Can we um, tone down the vitriol here?
Yes, there are conflicts with Liliana being a member of the Gatewatch, and yes I imagine that there was some fallout when she left without much of a fight...
However,
She is also a powerful planeswalker and (while maybe these are my own thoughts being Abzan and all) that power can serve noble purposes if channeled correctly. I am enough of a realist to understand that sometimes you have to use all the tools in your belt, including those deemed nasty, dark, but powerful.
Also, all of the Gatewatch planeswalkers bring conflict to the group if the team's purposes end up being too radically different from their own philosophies and values.
Chandra values freedom and choice. She's not going to join causes that subjugates people in their creative, personal expressions, particularly those that don't jeopardize the safety and freedoms other people- much.
Nissa values the environment and preserving natural balance, whatever that means for the plane in question. It is unlikely she would join in causes where she feels the net harm and damage to the planar ecology is greater than the benefits to such environment and ecology.
Gideon cares about doing that which he feels is 'just' and 'right'. This is perhaps one of the most flexible standards as it is not entirely clear what is included in these principles. We know that he prefers to work within the confines of the law if possible and that he cares about both individuals and societies as a whole. Where he chooses to err in these may depend on Creative.
Jace's own ideology is also fairly flexible. He is concerned with the 'big picture', personal responsibilities, Learning, and those with whom he's formed an alliance with. Threats to either the Multiverse, Ravnica, the Gatewatch, or learning opportunities are likely to motivate him the most. He is also motivated to learn as much as he can about subjects that interest him.
Lilliana is the easiest to figure out. If it helps or benefits Liliana in some way, particularly with her remaining demons or controlling the Veil then she'll do it, especially if the benefits outweigh the costs to her. She has also no problem trying to gain psychological advantages over other Gatewatch members, particularly if it allows her to better control or manipulate them to better meet her own agenda.
Ajani- not entirely sure. He seems to be a mixture of both Gideon's and Nissa's values, as he cares about almost everyone including nature, and dislikes abuses of power and ability.
I think we will see more conflict as more members join and as new objectives arise that may conflict with individual members. The Eldrazi and Bolas are pretty universal Threats to most value and ideological systems. The biggest sticking point I see in the future is the question as to when should the Gatewatch interfere and when should they not.
I get what you're saying, but here's the thing, Liliana isn't just a very powerful planeswalkers, but she also extremely afraid of of dying (most people she killed, her deals with the demons and Bolas, leaving her "friends" behind in Amonkher) she did all of those thing to survive, not just that but she doesn't feel enough empathy to be part of a group of people who wants to protect those who can't protect themselves, remember when she forced Thalia to destroy the Hellvault? do you think she cared about the thousand who probably died because all of those demons were set free ? Liliana is a survivor she will do what she has to to live.
Now imagine this: If she made a sacrifice (a leg an arm,her powers maybe even her life) then an entire plane will be saved, if she doesn't do anything an entire world dies, but she won't lose anything, she won't lose any of the things i mentioned above, she won't lose any friends (Jace) which one do you honestly think she would choose?
The fact is, Liliana has absolutely no reason to be a part of the Gatewatch other then being powerful, if they want a black walker on the Gatewatch, they have Vraska and Sorin, Sorin doesn't look like a fit, but i can see him giving his life if he knew for sure that his death would be for the greater good of the multiver and of course of Innistrad, Vraska on the other hand woudn't fight for people who can't fight for themselves, but she would teach them how to fight, if they don't see a reason why to use Sorin or Vraska, the can always create another walker to fill the role of black planeswalker.
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Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
I think people are missing a key element about Lili in the gatewatch. The creative department is in the business of telling stories. Stories often mean conflict. You know what bringing a character like Liliana Vess into a group like the gatewatch does? It makes a story. Creative could very well have never intended for Lili to last as a member. They made the character after all. Or, and here's something else people seem to be overlooking as a possibility, that she could grow and change as a character.
I'm getting really tired of having to say "let them tell the story they want to tell."
I think people are missing a key element about Lili in the gatewatch. The creative department is in the business of telling stories. Stories often mean conflict. You know what bringing a character like Liliana Vess into a group like the gatewatch does? It makes a story. Creative could very well have never intended for Lili to last as a member. They made the character after all. Or, and here's something else people seem to be overlooking as a possibility, that she could grow and change as a character.
I'm getting really tired of having to say "let them tell the story they want to tell."
I really hope you aren’t referring to me my friend haha, because I actually agree.
