit and got an A and a 5 on the Exam this aint exactly Shakespeare. Granted I have a strong anti Gatewatch Bias.
Yeah no not the same. Lili actively goes out of her way to kill people or creatures she doesn't have to. I mean didn't she get her tiara crown or whatever by killing some random Angel cause it was pretty? Has any Gatewatch member done that? Lili's crimes cannot be whitewashed by simply claiming self defense. Its perfectly fine to like evil characters but lets not paint them as saints. Intent matters. So Jace killing his abuser during a duel or Gideon accidentally getting his friends killed are in no way equivalent to Lili's actions. That is a False Equivalence.
I don't particularly think Lili is weak, well Oldwalker wise I do I guess. Mostly, I think she is dumb and getting what she deserves. Now that doesn't mean she cannot be interesting or entertaining, she simply has no business being on a team of supposed Heroes in my book. I don't relate to Lili at all, I don't relate to mass murderers in general especially those to stupid to read the fine print in the deals they make. Doesn't mean she is not entertaining.
I think the angel initiated by landing on the building and saying some cryptic mumbo jumbo, with sword in hand. On a building that contained the chain veil that she was directly told to retrieve by a very evil demon. Taking the crown after killing her was a bit much, but she didn't track her down in cold blood. Resistance probably wasn't a choice but the only course of action. I also never claimed she was a Saint, I didn't lift her up - I brought the rest down. They are all haphazard and dangerous...the entire team. Jace's whole argument against azor could be redirected back at him when he killed the eldrazi (not thinking of the ramifications). In original INN sure, she was a villain and did evil things. The flavor text on killing wave drives it home. Since then? Nope. She killed a dwarf on kld and raised its body to fight tezz to stop him from getting a planar bridge. That's not mass murder or killing for the sake of killing. She killed someone who was attacking her, and repurposed his corpse for a cause that aligned with the heroes.
She's not a good guy, I agree. She's also not building zombie farms like bolas. She's a darker shade of gray most of the time, especially since INN where I feel like her character suffered from the top down horror trope design of the world. Creative must not have liked it either, since she is obviously different since then. I chaulk this up to the same thing as the retcon of nissa's xenophobia.
I agree with Onering in that she feels very Loki-esque. She is a product of her mistakes but she's not going to murder the gatewatch in cold blood because bolas tells her too. She may end up hurting, maybe even killing, 1-2 but she won't want to. She may not have a choice, in her mind. She is the definitive chaotic neutral character.
Again, she is causing other characters to grow. The dominaria general discussion is flush with comments about Gideon embracing ideals out of his comfort zone just dealing with dominarias issues BECAUSE of liliana. Wtf else would he be doing if not for her? Meeting off plane with Ajani and whoever offscreen.
I'm not saying she's a model citizen and she has a messy ledger to put it lightly, but the character they have shown in the dominaria story will make the next bolas arc interesting. Aside from Tezz, bolas' servants all like Jace. Vraska likes him as a friend and/or more once her restores her memory, ral likes him once he figures out he didn't want the job to begin with, and lili does have feelings for him. This is setting up to be a very political and intriguing game of chess and she's an intregral piece. You better get used to her, at least until they start giving other characters legit interplanar threats and stop piling everything on her.
I agree that she’s like Loki in the MCU, or like Black Widow in the comics. She doesn’t have to be a stereotypical hero to fight alongside a super team.
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Oh don't worry I agree Jace was a hypocrite when talking to Azor. When is the last time Jace actually did his job in story anyway? Not to mention the abuses against Vraska aren't Azor's fault cause they didn't happen when the Original Guildpact was active.
You do make a good point...Bolas probably could use some recruits less likely to go soft on Jace and the Gatewatch in a fight. Tezz won't care and Lili he might have direct control over but Ral and Vraska probably liabilities.
As for killing Gatewatch meh I wish they would. I have pet theory where Lili kills Vraska and Jace kills Lili.
