But again as I said, does Bolas really have anyone else left to fear? Sure, Ugin is alive right now, but what are the chances that Yasova didn't tell him one way or another that something happened to Ugin after the beatdown, which means he'd have Ugin on tabs for a millenia+ and have countermeasures in case the spirit dragon decides to act? Liliana, the strongest of the Gatewatch, is still nothing to him, much less anyone else.
The art book says he dose know about Ugin who he didn't plan for and thought dead until the events of BtZ.
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I do wonder how planes come to an end though, and exactly what transpired on Amonkhet before Bolas. And what lead to it drying off? Pretty sad to think an entire universe can just end. Especially with its populace still alive. Makes me wonder about Theros and its Underworld. Is there a death for the dead then when that plane ends? So no matter what plane someone dies on and what the metaphysics dictate about that person's death (even in a world like Theros, or here with the Curse of Wandering) all who live and die end up recycled from dead planes? IDK.
Makes me wonder if Amonkhet dying and the Eldrazi functions are related. Makes me wonder even more if Amonkhet dying it an example of the repercussions of sealing them in the first place, effectively denying their function. Who knows.
We know that he hates being subservient to Niv, and can reasonably assume he'd find Bolas even worse.
Where are you getting this idea? You've floated it at least twice in this thread and its gone either unchallenged or unnoticed, but my understanding has been that Ral basically worships Niv and more fears disappointing him then hates being subservient. If you could point to what makes you think this it would really help.
I do wonder how planes come to an end though, and exactly what transpired on Amonkhet before Bolas. And what lead to it drying off? Pretty sad to think an entire universe can just end. Especially with its populace still alive. Makes me wonder about Theros and its Underworld. Is there a death for the dead then when that plane ends? So no matter what plane someone dies on and what the metaphysics dictate about that person's death (even in a world like Theros, or here with the Curse of Wandering) all who live and die end up recycled from dead planes? IDK.
Makes me wonder if Amonkhet dying and the Eldrazi functions are related. Makes me wonder even more if Amonkhet dying it an example of the repercussions of sealing them in the first place, effectively denying their function. Who knows.
Once again, Eldrazi fanboy disclaimer alert.
I feel like the real repercussions come after Amonkhet is completely destroyed. Assuming the Eldrazi would have naturally selected Amonkhet, what we have seen on Hour of Devastation is no different from what we saw on Battle for Zendikar. The destruction is the same, but we have never ever seen the aftermath of it. The only time the "aftermath" happened was on Innistrad, but unfortunately it lacked the destruction required prior, so we ended up with biology warping. The closest reference we ever got to a proper procedure was from the Chain Veil's screams when Liliana was facing Emrakul. It's like a double negative cancelling (UlaKozi followed by Emra) each other out, but all we got was single negatives from their stories so far, due to their relocation of planes (by meddling planeswalkers no less...)
The problem though, is Bolas has only demonstrated Ulamog-level-destruction thus far - if Ob-Nixilis could sunder a leyline for his spark, I think warping and destruction of leylines is Ulamog's domain - Kozilek exclusively (so far) warps physics (and perhaps timespace) and no planeswalker so far has demonstrated that level of destruction (even clockworking revolves around its user only), which leads me to believe Amonkhet will simply hang in that half-destroyed state and since planeswalkers can destroy/warp leylines, they can fix it as well - as such, Bolas/Ulamog-only-level destruction is a reversible process.
But that's where you have a point - if planeswalkers could both destroy and restore leylines, then it could stand to reason that the Eldrazi can do that as well - Emrakul being the one with the most implications (from said Chain Veil reference). A dying plane (for whatever reasons) has its physical forms (leylines included) shredded apart by Ulamog and left to recover naturally (I doubt Ulamog literally builds it back - I think he leaves some sort of slow medicine behind instead), has its physics and timespace "reset" by Kozilek and then Emrakul comes to bestow life because clearly nothing is going to survive UlaKozi's cleanup reboot.
Basically, each plane is like a computer (or any tech device actually), Ulamog is literally a cloth for wiping the hardware (along with all the assembly tools), Kozilek the reset disc for the Operating System software and Emrakul the apps installer.