Conflict is what makes stories interesting and there are no promises that the Gatewatch of today will be the same in a few years; I mean, just look at the Avengers!
And as for whoever was saying that Vraska or Sorin made better sense than Lilliana, all I can say is:
The members of the Gatewatch weren’t exactly looking to recruit anybody when they met these individuals. Happy coincidence led Lilliana’s goals and aims to mesh with the rest of the Gatewatch, and so far it has yet to conflict too terribly-
it will, give it time, and as Gutterstorm said, Lilliana herself might change as well, slowly but surely giving less friction to the group.
Sorin (as much as I love him) expressed nothing but disdain for Jace and erred on putting down Nahiri instead of trying to save his plane, because he believed it was already lost, irreparably damaged.
And Vraska couldn’t possibly have joined the Gatewatch as she had already been recruited by Bolas, needed time to warm up to Jace and vice versa, and is currently the Teams ‘Ace in a hole’ in the future round2 with Bolas. She’s not a good fit right now to join.
Lilliana serves the “token evil teammate” trope just fine, and as everyone knows, black isn’t even necessarily evil, just self-interested.
I’d be happy to work alongside her- barring I had a way to stab her in the back if she double-crossed me.
But I’m Abzan, I get it. Nothing personal, just business.
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“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I really hope you aren’t referring to me my friend haha, because I actually agree.
Conflict is what makes stories interesting and there are no promises that the Gatewatch of today will be the same in a few years; I mean, just look at the Avengers!
And as for whoever was saying that Vraska or Sorin made better sense than Lilliana, all I can say is:
The members of the Gatewatch weren’t exactly looking to recruit anybody when they met these individuals. Happy coincidence led Lilliana’s goals and aims to mesh with the rest of the Gatewatch, and so far it has yet to conflict too terribly-
it will, give it time, and as Gutterstorm said, Lilliana herself might change as well, slowly but surely giving less friction to the group.
Sorin (as much as I love him) expressed nothing but disdain for Jace and erred on putting down Nahiri instead of trying to save his plane, because he believed it was already lost, irreparably damaged.
And Vraska couldn’t possibly have joined the Gatewatch as she had already been recruited by Bolas, needed time to warm up to Jace and vice versa, and is currently the Teams ‘Ace in a hole’ in the future round2 with Bolas. She’s not a good fit right now to join.
Lilliana serves the “token evil teammate” trope just fine, and as everyone knows, black isn’t even necessarily evil, just self-interested.
I’d be happy to work alongside her- barring I had a way to stab her in the back if she double-crossed me.
But I’m Abzan, I get it. Nothing personal, just business.
Certainly not. It was just a general thing I was noticing about the people who were complaining about her and the whole "betrayal" thing.
I think people are missing a key element about Lili in the gatewatch. The creative department is in the business of telling stories. Stories often mean conflict. You know what bringing a character like Liliana Vess into a group like the gatewatch does? It makes a story. Creative could very well have never intended for Lili to last as a member. They made the character after all. Or, and here's something else people seem to be overlooking as a possibility, that she could grow and change as a character.
I'm getting really tired of having to say "let them tell the story they want to tell."
The problem with your reasoning is that not all conflicts are created equal. The conflict between a hero and a villain is fundamentally different from the conflict between two heroes, and conflicts also need resolutions. The conflict between Jace and Gideon is the kind of conflict that two heroes can have without losing their moral standing as heroes. They both have noble goals, but they disagree on where the group's priorities lie and how to get things done. Gideon is a natural leader, but Jace is a natural planner, and that brings them into conflict. But any one conflict between them can be resolved and compromises can be found between them, and its (potentially) interesting to watch that process. Just ask fans of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Lilliana however wasn't a hero to begin with, she's a sociopath. She uses other people to get what she wants, and the instant those people realize they are being treated as means to an end the only reasonable thing to do is to cut her out of their lives. Assuming she doesn't betray them first. Which, oh, right. She already did. She certainly isn't going to change, or at least its not a reasonable expectation when she often reminds people that she is 200 years old and rather liked being an immortal Oldwalker. This is why Jace finally severed the symbolic connection between himself and her at the end of Ixalan when he planeswalked to Gideon on the New Weatherlight. He can find common ground with Gideon, but the relationship between him and Lilliana was always one sided. So too is her relationship with the rest of the Gatewatch: she fundamentally disagrees with Gideon's moral code and calls him "meat-slab" as a reminder that she would love to turn him into a zombie, she sees Chandra as a weapon that just needs to be fine tuned to suit her needs, and she does whatever she can to sabotage Nissa's friendship with Chandra, even going so far as belittle her and her unique worldview as the group's only elf. There is no other way this can end other than for the other characters to either die doing something she manipulated them into doing as happened on Amonkhet, or for them to realize her oath was just a ruse and kick her out. I would call her a Darth Vader waiting to happen, but at least Anikan was a good person before his tragic fall.
