So, after all this time and the hype, I felt that Jodah was rather meh. I mean, I haven't read the old material with him just recaps and such, but from what everyone said, he seemed super hyped.
Also, Ajani seemed rather pointless here. If he only showed up to meet up with the gatewatch and go elsewhere, what was the point of meeting with Jhoira and the Weatherlight, especially as he already knew where he was supposed to meet the gatewatch?
Whether she knew or didn't know about a clause within the contract is still the worst thing for the end result. In both versions, she is using the gatewatch to achieve her goal and this is with knowledge that Nicol Bolas helped broker the contracts with those demons. I'm still siding with Nissa on this one as the more pragmatic choice would be to not kill the demon. As there is the risk of a potential problem placed by Nicol Bolas through the contracts and completing the contract sets the gatewatch and Liliana more importantly back. Its like Chandra's suggestion on repeat from Kaladesh, "Lets just walk into his trap if there is one, its not like Nicol Bolas thought this might happen or would have a contingency plan." (abridged version)
Possibly, but this argues from a consequentialist ethical perspective that I simply do not share. More importantly, Nissa did not argue that killing the demon would help Nicol Bolas directly; she argued (as you quoted) that Liliana would become a threat as big as Bolas. Which, frankly, is not true. Even without the demons, I don't think Liliana is in Bolas's league. I grant Nissa full leeway in light of her very clear mental and physical exhaustion, but she was not really correct.
If you argue pragmatically, the choice would be to kill the demon. Nowhere has it been shown (to my knowledge) that anyone but Liliana knows that Bolas was involved in the contract. Jace might have known, but there's certainly no indication that Nissa knew. So the argument boils down to, "Kill the demon because that makes an ally more powerful," and, "Don't kill the demon because it may lead to a worse situation." Both arguments have their merits, but the second argument is not a pragmatic argument. Also recall that Nissa was not merely disagreeing with Liliana over their priorities. She wanted Liliana kicked out of the Gatewatch because... she was trying to kill multiple birds (i.e., the Gatewatch mandate AND killing her demons) with one stone? It's a bit hypocritical of her considering that the Gatewatch came about by trying to help Nissa with a personal goal, no? (Saving Zendikar.)
Am I letting Liliana off here? Certainly not. She messed up, and good, and it's going to have bad consequences both for herself personally and for others who relied on her (currently Gideon, mostly). I am just pointing out that Liliana has been, at least since the fight with Bolas, very open about her plans and attitudes, and Nissa was the one who left the Gatewatch willingly because she didn't trust her. By any view of the situation with Bolas at the end of the Dominaria story, Liliana isn't joining Bolas willingly. It may have been her fault, but it was not her choice.
If Liliana could fight back Emrakul for a long while before the Chain Veil became too much for her, since she didn't have access to its full power via killing demons, that is a reasonable assumption on Nissa's part in saying she would be a larger threat like Nicol Bolas. As its always been clear that Liliana is a liability.
The gatewatch was formed to protect a plane and all of its inhabitants from a threat. The gatewatch was not formed for demon extermination so one person could gain power. The reason it was formed is for altruistic cause, not a selfish one. Which is where the dissonance between most of the founding gatewatch members (excluding Jace) and Liliana comes in. Nissa's personal goal was also shared not just by the Gatewatch, but many of the inhabitants of the plane which is "Stop the Eldrazi".
Yeah Liliana wants to open up about her plans now after getting thrashed by Nicol Bolas yet her view of the situation is so terrible. She only sees it as a win for her (killing Razaketh) with a minor setback (the calamity and deaths on Amonkhet).
Liliana joining Nicol Bolas, by choice or not, still is harmful to the Gatewatch and sets them back. She is now more of a reflection of her brother Josu Vess and Belzenok and the reasons are still by her actions in both cases.
The missing artifact is definitely not the Blackblade. Based on the story, the missing artifact would have still been in the confines of the Academy because the Cabal agent wouldn't have been able to smuggle it out yet. It's presumably whatever the art right around that part of the story is. It can't be Blackblade because we already know the Cabal has that, and the Weatherlight crew also already knows that.
Does anyone know what the artifact in tolaria west was?