Bolas literally performed the same procedure (Scorpion=cloth, Locust=OS, Scarab=Apps), except it was for harvesting the Eternals only, meanwhile planar-wise all his destruction after that was at best Ulamog-level. It almost makes me feel happy that the Eldrazi are still a step above in planar destruction after all that embarrassment they've been put through by planeswalkers (yes I know they were stopped and Bolas not, but Bolas actively planned for all of the factors while the Eldrazi didn't even register anyone until Gideon for a small while and were promptly booted out by the Zendikar computer by the Gatewatch, which awkwardly puts them as a virus if we used the computer analogy...)
Its possible that Amonkhet was the plane the Eldrazi were on before they were lured to Zendikar. The Zendakari trap was intended to be a beacon to draw them in, and it stands to reason that it could have caused them to drop what they were doing even if they were already on a plane, though that's speculation.
We have, however, seen totally barren planes before, as well as old planes like Equilor that had lost their vitality (Equilor seemed like it had wound down into a state where little changed). Natural planes don't simply cease to be like artificial planes do without Eldrazi intervention, but they can lose their mana and end up as barren husks, physically extant but wastelands devoid of life and mana. Perhaps Amonkhet was suffering this fate, but the way the gods reacted to Bolas it seems more likely that even if it were headed that way it was caused by a sudden catastrophe rather than a slow natural decline.
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We know that he hates being subservient to Niv, and can reasonably assume he'd find Bolas even worse.
Where are you getting this idea? You've floated it at least twice in this thread and its gone either unchallenged or unnoticed, but my understanding has been that Ral basically worships Niv and more fears disappointing him then hates being subservient. If you could point to what makes you think this it would really help.
It has been shown on the Secretist (return to Ravnica novella) and both stories Ral has appeared in. Ral worships the ideals of the Izzet but sees Niv as a nuisance that is holding him back and ignores his genious. Also he is afraid that if Niv discovers the existence of planeswalkers he will be the first specimen strapped in the dragons table to be cut open in order to find out what makes them planeswalk.
We know that he hates being subservient to Niv, and can reasonably assume he'd find Bolas even worse.
Where are you getting this idea? You've floated it at least twice in this thread and its gone either unchallenged or unnoticed, but my understanding has been that Ral basically worships Niv and more fears disappointing him then hates being subservient. If you could point to what makes you think this it would really help.
It has been shown on the Secretist (return to Ravnica novella) and both stories Ral has appeared in. Ral worships the ideals of the Izzet but sees Niv as a nuisance that is holding him back and ignores his genious. Also he is afraid that if Niv discovers the existence of planeswalkers he will be the first specimen strapped in the dragons table to be cut open in order to find out what makes them planeswalk.
I've read those and they gave me the exact opposite understanding of Ral's opinion of Niv. The main reason he gives for not outing walkers is the damage it would do to Niv's ego, which implies he is trying to protect Niv first and then is concerned that he 'might' end up on a table.
So any quotes that specifically call this out would be much appreciated, because until Oathboundone mentioned it I had never considered Ral to be upset serving dragons. And obviously they are not the only one who views Ral's relationship this way; with you jumping in here.
We know that he hates being subservient to Niv, and can reasonably assume he'd find Bolas even worse.
Where are you getting this idea? You've floated it at least twice in this thread and its gone either unchallenged or unnoticed, but my understanding has been that Ral basically worships Niv and more fears disappointing him then hates being subservient. If you could point to what makes you think this it would really help.
It has been shown on the Secretist (return to Ravnica novella) and both stories Ral has appeared in. Ral worships the ideals of the Izzet but sees Niv as a nuisance that is holding him back and ignores his genious. Also he is afraid that if Niv discovers the existence of planeswalkers he will be the first specimen strapped in the dragons table to be cut open in order to find out what makes them planeswalk.
I've read those and they gave me the exact opposite understanding of Ral's opinion of Niv. The main reason he gives for not outing walkers is the damage it would do to Niv's ego, which implies he is trying to protect Niv first and then is concerned that he 'might' end up on a table.
So any quotes that specifically call this out would be much appreciated, because until Oathboundone mentioned it I had never considered Ral to be upset serving dragons. And obviously they are not the only one who views Ral's relationship this way; with you jumping in here.
I haven't read The Secretist, so my impressions of Ral are entirely from his wiki page, anything I've read about him from other forum commenters, and the two story articles about him.
The wiki page says:
Indeed, Ral has never looked to the ancient dragon as a role model or mentor, but as a nuisance at best and a likely adversary at worst.
So that's the lens through which I've read Ral's character through.
