Isperia's case was vastly different from Azor's - the Azorius (relevant members who were right under the Guild's internal systems) took active efforts to convince her to take charge of the guild, whereas Azor most likely imposed his laws on any plane he deemed chaotic, not its citizens. (I find it hard to see how the Rakdos and/or Gruul would have personally petitioned Azor to set up the Guildpact, they were the guilds that seemed way better off without it then with it.)
Azor deemed "law-bringing to all worlds" as his purpose, and that was my point; a sphinx could act out of preference even when s/he considers something more important than being aloof and isolated. I am solely interpreting Azor's motives base on what he had done/traveled, its effectiveness is of course subject to discussion.
You're assuming that the Living Guildpact's Judgment would be eternal. On top of Jace possibly changing his mind later on, there's no guarantee the sentence (via the Guildpact's remaining power) might hold after his death (considering the first Guildpact didn't actually manage to have a literal contingency capable of holding out until the Living one took over). In the regard that Jace might not have made the best judgment and hoping that he returns later to rectify it we do agree, but all because he set an "otherwise eternity" statement as a "just in case" while he was under mental distress (and hence technically not qualified to judge, but he had no freedom in his choice of timeframe at the moment either, considering Ixalan's immediate outside conditions), it's unfair to judge Jace as cruel either.
Given how Guildpact loopholes was capable of being exploited, I don't assume Jace's punishment would be everlasting, at least not until he changed his mind or someone broke it. However, until the said situations happened, Azor's punishment is indeed eternal, a Schrödinger's Cat if you will, because Jace has not reason to change his mind, and the fact that he exiled Azor to a remote island away from all civilization on a non-consequential plane (after the Sun is taken) implies that he has no intention to remember about Azor or improve Azor's chance of meeting people. I don't believe Jace did this without his old trauma at work, because "forget" about something was his preferred way of ridding the problems of his life, here is just a more physical way of making it happen without inducing amnesia on himself; out of sight out of mind.
I don't buy the "insight for potential" concept for Azor though (note that I do understand why it's a torture), using the murderer analogy again (same disclaimer, not the best one, but Azor did set up a genocide contingency to prevent the freedom of choice for the Living Guildpact), if someone thinks he has the potential to be the best murderer (as twisted as that is, it's not an impossible psyche) but is simply stopped because society disagrees (and there are laws around it), isn't it also a torture for said murderer when he is in solitary confinement? To the murderer it is his duty, his higher calling and society has denied him that.
It is still torture, regardless of who we applied it on. We can acknowledge the cruelty of our actions even if it's for the greater good of a society, the goal is to hopefully reduce the need of such action.
HOWEVER, we are also a society without telepath who could correct a person's mind, therefore locking people up is the best thing we could do (and improve overall education and socioeconomic average, but that's an unrelated topic all together). The reason I have issue with Jace was because he is capable of so much more than us Earthling, yet he chose the least productive way to rid of a problem. He didn't exile Azor out of malice, but the result of his action remain a cruel one. Again, I believe his action has a lot to do with both his and Vraska's distain towards Sphinx and Azorius, respectively, WotC willing, he might eventually realize the implication of his judgment.
If society deeming it not a duty/higher calling is considered enough for the murderer's own consideration to be valid, then Jace's judgment that Ravnica Society didn't deem the Azor's actions as valid is along the same lines. Is it unfair that Jace gets to represent Ravnica society just like that? Yes, but reminder Azor himself set up the backup plan to function like that (and rubbed it in with the "genocide plane if winner refuses" on top of that to reinforce that it was intended). I'm not buying Azor didn't think it through and set it up like a senate system (with the Guild Leaders as the senate, especially when I think the Maze had a clause preventing Leaders from participating anyway) when the first Guildpact essentially ran like one, except without an overall leader (mainly because I think the Guilds refused to have one).
If we look at Vryn, where Alhammarret maintains a conflict to protect the Mage Rings, we can assume some sphinxes manage their business by first identifying the greatest objective, and every other facets will be supportive and empowerment, minor conflicts allowed if they serve the greater good. My guess is that Azor also wanted competitions amongst the guild just so the society would not descent into complete ruins like 10,000 years ago. Even without a senate system, the guilds were considered the epitome of ruling government, and they all agree each has functions beneficial to the society; Azorius is the face rule maker, Boros being the police, Golgari manage the waste, Gruul being the chaotic reminder of past, etc. It's not perfect, but it served its purpose at stopping the ancient war and allow the populace to find a place they belong, talents utilized, and ambition fulfilled.
It is surprising that Azor would making Living Guildpact the failsafe, consider his distrust for people, perhaps he was hoping a sphinx to win the maze?
As for the other planes, it's just fluff - Jace can say it because he has the extra perception as a planeswalker himself, but the Guildpact isn't actually capable of punishing Azor for his other "crimes" and Jace doesn't represent those societies. Is it unfair that other societies might get "punished" (or denied their chance to punish) because Jace did what he did? Yes, but Azor also wrote himself to be accountable to each (but not every simultaneously) set of law magic he wrote, I think and that's where all the hypocrisy comes in - even if Jace didn't do it, but some other plane's system punished Azor instead, would it be unfair to Ravnica? This is why I think Azor is the epitome of "Lawful Stupid" - he wrote multiple laws over multiple planes that basically wrote himself into a multiverse criminal (on the technicalities of his own law) and now we're left scrambling to see which plane actually has the right to punish him. You would think someone (especially with a Sphinx) who thinks of law-creating as his higher calling would be able to account for major loopholes like this, right (or at the very least, stay long enough to refine it so it doesn't bite you back eventually).
I want to borrow Gideon's words here, he said PW are those who could always just leave, but they could also choose to stay. Azor is the former, he could just walk away from his problem, and because he never stayed he never learned that he made a mistake. Though I must say chance of a PW telepath who happened to solve the maze appear on Ixalan is very, very low, in most cases Azor would have no issues with people finding the loophole; he's no longer where the people are, and Azor may be the only individual who could (with the Sun's help) summon those he want via hieromancy across the multiverse.
And his colors. WU is the classic color combination where you expect people to make mistakes, then correct them. We do have to wonder if Azor created the laws intended for them to be broken, just so he could punish the sinners, like Catholic God who put forbidden fruits inside Eden with Adam and Eve in it. The encounter in the story is too short for us to know Azor more, but we can guess.
As for the oldwalker topic, yes they were not devoid of feelings and empathy, but most of their feelings (if not all) revolve only themselves and their empathy only extends to extremely small groups relative to everything they could see and have access to. It's not about the lack of having them, it's the scope of those emotions (not variety of emotions, scope) and considering how much oldwalkers know of the multiverse, how much they care about is tiny enough that they are technically all psychopaths to some degree. In Azor's case, multiple planes mean nothing since he has been shown to not actually care about the citizens at all (blaming them for the system's failure along with a contingency that involves killing them all anyway).
Liliana is not the best example here, but we did see her growth during to her time with the Gatewatch and Jace, which is why I'm reluctant to assume Azor, a character we just met with barely any chance to learn about him further, base on his old walker status. With Jaya coming in Dominaria, the passionate red PW might give us more perspective on how some old walkers are capable of remaining sassy. Hell, red mana could make a Phyrexian care.
Azor deemed "law-bringing to all worlds" as his purpose, and that was my point; a sphinx could act out of preference even when s/he considers something more important than being aloof and isolated. I am solely interpreting Azor's motives base on what he had done/traveled, its effectiveness is of course subject to discussion.
Given how Guildpact loopholes was capable of being exploited, I don't assume Jace's punishment would be everlasting, at least not until he changed his mind or someone broke it. However, until the said situations happened, Azor's punishment is indeed eternal, a Schrödinger's Cat if you will, because Jace has not reason to change his mind, and the fact that he exiled Azor to a remote island away from all civilization on a non-consequential plane (after the Sun is taken) implies that he has no intention to remember about Azor or improve Azor's chance of meeting people. I don't believe Jace did this without his old trauma at work, because "forget" about something was his preferred way of ridding the problems of his life, here is just a more physical way of making it happen without inducing amnesia on himself; out of sight out of mind.
It is still torture, regardless of who we applied it on. We can acknowledge the cruelty of our actions even if it's for the greater good of a society, the goal is to hopefully reduce the need of such action.
HOWEVER, we are also a society without telepath who could correct a person's mind, therefore locking people up is the best thing we could do (and improve overall education and socioeconomic average, but that's an unrelated topic all together). The reason I have issue with Jace was because he is capable of so much more than us Earthling, yet he chose the least productive way to rid of a problem. He didn't exile Azor out of malice, but the result of his action remain a cruel one. Again, I believe his action has a lot to do with both his and Vraska's distain towards Sphinx and Azorius, respectively, WotC willing, he might eventually realize the implication of his judgment.
If we look at Vryn, where Alhammarret maintains a conflict to protect the Mage Rings, we can assume some sphinxes manage their business by first identifying the greatest objective, and every other facets will be supportive and empowerment, minor conflicts allowed if they serve the greater good. My guess is that Azor also wanted competitions amongst the guild just so the society would not descent into complete ruins like 10,000 years ago. Even without a senate system, the guilds were considered the epitome of ruling government, and they all agree each has functions beneficial to the society; Azorius is the face rule maker, Boros being the police, Golgari manage the waste, Gruul being the chaotic reminder of past, etc. It's not perfect, but it served its purpose at stopping the ancient war and allow the populace to find a place they belong, talents utilized, and ambition fulfilled.