Remember, the artist who drew her in the first Innistrad block asked the creative team what really defined her character and they came back with "she's a b****." Word for word.
That is why she frustrates people as a member of the Gatewatewatch. The only reason she was allowed into the group was that Jace vouched for her after Tamiyo declined, and that feels kinda implausible since the other characters have strong moral commitments and could have asked around Innistrad to learn about the whole "coerced someone into destroying the Hellvault" thing. The longer she remains a part of the Gatewatch now that Jace has severed his romantic attachment to her, other characters have witnessed her defect to Bolas's side, and Ajani has joined as the wizened mentor for the other four (and who knows? Maybe Jaya or Teferi will join to be the resident Oldwalker in the group), the more implausible it is for her to remain unless the Oaths were some kind of Law Magic that binds them together. Which she would hate to find out was the case.
I think people are missing a key element about Lili in the gatewatch. The creative department is in the business of telling stories. Stories often mean conflict. You know what bringing a character like Liliana Vess into a group like the gatewatch does? It makes a story. Creative could very well have never intended for Lili to last as a member. They made the character after all. Or, and here's something else people seem to be overlooking as a possibility, that she could grow and change as a character.
I'm getting really tired of having to say "let them tell the story they want to tell."
The problem with your reasoning is that not all conflicts are created equal. The conflict between a hero and a villain is fundamentally different from the conflict between two heroes, and conflicts also need resolutions. The conflict between Jace and Gideon is the kind of conflict that two heroes can have without losing their moral standing as heroes. They both have noble goals, but they disagree on where the group's priorities lie and how to get things done. Gideon is a natural leader, but Jace is a natural planner, and that brings them into conflict. But any one conflict between them can be resolved and compromises can be found between them, and its (potentially) interesting to watch that process. Just ask fans of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Lilliana however wasn't a hero to begin with, she's a sociopath. She uses other people to get what she wants, and the instant those people realize they are being treated as means to an end the only reasonable thing to do is to cut her out of their lives. Assuming she doesn't betray them first. Which, oh, right. She already did. She certainly isn't going to change, or at least its not a reasonable expectation when she often reminds people that she is 200 years old and rather liked being an immortal Oldwalker. This is why Jace finally severed the symbolic connection between himself and her at the end of Ixalan when he planeswalked to Gideon on the New Weatherlight. He can find common ground with Gideon, but the relationship between him and Lilliana was always one sided. So too is her relationship with the rest of the Gatewatch: she fundamentally disagrees with Gideon's moral code and calls him "meat-slab" as a reminder that she would love to turn him into a zombie, she sees Chandra as a weapon that just needs to be fine tuned to suit her needs, and she does whatever she can to sabotage Nissa's friendship with Chandra, even going so far as belittle her and her unique worldview as the group's only elf. There is no other way this can end other than for the other characters to either die doing something she manipulated them into doing as happened on Amonkhet, or for them to realize her oath was just a ruse and kick her out. I would call her a Darth Vader waiting to happen, but at least Anikan was a good person before his tragic fall.
Remember, the artist who drew her in the first Innistrad block asked the creative team what really defined her character and they came back with "she's a b****." Word for word.
That is why she frustrates people as a member of the Gatewatewatch. The only reason she was allowed into the group was that Jace vouched for her after Tamiyo declined, and that feels kinda implausible since the other characters have strong moral commitments and could have asked around Innistrad to learn about the whole "coerced someone into destroying the Hellvault" thing. The longer she remains a part of the Gatewatch now that Jace has severed his romantic attachment to her, other characters have witnessed her defect to Bolas's side, and Ajani has joined as the wizened mentor for the other four (and who knows? Maybe Jaya or Teferi will join to be the resident Oldwalker in the group), the more implausible it is for her to remain unless the Oaths were some kind of Law Magic that binds them together. Which she would hate to find out was the case.
I think ya’ll just have to accept the fact that not all players and fans consider the characters from such a stark, ‘hero’ or ‘villain’, ‘good’ or ‘evil’ perspective.
It’s fine for you to feel the way you do.
You are probably mono W or WG. Congratulations, I’m sure there’s a sticker somewhere, you’re a vocal lot haha!
