Some of you probably noticed the Planeswalker Survey on Wizards' page.
There are three things that intrigued me.
First is the already discussed "Pokémon Trainer" Vivien, who has a bow capable of capturing the essence of animals. Discussed elsewhere.
Second is Daretti, who is presented a little differently. Namely, a "great manipulator of people", who "wants to install himself, and his kind, to rule Fiora instead of humans". Not quite the a-bit-scatterbrained and slightly scared goblin who accompanied Grenzo when we last saw him.
But the most serious is Tamiyo:
"A master of "story magic", once Tamiyo has recorded an event in her journals, she is capable of rewriting them such that they change the past itself, and thus the present."
I mean...what? In Erfworld's terms, she is a friggin' retconjurer. In Magic's terms, she is a second (and more powerful) coming of Commodore friggin' Guff. And we know how that turned out.
First the Tarkir timeline change, okay. But now we have a character capable of actual rewriting the history and changing present? Me not likey.
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Tamiyo_3
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Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
"A master of "story magic", once Tamiyo has recorded an event in her journals, she is capable of rewriting them such that they change the past itself, and thus the present."
WHAT THE FRIGGEN ELL? I guess Nicol Bolas can no longer rightfully argue that he is in fact "The single most powerful thing that has ever existed" now.
Can I ask you a favor, Caranthir? Could you post the "bio" of all the PW? These are all jucy informations to put on the wiki, I think! Thank you!
So, Tamiyo is another Commodore Guff now, I guess?
I'll try to click through for them again
EDIT: It is finished and closed now :-( But there was not anything interesting or something we did not know. Attaching two more I saved - Teferi and Ashiok.
Yeah, Tamiyo's ability is broken. I was going to point out that the character, as it was presented to us, would never ever use such a power. But we do all know, there's no point in presenting it if it's not functional plot-wise. So, mind-manipulation (again)? Free will? Hey Bolas, have you heard of it?
I would look at Vivien's as if that's her general concept but that not everything about it as canon. Kind of like Nissa's DotP profile, before she actually appeared in Zendikar.
Sorry how do we this is non Canon. Yes I get this was outsourced a third party but if WOTC is going to be bringing in actual writers again then I think it makes sense for the Story Group to sit down and writeup some DnDesque Character Sheets for at least their main characters in Planeswalkers. That means basics like Color Identity, Plane of Origin, Age, Gender, Skill/PowerSet, goals and a basic personality outline. Its not like WOTC doesn't mind retcons, in Dominaria we already got Jhoira knowing Jodah during Invasion and the Weatherlight still having its powerstone core instead of Karn.
As for Tamiyo, specifically yes it is potentially broken but it doesn't seem all that different from allowing her scrolls to change current events based on the past events recorded. All one really needs to do to control her abilities as described is slap a high casting cost with time since the event or the importance of the event adding to the cost. High cost being sacrificing a bunch of souls ala the Blackblade or collapsing a plane ala Urza. She is BANT and isolationist after all so she is not liable to do anything particularly evil to change the past.
As for Teferi and Bolas, lets be honest Bolas needs some nerfs if anyone is beating him outside of McGuffin and its not a bad place to start then not making him a better at everything then more specialist Oldwalkers, that is not to say he shouldn't be good at those things. However, its one thing to have him a better mind mage then a mid to late twenties Jace or a better fire mage then a similarity aged Chandra. It is quite another thing for him to better then his fellow Oldwalkers at their specialities ala a better Time Mage then millenium old Teferi, a better Fire Mage then a millenium and half Jaya or a better Lithomancer then six millenium old Nahiri. If they are planning on on writing a convincing defeat for him, that doesn't involve some serious ***pulls.
I would argue that no human should ever be a better fire mage than even the lowliest of dragons. No matter how awesome and quippy Jaya is.
That is acceptable point but I think the main point stands Bolas should not be better then every other Oldwalker at their supposed specialty. If the plan is to setup a defeat that doesn't involve lots of screaming about plotholes and PIS. We already got some of that from Hour of Devastation.