It is surprising that Azor would making Living Guildpact the failsafe, consider his distrust for people, perhaps he was hoping a sphinx to win the maze?
I want to borrow Gideon's words here, he said PW are those who could always just leave, but they could also choose to stay. Azor is the former, he could just walk away from his problem, and because he never stayed he never learned that he made a mistake. Though I must say chance of a PW telepath who happened to solve the maze appear on Ixalan is very, very low, in most cases Azor would have no issues with people finding the loophole; he's no longer where the people are, and Azor may be the only individual who could (with the Sun's help) summon those he want via hieromancy across the multiverse.
And his colors. WU is the classic color combination where you expect people to make mistakes, then correct them. We do have to wonder if Azor created the laws intended for them to be broken, just so he could punish the sinners, like Catholic God who put forbidden fruits inside Eden with Adam and Eve in it. The encounter in the story is too short for us to know Azor more, but we can guess.
Liliana is not the best example here, but we did see her growth during to her time with the Gatewatch and Jace, which is why I'm reluctant to assume Azor, a character we just met with barely any chance to learn about him further, base on his old walker status. With Jaya coming in Dominaria, the passionate red PW might give us more perspective on how some old walkers are capable of remaining sassy. Hell, red mana could make a Phyrexian care.
I think we've reached the point we need to agree to disagree. I think you might be a bit too fixated on the context of Jace's immediate punishment on Azor. Yes, Jace's action is cruel and it may be torture (I'll have to withhold since don't know enough about Azor on whether he could be bored to death and cannot actually assume either way, the only point is there are enough sphinx examples to prove sentience alone isn't definitive enough to prove boredom will kill Azor), but Jace's action is immediate as of now (as in we basically just read about it). It's unfair to judge him for not acknowledging it immediately after (especially after the whole mental distress part).
Meanwhile Azor outright doesn't acknowledge his own cruelty, he built systems that basically requires everyone to think like him to function effectively and then rants that it didn't work out because others don't think like him. He made a concession to nine other systems (the Guilds) when he set up the first Guildpact but the backup does display those "me or the highway" tendencies. Sure, he left before he could learn his mistakes, but when confronted with them he just went on a rant about how it's not his mistake instead of contemplation and the best example is right on Ixalan - he gifted the Sun (and his Laws) to those he deemed worthy first and when it didn't work out, he didn't stay and figure out how to fix it and instead decided to just transfer it to another faction instead. Guess what? None of them worked out, because Azor's techniques were fundamentally flawed from the start - he built systems to govern people without the consideration of others at all, only himself.
What Azor did was not the straightforward-form of cruelty like Jace, but a more abstract form of it that scars the social hierarchy of societies/planes, but is no less a cruelty. In fact it's probably more, because it's capable of breeding individual straightforward cases like Vraska's (that wasn't even a direct consequence, but a aftermath one). Jace, as a powerful telepath planeswalker might be able to bring individuals or groups to their kness, but Azor as an oldwalker back then, most certainly brought down entire nations/planes to theirs and he utilized it wrongly just as much as Jace does now.
Perhaps I am a bit too fixated on it, but the minute Azor ranted about it being the citizens' fault the systems failed, it spoke volumes of him much more than anything else in the story - from there I do not buy he ever created the laws to be broken in the first place, but simply expected people to be in the same line of thinking that he was in.
Jace might have done wrong, but Azor did the exact same mistakes on a larger scale. Jace still has the chance to redeem himself (especially with the running theory that Mage-Rings were Azor's doing, so this entire cruel decision is just a hook-back for Jace later on when he goes back to Vryn), but Ixalan itself is the nail in the coffin for Azor's redemption because he did exact same thing on the plane, was basically given the chance to recognize his mistakes (since he no longer could leave the plane) and well, pretty much didn't. Azor might have much more noble intentions than Jace, but when you've wrong fundamentals in practice that will have much larger detrimental consequences, I would say the more driven the intention, the worse it becomes instead.
We have might just met Azor directly, but we've been in a plane that has been baring the scars from wounds he inflicted since he actually stayed and I can assure you while a Sphinx oldwalker is easier to correct than an Elder Dragon (of any type) for sure, it's probably still a world harder than correcting Kor/Vampire oldwalkers and I assure you they probably have no time to even try (especially if a Primal Calamity may or may not be on the way).
I'm surprised by how many people are complaining about Azor's depiction. Personally, I don't think he was portrayed unrealistically at all. I work in the social sciences and let me tell you, I've known plenty of people just like Azor: people who are so wrapped up in their own ideas about how the world "should" work that they lose touch with reality. History has no shortage of people like that either, and more often than not, they (or their ideas) ended up causing great amounts of harm. Just look at Karl Marx and all the totalitarian dictators who tried to implement his ideas, usually to disastrous effect. Or if you want to go back further, look at Plato and the quasi-fascist society he describes in The Republic. Now imagine a near-omnipotent Plato who could force the rest of the world to enact his ideas, and who had no qualms about murdering literally millions of people in order to do so, and that's Azor.
You might argue that Azor should be above such human failings because of his age and perspective, but I don't think that's necessarily the case at all. He might be seeing things from a broader perspective, but that's just made him all the more out of touch with ordinary people and all the more ignorant of what they're actually like. And old age may bring wisdom for some people, but for others, the passage of time just makes them become more and more set in their ways. Azor definitely seems like an example of the latter, he probably sees his age as all the more justification for his arrogance and stubbornness. To a mind like his, each new experience is just more proof that he's right about everything, and every new piece of evidence is interpreted in a way that lines up with his existing worldview. It would almost be pitiful, except the story makes it all too clear that Azor's ignorance is very much a willing ignorance. He deliberately refuses to confront the truth because he'd rather have the self-righteous satisfaction of thinking that he already knows it. Whenever any evidence to the contrary shows up, he manages to find some convenient scapegoat that he can pin the blame on, rather than admitting that he might be wrong.
When he claims that only he is truly "worthy" of the Immortal Sun according to the system he devised, what does that really mean? He acts as if there's some greater set of values that he just happens to perfectly embody, but they're really just the values that he made up, of course he's going to fit them! It's circular logic. That's why I found it so satisfying when Jace turned his own rules against him. It wasn't just a practical victory, but a moral one. By saying "see, even you don't perfectly match your own standards" and backing up the claim with law magic that objectively proves him right, Jace is basically holding a mirror up to Azor and forcing him to confront his own hypocrisy.
As for whether Azor deserved the punishment he got, I'd say he deserved worse, but that's besides the point. The point is that it was necessary. As soon as the Immortal Sun was neutralized or destroyed, Azor would've been free to leave Ixalan again and would've resumed his crusade to "perfect" the multiverse. What was Jace supposed to do, let him go free to force his brand of order on countless more worlds? Would the bright creative spirit of Kaladesh be better served by some labyrinthine bureaucracy that makes the old Consulate look simple and free by comparison? Would the serene peace of Bant or the unbridled beauty of Naya be improved by an elaborate system of rules that none of the residents actually understand?
Would the serene peace of Bant or the unbridled beauty of Naya be improved by an elaborate system of rules that none of the residents actually understand?
Well, as a nitpick, Bant is no longer serene. Naya is probably still beautiful though, but with dragons, goblins and zombies now.
I agree with the point you're making in the post though.
Yeah, even with all that, Life on Ravnica was still presented as pretty good compared to nearly every other plane we've seen. Also bear in mind that most of the worst abuses we've seen by the guilds happened AFTER the guildpact stopped working.
You keep the reiterating the bolded point, and while it's true, I've said it before and I'll say it again: One of the guilds was there to attempt to break the Guildpact. The Guildpact was literally broken by two guilds just doing their job: The Dimir for trying to dismantle the system, and the Boros for enforcing the law. If the original Guildpact had instead allowed for the Dimir to be exposed by another guild, it might still be around.
I say this to say while the system somehow remained intact for 10 millenia, it was actually a miracle it did IMO.
It is still torture, regardless of who we applied it on. We can acknowledge the cruelty of our actions even if it's for the greater good of a society, the goal is to hopefully reduce the need of such action.
You keep saying this, this stupid strawman argument when ALL evidence we have seen says that Sphinxes have a preference to be alone, it is not a punishment to them. It is not, saying #NOTALLSPHINXES doesn't negate the evidence from the lore itself that Sphinxes are solitaire creatures, saying that Jace inflicted torture on Azor is ridiculous.
It is akin to saying that somebody would be torturing Ashling by setting her on fire.
Would the serene peace of Bant or the unbridled beauty of Naya be improved by an elaborate system of rules that none of the residents actually understand?
Well, as a nitpick, Bant is no longer serene. Naya is probably still beautiful though, but with dragons, goblins and zombies now.
I agree with the point you're making in the post though.
Yeah, even with all that, Life on Ravnica was still presented as pretty good compared to nearly every other plane we've seen. Also bear in mind that most of the worst abuses we've seen by the guilds happened AFTER the guildpact stopped working.
You keep the reiterating the bolded point, and while it's true, I've said it before and I'll say it again: One of the guilds was there to attempt to break the Guildpact. The Guildpact was literally broken by two guilds just doing their job: The Dimir for trying to dismantle the system, and the Boros for enforcing the law. If the original Guildpact had instead allowed for the Dimir to be exposed by another guild, it might still be around.
I say this to say while the system somehow remained intact for 10 millenia, it was actually a miracle it did IMO.
