Meh counter magic annoys me mostly cause I don't really get the mechanics in story.
In Baral's case, it seems to be a matter of sensing/seeing the 'strings' mana weaved together to cast a spell, removing the 'strings' of mana that hold the whole thing together before it reaches you, and then just letting it fall apart (sort of like taking out a load bearing wall and then letting the ceiling cave in). It does seem to require that he be aware of the spell in question and the countering in each case is tailored to the spell in question (so he can't just put up a generic anti-magic zone around himself or something similar).
Lol one of my favorite scenes in this sort fiction involves an Anti Magic Field. It comes from a webcomic.
So then its not effective against AOE?
Theoretically, it work just fine against AOE. What it doesn't seem to work against is a spell he didn't see coming (or saw too late to react to) or multiple different but simultaneous spells (since each individual spell seems to require his attention to counter).
Well you went above and beyond there. But yeah I was also not counting Tamiyo cause she is super broken with basically Reality Warping but you know requires setup and she won't use it.
Ajani had special circumstances and Bolas didn't especially care about destroying Alara.
Kiora more ran from a God assuming we are talking about Thassa. Thassa beat the brakes off Kiora. Just cause owning Gods is easy for Bolas doesn't make it so for everyone else.
Jace is still third at best. I suppose it depends on how much of a power up he got but seeing as Ugin casually put a failsafe in his mind that he didn't notice. He is only third at best. He might be fourth quite frankly but I don't think we are going to acknowledge that Teferi was a pretty good telepath capable of blocking Urza as a kid and casually making enemies harmlessly cluck like Chickens. And of course Ashiok is in his niche.
Saheeli could be broken as far as I can tell she is a weak Magneto. So she powers that up and she could be pretty darn strong.
But yeah lets see color wise. And leaving Tamiyo unranked.
White: Elspeth, No Question. When she wasn't moping an absolute engine of destruction against both Boss Monsters and Mobs. And she is probably getting rezzed. Heck Heliod didn't even wanna mess with her straight up, waited for her to power down before the backstab. If not her Ajani I guess.
Blue: Jace, Poster Child. Even if he defense is not great to actual damage spells. As long as he is not fighting Artifacts. Mind Control is Broken. Venser is dead an not coming back.
Black: ???? Well Lili makes this hard. Although if Elspeth comes back WB she can be number one in two categories. I say Ashiok over Vraska though. More Versatile.
Red: Chandra by default. You can make a case for Koth. But Chandra is the Poster Child for Red right now so without more evidence to contrast she gets it by default.
Green: Nissa even if she is plot dependent (I mean plane Dependent). Nahiri showed how broken a proper application of Leyline Manipulation is.
I agree with Autumn, Jace is in no way the second best telepath. That's Vraska's opinion, not a fact. Bolas and Ugin have both messed with his mind without him realising it. Ashiok is an enigma. I wouldnt put Jace in the top three to be honest.
Thassa wiped the floor with Kiora.
Ral seemed pretty strong in the Secretist actually. He was like a more volatile and egotistical version of Chandra to the point he was actively malicious. He countered Jace's telepathy and the latter had to use illusions to escape.
About Gideon: He is strong. Hixus has said that he is the strongest hieromancer he's ever seen. The thing is, Gideon doesnt use his magic, besides his force field.
Colorwise I'd go with:
White - Elspeth. Easy.
Blue - Narset or Tezzeret. We know Narset is strong. She became the youngest master ever in the Ojutai and blasted Taigam like he was nothing. Tezzeret held his own againt the gatewatch in Kaladesh. His arm makes up for his lack of talent in magic, but really its his mind that makes him dangerous. The problem is that he, like many other characters (See Sorin) suffer from a lack of good writter to do them justice.
Black - I dont think we have a neowalker that really screams black? Someone already mentioned Ashiok.
Red - Sarkhan. Chandra just burns things. This guy can do this and so much more.
Green - I'd go with Garruk. Nissa's power fluctuates way too much.
[quote from="RaltheMad »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/792439-were-oldwalkers-actually-that-powerful?comment=72"]
With this being said, the "tier list" we were discussing was about sheer magical power, and I maintain that, when it comes to sheer magical power, Tezzeret ranks fairly low, certainly not at the top of the color blue. He himself stated this to be the truth, and while I agree that his mind is what makes him dangerous, now the discussion wasn't about that.
In that case (raw Power) I'd go with Narset as first and Ral being a close second for Blue.
I agree with Autumn, Jace is in no way the second best telepath. That's Vraska's opinion, not a fact. Bolas and Ugin have both messed with his mind without him realising it. Ashiok is an enigma. I wouldnt put Jace in the top three to be honest.
Thassa wiped the floor with Kiora.
Ral seemed pretty strong in the Secretist actually. He was like a more volatile and egotistical version of Chandra to the point he was actively malicious. He countered Jace's telepathy and the latter had to use illusions to escape.
About Gideon: He is strong. Hixus has said that he is the strongest hieromancer he's ever seen. The thing is, Gideon doesnt use his magic, besides his force field.
Colorwise I'd go with:
White - Elspeth. Easy.
