I am still on the boat that Angrath is not evil, he was pushed into a situation where he had zero choice in what he did, There was obviously something keeping him on Ixalan, The Local Governments were unwilling and unable to aid him, and nobody else had any information on how he could escape. His only conceivable plan is total destruction until you can leave.
Angarth, Sorin, Vraska, Tezzeret, and Lily have all committed murder as a means to an end. You can try to justify and rationalize those means, but so can The Godfather, Walter White, and Urza. Also, it seems that Angarth could explore other alternatives to mass murder when trying to escape. If I was in a world and trying to escape, I wouldn’t try to kill everyone and see if that would let me leave.
Is there a particular reason you keep spelling "Angrath" as "Angarth", despite seeing the first spelling in other posts?
Angrath became desperate. He tried more civilized means first (IIRC, he sought help from the Sun Empire, and like with the Torrezon refugees, they ignored his pleas for help), and those didn't work, so he turned to the means we see him employ in the story. Most people in his situation would likely devolve in a similar manner, because unlike the other people you listed, Angrath has children he needed to get back to. Also, he's been there for over a decade, which would drive anyone in his situation insane. Also, unlike Liliana, Angrath's problems weren't caused by him. He had no idea Ixalan would trap him, and he wasn't the one who created the Immortal Sun.
Liliana's problems, on the other hand, have all been due to her actions. She was the one who took shortcuts to heal her brother, subsequently turning him into a lich. The Raven Man encouraged her, but she ultimately made the decision. She was the one who abandoned her family, and by extension Caligo Forest, to their fate. She was the one who agreed to the demon pacts with Bolas as the broker. She decided to hang on to the Chain Veil and to mistreat Jace.
Vraska was going to kill Jace, so I’m not buy that all her murders are justified. Angarth could have tried to solve clues on his own without committing mass murder. Tezzeret was used by Bolas, and tried to fight against him. Sorin let a vampire kill a man who helped them. Lily may be selfish, but so are the rest of them, and killing off demons is a good thing, and she was willing to fight to the death against Emrakul.
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Angarth could have tried to solve clues on his own without committing mass murder.
And how do you propose Angrath "solve clues on his own" about a mysterious artifact that no-one at the time could find? Even the River Heralds, who were tasked with guarding Orazca and had the abilities that allowed them to sense where it might have been, didn't know where it was until Kumena put in the effort. Bolas gave Vraska the thaumatic compass because she would have never found the Immortal Sun without it.
No **** Angrath is selfish, but unless he had Jace levels of analytical talent, he had no way of escaping. All he knew was the Immortal Sun was probably the thing trapping him on the plane, and he wasn't going to get to it without violence.
I'm not arguing for the others, because they (and Liliana) have all been horrible people under the best of circumstances, but we've never been introduced to Angrath before he was marooned on Ixalan.
How does murdering people help you find a mysterious artifact? It’s just an illogical step, and one out of anger, not purpose. Other steps could include studying, interviewing people, exploring, etc. When a detective is working on a case they can’t figure out they don’t say, “I can’t seem to crack this case. The next logical step is for me to go on a murdering spree.”
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Was anyone else disappointed that Gideon didnt become Korlash, Heir to blackblade when he picked up the sword....it would have been perfect.
I wasn't, because there was no build-up to it. The blade itself doesn't just corrupt like that, and Gideon would have no reason to have a name change like that so soon. Also, it's too soon for Gideon to die, and Korlash is a zombie.
How does murdering people help you find a mysterious artifact? It’s just an illogical step, and one out of anger, not purpose. Other steps could include studying, interviewing people, exploring, etc. When a detective is working on a case they can’t figure out they don’t say, “I can’t seem to crack this case. The next logical step is for me to go on a murdering spree.”
Angrath is a Minotaur, and based on his portrayal, he lacks the patience needed to do any of the stuff you're saying he should do. We'd need to get more details on how he's spending all of those 14 (?) years on Ixalan, but we do at least know that he didn't just immediately try to burn everything down. At some point though, he gave up on being reasonable and turned to piracy and murder, and grew to hate the plane. When the Immortal Sun was removed from Ixalan, the first thing he did was declare how much he hated the plane (and the people in it) for keeping him trapped, and then he left immediately after.
My point is that some of us can sympathize with Angrath for why he's been doing the things he's been doing. I cannot sympathize with Liliana, as much as I defend her at times, because she was basically the architect of her own downfall.
Like a Gatewatch member would ever suffer permanent consequences...it be nice to see Gideon gradually corrupted by the blade but I seriously doubt WOTC will ever do anything.