But then that becomes a different argument, that the Guildpact didn't do enough to save the Ravnicans from themselves. The factions predated the Guildpact. They were on the verge of destroying each other (and since they controlled everything, civilization) before the Guildpact. Saying the Dimir shouldn't have been able to succeed at undoing it is a valid criticism, but its a criticism that suggests the pact should have been stronger, not that its responsible for the atrocities committed by the guilds after its fall. The metaphor here is if you uninstall your antivirus, then get a virus, you can't blame your antivirus for letting the virus through. You could argue that the anti virus could have been cheaper per month, or less intrusive, or some other thing that would have made you less likely to uninstall it and have those be valid criticisms, but that doesn't make it the antiviruses fault for letting the virus through when it was no longer installed.
Unfortunately, the valid criticisms of the Guildpact just make it obvious that this is all a poorly handled retcon. The Guildpact made perfect sense when it was a collaborative venture between the ten guilds. Of course the Dimir would ensure they could work against it and succeed, and the other guilds would have to let that part be in it or else the Dimir wouldn't sign. Everything else follows from that, needing all ten guilds to build it and thus needing to appease all ten Paruns. Making Azor an oldwalker who travels plane to plane imposing laws and systems is what makes it not work. If this was the only time he did it, it would make more sense, because you could easily argue that its a unique, fantastic thing and something he can't do alone, so he had to appease the guilds, but once you have it be something he does all the time it gets trickier. He either has to make convoluted loophole filled systems everywhere he goes, or this has to be different from his other systems in some way. If its different, then its either because the forces of the guilds were too powerful to corral without their consent or input, or because he wants to involve the denizens of the planes he changes in the process, both of which are just speculation. Basically, until Creative gives us an explanation as to why Azor made the guildpact the way he did, its stupid, and its stupid because its clearly a stupidly done retcon. Just like RtR was stupid. Just like Scars block was stupid. Just like BfZ was stupid. Just like Shadows over Innistrad was honestly pretty stupid, but at least made up for it at times with atmospherics. They suck at retcons, and it shows.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Would the serene peace of Bant or the unbridled beauty of Naya be improved by an elaborate system of rules that none of the residents actually understand?
Well, as a nitpick, Bant is no longer serene. Naya is probably still beautiful though, but with dragons, goblins and zombies now.
I agree with the point you're making in the post though.
Yeah, even with all that, Life on Ravnica was still presented as pretty good compared to nearly every other plane we've seen. Also bear in mind that most of the worst abuses we've seen by the guilds happened AFTER the guildpact stopped working.
You keep the reiterating the bolded point, and while it's true, I've said it before and I'll say it again: One of the guilds was there to attempt to break the Guildpact. The Guildpact was literally broken by two guilds just doing their job: The Dimir for trying to dismantle the system, and the Boros for enforcing the law. If the original Guildpact had instead allowed for the Dimir to be exposed by another guild, it might still be around.
I say this to say while the system somehow remained intact for 10 millenia, it was actually a miracle it did IMO.
But then that becomes a different argument, that the Guildpact didn't do enough to save the Ravnicans from themselves. The factions predated the Guildpact. They were on the verge of destroying each other (and since they controlled everything, civilization) before the Guildpact. Saying the Dimir shouldn't have been able to succeed at undoing it is a valid criticism, but its a criticism that suggests the pact should have been stronger, not that its responsible for the atrocities committed by the guilds after its fall. The metaphor here is if you uninstall your antivirus, then get a virus, you can't blame your antivirus for letting the virus through. You could argue that the anti virus could have been cheaper per month, or less intrusive, or some other thing that would have made you less likely to uninstall it and have those be valid criticisms, but that doesn't make it the antiviruses fault for letting the virus through when it was no longer installed.
Unfortunately, the valid criticisms of the Guildpact just make it obvious that this is all a poorly handled retcon. The Guildpact made perfect sense when it was a collaborative venture between the ten guilds. Of course the Dimir would ensure they could work against it and succeed, and the other guilds would have to let that part be in it or else the Dimir wouldn't sign. Everything else follows from that, needing all ten guilds to build it and thus needing to appease all ten Paruns. Making Azor an oldwalker who travels plane to plane imposing laws and systems is what makes it not work. If this was the only time he did it, it would make more sense, because you could easily argue that its a unique, fantastic thing and something he can't do alone, so he had to appease the guilds, but once you have it be something he does all the time it gets trickier. He either has to make convoluted loophole filled systems everywhere he goes, or this has to be different from his other systems in some way. If its different, then its either because the forces of the guilds were too powerful to corral without their consent or input, or because he wants to involve the denizens of the planes he changes in the process, both of which are just speculation. Basically, until Creative gives us an explanation as to why Azor made the guildpact the way he did, its stupid, and its stupid because its clearly a stupidly done retcon. Just like RtR was stupid. Just like Scars block was stupid. Just like BfZ was stupid. Just like Shadows over Innistrad was honestly pretty stupid, but at least made up for it at times with atmospherics. They suck at retcons, and it shows.
Origins was also generally a retcon, and the retcons varied in quality and impact. Liliana's was pretty minimal, and Nissa's changed her character.
Would the serene peace of Bant or the unbridled beauty of Naya be improved by an elaborate system of rules that none of the residents actually understand?
Well, as a nitpick, Bant is no longer serene. Naya is probably still beautiful though, but with dragons, goblins and zombies now.
I agree with the point you're making in the post though.
Yeah, even with all that, Life on Ravnica was still presented as pretty good compared to nearly every other plane we've seen. Also bear in mind that most of the worst abuses we've seen by the guilds happened AFTER the guildpact stopped working.
You keep the reiterating the bolded point, and while it's true, I've said it before and I'll say it again: One of the guilds was there to attempt to break the Guildpact. The Guildpact was literally broken by two guilds just doing their job: The Dimir for trying to dismantle the system, and the Boros for enforcing the law. If the original Guildpact had instead allowed for the Dimir to be exposed by another guild, it might still be around.
I say this to say while the system somehow remained intact for 10 millenia, it was actually a miracle it did IMO.
But then that becomes a different argument, that the Guildpact didn't do enough to save the Ravnicans from themselves. The factions predated the Guildpact. They were on the verge of destroying each other (and since they controlled everything, civilization) before the Guildpact. Saying the Dimir shouldn't have been able to succeed at undoing it is a valid criticism, but its a criticism that suggests the pact should have been stronger, not that its responsible for the atrocities committed by the guilds after its fall. The metaphor here is if you uninstall your antivirus, then get a virus, you can't blame your antivirus for letting the virus through. You could argue that the anti virus could have been cheaper per month, or less intrusive, or some other thing that would have made you less likely to uninstall it and have those be valid criticisms, but that doesn't make it the antiviruses fault for letting the virus through when it was no longer installed.
Unfortunately, the valid criticisms of the Guildpact just make it obvious that this is all a poorly handled retcon. The Guildpact made perfect sense when it was a collaborative venture between the ten guilds. Of course the Dimir would ensure they could work against it and succeed, and the other guilds would have to let that part be in it or else the Dimir wouldn't sign. Everything else follows from that, needing all ten guilds to build it and thus needing to appease all ten Paruns. Making Azor an oldwalker who travels plane to plane imposing laws and systems is what makes it not work. If this was the only time he did it, it would make more sense, because you could easily argue that its a unique, fantastic thing and something he can't do alone, so he had to appease the guilds, but once you have it be something he does all the time it gets trickier. He either has to make convoluted loophole filled systems everywhere he goes, or this has to be different from his other systems in some way. If its different, then its either because the forces of the guilds were too powerful to corral without their consent or input, or because he wants to involve the denizens of the planes he changes in the process, both of which are just speculation. Basically, until Creative gives us an explanation as to why Azor made the guildpact the way he did, its stupid, and its stupid because its clearly a stupidly done retcon. Just like RtR was stupid. Just like Scars block was stupid. Just like BfZ was stupid. Just like Shadows over Innistrad was honestly pretty stupid, but at least made up for it at times with atmospherics. They suck at retcons, and it shows.
Origins was also generally a retcon, and the retcons varied in quality and impact. Liliana's was pretty minimal, and Nissa's changed her character.
Oh yeah, I lumped Nissa's terrible retcon in with BfZ as she's Zendikari, but I guess it makes more sense to take the whole thing together. Lili was a relatively minor retcon, Chandra's was handled alright because it was easily explained away by her simply not telling the truth to Gideon in PF, which she later admits. That's one instance where they actually did take an easy step to make a retcon work.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't know why you guys are still arguing about this, Jace sentenced Azor to stay put in Useless Island, he can't leave, he cant interact with sentient beings, you guys are arguing if what he did is right or wrong, so instead let me ask you this: Who is Jace to sentence anyone OUTSIDE of Ravnica? Jace is The Living Guildpact but The Living Guildpact is part of the governament system of Ravnica, Ravnica and Ixalan are not on the same plane, Jace having the right to sentence someone on ixalan makes as much sense as the African governament applying a sentence on a person who lives in a city on the moon.
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BWG
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
I don't know why you guys are still arguing about this, Jace sentenced Azor to stay put in Useless Island, he can't leave, he cant interact with sentient beings, you guys are arguing if what he did is right or wrong, so instead let me ask you this: Who is Jace to sentence anyone OUTSIDE of Ravnica? Jace is The Living Guildpact but The Living Guildpact is part of the governament system of Ravnica, Ravnica and Ixalan are not on the same plane, Jace having the right to sentence someone on ixalan makes as much sense as the African governament applying a sentence on a person who lives in a city on the moon.