Were I still Mormon I woulda loved to have knocked on your door during my missionary days as I’m sure my past-self and you would’ve had a lot in common.
(of course it doesn’t always work that way. Strangely, a lot of classical religions with strong W tendencies seem pretty angsty at other religionists with similar but different convictions. Strange.)
In truth though, a lot of us players can imagine working with a group like the Gatewatch while admittedly also being a b**** or a b****** (depending upon one’s gender/sexual identity preferences of course!). Like Lilliana.
I fully know I’m a bit of the latter. Abzan is fully capable of putting oneself first, because in all honesty, if I die, who else is gonna be able to protect the fort, my world or my naive wards like me?
We all have different value systems, are made up of different mtg colours and are unlikely to agree on everything.
Rather than looking at our arguments for accepting Lilliana’s inclusion in the Gatewatch, and the storyline as full of problems when they contradict your understanding of protagonists and antagonists...
..look at it holistically as a mere component of a franchise with lots of different people and value systems within it. But there I go, the G in me is yapping!
Much like no real world human is a particular D&D alignment no real world human is a grouping of magic colors. Real people are all five colors and more.
Just saying maybe don't reduce people, that you probably don't know as well as yourself, to such small slivers of themselves.
I didn't say she was a villain, just that not all conflicts are or feel alike and its an easy thing to explain by example. And there is the TVTropes concept of Blue VS Orange morality where the conflict is completely unconventional. When done right that can be extremely interesting; E.G. Neil Gaiman's Sandman series. And after all, the protagonist of a story isn't necessarily a Hero. That is why I said Lilliana is a sociopath. She has been the protagonist before, and her stories make sense when you view her as having an antisocial personality. Using Magic's color pie to define the personality of real people is as silly as using the D&D alignment grid for that purpose, and characters in the story should also be more complicated IMO. In fact, they are; its an inescapable result of writing well rounded human beings. So I am considering her from a more complicated perspective than "good" or "evil." But even from a social-psychological as well as narrative perspective, her conflict with the rest of the Gatewatch can only plausibly end one of two ways. And in the first place, its still a baffling decision both in and out of universe to bring her into the group to begin with.
If you like seeing the conflict that happens when a sociopath is allowed into a group of friends and heroes, good for you. Raistlin did it better. And his dialogue was better, too. But for me, its boring that the writers chose yet again to make their archetype defining Black character a one dimensional sociopath pretending to be a hero. A lot of my favorite characters in Magic have been black characters (hence my rejection of your judgement of me). Xantcha, Urza (five color, yes, but black all the same), and Yahenni are all in my top ten favorite Magic characters (the #1 slot goes to Jhoira). Each show more interesting aspects of Black than Lilliana does. Xantcha: Will to Power and humanistic pragmatism. Urza: drive and ambition, but also callousness. Yahenni: utilitarian hedonism and Existential coping. And so on. But many on the writing team have a one dimensional understanding of Black as "the color of jerks". That's just as boring as our white hero Superman Meatslab, Hero of Zendikar. Actually, all of the remaining Gatewatch members besides Ajani need a reboot like Jace got in Ixalan. I'm only focusing on Lilliana right now because I thought the argument in defense of her was poor.
The best storytelling in a fantasy world is in Game of Thrones, where characters are different shades of grey. I hope creative goes this route with Lily. She’s not a hero, but there’s a reason why she’s so popular. Is her unleashing demons on a population so she can kill one that has power over her morally justified? Is John Wick killing hundreds of people because his dog was killed morally justified? Sometimes the best heroes aren’t traditional heroes.
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Your advice is noted.
It is also casually dismissed.
I just don’t care.
It is hardly related to the discussion at hand, nor does it really conflict with my above point.
In fact I’d argue that the point I was making was rather holistic as a whole. All philosophies have strengths and weaknesses and if Lilliana being a member of the Gatewatch doesn’t make sense under somebody’s philosophy, well, it makes sense to myself and several others.
And unfortunately that’s what I feel that this debate has come down to.
Some of us might be ok working with sociopaths to achieve an ends. And I think it made sense particularly when her entry began. Will it end poorly?
Probably, but we’ll see.
Just because people are complex enough to fit into all five colours of magic does not mean people do not have leanings.