Oh don't worry I agree Jace was a hypocrite when talking to Azor. When is the last time Jace actually did his job in story anyway? Not to mention the abuses against Vraska aren't Azor's fault cause they didn't happen when the Original Guildpact was active.
You do make a good point...Bolas probably could use some recruits less likely to go soft on Jace and the Gatewatch in a fight. Tezz won't care and Lili he might have direct control over but Ral and Vraska probably liabilities.
As for killing Gatewatch meh I wish they would. I have pet theory where Lili kills Vraska and Jace kills Lili.
What Bolas needs are recruits who:
1.) Are competent at the tasks he gives them.
2.) Won't go soft for his enemies, like the Gatewatch.
3.) Don't have a desire to turn on him for one reason or another (this category does include Tezzeret).
Bolas keeps recruiting black-aligned individuals, so 3.) is almost an inevitability.
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Having said that, will she kill any main characters or a member of the Gatewatch? Betray Bolas and die to save someone? Simply decide to live and Planeswalk away to fight her former allies in the future?
I'm just curious as to how you think the story will play out at that point.
First, the word is "her", not "here".
Second, we don't know how much Liliana's attitude will change later on. It's entirely possible that her selfishness will dwindle just enough to include the Gatewatch in the list of people she wants to protect.
It’s a move towards some character development that will probably end with her sacrificing herself, either willingly or unwillinglgly, like you said, for the GW or at least doing something that regains Jace’s trust and the rest of the gang’s. I don’t think any of these guys can blame her for going with him because they all essentially did the same back on Amonkhet, but Jace and Anissa probably still will.
She is Angel slaying, human mass murdering monster. Yeah Yeah she was tricked into killing her brother but really parents never taught her to trust strangers? She is attractive sure but her being on the Gatewatch never made sense to me in the first place. She is evil and she was not Anti-Bolas (if anything until Bolas screws her she should be pro Bolas) and no stopping Emrakul because its her preferred plane does not a hero make. Evil is not one big happy family.
She is dumb and lazy. The fact that she never reads the goddamn fine print on any deals she makes means I cannot feel bad for her. She has no foresight and always tries to take the easy way out. I mean sheesh Razaketh even tells her she didn't read the fine print she keeps on trucking along barely considering it. So again the Gatewatch being mean to her doesn't hurt me at all because really they never should have let her into the circle in the first place.
I see Lily as a Walter White/Vic Mackey type character. She does evil things, she does good things, she’s selfish, and she makes mistakes but is can also be incredibly powerful.
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Yeah Jace looks bad...he was fine with Lili when she was evil and manipulative and he wanted to sleep with her but now that he is got a new gf suddenly he is concerned about Lili manipulating the group?
He was vulnerable and fell into an abusive relationship. He kept wanting to see the good in her, and she was one of the few personal connections he had. She cultivated this, like abusers do, by gaslighting him (super easy since he doesn't trust his own amnesiac memory) and making him feel worthless and dependant on her. It's not just that Jace actually found a real, healthy connection with Vrask, its that he's finally clear eyed about what Liliana is, how she operates, and his own value as a person.
She IS like Walter White, I agree. She can be charming and entertaining, and you can feel for her and want to root for her, but she is a terrible, abusive person who causes most of her own problems, and has always been concerned with gaining power.
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I feel like the only reason why Wizards choose Liliana to be a part of the gatewatch instead of creating a new character for the role was simply because players liked the sexy necromancer stereotype, i challenge anyone in this forum to give me 3 reasons why they would allow Liliana to be a part of a super-hero group.
Hell if i was a member of the gatewatch i would have at the very least arrested her ass back on Innistrad.
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I don't expect a happy ending for her, but I do hope that whatever happens to her at the end of this whole thing is on her own terms for a change.
Did you read the same RIX? Did you read same stuff before IXA? Jace literally had the symptoms of someone in an abusive relationship until Ixalan.
Withdrawn or Unusually Quiet (A person who was once chatty and gregarious who is suddenly quiet, reserved and distant, could be an abuse victim.)