Azor is the parun of the Azorius Guild. He co-signed the Guildpact and made himself subject to its laws and the laws of its "fail-safe" version.
So, Jace can't sentence just anyone outside of Ravnica, as he would've done so already. He can, however, render silent Azor.
I think we've reached the point we need to agree to disagree. I think you might be a bit too fixated on the context of Jace's immediate punishment on Azor. Yes, Jace's action is cruel and it may be torture (I'll have to withhold since don't know enough about Azor on whether he could be bored to death and cannot actually assume either way, the only point is there are enough sphinx examples to prove sentience alone isn't definitive enough to prove boredom will kill Azor), but Jace's action is immediate as of now (as in we basically just read about it). It's unfair to judge him for not acknowledging it immediately after (especially after the whole mental distress part).
Meanwhile Azor outright doesn't acknowledge his own cruelty, he built systems that basically requires everyone to think like him to function effectively and then rants that it didn't work out because others don't think like him. He made a concession to nine other systems (the Guilds) when he set up the first Guildpact but the backup does display those "me or the highway" tendencies. Sure, he left before he could learn his mistakes, but when confronted with them he just went on a rant about how it's not his mistake instead of contemplation and the best example is right on Ixalan - he gifted the Sun (and his Laws) to those he deemed worthy first and when it didn't work out, he didn't stay and figure out how to fix it and instead decided to just transfer it to another faction instead. Guess what? None of them worked out, because Azor's techniques were fundamentally flawed from the start - he built systems to govern people without the consideration of others at all, only himself.
What Azor did was not the straightforward-form of cruelty like Jace, but a more abstract form of it that scars the social hierarchy of societies/planes, but is no less a cruelty. In fact it's probably more, because it's capable of breeding individual straightforward cases like Vraska's (that wasn't even a direct consequence, but a aftermath one). Jace, as a powerful telepath planeswalker might be able to bring individuals or groups to their kness, but Azor as an oldwalker back then, most certainly brought down entire nations/planes to theirs and he utilized it wrongly just as much as Jace does now.
Perhaps I am a bit too fixated on it, but the minute Azor ranted about it being the citizens' fault the systems failed, it spoke volumes of him much more than anything else in the story - from there I do not buy he ever created the laws to be broken in the first place, but simply expected people to be in the same line of thinking that he was in.
Jace might have done wrong, but Azor did the exact same mistakes on a larger scale. Jace still has the chance to redeem himself (especially with the running theory that Mage-Rings were Azor's doing, so this entire cruel decision is just a hook-back for Jace later on when he goes back to Vryn), but Ixalan itself is the nail in the coffin for Azor's redemption because he did exact same thing on the plane, was basically given the chance to recognize his mistakes (since he no longer could leave the plane) and well, pretty much didn't. Azor might have much more noble intentions than Jace, but when you've wrong fundamentals in practice that will have much larger detrimental consequences, I would say the more driven the intention, the worse it becomes instead.
We have might just met Azor directly, but we've been in a plane that has been baring the scars from wounds he inflicted since he actually stayed and I can assure you while a Sphinx oldwalker is easier to correct than an Elder Dragon (of any type) for sure, it's probably still a world harder than correcting Kor/Vampire oldwalkers and I assure you they probably have no time to even try (especially if a Primal Calamity may or may not be on the way).
I wonder if the story were given more length, there might be better solution to all sides of characters in this matter. You're right about Jace made an immediate decision at that spot, because there's almost no time left for storytellers left to deepen or broaden the scope further. For story's sake, I can see his verdict on Azor adds the most dramatic effect on the plot and their characters, though an old walker, no matter how A-Holish, deserve more screen time, as they are mirrors of the grand past.
Not once I defended Azor's arrogance and blaming attitude, though I understand why he believes citizens were at fault for this (please hear me out). Take video game for example, if a gamer could follow strategy guide faithfully, s/he could finish the game with a perfect score, anything else would be the player's own lacking. In Azor's case, he is very much the strategy writer while the people he ruled over were the gamers, the plane a game. The problem with this idealistic line of thinking is that, if Azor knew from experience that gamers would fail due to their imperfection, he should've learned by now that his strategies are not everlasting even if it initially served its purpose, because the "gamers" and the "game" itself ebb and flow, but he is apparently a very bad learner (which makes me wonder where he gained his law-making degree).
And because of this, I too feel that what Jace did was no different from Azor on a smaller scale, fundamental directions of both characters remains flawed, open to hypocrisy. I confess my frustration towards Jace was also because Azor as a character was banished hasty before we could learn more about his background, and also because Bolas is still looming over the multiverse, this is not the time to take a potential ally out of the picture, or in that manner. Then again, Jace has never been a true moral hero and blue ever a neutral color, it fits him.
I think we've reached the point we need to agree to disagree. I think you might be a bit too fixated on the context of Jace's immediate punishment on Azor. Yes, Jace's action is cruel and it may be torture (I'll have to withhold since don't know enough about Azor on whether he could be bored to death and cannot actually assume either way, the only point is there are enough sphinx examples to prove sentience alone isn't definitive enough to prove boredom will kill Azor), but Jace's action is immediate as of now (as in we basically just read about it). It's unfair to judge him for not acknowledging it immediately after (especially after the whole mental distress part).
Meanwhile Azor outright doesn't acknowledge his own cruelty, he built systems that basically requires everyone to think like him to function effectively and then rants that it didn't work out because others don't think like him. He made a concession to nine other systems (the Guilds) when he set up the first Guildpact but the backup does display those "me or the highway" tendencies. Sure, he left before he could learn his mistakes, but when confronted with them he just went on a rant about how it's not his mistake instead of contemplation and the best example is right on Ixalan - he gifted the Sun (and his Laws) to those he deemed worthy first and when it didn't work out, he didn't stay and figure out how to fix it and instead decided to just transfer it to another faction instead. Guess what? None of them worked out, because Azor's techniques were fundamentally flawed from the start - he built systems to govern people without the consideration of others at all, only himself.
What Azor did was not the straightforward-form of cruelty like Jace, but a more abstract form of it that scars the social hierarchy of societies/planes, but is no less a cruelty. In fact it's probably more, because it's capable of breeding individual straightforward cases like Vraska's (that wasn't even a direct consequence, but a aftermath one). Jace, as a powerful telepath planeswalker might be able to bring individuals or groups to their kness, but Azor as an oldwalker back then, most certainly brought down entire nations/planes to theirs and he utilized it wrongly just as much as Jace does now.
Perhaps I am a bit too fixated on it, but the minute Azor ranted about it being the citizens' fault the systems failed, it spoke volumes of him much more than anything else in the story - from there I do not buy he ever created the laws to be broken in the first place, but simply expected people to be in the same line of thinking that he was in.
Jace might have done wrong, but Azor did the exact same mistakes on a larger scale. Jace still has the chance to redeem himself (especially with the running theory that Mage-Rings were Azor's doing, so this entire cruel decision is just a hook-back for Jace later on when he goes back to Vryn), but Ixalan itself is the nail in the coffin for Azor's redemption because he did exact same thing on the plane, was basically given the chance to recognize his mistakes (since he no longer could leave the plane) and well, pretty much didn't. Azor might have much more noble intentions than Jace, but when you've wrong fundamentals in practice that will have much larger detrimental consequences, I would say the more driven the intention, the worse it becomes instead.
We have might just met Azor directly, but we've been in a plane that has been baring the scars from wounds he inflicted since he actually stayed and I can assure you while a Sphinx oldwalker is easier to correct than an Elder Dragon (of any type) for sure, it's probably still a world harder than correcting Kor/Vampire oldwalkers and I assure you they probably have no time to even try (especially if a Primal Calamity may or may not be on the way).
I wonder if the story were given more length, there might be better solution to all sides of characters in this matter. You're right about Jace made an immediate decision at that spot, because there's almost no time left for storytellers left to deepen or broaden the scope further. For story's sake, I can see his verdict on Azor adds the most dramatic effect on the plot and their characters, though an old walker, no matter how A-Holish, deserve more screen time, as they are mirrors of the grand past.
Not once I defended Azor's arrogance and blaming attitude, though I understand why he believes citizens were at fault for this (please hear me out). Take video game for example, if a gamer could follow strategy guide faithfully, s/he could finish the game with a perfect score, anything else would be the player's own lacking. In Azor's case, he is very much the strategy writer while the people he ruled over were the gamers, the plane a game. The problem with this idealistic line of thinking is that, if Azor knew from experience that gamers would fail due to their imperfection, he should've learned by now that his strategies are not everlasting even if it initially served its purpose, because the "gamers" and the "game" itself ebb and flow, but he is apparently a very bad learner (which makes me wonder where he gained his law-making degree).
And because of this, I too feel that what Jace did was no different from Azor on a smaller scale, fundamental directions of both characters remains flawed, open to hypocrisy. I confess my frustration towards Jace was also because Azor as a character was banished hasty before we could learn more about his background, and also because Bolas is still looming over the multiverse, this is not the time to take a potential ally out of the picture, or in that manner. Then again, Jace has never been a true moral hero and blue ever a neutral color, it fits him.
To be fair to Jace, exiling Azor to Useless Island is a very cautious move. In the moment, Azor was an obstacle and a dangerous X factor. Useless Island provided a way to take him out of play entirely and immediately, but the banishment can also be undone as easily as sailing to Useless Island and lifting the banishment (or possibly just lifting it, its not clear that he has to be speaking with Azor to do so). As it stands, Useless Island is an unambiguous upgrade from what Azor has been living in for hundreds of years (at least if I understood the story correctly that he locked himself in that room with the Immortal Sun). Jace never says how long he's being banished there, but it seems like he intends to leave him there forever, but leaving open the possibility of releasing him if he needs to or if with more information he decides to let him go.