Categories exist not because people fit them perfectly but because people DO have leanings, preferences, many of which are shared by other likeminded people. The key is to use categories and these philosophies as a way to understand people while understanding that individuals will still not fit them completely.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I don't see what is "holistic" about her inclusion or whatever you are trying to convey. If you want a character who have been a natural fit it would have been Yahenni, except he wasn't a planeswalker. I just don't see what her strengths are as a member of a team. And I'm seeing many flaws in her character as a team player, even easy to overlook behaviors like her general pattern of laziness and tendency to let others-- team members, zombies, servants etc.-- do things for her rather than contributing effort. That kind of attitude is well understood to be parasitic in organizations. I think the issue is that the creative and design teams forced her character into assuming a role that she wasn't designed for. She is just better as a solo character, arguably like Batman in that regard. As a solo character, many of her worst qualities are muted. She has no one around her to manipulate or belittle, and she can tell her own story of beating her demons on her own time. That seems to be the part of her character and her story that people actually like.
And I admit, I'm drawing blanks on what character would have made for a better Black inclusion prior to Vraska's Ixalan appearance. Its bound to be a problem when the game keeps portraying black as "the color of jerks." I mean, someone suggested Sorin, but he already demonstrated that he has his own teamwork issues... though he would still be a better fit than Lilliana.
The best storytelling in a fantasy world is in Game of Thrones, where characters are different shades of grey. I hope creative goes this route with Lily. She’s not a hero, but there’s a reason why she’s so popular. Is her unleashing demons on a population so she can kill one that has power over her morally justified? Is John Wick killing hundreds of people because his dog was killed morally justified? Sometimes the best heroes aren’t traditional heroes.
Martin's characters (what's left of them) are one dimensional and flat. There are far better authors out there, in terms of character development, prose, plot development, non-gratuitous use of violence to drive a story, and most importantly, story completion.
That being said, your point stands. Characters are far more believable when their attributes are a spectrum. We're well past the point in fantasy now where good vs evil or christian allegory is sufficient to keep us all compelled. The difference here in MtG is that the stories are told over a long time, within the context of an evolving game, as a way to flesh out said game. It's never going to be the next Tolkien.
I think they're doing well though - the Bolas confrontation was a turning point for the characters - Jace shifted away and had his memories returned to him, regained some confidence, Gideon finally had it slapped into him that pure brawn is sometimes not enough and he's not always the biggest kid in the playground, Nissa continues her spiritual holistic awakening, Chandra most likely is very worried for her friends and feeling fragile. Whether or not this is entirely accurate, it all shows that they're either evolving, devolving or changing in some aspect. It just happens in slow motion when its tied in to an associated card game played out over years.
I think people are just getting antsy for a big payoff; it's easier to see a square peg in a round hole when you're able to read on to the end of the book and see how it resolves. Here, we don't have that option, as content is eked out to us piece by piece.
Hopefully Liliana gets the kind of development on Dominaria that's necessary to make her feel less strange as an inclusion in the Gatewatch.
If they don't do that, and she continues being a ***** after killing Belzenlok, that's fine too as long as there's a good reason for it.
I expect that Belzenlok will come uncomfortably close to killing Jace or Chandra(Jace would be the most effective for character growth purposes) and she'll realize that it upset her not just because "that's mine" but because she has actual feelings for them. If its Jace its be particularly tragic as just as she re-realizes that she actually cares about him he is realizing that he doesn't care nearly as much as he thought he did about her. Either his rejection of her will send her off the deep end and she'll bail on them just in time for Vraska to take her place or she'll grow and realize that he is his own person who gets to chose his own path.
If nothing else it starts Liliana on a new arc since her demons will be dead and gone and the focus will now go to the chain veil and the raven man. Considering both might lead to planar-level threat might even be a new reason for her to stay in the gatewatch, to keep a check on her/chain/raven man.
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Hopefully Liliana gets the kind of development on Dominaria that's necessary to make her feel less strange as an inclusion in the Gatewatch.
If they don't do that, and she continues being a ***** after killing Belzenlok, that's fine too as long as there's a good reason for it.
I expect that Belzenlok will come uncomfortably close to killing Jace or Chandra(Jace would be the most effective for character growth purposes) and she'll realize that it upset her not just because "that's mine" but because she has actual feelings for them. If its Jace its be particularly tragic as just as she re-realizes that she actually cares about him he is realizing that he doesn't care nearly as much as he thought he did about her. Either his rejection of her will send her off the deep end and she'll bail on them just in time for Vraska to take her place or she'll grow and realize that he is his own person who gets to chose his own path.
If I understood it all correctly, he has regained all his memories of the past + new mental strength so he is more powerful now then he ever was before. I also doubt he will play much of a role on Dominaria, as he wants to take his guildpact duties more serious (he thinks so at the end of the Rix story) and he also sees Liliana's game with him for what it truly is now.