Are you asking about the artifact used against our Heroes or the missing artifact?
I was under the impression it was the same item. But the answer to either would be cool
If you read the end of the story where Gideon and Jhoira are speaking, there is a confusing allusion to the artifact Blackblade Reforged pulled from the Cabal spy's head . Maybe the reforged part isn't implicit. The one used by the Cabal spy isn't identified and probably some random wand to focus his dementia magic.
Intersting to note Gideon's revulsion towards the blade and hints/spoilers that he may end up wielding it.
The missing artifact is definitely not the Blackblade. Based on the story, the missing artifact would have still been in the confines of the Academy because the Cabal agent wouldn't have been able to smuggle it out yet. It's presumably whatever the art right around that part of the story is. It can't be Blackblade because we already know the Cabal has that, and the Weatherlight crew also already knows that.
I think you’re wrong. The story starts with Belzenlok getting Black blade and his followers spreading propaganda about how Bezelnok used it. Lily says in the story, “What about ancient artifacts?...Bezelnok wants something old he can use to aggrandize himself.” Then Raff does a spell on the cabal agent’s mind and it reveals Blackblade. Nowhere in the story did it say that the cabal agent wasn’t able to smuggle it out. Quite the opposite; Jodah picks up an empty box, and says, “it’s gone.”
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I agree that the Blackblade section was a little confusingly written. But it seems clear from the rest of the story that the thing that got stolen was the device the Cabal agent used to cast his magic. But the information about Blackblade was what they got out of the agent's mind, that they think they can use to kill Belzenlok.
I'm really enjoying the story, it seems to be doing a good job balancing the large cast of characters (though I would have liked more Jodah development in this chapter -- hopefully it's coming up soon). Excited to see the confluence of the Weatherlight/Gatewatch story arcs here.
Am i the only one who thinks Jace is only arriving in Dominaria in the last chapter? It seems fitting that he arrives at the same time that Liliana leaves.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BWG
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
So comments
Ajani shows up to cameo, scold Lili and Gideon and then Peace Out to recruit more allies? He hasn't already rounded some up? Also refuses to stop a Demon from conquering a plane? Good Stuff.
Karn won't talk to Jhoira cause of Venser? Venser? Jhoira barely knows Venser. Venser is a terrible reason for this friendship to be on the rocks.
Jodah is incompetent and still petty about Walkers? Really? I can see this before the Mending where even the best Mage would still be outclassed by an Oldwalker but nowadays Neowalkers aren't immortal and aren't even close to Godlike. Grow Up. I don't like Jodah so fine by me with him being pathetic. Oldwalkers are all gone and Jodah cannot even do the bare minimum (protect dangerous artifacts) from Belzenlok. No wonder the Oldwalkers were needed you aren't up to snuff.
5 Issues for a mention of Karn, 6 Issues to finally get to Teferi. I repeat what I said before I can see Wells is a fan of Jhoira. I am still dubious on other Legendary Dominarians.
In the last scene, they say that Blackblade is already in Stronghold.
Right, the spy(Thom) smuggled the Blackblade to the stronghold. They got information from the brain spell while interrogating him about the stolen artifact.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Am i the only one who thinks Jace is only arriving in Dominaria in the last chapter? It seems fitting that he arrives at the same time that Liliana leaves.
I think most people think that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Karn won't talk to Jhoira cause of Venser? Venser? Jhoira barely knows Venser. Venser is a terrible reason for this friendship to be on the rocks.
Jhoira mentions in the story that she knew Venser, they were both at the academy so there is clearly history there. Besides, Karn probably feels a considerable degree of guilt at surviving at the expense of Venser. It's reasonable.
It's totally reasonable for Jhoira to be in the spotlight at present, too. She is the one responsible for 'getting the band back together'. You can't just jump to the good stuff straight away. Wells is making the story feasible and organic, rather than forced and stunted. So far so good, IMO.
Karn won't talk to Jhoira cause of Venser? Venser? Jhoira barely knows Venser. Venser is a terrible reason for this friendship to be on the rocks.
Jhoira mentions in the story that she knew Venser, they were both at the academy so there is clearly history there. Besides, Karn probably feels a considerable degree of guilt at surviving at the expense of Venser. It's reasonable.