Blue - Narset or Tezzeret. We know Narset is strong. She became the youngest master ever in the Ojutai and blasted Taigam like he was nothing. Tezzeret held his own againt the gatewatch in Kaladesh. His arm makes up for his lack of talent in magic, but really its his mind that makes him dangerous. The problem is that he, like many other characters (See Sorin) suffer from a lack of good writter to do them justice.
Black - I dont think we have a neowalker that really screams black? Someone already mentioned Ashiok.
Red - Sarkhan. Chandra just burns things. This guy can do this and so much more.
Green - I'd go with Garruk. Nissa's power fluctuates way too much.
Tezz problem is his power is dependent on artifacts essentially not a bad thing. He simply doesn't have a lot innate offensive power. Maybe if intergrates some more actual firepower into his body. Plus hard to rate him higher then Jace when Jace rekt him and Jace got a power up.
Narset, I forgot about I am not even sure what her powers actually are right now.
Sarkhan is good pick I shied away from considering tricolors in my ranking. I am not sure I rate him as strictly R but I guess that is his main color. So fair enough choice.
Yeah Nissa is not reliable she is just so OP when she is on its not fair.
And Yeah Elspeth is still Queen. The most powerful Neowalker on a reliable basis who doesn't wield pure hax, Tamiyo or depend on the plane, Nissa. And as for Gideon, yeah I don't give statements much credit. So until he uses those powers they might as well not exist.
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Theoretically, it work just fine against AOE. What it doesn't seem to work against is a spell he didn't see coming (or saw too late to react to) or multiple different but simultaneous spells (since each individual spell seems to require his attention to counter).
Ajani had special circumstances and Bolas didn't especially care about destroying Alara.
Kiora more ran from a God assuming we are talking about Thassa. Thassa beat the brakes off Kiora. Just cause owning Gods is easy for Bolas doesn't make it so for everyone else.
Jace is still third at best. I suppose it depends on how much of a power up he got but seeing as Ugin casually put a failsafe in his mind that he didn't notice. He is only third at best. He might be fourth quite frankly but I don't think we are going to acknowledge that Teferi was a pretty good telepath capable of blocking Urza as a kid and casually making enemies harmlessly cluck like Chickens. And of course Ashiok is in his niche.
Saheeli could be broken as far as I can tell she is a weak Magneto. So she powers that up and she could be pretty darn strong.
But yeah lets see color wise. And leaving Tamiyo unranked.
White: Elspeth, No Question. When she wasn't moping an absolute engine of destruction against both Boss Monsters and Mobs. And she is probably getting rezzed. Heck Heliod didn't even wanna mess with her straight up, waited for her to power down before the backstab. If not her Ajani I guess.
Blue: Jace, Poster Child. Even if he defense is not great to actual damage spells. As long as he is not fighting Artifacts. Mind Control is Broken. Venser is dead an not coming back.
Black: ???? Well Lili makes this hard. Although if Elspeth comes back WB she can be number one in two categories. I say Ashiok over Vraska though. More Versatile.
Red: Chandra by default. You can make a case for Koth. But Chandra is the Poster Child for Red right now so without more evidence to contrast she gets it by default.
Green: Nissa even if she is plot dependent (I mean plane Dependent). Nahiri showed how broken a proper application of Leyline Manipulation is.
Thassa wiped the floor with Kiora.
Ral seemed pretty strong in the Secretist actually. He was like a more volatile and egotistical version of Chandra to the point he was actively malicious. He countered Jace's telepathy and the latter had to use illusions to escape.
About Gideon: He is strong. Hixus has said that he is the strongest hieromancer he's ever seen. The thing is, Gideon doesnt use his magic, besides his force field.
Colorwise I'd go with:
White - Elspeth. Easy.
Blue - Narset or Tezzeret. We know Narset is strong. She became the youngest master ever in the Ojutai and blasted Taigam like he was nothing. Tezzeret held his own againt the gatewatch in Kaladesh. His arm makes up for his lack of talent in magic, but really its his mind that makes him dangerous. The problem is that he, like many other characters (See Sorin) suffer from a lack of good writter to do them justice.
Black - I dont think we have a neowalker that really screams black? Someone already mentioned Ashiok.
Red - Sarkhan. Chandra just burns things. This guy can do this and so much more.
Green - I'd go with Garruk. Nissa's power fluctuates way too much.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
In that case (raw Power) I'd go with Narset as first and Ral being a close second for Blue.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
Tezz problem is his power is dependent on artifacts essentially not a bad thing. He simply doesn't have a lot innate offensive power. Maybe if intergrates some more actual firepower into his body. Plus hard to rate him higher then Jace when Jace rekt him and Jace got a power up.
Narset, I forgot about I am not even sure what her powers actually are right now.
Sarkhan is good pick I shied away from considering tricolors in my ranking. I am not sure I rate him as strictly R but I guess that is his main color. So fair enough choice.
Yeah Nissa is not reliable she is just so OP when she is on its not fair.
And Yeah Elspeth is still Queen. The most powerful Neowalker on a reliable basis who doesn't wield pure hax, Tamiyo or depend on the plane, Nissa. And as for Gideon, yeah I don't give statements much credit. So until he uses those powers they might as well not exist.