So given that he is now above his Mindsculptor level, isn't the new reawakened Jace's power level over 9000? And if it is, what makesyou think Belzenlok would even stand a chance against him?
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If I understood it all correctly, he has regained all his memories of the past + new mental strength so he is more powerful now then he ever was before. I also doubt he will play much of a role on Dominaria, as he wants to take his guildpact duties more serious (he thinks so at the end of the Rix story) and he also sees Liliana's game with him for what it truly is now.
So given that he is now above his Mindsculptor level, isn't the new reawakened Jace's power level over 9000? And if it is, what makesyou think Belzenlok would even stand a chance against him?
There was nothing indicating he got some sort of extra boost. He got his old memories back which includes his training with Alhammaret. Also Belzenlok is supposedly the most powerful of the bunch and it took the lot of them to take down Razaketh. Belz is also the leader of the new Cabal. Meaning he must have a great deal of mental fortitude.
If I understood it all correctly, he has regained all his memories of the past + new mental strength so he is more powerful now then he ever was before. I also doubt he will play much of a role on Dominaria, as he wants to take his guildpact duties more serious (he thinks so at the end of the Rix story) and he also sees Liliana's game with him for what it truly is now.
So given that he is now above his Mindsculptor level, isn't the new reawakened Jace's power level over 9000? And if it is, what makesyou think Belzenlok would even stand a chance against him?
There was nothing indicating he got some sort of extra boost. He got his old memories back which includes his training with Alhammaret. Also Belzenlok is supposedly the most powerful of the bunch and it took the lot of them to take down Razaketh. Belz is also the leader of the new Cabal. Meaning he must have a great deal of mental fortitude.
The Razaketh argument does not hold, because Jace was not at his full power back then. If he was, he could probably just have protected Liliana from Razaketh's control magics like he protected Vraska from Azor's (Because that part had nothing do with him being the Guildpact).
Now I will admit upfront that I know nothing of Cabal lore as I had Magic off-time when Oddysey block released, but weren't they about pit fighting? If so, wouldn't physical fortitude be way more logical from him to have then mental one? You know, as far as having the most powerful Elder Dragon Planeswalker as a friend does not get you there already?
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I get what you're saying, but here's the thing, Liliana isn't just a very powerful planeswalkers, but she also extremely afraid of of dying (most people she killed, her deals with the demons and Bolas, leaving her "friends" behind in Amonkher) she did all of those thing to survive, not just that but she doesn't feel enough empathy to be part of a group of people who wants to protect those who can't protect themselves, remember when she forced Thalia to destroy the Hellvault? do you think she cared about the thousand who probably died because all of those demons were set free ? Liliana is a survivor she will do what she has to to live.
Now imagine this: If she made a sacrifice (a leg an arm,her powers maybe even her life) then an entire plane will be saved, if she doesn't do anything an entire world dies, but she won't lose anything, she won't lose any of the things i mentioned above, she won't lose any friends (Jace) which one do you honestly think she would choose?
The fact is, Liliana has absolutely no reason to be a part of the Gatewatch other then being powerful, if they want a black walker on the Gatewatch, they have Vraska and Sorin, Sorin doesn't look like a fit, but i can see him giving his life if he knew for sure that his death would be for the greater good of the multiver and of course of Innistrad, Vraska on the other hand woudn't fight for people who can't fight for themselves, but she would teach them how to fight, if they don't see a reason why to use Sorin or Vraska, the can always create another walker to fill the role of black planeswalker.
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I'm getting really tired of having to say "let them tell the story they want to tell."
I really hope you aren’t referring to me my friend haha, because I actually agree.
Conflict is what makes stories interesting and there are no promises that the Gatewatch of today will be the same in a few years; I mean, just look at the Avengers!
And as for whoever was saying that Vraska or Sorin made better sense than Lilliana, all I can say is:
The members of the Gatewatch weren’t exactly looking to recruit anybody when they met these individuals. Happy coincidence led Lilliana’s goals and aims to mesh with the rest of the Gatewatch, and so far it has yet to conflict too terribly-
it will, give it time, and as Gutterstorm said, Lilliana herself might change as well, slowly but surely giving less friction to the group.
Sorin (as much as I love him) expressed nothing but disdain for Jace and erred on putting down Nahiri instead of trying to save his plane, because he believed it was already lost, irreparably damaged.