With that in mind, Ral's concern with Niv Mizzet discovering planeswalkers would have nothing to do with not wanting the dragon's ego damaged, and everything to do with what that dragon would do to him(and any other planeswalker Niv could get his hands on, but mostly him) if that happened.
From Project Lightning Bug:
Besides, he knew the range of horrid things Niv-Mizzet would do in possession of that truth. Would he eagerly dissect all the Planeswalkers he could find in the spirit of curiosity, or simply eat them all to assert dominance and quell his existential jealousy? Would he track the comings and goings of every Planeswalker, and ruin all the work Ral had done to scrape his way through the ranks and achieve a position of respect among the Izzet?
But you don't know Niv-Mizzet. It would crack him. It would turn him inside-out. And then he would turn us inside-out...
Reading from the perspective given by the wiki, Ral didn't give a damn about Niv, he was worried about himself.
When it comes to not wanting to disappoint the Firemind, it's because Niv tends to eat those who disappoint him.
Ral was concerned about Niv's ego in the sense that it would drive him crazy to know that there are some out there who know things he doesn't. Which is only bad for them. If Ral respected Niv then he wouldn't have killed Melek to run the Maze. He's mad that Niv doesn't recognize his genius.
This is actually... a very very cool twist, if true. Ugin plotting against Bolas, carefully letting Jace wipe his own mind, so Bolas wouldn't learn their plans. That's actually pretty amazing. Only problem is that Ugin didn't seem particularly thrilled with working with Jace at the end of BZF... unless that was just an act so Bolas would think they wouldn't work together... wow we're getting into advanced psychology tricks here.
One of the most effective forms, narratively, for hiding something is simply to... excise it. (Murder of Roger Ackroyd is a self-demonstrating masterpiece of this.) Another way to do so, in response to your point, is to simply show the rewritten portions. IOW, show memories as they are remembered and not as they happened. Essentially, this makes Jace an incredibly unreliable narrator.
Another option is that Ugin wiped Jace's mind. If so, it is the death knell for Jace and Ugin working together if Jace ever remembers Vryn and the fact that Alhammeret used him in the same MO.
Personally I don't think Ral lied to Jace in regards to Vraska's travels. It would be a weird lie and I don't think there is a satisfactory answer to "Why would Ral say that rather than just making up something more mundane and believable?"
Personally, I don't think Ral lied, either. With the revelation that Ral is a minion of Bolas, though, I doubt that this was accidental and it carries new hints.
A partial answer to your question, though, is that Jace is intensely curious and wants to know everything. Telling someone something that is rather unbelievable but not verifiable is rather epic trolling for someone so curious. It's like an itch that they can't scratch. Which may be another level to the subconscious choice that Jace takes to go to Ixalan.
Another part of 'lie or disinformation' along the 'hypnosis' route is that Ral Zarek established a connection between 'a Plane' and 'nowhere' in Jace's mind. This may have been exploited by Bolas. Perhaps the 'mindwave' he used on Jace forces a jump to 'nowhere' (and thus fatal)? More likely is that Bolas knew that the normal/probable reaction to that attack is 'run and hide', and 'nowhere' is a pretty good approximation of the best place to do so.
Edit: What I find more likely is that Ixalan has special metaphysical properties as a plane, like how Shandalar moves through the multiverse on its own. Maybe it's some sort of black hole that attracts metaphysical objects in the vicinity but doesn't let them go, so planeswalkers would be trapped on the world. (Just as an example, there could be other reasons why Ixalan appears as a "void" on Ral's monitoring devices.)
This I feel is more elegant, yes. My personal theory in this vein is that Ixalan is 'magical ground (in the electric circuit sense)' in the Multiverse. Alternately, it is the plane that is the 'reference mode' and as such is omitted from any sensors. (This would be odd, though, given that reference modes are generally selected by the sensing device.)
Frankly, though, I don't think that Ixalan is a trap. If it is, how does Vraska go there with the intent of leaving again? How does Ajani (assuming he goes there to recruit someone) get out again? Seems all... a bit odd.
Sir, I tip my proverbial hat to you. This was an amazing read.
This is high praise indeed. Thank you.
I am definitely with you on the Liliana's issue. She basically reminded me of Lando Calrissian in Empire Strikes Back. And we know what happened with Lando afterwards.
Not sure I can completely agree with this. Liliana is certainly more selfish than Lando. Lando's character is essentially Lovable Rogue. Liliana's is... not. Now, I think their arcs are similar, but Liliana has a lot longer to go before she can get to where Lando ended up. If you know OotS at all, Liliana is far closer to 'pre-development' Belkar (though much more rational than the Halfling) than Lando right now.