Describes abuser as "moody" or having a "bad temper."
Lack of Sleep
Low Self-Esteem
Extremely apologetic or meek
Agitation, anxiety, or constant apprehension
Symptoms of Depression.
Vraska's perception was wavering, and everything had an artificial glint to it, as if the accidental illusions were smearing across reality even now. Her hands were still gripping the mud of the riverbank, physically clinging to what was real.
"Jace, you're safe and all right, but I need you to make an illusion so our crew can find us."
But Jace was still unreachable. His eyes remained bright with magic, and strength had not returned to his limbs. Vraska could see his chest rise and fall with each shuddering breath. He inhaled sharply as another wave of memory washed over him, then went utterly still in response to whatever he was seeing, his lips parted in shock.
The light above them dimmed as an illusion of this new memory coalesced into being, bringing with it the weight of dusk and the scent of too-ripe apples.
Vraska found herself in a small bedroom with bare walls and two chairs in front of the fire. She wasn't sure what plane she was on, but that was irrelevant. This room was a world unto itself, the furniture its continents, the rug its ocean, as if nothing outside of the space mattered. Dust clung to the windowsill, and a half-empty basket of fruit sat by the door, boasting a collection of bruised apples. Jace was there, naturally, and his face was lit by the cozy-looking fire. The texture of the memory was velvety and welcoming, but Vraska saw no joy in the scene.
Jace was seated in front of the fire, across from a woman in violet.
Everything about the woman's body language exuded boredom, but Jace was leaning forward, rapt with interest. Vraska felt deeply uncomfortable. This was an intimate moment. She was not meant to see this.
"I never want to play chess again," Jace said, rubbing his temples.
The woman regarded him with intense disinterest. "Chess is tedious," she said in dull agreement.
Jace's cloak was hanging on the coatrack. His shoes were drying by the fire. Vraska knew she shouldn't watch, yet she knew she couldn't leave.
Jace's left index finger was tapping a rapid, unconscious rhythm on his thigh. His voice was tentative. Uncertain. "What you said back on Innistrad, about when I die . . ."
The woman's long hair tumbled over half of her face. Her lipstick was end-of-the-day faded and her eyes betrayed an indifference that Vraska prayed this version of Jace would notice.
"You remember that conversation?"
"Hard to forget a conversation like that," said Jace. "You don't meddle in sentiment unless you mean it. So . . . did you mean it?"
"What?"
He paused, cautious. "Will you be sad when I die?"
Jace was looking at the woman in violet attentively. Expectantly. Vraska's stomach lurched at the strangeness of the question. He had asked it as if he was unsure, even though the context of the moment around him implied that he and this woman were more than acquaintances.
The woman in violet looked Jace in the eye, lids heavy, knees resting to the side. "I expect so," she said. A half sentiment. A bone for the dog. "What we had, whatever you want to call it . . . it's worth that much, at least."
Vraska's mouth hung open. That's it? The woman's cruel dismissal of an honest plea for affection told Vraska everything she needed to know about her. Vraska's tendrils knotted in discomfort, but she couldn't look away from this poor man, this woman, this dreadful little room.
"I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me," Jace replied.
The woman in violet laughed. As though it were a joke. As though he hadn't said it with a desperate yearning for her approval written plainly on his face.
Vraska felt like a home invader. This domestic play of profound imbalance wasn't meant for her to see.
"You should go back. The others will notice if you don't come home tonight," said the woman.
Jace shrugged. "It's just past sunset. I've got time."
"Oh." The woman looked Jace over, visibly weighing some decision in her mind.
She stood up suddenly and crossed the room toward her vanity. Vraska sidestepped her and watched as the woman opened a drawer. She pulled out a bottle and two glasses and returned to the fireside, deftly uncorking the decanter with one swift motion. "What should we drink to?" she asked.
You don't pour a glass for someone you want to leave, Vraska thought as her stomach dropped.
Jace was smiling. "A toast, to Emrakul," he quipped, "for doing our job for us."