Most people in his situation would likely devolve in a similar manner, because unlike the other people you listed, Angrath has children he needed to get back to.
I wouldn't say missing your children is a pass for killing innocent bystanders. Understanding the root of a certain behaviour should not necessarily lead to condoning it.
Having all that said, Angrath was really just simply doing piratey stuff, looking for whatever would help him get off the plane. Considering the sun empire turned away the refugees when they arrived on the continent, they're basically at least partly at fault for turning the pirates against them.
Do we already know what the round thing hovering between Bolas' horns is? (I'm fairly sure it's not a Gem of Becoming. The gem is probably just modeled after the thing.) Because in his M19 artwork, Nicol Bolas, the Arisen, he is shown above the Talon gates, which MIGHT imply he's shown right after his ascension fighting the demonic leviathan. This in turn would imply that he's had that floaty thing for a while now, unless they pulled an Urza's Ruinous Blast on us again.
Just says one of the Cabal remnants used the resurgence of black mana after the Mending to try to summon a demon to speak with Kuberr, but Belzenlok came through, beat them up when they tried to command him, and used dementia magic to heal/twist some of them into his lackeys. Then they set about heading to Urborg and getting up to general no-goodery. He is not as powerful as Nevinyrral or Lim-Dûl but can use dementia space to summon nightmares, teleport short distances, and drive people insane.
Didn't they make it a point in the story that dementia magic doesn't work on Gideon due to his shield? Similarly, Liliana is noted as being particularly resistant to dementia magic as well. As such, Belzenlok could have easily been using dementia magic in the final fight. It just didn't affect his opponents.
That leaves Belzenlok with short range teleportation for a combat trick. He evidently didn't need that for Gideon, and Liliana didn't so much as fight as she just grabbed the Blackblade's hilt.
Right so he could have used it to avoid what Lili did to him.
You are thinking of the direct uses though there are plenty of indirect ways to hit Gideon like dropping the roof on him. Sure it won't hurt him but he still has to dig his way out of the ruins.
Not to mention Bolas showed the damage immunity can be overcome.
Right so he could have used it to avoid what Lili did to him.
You are thinking of the direct uses though there are plenty of indirect ways to hit Gideon like dropping the roof on him. Sure it won't hurt him but he still has to dig his way out of the ruins.
Not to mention Bolas showed the damage immunity can be overcome.
He could have avoided Lili grabbing the Blackblade with short range teleportation, sure, but that would require him to have been paying attention to Lili when she grabbed for the blade. At that particular moment, Belzenlok had just countered Gideon's latest lunge and was about to strike his now prone foe, while Lili had already show that she couldn't hurt him with her own abilities.
As for the roof 'idea,' they were fighting in the stronghold's court. With no roof above to drop, I fail to see how short-range self teleportation or dementia magic would allow him to execute such a plan.
Finally, yes, Gideon's invulnerability has been overcome previously. Bolas, who kept tabs on and has plans for the Gatewatch, had two methods (keep bashing him against a wall and out of the fight and a spell literally made to break through it), while Ob Nixilis (whose thoughts indicate prior experience with invulnerable opponents and whose fight with Gideon and keen mind let him deduce how Gideon's invulnerability worked) had one.
Belzenlok, on the other hand, only ever triggered Gideon's invulnerability through spell attacks (easily giving the impression of Shanna's similar ability), which he stopped using, and he clearly had no foreknowledge of Gideon's invulnerability. As such, I can easily accept that he would attempt to strike down Gideon in that situation rather than pay attention to the necromancer who's spells couldn't hurt him and who he knows has little to no martial experience.
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Is there a particular reason you keep spelling "Angrath" as "Angarth", despite seeing the first spelling in other posts?
Angrath became desperate. He tried more civilized means first (IIRC, he sought help from the Sun Empire, and like with the Torrezon refugees, they ignored his pleas for help), and those didn't work, so he turned to the means we see him employ in the story. Most people in his situation would likely devolve in a similar manner, because unlike the other people you listed, Angrath has children he needed to get back to. Also, he's been there for over a decade, which would drive anyone in his situation insane. Also, unlike Liliana, Angrath's problems weren't caused by him. He had no idea Ixalan would trap him, and he wasn't the one who created the Immortal Sun.
Liliana's problems, on the other hand, have all been due to her actions. She was the one who took shortcuts to heal her brother, subsequently turning him into a lich. The Raven Man encouraged her, but she ultimately made the decision. She was the one who abandoned her family, and by extension Caligo Forest, to their fate. She was the one who agreed to the demon pacts with Bolas as the broker. She decided to hang on to the Chain Veil and to mistreat Jace.