And Vraska couldn’t possibly have joined the Gatewatch as she had already been recruited by Bolas, needed time to warm up to Jace and vice versa, and is currently the Teams ‘Ace in a hole’ in the future round2 with Bolas. She’s not a good fit right now to join.
Lilliana serves the “token evil teammate” trope just fine, and as everyone knows, black isn’t even necessarily evil, just self-interested.
I’d be happy to work alongside her- barring I had a way to stab her in the back if she double-crossed me.
But I’m Abzan, I get it. Nothing personal, just business.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Certainly not. It was just a general thing I was noticing about the people who were complaining about her and the whole "betrayal" thing.
The problem with your reasoning is that not all conflicts are created equal. The conflict between a hero and a villain is fundamentally different from the conflict between two heroes, and conflicts also need resolutions. The conflict between Jace and Gideon is the kind of conflict that two heroes can have without losing their moral standing as heroes. They both have noble goals, but they disagree on where the group's priorities lie and how to get things done. Gideon is a natural leader, but Jace is a natural planner, and that brings them into conflict. But any one conflict between them can be resolved and compromises can be found between them, and its (potentially) interesting to watch that process. Just ask fans of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Lilliana however wasn't a hero to begin with, she's a sociopath. She uses other people to get what she wants, and the instant those people realize they are being treated as means to an end the only reasonable thing to do is to cut her out of their lives. Assuming she doesn't betray them first. Which, oh, right. She already did. She certainly isn't going to change, or at least its not a reasonable expectation when she often reminds people that she is 200 years old and rather liked being an immortal Oldwalker. This is why Jace finally severed the symbolic connection between himself and her at the end of Ixalan when he planeswalked to Gideon on the New Weatherlight. He can find common ground with Gideon, but the relationship between him and Lilliana was always one sided. So too is her relationship with the rest of the Gatewatch: she fundamentally disagrees with Gideon's moral code and calls him "meat-slab" as a reminder that she would love to turn him into a zombie, she sees Chandra as a weapon that just needs to be fine tuned to suit her needs, and she does whatever she can to sabotage Nissa's friendship with Chandra, even going so far as belittle her and her unique worldview as the group's only elf. There is no other way this can end other than for the other characters to either die doing something she manipulated them into doing as happened on Amonkhet, or for them to realize her oath was just a ruse and kick her out. I would call her a Darth Vader waiting to happen, but at least Anikan was a good person before his tragic fall.
Remember, the artist who drew her in the first Innistrad block asked the creative team what really defined her character and they came back with "she's a b****." Word for word.
That is why she frustrates people as a member of the Gatewatewatch. The only reason she was allowed into the group was that Jace vouched for her after Tamiyo declined, and that feels kinda implausible since the other characters have strong moral commitments and could have asked around Innistrad to learn about the whole "coerced someone into destroying the Hellvault" thing. The longer she remains a part of the Gatewatch now that Jace has severed his romantic attachment to her, other characters have witnessed her defect to Bolas's side, and Ajani has joined as the wizened mentor for the other four (and who knows? Maybe Jaya or Teferi will join to be the resident Oldwalker in the group), the more implausible it is for her to remain unless the Oaths were some kind of Law Magic that binds them together. Which she would hate to find out was the case.
I think ya’ll just have to accept the fact that not all players and fans consider the characters from such a stark, ‘hero’ or ‘villain’, ‘good’ or ‘evil’ perspective.
It’s fine for you to feel the way you do.
You are probably mono W or WG. Congratulations, I’m sure there’s a sticker somewhere, you’re a vocal lot haha!
Were I still Mormon I woulda loved to have knocked on your door during my missionary days as I’m sure my past-self and you would’ve had a lot in common.
(of course it doesn’t always work that way. Strangely, a lot of classical religions with strong W tendencies seem pretty angsty at other religionists with similar but different convictions. Strange.)
In truth though, a lot of us players can imagine working with a group like the Gatewatch while admittedly also being a b**** or a b****** (depending upon one’s gender/sexual identity preferences of course!). Like Lilliana.
I fully know I’m a bit of the latter. Abzan is fully capable of putting oneself first, because in all honesty, if I die, who else is gonna be able to protect the fort, my world or my naive wards like me?
We all have different value systems, are made up of different mtg colours and are unlikely to agree on everything.
Rather than looking at our arguments for accepting Lilliana’s inclusion in the Gatewatch, and the storyline as full of problems when they contradict your understanding of protagonists and antagonists...
..look at it holistically as a mere component of a franchise with lots of different people and value systems within it. But there I go, the G in me is yapping!