Side note, would this banishment outlive the Living Guildpact? If not, then he's just giving Azor a tropical timeout.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The description in the Art Book actually felt more interesting then what we got. It actually said that when each afction got control ***** got real like Kumena summoning Storms and sutch. Feels very clumsy and rather silly how theya re fighting it off in the story. Its caleld a city but everyone is managing to enter the main sanctum rather easy and fast.
To be fair to Jace, exiling Azor to Useless Island is a very cautious move. In the moment, Azor was an obstacle and a dangerous X factor. Useless Island provided a way to take him out of play entirely and immediately, but the banishment can also be undone as easily as sailing to Useless Island and lifting the banishment (or possibly just lifting it, its not clear that he has to be speaking with Azor to do so). As it stands, Useless Island is an unambiguous upgrade from what Azor has been living in for hundreds of years (at least if I understood the story correctly that he locked himself in that room with the Immortal Sun). Jace never says how long he's being banished there, but it seems like he intends to leave him there forever, but leaving open the possibility of releasing him if he needs to or if with more information he decides to let him go.
Side note, would this banishment outlive the Living Guildpact? If not, then he's just giving Azor a tropical timeout.
It's a magic based decree built by Azor himself, and a psychic hindrance in an (likely) immortal mind, so Azor is gonna stay there long after Jace passed away. Unless story speaks otherwise, Jace is probably not going to come back here ever again to change his verdict. Immediate and effective and a plot-related necessity, but it's hard not to feel bad for the sphinx.
Not once I defended Azor's arrogance and blaming attitude, though I understand why he believes citizens were at fault for this (please hear me out). Take video game for example, if a gamer could follow strategy guide faithfully, s/he could finish the game with a perfect score, anything else would be the player's own lacking. In Azor's case, he is very much the strategy writer while the people he ruled over were the gamers, the plane a game. The problem with this idealistic line of thinking is that, if Azor knew from experience that gamers would fail due to their imperfection, he should've learned by now that his strategies are not everlasting even if it initially served its purpose, because the "gamers" and the "game" itself ebb and flow, but he is apparently a very bad learner (which makes me wonder where he gained his law-making degree).
I think we've come to the consensus on the Jace topic, so I'm not going to comment on the topic further.
The problem with Azor believing that the citizens were at fault is simply because he doesn't recognize that life itself isn't a game that is meant to be truly 100% completed / perfected in any way, as a result each individual must pick partial criteria of life/games they personally determine to be of value to themselves and consider that their goal in life / the game. Take MMORPGs as one of the better exmaples, some people consider reaching level cap for their character to be their "100% goals", others the main storyline, yet others are just in for every collectible item in the game.
Objectively, none of them are really classified completionists (which requires all of the acheivements and more, especially if there are multiple classes / builds, so the leveling cap one is effectively multiplied accordingly as well). Very few are insane enough to accomplish everything and even fewer will really adopt the elitist mindset that being a true compeletionist is the only way to play the game, in fact chances are the vocal elitists come from the different categories of "completion" deeming their preference is better than others (or you know what, a closer example would be us within MTG debating with format is better and we sure make way more noise than someone who is a pro player in all levels of formats saying that his method of playing, while objectively correctly "correct" in the sense of completion is the right way to play the entire game of MTG technically).
Why does this pertain so much to Azor? Because he, in a way, is simultaneously both types of elitists (not that being any is really positive anyway). As an oldwalker (and a Sphinx to boot), he does have the expanded point of view of the world, so the total accomplishments of mere non-planeswalkers must seem like a trivial simple game that can be 100% completed, and this reflects greatly that he has never put his feet into the shoes of them. Simultaneously though, as an oldwalker among many others, he has never really considered besides what himself was doing (going around "setting order") to be a single path of the "oldwalker's life accomplishments" possible.
To be fair to Azor though, we've never really seen him interact with other oldwalkers (bar Ugin based on pretty obvious speculation here) since we just met him (and know nothing about his history). That being said, considered the insane power oldwalkers held then and their general insanity (and willingness to unleash their power on simple disagreements), I'm very inclined to say even if Azor met them, he probably found it ridiculously difficult to "convert" them and eventually just gave up on settled for general isolation (as per a lot of oldwalkers actually as Nahiri showed before) from them and went to "dominate" non-planeswalkers instead.
There's one defining factor between Azor and other oldwalkers when it comes to the isolation though and it's partial proof that Azor as a Sphinx indeed has a stronger preference for isolation and will reinforce it more compared to others - the first Guildpact was effectively also a planeswalker barrier preventing planeswalkers from entering (and possibly discovering) Ravnica in the first place. Even Sorin, who considered himself the ruler of Innistrad, only kept an eye on his plane and doesn't bother others if they aren't interrupting what he deems as the balance on his plane (Liliana comfortably lived there lots of times because she chose to stay behind the line Sorin warned her of at the start). Azor just decided other oldwalkers as a whole weren't worth the effort of warning because they were stubbornly different and chose to outright isolate Ravnica instead, when he is just as stubborn.
I didn't want to talk about Jace, but the similarity between them appeared again - Azor thinks "out of sight, out of mind" works, so he chooses to isolate himself from other oldwalkers more actively than most basically in denial of their near-infinite potential, chose to see his own "duty" as the only correct way and when said "duty" involves simplifying planes of non-planeswalkers into "games with easy 100% completion", without recognizing each individual in those games are effectively leading their own lives not very different from the one he just denied himself of, just from a much smaller, more mortal perspective, I'll say he got the basic fundamentals for life wrong...
To be fair to Jace, exiling Azor to Useless Island is a very cautious move. In the moment, Azor was an obstacle and a dangerous X factor. Useless Island provided a way to take him out of play entirely and immediately, but the banishment can also be undone as easily as sailing to Useless Island and lifting the banishment (or possibly just lifting it, its not clear that he has to be speaking with Azor to do so). As it stands, Useless Island is an unambiguous upgrade from what Azor has been living in for hundreds of years (at least if I understood the story correctly that he locked himself in that room with the Immortal Sun). Jace never says how long he's being banished there, but it seems like he intends to leave him there forever, but leaving open the possibility of releasing him if he needs to or if with more information he decides to let him go.
Side note, would this banishment outlive the Living Guildpact? If not, then he's just giving Azor a tropical timeout.
It's a magic based decree built by Azor himself, and a psychic hindrance in an (likely) immortal mind, so Azor is gonna stay there long after Jace passed away. Unless story speaks otherwise, Jace is probably not going to come back here ever again to change his verdict. Immediate and effective and a plot-related necessity, but it's hard not to feel bad for the sphinx.
I'd say that really depends on if the magic at work is reliant on the Guildpact for more than just being cast. There is so much about the living Guildpact we don't know surrounding what happens when Jace dies. Jace didn't use his mind magic, he used the magic of the Guildpact. Does its nature change when he dies? Is it passed on, or does the maze get run again? We know that when the Guildpact was broken all the rules and restrictions it created were rendered moot, so what about when Jace dies?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
One thing that has always really, really bothered me about Ravnica is the impossible and simplistic notion that ten guilds could last largely unchanged, and in a constant balance of power, ten thousand years. (Tarkir has a similar problem)
Ten competing guilds, established with specific names, identities, cultures, and goals, remain more or less intact for ten thousand years. Not one of them splintered, not one of them fell apart, not one of them was replaced or subsumed or conquered, not one of them struck off to forge a new identity for itself or underwent significant revolution. Either Azor is an unparalleled genius, or the plane was designed with little appreciation for how history or societies really work. This is fantasy, I know. But it's a trope that still bugs the hell out of me. For comparison:
- The Mongol Empire lasted three generations, then splintered apart and collapsed.
- The Roman Empire lasted intact from 27 BC to 395 AD, just over 400 years. The Western Empire fell a century later.
- The British Empire lasted just over 400 years.
- Writing has only existed for about 5,000 years.
- The wheel was invented between 7,000 and 8,000 years ago.
- The agricultural revolution occurred about 12,000 years ago.
One thing that has always really, really bothered me about Ravnica is the impossible and simplistic notion that ten guilds could last largely unchanged, and in a constant balance of power, ten thousand years. (Tarkir has a similar problem)
Ten competing guilds, established with specific names, identities, cultures, and goals, remain more or less intact for ten thousand years. Not one of them splintered, not one of them fell apart, not one of them was replaced or subsumed or conquered, not one of them struck off to forge a new identity for itself or underwent significant revolution. Either Azor is an unparalleled genius, or the plane was designed with little appreciation for how history or societies really work. This is fantasy, I know. But it's a trope that still bugs the hell out of me. For comparison:
- The Mongol Empire lasted three generations, then splintered apart and collapsed.
- The Roman Empire lasted intact from 27 BC to 395 AD, just over 400 years. The Western Empire fell a century later.
- The British Empire lasted just over 400 years.
- Writing has only existed for about 5,000 years.
- The wheel was invented between 7,000 and 8,000 years ago.
- The agricultural revolution occurred about 12,000 years ago.
Honestly this is a problem for a lot of fictional universes, whether Fantastical or High Tech. *cough*Star Wars*cough*
Writers use big numbers because it sounds badass, but never stop to really consider the implications of said numbers.