I should note Chandra did cause Bolas some discomfort. So you expect Jaya with roughly 50 times the experience and as Chandra's master to do a better then that and actually cause some damage. Its not like Bolas doesn't have a massive list of other skills and powers to fall back on.
I mean, I get these are non-canon, and thus shouldn't be looked at in the context of canon... But even in their own context, even in their own little world where they're the only info available about these characters, the blurbs still make no sense. If Tamiyo can rewrite the past and nullify events (and thus the timelines originating from them), then how is Teferi "the most powerful temporal mage"? What kind of time manipulation can possibly be stronger than BENDING HISTORY TO YOUR WILL? So either Tamiyo's bio is a lie or Teferi's is, and again, this is just by looking at these things in their own little context, without inserting in the, you know, ACTUAL context of MtG canon.
So yeah, the point I'm trying to make is, these blurbs are written rather poorly, and I wouldn't give them any serious consideration if I were you guys.
I wouldn't consider Reality Warping the same as Time Manipulation.
Tamiyo's main ability requires prep and access to her scrolls. If you randomly attacked her she can manipulate time.
Teferi can always manipulate time, I am sure he can do more with prep as well but he is not dependent on scrolls or prep to slow time, speed it up or freeze it.
I would argue that no human should ever be a better fire mage than even the lowliest of dragons. No matter how awesome and quippy Jaya is.
Tell me about it. I threw a rant in one of the comments about how absurdly pushed Planeswalkers are, to be the best at everything right off the bat, even in foreign environments when entering new planes. It's silly not to have a character's journey as a walker be about growing, learning new magic, and evolving as a mage. If they're already everything they could be, going around showing up dragons, gods, head angels, and all that, then what the hell.
I would argue that no human should ever be a better fire mage than even the lowliest of dragons. No matter how awesome and quippy Jaya is.
Tell me about it. I threw a rant in one of the comments about how absurdly pushed Planeswalkers are, to be the best at everything right off the bat, even in foreign environments when entering new planes. It's silly not to have a character's journey as a walker be about growing, learning new magic, and evolving as a mage. If they're already everything they could be, going around showing up dragons, gods, head angels, and all that, then what the hell.
That is what funny. I thought the whole point of going from Oldwalkers to Neowalkers was Oldwalkers were OP. I mean we all know the real reason is they wanted color specific face characters. But I swear I have read Urza getting a beatdown from a Nonwalker far more then I have seen Jace get beat up by a Nonwalker.
Radiant is giving Urza a no holds bar beatdown meanwhile Jace is pimpslapping around Azor like its easy. Millennium of experience count for nothing for Azor.
Baron Sengir was putting the Fear of God in Serra and Feroz (Two Oldwalkers), meanwhile Eldrazi Titans are going down to Maximized Fireballs and the Power of Friendship.
Nine Oldwalkers step to Yawgmoth in his house and only two make it out alive and they actually had a plan. Five Gatewatch members face Bolas in his house tired and with no plan, no one dies, he lets them go. Jace gets a powerup and a new girlfriend a few months later and Gideon gets a shoulder injury.
How many times do you read a story where the locals do absolutely nothing to the plot while the Gatewatch (and thus Walkers do all the heavy lifting). First, two chapters of Dominaria had the locals chip in a warm bed and one illusion spell while a recovering Gideon and Liliana did all the real work. Meanwhile, the Weatherlight crew dominated the narrative for quite awhile with no Walker in sight.
Just because they didn't show the Angel and her forces fight doesn't mean they didn't. Gideon fought a couple higher level enemies and Lili dealt with Josu. The rest of Josu's army was dealt with by the Benalish forces.
I would argue that no human should ever be a better fire mage than even the lowliest of dragons. No matter how awesome and quippy Jaya is.
Tell me about it. I threw a rant in one of the comments about how absurdly pushed Planeswalkers are, to be the best at everything right off the bat, even in foreign environments when entering new planes. It's silly not to have a character's journey as a walker be about growing, learning new magic, and evolving as a mage. If they're already everything they could be, going around showing up dragons, gods, head angels, and all that, then what the hell.