It's totally reasonable for Jhoira to be in the spotlight at present, too. She is the one responsible for 'getting the band back together'. You can't just jump to the good stuff straight away. Wells is making the story feasible and organic, rather than forced and stunted. So far so good, IMO.
I am not saying she didn't know Venser. I am saying there was nothing in canon about Venser being especially close to Jhoira so much so that Venser killing himself to save Karn means Karn would come back to Dominaria and not talk to Jhoira. Although the real question about Venser is why he didn't age in 60 years.
As for Jhoira being the natural fit not really. You could have picked any classic Dominaria character to be an active force in getting things done and picking up the band. Wells and WOTC chose Jhoira sure but that is hardly the only way to execute this story.
As for Karn, this is hardly the first time he got friends killed or tortured through his actions or lack of actions. His Pacifism cost the Weatherlight Crew numerous times.
Karn won't talk to Jhoira cause of Venser? Venser? Jhoira barely knows Venser. Venser is a terrible reason for this friendship to be on the rocks.
Jhoira mentions in the story that she knew Venser, they were both at the academy so there is clearly history there. Besides, Karn probably feels a considerable degree of guilt at surviving at the expense of Venser. It's reasonable.
It's totally reasonable for Jhoira to be in the spotlight at present, too. She is the one responsible for 'getting the band back together'. You can't just jump to the good stuff straight away. Wells is making the story feasible and organic, rather than forced and stunted. So far so good, IMO.
I am not saying she didn't know Venser. I am saying there was nothing in canon about Venser being especially close to Jhoira so much so that Venser killing himself to save Karn means Karn would come back to Dominaria and not talk to Jhoira.
As for Karn, this is hardly the first time he got friends killed or tortured through his actions or lack of actions. His Pacifism cost the Weatherlight Crew numerous times.
But he was especially close to Jhoira. And Jhoira is clearly well aware that Venser held a flame for her. Either way, it's survivor's guilt, in a nutshell.
Who knows I simply don't find Venser dying a compelling Reason for Karn not to talk to Jhoira.
Nor do I think this type of story requires Jhoira to be central. I find all these old male characters out of character quite frankly for Jhoira to shine. I mean Jodah is twiddling his thumbs while the World Burns and teaching at Tolaria? He hated Urza and lambasted Teferi for being too like Urza. Now they are out of the way and under his watch Belzenlok is riding roughshod over the plane. What happened to protecting the little guys? And before you say he grew up about Tolaria, he is still hating on Walkers, this time Neowalkers who should be a great deal weaker then he is so I don't buy that.
Raff is my type of guy. Too bad he's probably not going to be seen again after DOM.
Also, I get that Teferi is powerful, but once you establish that your team can literally stop time for a meaningful period, that should pretty much be the solution to every single problem in their quests except facing the final boss of each story chapter.
Jhoira spent three books with Venser, and she saw him grow from a nobody to a brave and noble good guy. She could totally see him doing something like that to save Karn, but she'd still be sad about it, since he was a recent friend who died for an old friend.
The stolen artifact was still in the tower. The distraction was to get into the tower. The team realized that the agent may still be in the tower. They confront. Wizards shows art of some artifact. The box is empty. This can't be reasonably construed to mean the stolen artifact was the Blackblade. Whatever was stolen was still there in the tower.
Jhoira seems unsurprised by New Phyrexia. I would assume she hasn't seen Karn since he disappeared into the rift, and only Koth, Venser, and Elspeth knew about Karn on New Phyrexia. Did I forget Elspeth telling Ajani? How would Ajani know? And how would Jhoira know about New Phyrexia and Karn being bound there, such that she would be relieved that he is free? To be relieved he's free, she would have to know he was bound by the Phyrexians, and I don't know how that would be possible.
Jhoira seems unsurprised by New Phyrexia. I would assume she hasn't seen Karn since he disappeared into the rift, and only Koth, Venser, and Elspeth knew about Karn on New Phyrexia. Did I forget Elspeth telling Ajani? How would Ajani know? And how would Jhoira know about New Phyrexia and Karn being bound there, such that she would be relieved that he is free? To be relieved he's free, she would have to know he was bound by the Phyrexians, and I don't know how that would be possible.