The woman lifted her half-filled glass and clinked it against his.
They both drank deeply.
She refilled their glasses to the brim.
They drank in silence.
The fire crackled in the hearth.
Vraska couldn't take her eyes off the other woman. For someone who hated chess, she sure looked at Jace with the icy scrutiny of a grand master.
At last the woman in violet decided her play, disguising her probe with a lethargic sip from her glass. "Have you seen anyone since?" Vraska could hear the weight implied in that "since." The designation, the shared knowledge. "You got along well with the moonfolk woman," she added deliberately. Pawn to E4.
The game behind the statement made Vraska want to claw her way out of the room.
Jace swirled the liquid in his glass and his demeanor suddenly shifted. He glanced up at the woman in violet. "She's married."
"Is she?" the woman said, superficially pleased at the revelation. She knew full well how aggressive her opening move had been. Knight to F3.
Jace's nodded. "She was a scholar. Morally ambiguous. Married, and not what I'm looking for even if she weren't."
The woman in violet was watching him closely.
"And what are you looking for?" she asked.
She's manipulating you into staying, Vraska wanted to scream. You're smart. She doesn't reciprocate your feelings. Don't fall for this.
Jace leaned back in his chair and stared at her over his glass. With great trepidation and an uncharacteristic absence of logic, his answer fluttered out. "This isn't so bad."
Vraska's heart ached. This was so bad, but he was too far lost to pull back the curtain of affection and see the bored cruelty of her intentions.
"This is just two old acquaintances, relaxing after a victory," the woman responded. "Reminiscing about the good old days."
Jace absently tugged on his right glove. "Those days weren't all good."
"We weren't, either," the woman said in a hushed, dangerous tone.
In a moment, the game transformed, chessboard tossed on the floor, metaphorical dice on the table. She was a gambler, floating an offer for one more round, one more bet, just for the hell of it, c'mon, fellas, what's the worst that could happen.
"We're not together," the woman in violet added. "But you don't have to leave just yet."
Jace looked up from his drink and met her gaze with a hopeful look.
The woman topped up both of their glasses and lifted hers. "To new good old days," she said.
To Vraska's relief, the illusion dissolved, and the riverbed returned.
Vraska felt nauseated. Was there anyone in Jace's life who hadn't tried to take advantage of him or his talents?
(A memory: his mother, arriving home from a day at work, dressed in her healer's smock, looking out the open window at a storm in the distance with a cup of coffee nestled in her hands and a little smile on her tired face. He heard fat raindrops rattling the tin roof. The air smelled like wet concrete and home.)
Jace smiled. He liked being able to remember his mother.
I hope she is alive, he thought to himself.
"It's gone," Vraska said, breaking the spell.
Jace remembered where he was and released his hold on his illusion.
"You cast that illusion more quickly than I've seen you do it before," she said.
Jace nodded with a tight smile. "I can remember the skills my mentor taught me, now. I learned more from him by the time I was a teenager than I ever did teaching myself."
"So teenage you had more refined technique than adult you?"
"And now current me has the knowledge of both. It's . . . weird."
Vraska looked him in the eye. "You're incredible. You know that, right?"
Jace returned her smile and felt his cheeks warming. "I do my best."
"Well, your best is incredible," Vraska said, turning toward the central tower and approaching a large gate on what appeared to be its back side.
Liliana never told Jace he was incredible.
Liliana would have scoffed. She would have made a dismissive joke, rolled her eyes, and called him a show-off. She would not bother to talk to him for days. She would consume the body of a demon with a crocodile's jaws and laugh over the sound of its flesh tearing off. She would do all sorts of things, but she would never call him incredible.
Or perhaps you don't really understand the characters beyond their surface portrayal?
Sure the difference is intent, but creative has been very clear lili escalates things to self preservation and defense quickly - that's the only variance. She fully intended to save innistrad. She fully intended to kill tezzeret, and even mentioned him torturing Jace as part of her motivation. She wanted to free Josu and clean up her past mistakes.