And she has demonstrated clearly at the end of Agents of Artifice that trading the demons for another master is a no-go for her. She knows that she must take down Belzenlok, and that she does not want to be Bolas's slave.
Very true, and the key to her personality. She's all about trying to dig her way out of the pit she dug for herself, and at some point has to figure out that digging may not be the best direction to go.
Makes me wonder if Amonkhet dying and the Eldrazi functions are related. Makes me wonder even more if Amonkhet dying it an example of the repercussions of sealing them in the first place, effectively denying their function. Who knows.
The original sealing by Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri? Quite possibly. The only issue I have with the 'Eldrazi as Planar Cleanup Crew' theory is that it doesn't explain why the Eldrazi seem naturally inclined towards high-mana worlds. You would think that if they were cleanup that they would be inclined towards low-mana worlds, no? Unless Planes are like bubbles and the mana keeps getting higher and higher until... pop? That's not how Amonkhet felt, though...
Finally, multiquoting doesn't seem to go between pages for me, so in reply to someone asking where NB would wear the Chain Veil... is that necessary for using its power? I don't recall her wearing it in Eldritch Moon. Side note related to this is that I was very interested in the various reactions by the Veil and The Raven Man WRT the Liliana-Bolas conversation. The Veil was egging her on, 'No really, we can kill him!' And The Raven Man was all, 'Are you NUTS?' It felt very much like a Shoulder Angel and Shoulder Demon moment, but with color identities rather than Christian iconography. The Veil is quite Red (in this context) while The Raven Man is quite Blue.
I think the biggest argument against Eldrazi Waste Management is that it is too obvious. It's an easy explanation for something that's supposed to be beyond human comprehension in the eldritch sense. It's a logical explanation of their purpose that we can look at and think that it makes sense for the multiverse, and nothing about that describes eldritch abominations.
Their purpose shouldn't make total sense. Maybe eating planes is how new planes are made, but they tend to eat vibrant planes or select planes according to some criteria that we don't understand, so why certain planes get nommed remains a mystery that doesn't really make sense. Maybe eating planes isn't their purpose, merely a means by which they sustain themselves, like Galactus. Maybe they eat planes that would develop modern technology, or eat planes that would alter the way magic works. Maybe they aren't actually eating planes, but the process we see is a way of moving planes across the Blind Eternities, like compressing them into a zip file to be unpacked somewhere else, and we just haven't seen a world unpacked before and wouldn't understand why they are moving the planes. Planar recycling? Too neat and clean, too logical, for these sort of things.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The original sealing by Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri? Quite possibly. The only issue I have with the 'Eldrazi as Planar Cleanup Crew' theory is that it doesn't explain why the Eldrazi seem naturally inclined towards high-mana worlds.
Evidently eldrazi are not drawn to mana-rich planes. Zendikar was rich in mana from the start but the eldrazi only went there after the beacon was set up.
You would think that if they were cleanup that they would be inclined towards low-mana worlds, no?
The thing is -if the cleanup theory is true- we don't know what the Eldrazi take as a sign for a dying world. Imagine a shark. Sharks go after dying animals, but the smell they look out for is blood, which technically is a sign of health for an animal. That is, until it leaves the body. It's perfectly thinkable that dying worlds leak their mana to the surrounding blind eternities (which also explains why the planes themselves are low on mana, the mana leaks out.) Therefore, Eldrazi might be drawn towards large sources of mana that flow through the eternities in non-leyline patterns, basically the sign of a dying, or bleeding world.
If this is true (which is a big if, as I'm not sure if the Eldrazi "biology" has been fleshed out this far) then the beacon of Zendikar could be like a blood-letting valve, attracting the eldrazi by leaking out mana into the eternities in the typical "this world's boundaries have been damaged" pattern.
What we ALSO don't know if this is the only sign Eldrazi look out for. It could also be that they have a priority system and 'leaked mana' is very high up on their list while 'old stagnant planes' could be a very low priority one. Heck, maybe uncontrolled leaked mana (aka not in form of ley-lines) is actually dangerous to nearby planes, so when the eldrazi sense that (Zendikar, Innistrad) they go into red alert mode.