That is what funny. I thought the whole point of going from Oldwalkers to Neowalkers was Oldwalkers were OP. I mean we all know the real reason is they wanted color specific face characters. But I swear I have read Urza getting a beatdown from a Nonwalker far more then I have seen Jace get beat up by a Nonwalker.
Radiant is giving Urza a no holds bar beatdown meanwhile Jace is pimpslapping around Azor like its easy. Millennium of experience count for nothing for Azor.
Baron Sengir was putting the Fear of God in Serra and Feroz (Two Oldwalkers), meanwhile Eldrazi Titans are going down to Maximized Fireballs and the Power of Friendship.
Nine Oldwalkers step to Yawgmoth in his house and only two make it out alive and they actually had a plan. Five Gatewatch members face Bolas in his house tired and with no plan, no one dies, he lets them go. Jace gets a powerup and a new girlfriend a few months later and Gideon gets a shoulder injury.
How many times do you read a story where the locals do absolutely nothing to the plot while the Gatewatch (and thus Walkers do all the heavy lifting). First, two chapters of Dominaria had the locals chip in a warm bed and one illusion spell while a recovering Gideon and Liliana did all the real work. Meanwhile, the Weatherlight crew dominated the narrative for quite awhile with no Walker in sight.
Don't forget Thassa, the embodiment and commander of all blue mana of an entire plane. And the worst of all, two Eldrazi titans made pushovers.
Let's be honest here: Zendikar and Innistrad weren't destroyed because they're too popular to just discard, and you can be certain that some here would lose their minds if either plane bit the dust. At least with Innistrad, Emrakul being the real winner kinda salvaged it IMO.
As for walkers having too much plot armor in the story, that is a problem, but it's worth mentioning the following:
1.) The Gatewatch couldn't have defeated the Eldrazi without Ugin's information, Zendikar's massive amount of mana or the hedron network. Zendikar had the conditions for them to roast the Titans. On Innistrad, things were different, so they would have all died to Emrakul if she didn't intervene herself.
2.) Thassa won out over Kiora in the power department and could have easily killed her if her curiosity didn't get the better of her.
3.) We still don't know what Bolas wants with Ravnica, or why he thinks the Gatewatch can be useful (from a story perspective).
4.) Elspeth was murdered by Heliod, and Ajani couldn't save her. She can come back, but that's because of the plane's metaphysics, and not because she's a walker.
5.) The Gatewatch were almost helpless when they had to confront the Gods on Amonkhet. The exception was Nissa, who probably has one of the most OP abilities in the Magic Multiverse, which is leyline manipulation.
Let's be honest here: Zendikar and Innistrad weren't destroyed because they're too popular to just discard, and you can be certain that some here would lose their minds if either plane bit the dust. At least with Innistrad, Emrakul being the real winner kinda salvaged it IMO.
As for walkers having too much plot armor in the story, that is a problem, but it's worth mentioning the following:
1.) The Gatewatch couldn't have defeated the Eldrazi without Ugin's information, Zendikar's massive amount of mana or the hedron network. Zendikar had the conditions for them to roast the Titans. On Innistrad, things were different, so they would have all died to Emrakul if she didn't intervene herself.
2.) Thassa won out over Kiora in the power department and could have easily killed her if her curiosity didn't get the better of her.
3.) We still don't know what Bolas wants with Ravnica, or why he thinks the Gatewatch can be useful (from a story perspective).
4.) Elspeth was murdered by Heliod, and Ajani couldn't save her. She can come back, but that's because of the plane's metaphysics, and not because she's a walker.
5.) The Gatewatch were almost helpless when they had to confront the Gods on Amonkhet. The exception was Nissa, who probably has one of the most OP abilities in the Magic Multiverse, which is leyline manipulation.
Damaged, a Destroyed Plane is a Plane that one cannot reasonably hope to recover...Mirrodin, Serra's Realm, etc.