Where you guys see a weak character I see a great catalyst for character growth and story telling. Lili is pulling the gatewatch out of their comfort zones and progressing growth and story arc for the whole team.
I think she'll go with bolas because she doesn't have a choice. Similar to the end of HoU. Gideon will hate bolas all the more because of it (honestly she doesn't want to be beholden to anyone, she's not being a traitor here), and he's smart enough to see she doesn't want to serve. Chandra may take it personally, but she's flippant and erratic anyway. That'll cool with time. Jace will be reassured in his feelings at the end of RIX and more than likely pursue Vraska. Nissa will probably clean her hands of the whole ordeal. Teferi doesn't have a horse in the race. Karn has bigger fish to fry. Jaya has just recently been introduced again, so I'm not sure what motivates her.
Really though lili is compelling story because the character is dynamic. She's a reflection of past mistakes and those to come. It's compelling to read because you don't know what she's going to do, but you can relate to her. She's much more compelling than Jace to me (and I like Jace) because he has conquered all of his closet skeletons except bolas/tezz and I'm not even sure tezz would stand much of a chance with a mentally intact Jace. I know what Jace is likely to do, even if he does it in interesting ways, the goal is always clear. Same with Gideon. Lili seems the most human in her thought process of the bunch. She's the only one to guard secrets and feel shame for her past. How do you not relate to that? She's vurnable and powerful enough to keep everyone away, or has been until recently.
Lili still has garruk out for her, an unsettled score with tezz (which is going to be interesting since they're both serving bolas), a pact with bolas, now personal beef with at least some of the gatewatch (Jace/Nissa assuming that gid/Chandra forgive her or see that she has no choice in leaving), the chain veil, and the raven man. If anything creative needs to spread the wealth and give some of these past mistakes to other story members because lili has all of them.
That is possible but hey I took AP Lit and got an A and a 5 on the Exam this aint exactly Shakespeare. Granted I have a strong anti Gatewatch Bias.
Yeah no not the same. Lili actively goes out of her way to kill people or creatures she doesn't have to. I mean didn't she get her tiara crown or whatever by killing some random Angel cause it was pretty? Has any Gatewatch member done that? Lili's crimes cannot be whitewashed by simply claiming self defense. Its perfectly fine to like evil characters but lets not paint them as saints. Intent matters. So Jace killing his abuser during a duel or Gideon accidentally getting his friends killed are in no way equivalent to Lili's actions. That is a False Equivalence.
I don't particularly think Lili is weak, well Oldwalker wise I do I guess. Mostly, I think she is dumb and getting what she deserves. Now that doesn't mean she cannot be interesting or entertaining, she simply has no business being on a team of supposed Heroes in my book. I don't relate to Lili at all, I don't relate to mass murderers in general especially those to stupid to read the fine print in the deals they make. Doesn't mean she is not entertaining.
To be fair, there was a real stretch when the characters really were just their surface portrayals, due to poor writing and characterization. It wasn't until halfway through Shadows block that the quality picked up enough for the story to be able to effectively work in layers.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's very easy to relate to her, but its also very easy to see that the reason she has so many past mistakes is because she is selfish and power hungry. She has always wanted to take shortcuts and prove that she is better than everyone, to prove that she doesn't need to listen and can figure out a superior way on her own. She doesn't need to be diplomatic, she can blast people with death magic. She doesn't need to heal her brother the old way, the dark arts she's been studying will do it better. She doesn't need to figure out how to trick her demons, she can blast them with the chain veil. She doesn't need to gain genuine allies, she can easily manipulate these weak fools into helping her.
She's a trash person. She's suffering because she has caused her own suffering. She is relatable because she IS very human, but her humanity is mostly in her failings. Occasionally some decent or sentimentality breaks through and she becomes somewhat sympathetic. In the end, she's still a villainess, just as her anagram of a name suggests. She's a bit like MCU Loki, actually.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Nope, but then again, there are two factors to consider:
1.) It's entirely possible the Archangel of Tithes actually started the confrontation, since they detest necromancers like Lili.