I think people took the Eldrazi being drawn to concentrations of life to mean they would also be drawn to mana-rich planes. Which it may in fact be. We dont know what the Eldrazi were doing when they were drawn to Zendikar.
If the Eldrazi were on Amonkhet, putting life out of its misery first may be in Ulamog's best interesting on a plane destined for doom and consumption though. I do agree we can't really predict anything about them for sure though as Eldritch Horrors.
I think the biggest argument against Eldrazi Waste Management is that it is too obvious. It's an easy explanation for something that's supposed to be beyond human comprehension in the eldritch sense. It's a logical explanation of their purpose that we can look at and think that it makes sense for the multiverse, and nothing about that describes eldritch abominations.
Their purpose shouldn't make total sense. Maybe eating planes is how new planes are made, but they tend to eat vibrant planes or select planes according to some criteria that we don't understand, so why certain planes get nommed remains a mystery that doesn't really make sense. Maybe eating planes isn't their purpose, merely a means by which they sustain themselves, like Galactus. Maybe they eat planes that would develop modern technology, or eat planes that would alter the way magic works. Maybe they aren't actually eating planes, but the process we see is a way of moving planes across the Blind Eternities, like compressing them into a zip file to be unpacked somewhere else, and we just haven't seen a world unpacked before and wouldn't understand why they are moving the planes. Planar recycling? Too neat and clean, too logical, for these sort of things.
I don't see it (waste management theory) as understanding - I see it as simplifying. Emrakul had to simplify her entire presence down to a chess game so that Jace (who I think it's safe to say at least above average in intellect) to explain vaguely how she was like and that was merely the tip of the iceberg. Even if we know why (which we actually don't), we don't know how they actually do it, let alone replicate it. If Ulamog could (or would) converse, he might have made an entire mockery of how inefficient/incomplete the destruction Bolas did on Amonkhet, for all we know.
I feel like there's always a certain problem with logical speculating and "supposed to be beyond comprehension", because it means if we can think of it and it can be built back logically (like the plausible scenarios you listed), then it cannot be as such since it's supposedly beyond comprehension. Then again, on the other end, if there's no logical build-up or speculation, it also feels like a cop-out of "too lazy to write information" instead and can easily feel like bad writing/characterization (or for the Eldrazi, purpose of existence in the story) entirely. Just look at Emrakul, either we're thinking of all the "logical conclusions" from her sealing, or we're just dismissing it as incomprehensible and bad "character" writing to some degree.
We have not reached the point that we can exhaust every logical possibility because the Eldrazi debunked them themselves and gave up on speculation and truly wholeheartedly accepted the "beyond comprehension" part. UlaKozi losing made matters worse at the moment, although my current wildest theory implies that their "bodies" in the aether aren't actually whole either and they technically "exist" in nonexistence and reach into existence instead, meaning what was on Zendikar was a finger, what was in the blind eternities that the Gatewatch pulled in was merely the hand at best. Although admittedly why I like this theory a lot is I just like Ugin to be utterly dwarfed in his understanding/theories to magnify how "good/incomprehensible" the Eldrazi really are (there's a lot of impact when a Elder Dragon Planeswalker gets something completely wrong).
Ultimately the problem with the Eldrazi is that we know planeswalkers have manipulated them, so we're missing crucial logical information we cannot write off as "incomprehensible" since well, the planeswalkers meddled with said factors. On that technicality, one could say "complete incomprehension" is already impossible with them and I personally think my current wildest theory (existing in nonexistence) is the closest thing I can put to that, although at this point even I think it's more of a paradox/nonsense than incomprehension.
If the Eldrazi were on Amonkhet, putting life out of its misery first may be in Ulamog's best interesting on a plane destined for doom and consumption though. I do agree we can't really predict anything about them for sure though as Eldritch Horrors.
I'm pretty sure Ulamog doesn't register life at all - he was just cleaning up the plane when he got summoned to Zendikar. Some part of me suspects the natural "curses" the plane bears were "mutated" results of the aftermath of Ulamog leaving from a job halfway done (or actually 90% considering how it was when Bolas first arrived). Bolas (then with some oldwalkers power remaining) perhaps managed to rewrite those mutations to his own benefit hence they're still lasting even though Ulamog himself is not around (at least not in "existence"), or maybe Ulamog's lasting effects on planes still linger even if Ulamog himself vanishes (so if they didn't actively rewrite the leylines, Zendikar technically would have still turned to dust without Ulamog around).