The wording makes it seem like Ajani has met Karn and was told the entirety by him. Also she doesn't have to be relieved he is free, just back, because he left in a panic.
Jhoira spent three books with Venser, and she saw him grow from a nobody to a brave and noble good guy. She could totally see him doing something like that to save Karn, but she'd still be sad about it, since he was a recent friend who died for an old friend.
The stolen artifact was still in the tower. The distraction was to get into the tower. The team realized that the agent may still be in the tower. They confront. Wizards shows art of some artifact. The box is empty. This can't be reasonably construed to mean the stolen artifact was the Blackblade. Whatever was stolen was still there in the tower.
Jhoira seems unsurprised by New Phyrexia. I would assume she hasn't seen Karn since he disappeared into the rift, and only Koth, Venser, and Elspeth knew about Karn on New Phyrexia. Did I forget Elspeth telling Ajani? How would Ajani know? And how would Jhoira know about New Phyrexia and Karn being bound there, such that she would be relieved that he is free? To be relieved he's free, she would have to know he was bound by the Phyrexians, and I don't know how that would be possible.
Her being sad about it isn't the issue. Its more Karn deciding not to talk to Jhoira purely cause Venser sacrificed himself for Karn.
Again her knowing Venser not in dispute her being especially close to Venser though that is pretty debatable.
There is also a 60 year gap where we not know what happened with the characters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
In the last scene, they say that Blackblade is already in Stronghold.
Right, the spy(Thom) smuggled the Blackblade to the stronghold. They got information from the brain spell while interrogating him about the stolen artifact.
Except Thom never left the tower after he snuck in (and if he was there to steal the Blackblade, and had managed to do so, why on earth would he come/be sent back?).
Beyond that Episode One of the Domianria story specifies that Needle (the agent who brought the Blackblade in) was infiltrating New Argive, not Tolaria West.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Also, Ajani seemed rather pointless here. If he only showed up to meet up with the gatewatch and go elsewhere, what was the point of meeting with Jhoira and the Weatherlight, especially as he already knew where he was supposed to meet the gatewatch?
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Case in point:
The gatewatch was formed to protect a plane and all of its inhabitants from a threat. The gatewatch was not formed for demon extermination so one person could gain power. The reason it was formed is for altruistic cause, not a selfish one. Which is where the dissonance between most of the founding gatewatch members (excluding Jace) and Liliana comes in. Nissa's personal goal was also shared not just by the Gatewatch, but many of the inhabitants of the plane which is "Stop the Eldrazi".
Yeah Liliana wants to open up about her plans now after getting thrashed by Nicol Bolas yet her view of the situation is so terrible. She only sees it as a win for her (killing Razaketh) with a minor setback (the calamity and deaths on Amonkhet).
Liliana joining Nicol Bolas, by choice or not, still is harmful to the Gatewatch and sets them back. She is now more of a reflection of her brother Josu Vess and Belzenok and the reasons are still by her actions in both cases.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
If you read the end of the story where Gideon and Jhoira are speaking, there is a confusing allusion to the artifact Blackblade Reforged pulled from the Cabal spy's head . Maybe the reforged part isn't implicit. The one used by the Cabal spy isn't identified and probably some random wand to focus his dementia magic.
Intersting to note Gideon's revulsion towards the blade and hints/spoilers that he may end up wielding it.
I think you’re wrong. The story starts with Belzenlok getting Black blade and his followers spreading propaganda about how Bezelnok used it. Lily says in the story, “What about ancient artifacts?...Bezelnok wants something old he can use to aggrandize himself.” Then Raff does a spell on the cabal agent’s mind and it reveals Blackblade. Nowhere in the story did it say that the cabal agent wasn’t able to smuggle it out. Quite the opposite; Jodah picks up an empty box, and says, “it’s gone.”
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm really enjoying the story, it seems to be doing a good job balancing the large cast of characters (though I would have liked more Jodah development in this chapter -- hopefully it's coming up soon). Excited to see the confluence of the Weatherlight/Gatewatch story arcs here.
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
Ajani shows up to cameo, scold Lili and Gideon and then Peace Out to recruit more allies? He hasn't already rounded some up? Also refuses to stop a Demon from conquering a plane? Good Stuff.