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
<_<
Much like no real world human is a particular D&D alignment no real world human is a grouping of magic colors. Real people are all five colors and more.
Just saying maybe don't reduce people, that you probably don't know as well as yourself, to such small slivers of themselves.
If you like seeing the conflict that happens when a sociopath is allowed into a group of friends and heroes, good for you. Raistlin did it better. And his dialogue was better, too. But for me, its boring that the writers chose yet again to make their archetype defining Black character a one dimensional sociopath pretending to be a hero. A lot of my favorite characters in Magic have been black characters (hence my rejection of your judgement of me). Xantcha, Urza (five color, yes, but black all the same), and Yahenni are all in my top ten favorite Magic characters (the #1 slot goes to Jhoira). Each show more interesting aspects of Black than Lilliana does. Xantcha: Will to Power and humanistic pragmatism. Urza: drive and ambition, but also callousness. Yahenni: utilitarian hedonism and Existential coping. And so on. But many on the writing team have a one dimensional understanding of Black as "the color of jerks". That's just as boring as our white hero
SupermanMeatslab, Hero of Zendikar. Actually, all of the remaining Gatewatch members besides Ajani need a reboot like Jace got in Ixalan. I'm only focusing on Lilliana right now because I thought the argument in defense of her was poor.JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It is also casually dismissed.
I just don’t care.
It is hardly related to the discussion at hand, nor does it really conflict with my above point.
In fact I’d argue that the point I was making was rather holistic as a whole. All philosophies have strengths and weaknesses and if Lilliana being a member of the Gatewatch doesn’t make sense under somebody’s philosophy, well, it makes sense to myself and several others.
And unfortunately that’s what I feel that this debate has come down to.
Some of us might be ok working with sociopaths to achieve an ends. And I think it made sense particularly when her entry began. Will it end poorly?
Probably, but we’ll see.
Just because people are complex enough to fit into all five colours of magic does not mean people do not have leanings.
Categories exist not because people fit them perfectly but because people DO have leanings, preferences, many of which are shared by other likeminded people. The key is to use categories and these philosophies as a way to understand people while understanding that individuals will still not fit them completely.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
And I admit, I'm drawing blanks on what character would have made for a better Black inclusion prior to Vraska's Ixalan appearance. Its bound to be a problem when the game keeps portraying black as "the color of jerks." I mean, someone suggested Sorin, but he already demonstrated that he has his own teamwork issues... though he would still be a better fit than Lilliana.
Martin's characters (what's left of them) are one dimensional and flat. There are far better authors out there, in terms of character development, prose, plot development, non-gratuitous use of violence to drive a story, and most importantly, story completion.
That being said, your point stands. Characters are far more believable when their attributes are a spectrum. We're well past the point in fantasy now where good vs evil or christian allegory is sufficient to keep us all compelled. The difference here in MtG is that the stories are told over a long time, within the context of an evolving game, as a way to flesh out said game. It's never going to be the next Tolkien.
I think they're doing well though - the Bolas confrontation was a turning point for the characters - Jace shifted away and had his memories returned to him, regained some confidence, Gideon finally had it slapped into him that pure brawn is sometimes not enough and he's not always the biggest kid in the playground, Nissa continues her spiritual holistic awakening, Chandra most likely is very worried for her friends and feeling fragile. Whether or not this is entirely accurate, it all shows that they're either evolving, devolving or changing in some aspect. It just happens in slow motion when its tied in to an associated card game played out over years.
I think people are just getting antsy for a big payoff; it's easier to see a square peg in a round hole when you're able to read on to the end of the book and see how it resolves. Here, we don't have that option, as content is eked out to us piece by piece.
If they don't do that, and she continues being a ***** after killing Belzenlok, that's fine too as long as there's a good reason for it.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
So given that he is now above his Mindsculptor level, isn't the new reawakened Jace's power level over 9000? And if it is, what makesyou think Belzenlok would even stand a chance against him?
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
There was nothing indicating he got some sort of extra boost. He got his old memories back which includes his training with Alhammaret. Also Belzenlok is supposedly the most powerful of the bunch and it took the lot of them to take down Razaketh. Belz is also the leader of the new Cabal. Meaning he must have a great deal of mental fortitude.
Now I will admit upfront that I know nothing of Cabal lore as I had Magic off-time when Oddysey block released, but weren't they about pit fighting? If so, wouldn't physical fortitude be way more logical from him to have then mental one? You know, as far as having the most powerful Elder Dragon Planeswalker as a friend does not get you there already?
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.