It really doesn't matter. Eldrazi Titans that takes Three Oldwalkers to contain and hundreds of years of prep. Should not be dropped by Walkers who are now supposedly weaker by a maximized Fireball. If you hype a threat up that much I expect a better and more clever solution then that.
Your point seems to be its not bad because Gods can still be a challenge there is not a problem. My argument was non Gods could sufficiently challenge Oldwalkers who are presumably more powerful then Neowalkers. There should be more threats that a Neowalker cannot just walk over is my point.
Bolas can say whatever he wants it doesn't make him not committing PIS unless his plan absolutely critically requires each Gatewatch member. The point is if you are going to have your leads be so arrogant to attack Bolas with no plan then they should pay a hire price then some temp memory loss and a shoulder injury.
And the point still remains, the Neowalkers are presumably far weaker and yet how many challenges can the average mortal on any plane give them. How many nonwalkers are actually relevant these days compared to the Weatherlight crew who made themselves useful. You expect to see more of them considering the massive power nerf and yet most of the normals on these planes are irrelevant.
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There are three things that intrigued me.
First is the already discussed "Pokémon Trainer" Vivien, who has a bow capable of capturing the essence of animals. Discussed elsewhere.
Second is Daretti, who is presented a little differently. Namely, a "great manipulator of people", who "wants to install himself, and his kind, to rule Fiora instead of humans". Not quite the a-bit-scatterbrained and slightly scared goblin who accompanied Grenzo when we last saw him.
But the most serious is Tamiyo:
"A master of "story magic", once Tamiyo has recorded an event in her journals, she is capable of rewriting them such that they change the past itself, and thus the present."
I mean...what? In Erfworld's terms, she is a friggin' retconjurer. In Magic's terms, she is a second (and more powerful) coming of Commodore friggin' Guff. And we know how that turned out.
First the Tarkir timeline change, okay. But now we have a character capable of actual rewriting the history and changing present? Me not likey.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
WHAT THE FRIGGEN ELL? I guess Nicol Bolas can no longer rightfully argue that he is in fact "The single most powerful thing that has ever existed" now.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
So, Tamiyo is another Commodore Guff now, I guess?
I'll try to click through for them again
EDIT: It is finished and closed now :-( But there was not anything interesting or something we did not know. Attaching two more I saved - Teferi and Ashiok.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Tamiyo's bio is worying... Guff was a flawed, yet amusing character...
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
As the Branding side of things expands, I'm going to imagine we're going to see a lot more not-quite-accurate stuff like this.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Phew. Good to hear that.
So no pokémon trainer planeswalker for us?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
On serious note, I hate changes like this.
And hold on, I thought Bolas were able to defeat Teferi even on temporal magic?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Sometimes it pays to read the thread fully. These blurbs aren't canon.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
As for Tamiyo, specifically yes it is potentially broken but it doesn't seem all that different from allowing her scrolls to change current events based on the past events recorded. All one really needs to do to control her abilities as described is slap a high casting cost with time since the event or the importance of the event adding to the cost. High cost being sacrificing a bunch of souls ala the Blackblade or collapsing a plane ala Urza. She is BANT and isolationist after all so she is not liable to do anything particularly evil to change the past.
As for Teferi and Bolas, lets be honest Bolas needs some nerfs if anyone is beating him outside of McGuffin and its not a bad place to start then not making him a better at everything then more specialist Oldwalkers, that is not to say he shouldn't be good at those things. However, its one thing to have him a better mind mage then a mid to late twenties Jace or a better fire mage then a similarity aged Chandra. It is quite another thing for him to better then his fellow Oldwalkers at their specialities ala a better Time Mage then millenium old Teferi, a better Fire Mage then a millenium and half Jaya or a better Lithomancer then six millenium old Nahiri. If they are planning on on writing a convincing defeat for him, that doesn't involve some serious ***pulls.
<_<
I would argue that no human should ever be a better fire mage than even the lowliest of dragons. No matter how awesome and quippy Jaya is.
That is acceptable point but I think the main point stands Bolas should not be better then every other Oldwalker at their supposed specialty. If the plan is to setup a defeat that doesn't involve lots of screaming about plotholes and PIS. We already got some of that from Hour of Devastation.