Its easier for a guilds culture to remain unchanged for long periods of time when its leadership remains unchanged for those years. Hence why groups like the Izzet, the Rakdos, and the Selesnya have gone more or less unchanged in the way they act while groups like the Golgari and the Simic change the way they behave over time in time with their change in leadership.
One thing that has always really, really bothered me about Ravnica is the impossible and simplistic notion that ten guilds could last largely unchanged, and in a constant balance of power, ten thousand years. (Tarkir has a similar problem)
Ten competing guilds, established with specific names, identities, cultures, and goals, remain more or less intact for ten thousand years. Not one of them splintered, not one of them fell apart, not one of them was replaced or subsumed or conquered, not one of them struck off to forge a new identity for itself or underwent significant revolution. Either Azor is an unparalleled genius, or the plane was designed with little appreciation for how history or societies really work. This is fantasy, I know. But it's a trope that still bugs the hell out of me. For comparison:
- The Mongol Empire lasted three generations, then splintered apart and collapsed.
- The Roman Empire lasted intact from 27 BC to 395 AD, just over 400 years. The Western Empire fell a century later.
- The British Empire lasted just over 400 years.
- Writing has only existed for about 5,000 years.
- The wheel was invented between 7,000 and 8,000 years ago.
- The agricultural revolution occurred about 12,000 years ago.
Counterpoint: its not a problem in this particular instance because it was explicitly maintained through magic designed specifically to maintain the system mostly as is.
Many changes still occurred. Ravnica was a regular fantasy setting pre Guildpact, and only became a plane spanning city scape as a side effect of the Guildpact both ensuring overall peace and giving each guild except for the Dimir something constructive to do. Some guilds radically changed their structure. the Gruul became scattered clans fighting against the city only after the city eliminated the natural areas, and the simic became mad scientists for the same reason, as the only way for them to fulfill their role of helping natural life grow and thrive was to modify it to fit the city. The Golgari changed from a Necromancers private army, to a guild of outcasts led by monsters, to a guild of outcasts led by elves. Those are only the changes that are explicitly mentioned or shown.
Overall, however, the basic structure of ten guilds was maintained because the Guildpact would intervene to prevent any guild from becoming weak enough to collapse or strong enough to dominate the system. Thats it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
One thing that has always really, really bothered me about Ravnica is the impossible and simplistic notion that ten guilds could last largely unchanged, and in a constant balance of power, ten thousand years. (Tarkir has a similar problem)
Ten competing guilds, established with specific names, identities, cultures, and goals, remain more or less intact for ten thousand years. Not one of them splintered, not one of them fell apart, not one of them was replaced or subsumed or conquered, not one of them struck off to forge a new identity for itself or underwent significant revolution. Either Azor is an unparalleled genius, or the plane was designed with little appreciation for how history or societies really work. This is fantasy, I know. But it's a trope that still bugs the hell out of me. For comparison:
- The Mongol Empire lasted three generations, then splintered apart and collapsed.
- The Roman Empire lasted intact from 27 BC to 395 AD, just over 400 years. The Western Empire fell a century later.
- The British Empire lasted just over 400 years.
- Writing has only existed for about 5,000 years.
- The wheel was invented between 7,000 and 8,000 years ago.
- The agricultural revolution occurred about 12,000 years ago.
Counterpoint: its not a problem in this particular instance because it was explicitly maintained through magic designed specifically to maintain the system mostly as is.
Many changes still occurred. Ravnica was a regular fantasy setting pre Guildpact, and only became a plane spanning city scape as a side effect of the Guildpact both ensuring overall peace and giving each guild except for the Dimir something constructive to do. Some guilds radically changed their structure. the Gruul became scattered clans fighting against the city only after the city eliminated the natural areas, and the simic became mad scientists for the same reason, as the only way for them to fulfill their role of helping natural life grow and thrive was to modify it to fit the city. The Golgari changed from a Necromancers private army, to a guild of outcasts led by monsters, to a guild of outcasts led by elves. Those are only the changes that are explicitly mentioned or shown.
Overall, however, the basic structure of ten guilds was maintained because the Guildpact would intervene to prevent any guild from becoming weak enough to collapse or strong enough to dominate the system. Thats it.
Maybe the Guildpact should also have included a clause or two about not covering the entire surface of the plane in city so that the Gruul and Simic (and Selesnya, I guess?) guilds didn't become as warped as they did.
No changes in place;
Dinosaurs/ Sun Empire in 1st place and have 51 points (up 19 points)
Merfolk/ River Herald in 2nd place and have 46 points (up 18 points)
Vampires/ Legion of Dusk in 3rd place and have 42 points (up 22 points)
Pirates/ Brazen Coalition in 4th place and have 29 points (up 11 points)
On the 5th the geocatch thing is added in;
1st will get 12 Points
2nd will get 10 Points
3rd will get 8 Points
4th will get 6 Points
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I'd say that really depends on if the magic at work is reliant on the Guildpact for more than just being cast. There is so much about the living Guildpact we don't know surrounding what happens when Jace dies. Jace didn't use his mind magic, he used the magic of the Guildpact. Does its nature change when he dies? Is it passed on, or does the maze get run again? We know that when the Guildpact was broken all the rules and restrictions it created were rendered moot, so what about when Jace dies?
Jace used Guildpact to subdue Azor, and while he asked for permission to enter Azor's mind, Azor really didn't have a choice, since Jace technically could punish him with Guildpact if he does not permit it. Once he's in Azor's mind, I'm sure Jace had pulled a few strings to ensure the he and/or the Guildpact remain effective beyond its current state, it's the "logical" thing to do as a blue mage.
One thing that has always really, really bothered me about Ravnica is the impossible and simplistic notion that ten guilds could last largely unchanged, and in a constant balance of power, ten thousand years. (Tarkir has a similar problem)
Ten competing guilds, established with specific names, identities, cultures, and goals, remain more or less intact for ten thousand years. Not one of them splintered, not one of them fell apart, not one of them was replaced or subsumed or conquered, not one of them struck off to forge a new identity for itself or underwent significant revolution. Either Azor is an unparalleled genius, or the plane was designed with little appreciation for how history or societies really work. This is fantasy, I know. But it's a trope that still bugs the hell out of me.
I mentioned in one of my post that Azor, perhaps not unlike Alhammarret, wanted a little chaos and competition as long as the grand scheme holds; on Vryn was the Mage Rings, on Ravnica perhaps is Azorius remaining in power, because you can't possibly be the judge if everyone does things right, and through judging and punishing the Azorius solidified its status.
And remember the universe of Magic has a powerful plot armor call MAGIC, which in sense almost like God's willing, to keep things the way they are without breaking down.
Azor deemed "law-bringing to all worlds" as his purpose, and that was my point; a sphinx could act out of preference even when s/he considers something more important than being aloof and isolated. I am solely interpreting Azor's motives base on what he had done/traveled, its effectiveness is of course subject to discussion.
Given how Guildpact loopholes was capable of being exploited, I don't assume Jace's punishment would be everlasting, at least not until he changed his mind or someone broke it. However, until the said situations happened, Azor's punishment is indeed eternal, a Schrödinger's Cat if you will, because Jace has not reason to change his mind, and the fact that he exiled Azor to a remote island away from all civilization on a non-consequential plane (after the Sun is taken) implies that he has no intention to remember about Azor or improve Azor's chance of meeting people. I don't believe Jace did this without his old trauma at work, because "forget" about something was his preferred way of ridding the problems of his life, here is just a more physical way of making it happen without inducing amnesia on himself; out of sight out of mind.
It is still torture, regardless of who we applied it on. We can acknowledge the cruelty of our actions even if it's for the greater good of a society, the goal is to hopefully reduce the need of such action.
HOWEVER, we are also a society without telepath who could correct a person's mind, therefore locking people up is the best thing we could do (and improve overall education and socioeconomic average, but that's an unrelated topic all together). The reason I have issue with Jace was because he is capable of so much more than us Earthling, yet he chose the least productive way to rid of a problem. He didn't exile Azor out of malice, but the result of his action remain a cruel one. Again, I believe his action has a lot to do with both his and Vraska's distain towards Sphinx and Azorius, respectively, WotC willing, he might eventually realize the implication of his judgment.
If we look at Vryn, where Alhammarret maintains a conflict to protect the Mage Rings, we can assume some sphinxes manage their business by first identifying the greatest objective, and every other facets will be supportive and empowerment, minor conflicts allowed if they serve the greater good. My guess is that Azor also wanted competitions amongst the guild just so the society would not descent into complete ruins like 10,000 years ago. Even without a senate system, the guilds were considered the epitome of ruling government, and they all agree each has functions beneficial to the society; Azorius is the face rule maker, Boros being the police, Golgari manage the waste, Gruul being the chaotic reminder of past, etc. It's not perfect, but it served its purpose at stopping the ancient war and allow the populace to find a place they belong, talents utilized, and ambition fulfilled.
It is surprising that Azor would making Living Guildpact the failsafe, consider his distrust for people, perhaps he was hoping a sphinx to win the maze?
I want to borrow Gideon's words here, he said PW are those who could always just leave, but they could also choose to stay. Azor is the former, he could just walk away from his problem, and because he never stayed he never learned that he made a mistake. Though I must say chance of a PW telepath who happened to solve the maze appear on Ixalan is very, very low, in most cases Azor would have no issues with people finding the loophole; he's no longer where the people are, and Azor may be the only individual who could (with the Sun's help) summon those he want via hieromancy across the multiverse.