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And how do you propose Angrath "solve clues on his own" about a mysterious artifact that no-one at the time could find? Even the River Heralds, who were tasked with guarding Orazca and had the abilities that allowed them to sense where it might have been, didn't know where it was until Kumena put in the effort. Bolas gave Vraska the thaumatic compass because she would have never found the Immortal Sun without it.
No **** Angrath is selfish, but unless he had Jace levels of analytical talent, he had no way of escaping. All he knew was the Immortal Sun was probably the thing trapping him on the plane, and he wasn't going to get to it without violence.
I'm not arguing for the others, because they (and Liliana) have all been horrible people under the best of circumstances, but we've never been introduced to Angrath before he was marooned on Ixalan.
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I wasn't, because there was no build-up to it. The blade itself doesn't just corrupt like that, and Gideon would have no reason to have a name change like that so soon. Also, it's too soon for Gideon to die, and Korlash is a zombie.
Angrath is a Minotaur, and based on his portrayal, he lacks the patience needed to do any of the stuff you're saying he should do. We'd need to get more details on how he's spending all of those 14 (?) years on Ixalan, but we do at least know that he didn't just immediately try to burn everything down. At some point though, he gave up on being reasonable and turned to piracy and murder, and grew to hate the plane. When the Immortal Sun was removed from Ixalan, the first thing he did was declare how much he hated the plane (and the people in it) for keeping him trapped, and then he left immediately after.
My point is that some of us can sympathize with Angrath for why he's been doing the things he's been doing. I cannot sympathize with Liliana, as much as I defend her at times, because she was basically the architect of her own downfall.
The Blackblade blurb posted on Twitter says that Korlash has already come and gone.
I wouldn't say missing your children is a pass for killing innocent bystanders. Understanding the root of a certain behaviour should not necessarily lead to condoning it.
Having all that said, Angrath was really just simply doing piratey stuff, looking for whatever would help him get off the plane. Considering the sun empire turned away the refugees when they arrived on the continent, they're basically at least partly at fault for turning the pirates against them.
Also do we know Angrath was killing innocents seems most of the enemies are Pirates, Vampire Knights and Sun Empire Soldiers...not exactly innocents.
That's what I wanted to express with the second point but couldn't word properly, haha.
Overall, I wouldn't count Angrath as being "evil". But I wouldn't consider him justified either.
Do we already know what the round thing hovering between Bolas' horns is? (I'm fairly sure it's not a Gem of Becoming. The gem is probably just modeled after the thing.) Because in his M19 artwork, Nicol Bolas, the Arisen, he is shown above the Talon gates, which MIGHT imply he's shown right after his ascension fighting the demonic leviathan. This in turn would imply that he's had that floaty thing for a while now, unless they pulled an Urza's Ruinous Blast on us again.Whoops, meant to post this in the M19 thread.
I believe there is a compilation posted on Magic Facebook page.
That leaves Belzenlok with short range teleportation for a combat trick. He evidently didn't need that for Gideon, and Liliana didn't so much as fight as she just grabbed the Blackblade's hilt.
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You are thinking of the direct uses though there are plenty of indirect ways to hit Gideon like dropping the roof on him. Sure it won't hurt him but he still has to dig his way out of the ruins.
Not to mention Bolas showed the damage immunity can be overcome.
He could have avoided Lili grabbing the Blackblade with short range teleportation, sure, but that would require him to have been paying attention to Lili when she grabbed for the blade. At that particular moment, Belzenlok had just countered Gideon's latest lunge and was about to strike his now prone foe, while Lili had already show that she couldn't hurt him with her own abilities.
As for the roof 'idea,' they were fighting in the stronghold's court. With no roof above to drop, I fail to see how short-range self teleportation or dementia magic would allow him to execute such a plan.
Finally, yes, Gideon's invulnerability has been overcome previously. Bolas, who kept tabs on and has plans for the Gatewatch, had two methods (keep bashing him against a wall and out of the fight and a spell literally made to break through it), while Ob Nixilis (whose thoughts indicate prior experience with invulnerable opponents and whose fight with Gideon and keen mind let him deduce how Gideon's invulnerability worked) had one.
Belzenlok, on the other hand, only ever triggered Gideon's invulnerability through spell attacks (easily giving the impression of Shanna's similar ability), which he stopped using, and he clearly had no foreknowledge of Gideon's invulnerability. As such, I can easily accept that he would attempt to strike down Gideon in that situation rather than pay attention to the necromancer who's spells couldn't hurt him and who he knows has little to no martial experience.