I should note Chandra did cause Bolas some discomfort. So you expect Jaya with roughly 50 times the experience and as Chandra's master to do a better then that and actually cause some damage. Its not like Bolas doesn't have a massive list of other skills and powers to fall back on.
I wouldn't consider Reality Warping the same as Time Manipulation.
Tamiyo's main ability requires prep and access to her scrolls. If you randomly attacked her she can manipulate time.
Teferi can always manipulate time, I am sure he can do more with prep as well but he is not dependent on scrolls or prep to slow time, speed it up or freeze it.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
That is what funny. I thought the whole point of going from Oldwalkers to Neowalkers was Oldwalkers were OP. I mean we all know the real reason is they wanted color specific face characters. But I swear I have read Urza getting a beatdown from a Nonwalker far more then I have seen Jace get beat up by a Nonwalker.
Radiant is giving Urza a no holds bar beatdown meanwhile Jace is pimpslapping around Azor like its easy. Millennium of experience count for nothing for Azor.
Baron Sengir was putting the Fear of God in Serra and Feroz (Two Oldwalkers), meanwhile Eldrazi Titans are going down to Maximized Fireballs and the Power of Friendship.
Nine Oldwalkers step to Yawgmoth in his house and only two make it out alive and they actually had a plan. Five Gatewatch members face Bolas in his house tired and with no plan, no one dies, he lets them go. Jace gets a powerup and a new girlfriend a few months later and Gideon gets a shoulder injury.
How many times do you read a story where the locals do absolutely nothing to the plot while the Gatewatch (and thus Walkers do all the heavy lifting). First, two chapters of Dominaria had the locals chip in a warm bed and one illusion spell while a recovering Gideon and Liliana did all the real work. Meanwhile, the Weatherlight crew dominated the narrative for quite awhile with no Walker in sight.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
As for walkers having too much plot armor in the story, that is a problem, but it's worth mentioning the following:
1.) The Gatewatch couldn't have defeated the Eldrazi without Ugin's information, Zendikar's massive amount of mana or the hedron network. Zendikar had the conditions for them to roast the Titans. On Innistrad, things were different, so they would have all died to Emrakul if she didn't intervene herself.
2.) Thassa won out over Kiora in the power department and could have easily killed her if her curiosity didn't get the better of her.
3.) We still don't know what Bolas wants with Ravnica, or why he thinks the Gatewatch can be useful (from a story perspective).
4.) Elspeth was murdered by Heliod, and Ajani couldn't save her. She can come back, but that's because of the plane's metaphysics, and not because she's a walker.
5.) The Gatewatch were almost helpless when they had to confront the Gods on Amonkhet. The exception was Nissa, who probably has one of the most OP abilities in the Magic Multiverse, which is leyline manipulation.
Damaged, a Destroyed Plane is a Plane that one cannot reasonably hope to recover...Mirrodin, Serra's Realm, etc.
It really doesn't matter. Eldrazi Titans that takes Three Oldwalkers to contain and hundreds of years of prep. Should not be dropped by Walkers who are now supposedly weaker by a maximized Fireball. If you hype a threat up that much I expect a better and more clever solution then that.
Your point seems to be its not bad because Gods can still be a challenge there is not a problem. My argument was non Gods could sufficiently challenge Oldwalkers who are presumably more powerful then Neowalkers. There should be more threats that a Neowalker cannot just walk over is my point.
Bolas can say whatever he wants it doesn't make him not committing PIS unless his plan absolutely critically requires each Gatewatch member. The point is if you are going to have your leads be so arrogant to attack Bolas with no plan then they should pay a hire price then some temp memory loss and a shoulder injury.
And the point still remains, the Neowalkers are presumably far weaker and yet how many challenges can the average mortal on any plane give them. How many nonwalkers are actually relevant these days compared to the Weatherlight crew who made themselves useful. You expect to see more of them considering the massive power nerf and yet most of the normals on these planes are irrelevant.