And his colors. WU is the classic color combination where you expect people to make mistakes, then correct them. We do have to wonder if Azor created the laws intended for them to be broken, just so he could punish the sinners, like Catholic God who put forbidden fruits inside Eden with Adam and Eve in it. The encounter in the story is too short for us to know Azor more, but we can guess.
Liliana is not the best example here, but we did see her growth during to her time with the Gatewatch and Jace, which is why I'm reluctant to assume Azor, a character we just met with barely any chance to learn about him further, base on his old walker status. With Jaya coming in Dominaria, the passionate red PW might give us more perspective on how some old walkers are capable of remaining sassy. Hell, red mana could make a Phyrexian care.
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I think we've reached the point we need to agree to disagree. I think you might be a bit too fixated on the context of Jace's immediate punishment on Azor. Yes, Jace's action is cruel and it may be torture (I'll have to withhold since don't know enough about Azor on whether he could be bored to death and cannot actually assume either way, the only point is there are enough sphinx examples to prove sentience alone isn't definitive enough to prove boredom will kill Azor), but Jace's action is immediate as of now (as in we basically just read about it). It's unfair to judge him for not acknowledging it immediately after (especially after the whole mental distress part).
Meanwhile Azor outright doesn't acknowledge his own cruelty, he built systems that basically requires everyone to think like him to function effectively and then rants that it didn't work out because others don't think like him. He made a concession to nine other systems (the Guilds) when he set up the first Guildpact but the backup does display those "me or the highway" tendencies. Sure, he left before he could learn his mistakes, but when confronted with them he just went on a rant about how it's not his mistake instead of contemplation and the best example is right on Ixalan - he gifted the Sun (and his Laws) to those he deemed worthy first and when it didn't work out, he didn't stay and figure out how to fix it and instead decided to just transfer it to another faction instead. Guess what? None of them worked out, because Azor's techniques were fundamentally flawed from the start - he built systems to govern people without the consideration of others at all, only himself.
What Azor did was not the straightforward-form of cruelty like Jace, but a more abstract form of it that scars the social hierarchy of societies/planes, but is no less a cruelty. In fact it's probably more, because it's capable of breeding individual straightforward cases like Vraska's (that wasn't even a direct consequence, but a aftermath one). Jace, as a powerful telepath planeswalker might be able to bring individuals or groups to their kness, but Azor as an oldwalker back then, most certainly brought down entire nations/planes to theirs and he utilized it wrongly just as much as Jace does now.
Perhaps I am a bit too fixated on it, but the minute Azor ranted about it being the citizens' fault the systems failed, it spoke volumes of him much more than anything else in the story - from there I do not buy he ever created the laws to be broken in the first place, but simply expected people to be in the same line of thinking that he was in.
Jace might have done wrong, but Azor did the exact same mistakes on a larger scale. Jace still has the chance to redeem himself (especially with the running theory that Mage-Rings were Azor's doing, so this entire cruel decision is just a hook-back for Jace later on when he goes back to Vryn), but Ixalan itself is the nail in the coffin for Azor's redemption because he did exact same thing on the plane, was basically given the chance to recognize his mistakes (since he no longer could leave the plane) and well, pretty much didn't. Azor might have much more noble intentions than Jace, but when you've wrong fundamentals in practice that will have much larger detrimental consequences, I would say the more driven the intention, the worse it becomes instead.
We have might just met Azor directly, but we've been in a plane that has been baring the scars from wounds he inflicted since he actually stayed and I can assure you while a Sphinx oldwalker is easier to correct than an Elder Dragon (of any type) for sure, it's probably still a world harder than correcting Kor/Vampire oldwalkers and I assure you they probably have no time to even try (especially if a Primal Calamity may or may not be on the way).
You might argue that Azor should be above such human failings because of his age and perspective, but I don't think that's necessarily the case at all. He might be seeing things from a broader perspective, but that's just made him all the more out of touch with ordinary people and all the more ignorant of what they're actually like. And old age may bring wisdom for some people, but for others, the passage of time just makes them become more and more set in their ways. Azor definitely seems like an example of the latter, he probably sees his age as all the more justification for his arrogance and stubbornness. To a mind like his, each new experience is just more proof that he's right about everything, and every new piece of evidence is interpreted in a way that lines up with his existing worldview. It would almost be pitiful, except the story makes it all too clear that Azor's ignorance is very much a willing ignorance. He deliberately refuses to confront the truth because he'd rather have the self-righteous satisfaction of thinking that he already knows it. Whenever any evidence to the contrary shows up, he manages to find some convenient scapegoat that he can pin the blame on, rather than admitting that he might be wrong.
When he claims that only he is truly "worthy" of the Immortal Sun according to the system he devised, what does that really mean? He acts as if there's some greater set of values that he just happens to perfectly embody, but they're really just the values that he made up, of course he's going to fit them! It's circular logic. That's why I found it so satisfying when Jace turned his own rules against him. It wasn't just a practical victory, but a moral one. By saying "see, even you don't perfectly match your own standards" and backing up the claim with law magic that objectively proves him right, Jace is basically holding a mirror up to Azor and forcing him to confront his own hypocrisy.
As for whether Azor deserved the punishment he got, I'd say he deserved worse, but that's besides the point. The point is that it was necessary. As soon as the Immortal Sun was neutralized or destroyed, Azor would've been free to leave Ixalan again and would've resumed his crusade to "perfect" the multiverse. What was Jace supposed to do, let him go free to force his brand of order on countless more worlds? Would the bright creative spirit of Kaladesh be better served by some labyrinthine bureaucracy that makes the old Consulate look simple and free by comparison? Would the serene peace of Bant or the unbridled beauty of Naya be improved by an elaborate system of rules that none of the residents actually understand?
Well, as a nitpick, Bant is no longer serene. Naya is probably still beautiful though, but with dragons, goblins and zombies now.
I agree with the point you're making in the post though.
You keep the reiterating the bolded point, and while it's true, I've said it before and I'll say it again: One of the guilds was there to attempt to break the Guildpact. The Guildpact was literally broken by two guilds just doing their job: The Dimir for trying to dismantle the system, and the Boros for enforcing the law. If the original Guildpact had instead allowed for the Dimir to be exposed by another guild, it might still be around.
I say this to say while the system somehow remained intact for 10 millenia, it was actually a miracle it did IMO.
You keep saying this, this stupid strawman argument when ALL evidence we have seen says that Sphinxes have a preference to be alone, it is not a punishment to them. It is not, saying #NOTALLSPHINXES doesn't negate the evidence from the lore itself that Sphinxes are solitaire creatures, saying that Jace inflicted torture on Azor is ridiculous.
It is akin to saying that somebody would be torturing Ashling by setting her on fire.
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But then that becomes a different argument, that the Guildpact didn't do enough to save the Ravnicans from themselves. The factions predated the Guildpact. They were on the verge of destroying each other (and since they controlled everything, civilization) before the Guildpact. Saying the Dimir shouldn't have been able to succeed at undoing it is a valid criticism, but its a criticism that suggests the pact should have been stronger, not that its responsible for the atrocities committed by the guilds after its fall. The metaphor here is if you uninstall your antivirus, then get a virus, you can't blame your antivirus for letting the virus through. You could argue that the anti virus could have been cheaper per month, or less intrusive, or some other thing that would have made you less likely to uninstall it and have those be valid criticisms, but that doesn't make it the antiviruses fault for letting the virus through when it was no longer installed.
Unfortunately, the valid criticisms of the Guildpact just make it obvious that this is all a poorly handled retcon. The Guildpact made perfect sense when it was a collaborative venture between the ten guilds. Of course the Dimir would ensure they could work against it and succeed, and the other guilds would have to let that part be in it or else the Dimir wouldn't sign. Everything else follows from that, needing all ten guilds to build it and thus needing to appease all ten Paruns. Making Azor an oldwalker who travels plane to plane imposing laws and systems is what makes it not work. If this was the only time he did it, it would make more sense, because you could easily argue that its a unique, fantastic thing and something he can't do alone, so he had to appease the guilds, but once you have it be something he does all the time it gets trickier. He either has to make convoluted loophole filled systems everywhere he goes, or this has to be different from his other systems in some way. If its different, then its either because the forces of the guilds were too powerful to corral without their consent or input, or because he wants to involve the denizens of the planes he changes in the process, both of which are just speculation. Basically, until Creative gives us an explanation as to why Azor made the guildpact the way he did, its stupid, and its stupid because its clearly a stupidly done retcon. Just like RtR was stupid. Just like Scars block was stupid. Just like BfZ was stupid. Just like Shadows over Innistrad was honestly pretty stupid, but at least made up for it at times with atmospherics. They suck at retcons, and it shows.
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Origins was also generally a retcon, and the retcons varied in quality and impact. Liliana's was pretty minimal, and Nissa's changed her character.
Oh yeah, I lumped Nissa's terrible retcon in with BfZ as she's Zendikari, but I guess it makes more sense to take the whole thing together. Lili was a relatively minor retcon, Chandra's was handled alright because it was easily explained away by her simply not telling the truth to Gideon in PF, which she later admits. That's one instance where they actually did take an easy step to make a retcon work.
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Azor is the parun of the Azorius Guild. He co-signed the Guildpact and made himself subject to its laws and the laws of its "fail-safe" version.
So, Jace can't sentence just anyone outside of Ravnica, as he would've done so already. He can, however, render silent Azor.
I wonder if the story were given more length, there might be better solution to all sides of characters in this matter. You're right about Jace made an immediate decision at that spot, because there's almost no time left for storytellers left to deepen or broaden the scope further. For story's sake, I can see his verdict on Azor adds the most dramatic effect on the plot and their characters, though an old walker, no matter how A-Holish, deserve more screen time, as they are mirrors of the grand past.