Karn won't talk to Jhoira cause of Venser? Venser? Jhoira barely knows Venser. Venser is a terrible reason for this friendship to be on the rocks.
Jodah is incompetent and still petty about Walkers? Really? I can see this before the Mending where even the best Mage would still be outclassed by an Oldwalker but nowadays Neowalkers aren't immortal and aren't even close to Godlike. Grow Up. I don't like Jodah so fine by me with him being pathetic. Oldwalkers are all gone and Jodah cannot even do the bare minimum (protect dangerous artifacts) from Belzenlok. No wonder the Oldwalkers were needed you aren't up to snuff.
5 Issues for a mention of Karn, 6 Issues to finally get to Teferi. I repeat what I said before I can see Wells is a fan of Jhoira. I am still dubious on other Legendary Dominarians.
Right, the spy(Thom) smuggled the Blackblade to the stronghold. They got information from the brain spell while interrogating him about the stolen artifact.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I think most people think that.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Flavour text of said soul-drinker: Hold my beer.
Jhoira mentions in the story that she knew Venser, they were both at the academy so there is clearly history there. Besides, Karn probably feels a considerable degree of guilt at surviving at the expense of Venser. It's reasonable.
It's totally reasonable for Jhoira to be in the spotlight at present, too. She is the one responsible for 'getting the band back together'. You can't just jump to the good stuff straight away. Wells is making the story feasible and organic, rather than forced and stunted. So far so good, IMO.
I am not saying she didn't know Venser. I am saying there was nothing in canon about Venser being especially close to Jhoira so much so that Venser killing himself to save Karn means Karn would come back to Dominaria and not talk to Jhoira. Although the real question about Venser is why he didn't age in 60 years.
As for Jhoira being the natural fit not really. You could have picked any classic Dominaria character to be an active force in getting things done and picking up the band. Wells and WOTC chose Jhoira sure but that is hardly the only way to execute this story.
As for Karn, this is hardly the first time he got friends killed or tortured through his actions or lack of actions. His Pacifism cost the Weatherlight Crew numerous times.
But he was especially close to Jhoira. And Jhoira is clearly well aware that Venser held a flame for her. Either way, it's survivor's guilt, in a nutshell.
Nor do I think this type of story requires Jhoira to be central. I find all these old male characters out of character quite frankly for Jhoira to shine. I mean Jodah is twiddling his thumbs while the World Burns and teaching at Tolaria? He hated Urza and lambasted Teferi for being too like Urza. Now they are out of the way and under his watch Belzenlok is riding roughshod over the plane. What happened to protecting the little guys? And before you say he grew up about Tolaria, he is still hating on Walkers, this time Neowalkers who should be a great deal weaker then he is so I don't buy that.
Also, I get that Teferi is powerful, but once you establish that your team can literally stop time for a meaningful period, that should pretty much be the solution to every single problem in their quests except facing the final boss of each story chapter.
The stolen artifact was still in the tower. The distraction was to get into the tower. The team realized that the agent may still be in the tower. They confront. Wizards shows art of some artifact. The box is empty. This can't be reasonably construed to mean the stolen artifact was the Blackblade. Whatever was stolen was still there in the tower.
Jhoira seems unsurprised by New Phyrexia. I would assume she hasn't seen Karn since he disappeared into the rift, and only Koth, Venser, and Elspeth knew about Karn on New Phyrexia. Did I forget Elspeth telling Ajani? How would Ajani know? And how would Jhoira know about New Phyrexia and Karn being bound there, such that she would be relieved that he is free? To be relieved he's free, she would have to know he was bound by the Phyrexians, and I don't know how that would be possible.
Her being sad about it isn't the issue. Its more Karn deciding not to talk to Jhoira purely cause Venser sacrificed himself for Karn.
Again her knowing Venser not in dispute her being especially close to Venser though that is pretty debatable.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Except Thom never left the tower after he snuck in (and if he was there to steal the Blackblade, and had managed to do so, why on earth would he come/be sent back?).
Beyond that Episode One of the Domianria story specifies that Needle (the agent who brought the Blackblade in) was infiltrating New Argive, not Tolaria West.