2.) Liliana was still relatively godlike at the time, so chances are it'd be difficult for any Gatewatch member to do that now by themselves.
Still, even with godlike Oldwalker power, I doubt Nissa, Jace, Chandra, Gids, Ajani or Teferi would do anything of the sort. Also, there's definitely no excuse for what she did at the Helvault, which was one of the more prominent examples of her cruelty.
Not sure what your point is. Lili killing her brother is a mistake, I will agree. But I don't think the vast majority of Lili's acts post that are innocent mistakes where she just accidentally killed people and creatures or it was always self defense. So yeah she started with some degree of tragedy but such tragedy doesn't justify her behavior after that to me.
Well for Teferi we really don't have to speculate, we know what he did as an Oldwalker. At worst Teferi was similar to Nissa ie Zhalfir (Zendikar) or Sorin (Innistrad) First. And a bit too loose with playing around with time granted no one knew about Time Rifts at the time. And my plane or country first was standard practice on Dominaria anyway.
I think the angel initiated by landing on the building and saying some cryptic mumbo jumbo, with sword in hand. On a building that contained the chain veil that she was directly told to retrieve by a very evil demon. Taking the crown after killing her was a bit much, but she didn't track her down in cold blood. Resistance probably wasn't a choice but the only course of action. I also never claimed she was a Saint, I didn't lift her up - I brought the rest down. They are all haphazard and dangerous...the entire team. Jace's whole argument against azor could be redirected back at him when he killed the eldrazi (not thinking of the ramifications). In original INN sure, she was a villain and did evil things. The flavor text on killing wave drives it home. Since then? Nope. She killed a dwarf on kld and raised its body to fight tezz to stop him from getting a planar bridge. That's not mass murder or killing for the sake of killing. She killed someone who was attacking her, and repurposed his corpse for a cause that aligned with the heroes.
She's not a good guy, I agree. She's also not building zombie farms like bolas. She's a darker shade of gray most of the time, especially since INN where I feel like her character suffered from the top down horror trope design of the world. Creative must not have liked it either, since she is obviously different since then. I chaulk this up to the same thing as the retcon of nissa's xenophobia.
I agree with Onering in that she feels very Loki-esque. She is a product of her mistakes but she's not going to murder the gatewatch in cold blood because bolas tells her too. She may end up hurting, maybe even killing, 1-2 but she won't want to. She may not have a choice, in her mind. She is the definitive chaotic neutral character.
Again, she is causing other characters to grow. The dominaria general discussion is flush with comments about Gideon embracing ideals out of his comfort zone just dealing with dominarias issues BECAUSE of liliana. Wtf else would he be doing if not for her? Meeting off plane with Ajani and whoever offscreen.
I'm not saying she's a model citizen and she has a messy ledger to put it lightly, but the character they have shown in the dominaria story will make the next bolas arc interesting. Aside from Tezz, bolas' servants all like Jace. Vraska likes him as a friend and/or more once her restores her memory, ral likes him once he figures out he didn't want the job to begin with, and lili does have feelings for him. This is setting up to be a very political and intriguing game of chess and she's an intregral piece. You better get used to her, at least until they start giving other characters legit interplanar threats and stop piling everything on her.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
You do make a good point...Bolas probably could use some recruits less likely to go soft on Jace and the Gatewatch in a fight. Tezz won't care and Lili he might have direct control over but Ral and Vraska probably liabilities.
As for killing Gatewatch meh I wish they would. I have pet theory where Lili kills Vraska and Jace kills Lili.
What Bolas needs are recruits who:
1.) Are competent at the tasks he gives them.
2.) Won't go soft for his enemies, like the Gatewatch.
3.) Don't have a desire to turn on him for one reason or another (this category does include Tezzeret).
Bolas keeps recruiting black-aligned individuals, so 3.) is almost an inevitability.