Not once I defended Azor's arrogance and blaming attitude, though I understand why he believes citizens were at fault for this (please hear me out). Take video game for example, if a gamer could follow strategy guide faithfully, s/he could finish the game with a perfect score, anything else would be the player's own lacking. In Azor's case, he is very much the strategy writer while the people he ruled over were the gamers, the plane a game. The problem with this idealistic line of thinking is that, if Azor knew from experience that gamers would fail due to their imperfection, he should've learned by now that his strategies are not everlasting even if it initially served its purpose, because the "gamers" and the "game" itself ebb and flow, but he is apparently a very bad learner (which makes me wonder where he gained his law-making degree).
And because of this, I too feel that what Jace did was no different from Azor on a smaller scale, fundamental directions of both characters remains flawed, open to hypocrisy. I confess my frustration towards Jace was also because Azor as a character was banished hasty before we could learn more about his background, and also because Bolas is still looming over the multiverse, this is not the time to take a potential ally out of the picture, or in that manner. Then again, Jace has never been a true moral hero and blue ever a neutral color, it fits him.
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To be fair to Jace, exiling Azor to Useless Island is a very cautious move. In the moment, Azor was an obstacle and a dangerous X factor. Useless Island provided a way to take him out of play entirely and immediately, but the banishment can also be undone as easily as sailing to Useless Island and lifting the banishment (or possibly just lifting it, its not clear that he has to be speaking with Azor to do so). As it stands, Useless Island is an unambiguous upgrade from what Azor has been living in for hundreds of years (at least if I understood the story correctly that he locked himself in that room with the Immortal Sun). Jace never says how long he's being banished there, but it seems like he intends to leave him there forever, but leaving open the possibility of releasing him if he needs to or if with more information he decides to let him go.
Side note, would this banishment outlive the Living Guildpact? If not, then he's just giving Azor a tropical timeout.
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It's a magic based decree built by Azor himself, and a psychic hindrance in an (likely) immortal mind, so Azor is gonna stay there long after Jace passed away. Unless story speaks otherwise, Jace is probably not going to come back here ever again to change his verdict. Immediate and effective and a plot-related necessity, but it's hard not to feel bad for the sphinx.
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I think we've come to the consensus on the Jace topic, so I'm not going to comment on the topic further.
The problem with Azor believing that the citizens were at fault is simply because he doesn't recognize that life itself isn't a game that is meant to be truly 100% completed / perfected in any way, as a result each individual must pick partial criteria of life/games they personally determine to be of value to themselves and consider that their goal in life / the game. Take MMORPGs as one of the better exmaples, some people consider reaching level cap for their character to be their "100% goals", others the main storyline, yet others are just in for every collectible item in the game.
Objectively, none of them are really classified completionists (which requires all of the acheivements and more, especially if there are multiple classes / builds, so the leveling cap one is effectively multiplied accordingly as well). Very few are insane enough to accomplish everything and even fewer will really adopt the elitist mindset that being a true compeletionist is the only way to play the game, in fact chances are the vocal elitists come from the different categories of "completion" deeming their preference is better than others (or you know what, a closer example would be us within MTG debating with format is better and we sure make way more noise than someone who is a pro player in all levels of formats saying that his method of playing, while objectively correctly "correct" in the sense of completion is the right way to play the entire game of MTG technically).
Why does this pertain so much to Azor? Because he, in a way, is simultaneously both types of elitists (not that being any is really positive anyway). As an oldwalker (and a Sphinx to boot), he does have the expanded point of view of the world, so the total accomplishments of mere non-planeswalkers must seem like a trivial simple game that can be 100% completed, and this reflects greatly that he has never put his feet into the shoes of them. Simultaneously though, as an oldwalker among many others, he has never really considered besides what himself was doing (going around "setting order") to be a single path of the "oldwalker's life accomplishments" possible.
To be fair to Azor though, we've never really seen him interact with other oldwalkers (bar Ugin based on pretty obvious speculation here) since we just met him (and know nothing about his history). That being said, considered the insane power oldwalkers held then and their general insanity (and willingness to unleash their power on simple disagreements), I'm very inclined to say even if Azor met them, he probably found it ridiculously difficult to "convert" them and eventually just gave up on settled for general isolation (as per a lot of oldwalkers actually as Nahiri showed before) from them and went to "dominate" non-planeswalkers instead.
There's one defining factor between Azor and other oldwalkers when it comes to the isolation though and it's partial proof that Azor as a Sphinx indeed has a stronger preference for isolation and will reinforce it more compared to others - the first Guildpact was effectively also a planeswalker barrier preventing planeswalkers from entering (and possibly discovering) Ravnica in the first place. Even Sorin, who considered himself the ruler of Innistrad, only kept an eye on his plane and doesn't bother others if they aren't interrupting what he deems as the balance on his plane (Liliana comfortably lived there lots of times because she chose to stay behind the line Sorin warned her of at the start). Azor just decided other oldwalkers as a whole weren't worth the effort of warning because they were stubbornly different and chose to outright isolate Ravnica instead, when he is just as stubborn.
I didn't want to talk about Jace, but the similarity between them appeared again - Azor thinks "out of sight, out of mind" works, so he chooses to isolate himself from other oldwalkers more actively than most basically in denial of their near-infinite potential, chose to see his own "duty" as the only correct way and when said "duty" involves simplifying planes of non-planeswalkers into "games with easy 100% completion", without recognizing each individual in those games are effectively leading their own lives not very different from the one he just denied himself of, just from a much smaller, more mortal perspective, I'll say he got the basic fundamentals for life wrong...
I'd say that really depends on if the magic at work is reliant on the Guildpact for more than just being cast. There is so much about the living Guildpact we don't know surrounding what happens when Jace dies. Jace didn't use his mind magic, he used the magic of the Guildpact. Does its nature change when he dies? Is it passed on, or does the maze get run again? We know that when the Guildpact was broken all the rules and restrictions it created were rendered moot, so what about when Jace dies?
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ten competing guilds, established with specific names, identities, cultures, and goals, remain more or less intact for ten thousand years. Not one of them splintered, not one of them fell apart, not one of them was replaced or subsumed or conquered, not one of them struck off to forge a new identity for itself or underwent significant revolution. Either Azor is an unparalleled genius, or the plane was designed with little appreciation for how history or societies really work. This is fantasy, I know. But it's a trope that still bugs the hell out of me. For comparison:
- The Mongol Empire lasted three generations, then splintered apart and collapsed.
- The Roman Empire lasted intact from 27 BC to 395 AD, just over 400 years. The Western Empire fell a century later.
- The British Empire lasted just over 400 years.
- Writing has only existed for about 5,000 years.
- The wheel was invented between 7,000 and 8,000 years ago.
- The agricultural revolution occurred about 12,000 years ago.
Honestly this is a problem for a lot of fictional universes, whether Fantastical or High Tech. *cough*Star Wars*cough*
Writers use big numbers because it sounds badass, but never stop to really consider the implications of said numbers.
Counterpoint: its not a problem in this particular instance because it was explicitly maintained through magic designed specifically to maintain the system mostly as is.
Many changes still occurred. Ravnica was a regular fantasy setting pre Guildpact, and only became a plane spanning city scape as a side effect of the Guildpact both ensuring overall peace and giving each guild except for the Dimir something constructive to do. Some guilds radically changed their structure. the Gruul became scattered clans fighting against the city only after the city eliminated the natural areas, and the simic became mad scientists for the same reason, as the only way for them to fulfill their role of helping natural life grow and thrive was to modify it to fit the city. The Golgari changed from a Necromancers private army, to a guild of outcasts led by monsters, to a guild of outcasts led by elves. Those are only the changes that are explicitly mentioned or shown.
Overall, however, the basic structure of ten guilds was maintained because the Guildpact would intervene to prevent any guild from becoming weak enough to collapse or strong enough to dominate the system. Thats it.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Maybe the Guildpact should also have included a clause or two about not covering the entire surface of the plane in city so that the Gruul and Simic (and Selesnya, I guess?) guilds didn't become as warped as they did.
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No changes in place;
Dinosaurs/ Sun Empire in 1st place and have 51 points (up 19 points)
Merfolk/ River Herald in 2nd place and have 46 points (up 18 points)
Vampires/ Legion of Dusk in 3rd place and have 42 points (up 22 points)
Pirates/ Brazen Coalition in 4th place and have 29 points (up 11 points)
On the 5th the geocatch thing is added in;
1st will get 12 Points
2nd will get 10 Points
3rd will get 8 Points
4th will get 6 Points
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Jace used Guildpact to subdue Azor, and while he asked for permission to enter Azor's mind, Azor really didn't have a choice, since Jace technically could punish him with Guildpact if he does not permit it. Once he's in Azor's mind, I'm sure Jace had pulled a few strings to ensure the he and/or the Guildpact remain effective beyond its current state, it's the "logical" thing to do as a blue mage.
I mentioned in one of my post that Azor, perhaps not unlike Alhammarret, wanted a little chaos and competition as long as the grand scheme holds; on Vryn was the Mage Rings, on Ravnica perhaps is Azorius remaining in power, because you can't possibly be the judge if everyone does things right, and through judging and punishing the Azorius solidified its status.
And remember the universe of Magic has a powerful plot armor call MAGIC, which in sense almost like God's willing, to keep things the way they are without breaking down.
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