Of course, all this is dependent on whether Ulamog was even there in the first place and even if he was, still too many unknown factors.
I think the biggest argument against Eldrazi Waste Management is that it is too obvious. It's an easy explanation for something that's supposed to be beyond human comprehension in the eldritch sense. It's a logical explanation of their purpose that we can look at and think that it makes sense for the multiverse, and nothing about that describes eldritch abominations.
Their purpose shouldn't make total sense. Maybe eating planes is how new planes are made, but they tend to eat vibrant planes or select planes according to some criteria that we don't understand, so why certain planes get nommed remains a mystery that doesn't really make sense. Maybe eating planes isn't their purpose, merely a means by which they sustain themselves, like Galactus. Maybe they eat planes that would develop modern technology, or eat planes that would alter the way magic works. Maybe they aren't actually eating planes, but the process we see is a way of moving planes across the Blind Eternities, like compressing them into a zip file to be unpacked somewhere else, and we just haven't seen a world unpacked before and wouldn't understand why they are moving the planes. Planar recycling? Too neat and clean, too logical, for these sort of things.
I don't see it (waste management theory) as understanding - I see it as simplifying. Emrakul had to simplify her entire presence down to a chess game so that Jace (who I think it's safe to say at least above average in intellect) to explain vaguely how she was like and that was merely the tip of the iceberg. Even if we know why (which we actually don't), we don't know how they actually do it, let alone replicate it. If Ulamog could (or would) converse, he might have made an entire mockery of how inefficient/incomplete the destruction Bolas did on Amonkhet, for all we know.
I feel like there's always a certain problem with logical speculating and "supposed to be beyond comprehension", because it means if we can think of it and it can be built back logically (like the plausible scenarios you listed), then it cannot be as such since it's supposedly beyond comprehension. Then again, on the other end, if there's no logical build-up or speculation, it also feels like a cop-out of "too lazy to write information" instead and can easily feel like bad writing/characterization (or for the Eldrazi, purpose of existence in the story) entirely. Just look at Emrakul, either we're thinking of all the "logical conclusions" from her sealing, or we're just dismissing it as incomprehensible and bad "character" writing to some degree.
We have not reached the point that we can exhaust every logical possibility because the Eldrazi debunked them themselves and gave up on speculation and truly wholeheartedly accepted the "beyond comprehension" part. UlaKozi losing made matters worse at the moment, although my current wildest theory implies that their "bodies" in the aether aren't actually whole either and they technically "exist" in nonexistence and reach into existence instead, meaning what was on Zendikar was a finger, what was in the blind eternities that the Gatewatch pulled in was merely the hand at best. Although admittedly why I like this theory a lot is I just like Ugin to be utterly dwarfed in his understanding/theories to magnify how "good/incomprehensible" the Eldrazi really are (there's a lot of impact when a Elder Dragon Planeswalker gets something completely wrong).
Ultimately the problem with the Eldrazi is that we know planeswalkers have manipulated them, so we're missing crucial logical information we cannot write off as "incomprehensible" since well, the planeswalkers meddled with said factors. On that technicality, one could say "complete incomprehension" is already impossible with them and I personally think my current wildest theory (existing in nonexistence) is the closest thing I can put to that, although at this point even I think it's more of a paradox/nonsense than incomprehension.
If the Eldrazi were on Amonkhet, putting life out of its misery first may be in Ulamog's best interesting on a plane destined for doom and consumption though. I do agree we can't really predict anything about them for sure though as Eldritch Horrors.
I'm pretty sure Ulamog doesn't register life at all - he was just cleaning up the plane when he got summoned to Zendikar. Some part of me suspects the natural "curses" the plane bears were "mutated" results of the aftermath of Ulamog leaving from a job halfway done (or actually 90% considering how it was when Bolas first arrived). Bolas (then with some oldwalkers power remaining) perhaps managed to rewrite those mutations to his own benefit hence they're still lasting even though Ulamog himself is not around (at least not in "existence"), or maybe Ulamog's lasting effects on planes still linger even if Ulamog himself vanishes (so if they didn't actively rewrite the leylines, Zendikar technically would have still turned to dust without Ulamog around).
Of course, all this is dependent on whether Ulamog was even there in the first place and even if he was, still too many unknown factors.
You see, this is a better explanation. If the waste management metaphor is just simplifying what they are doing, then it isn't really a waste management situation, its something more and we are only seeing part of it. Its more than they are just recycling planes, there's something to it beyond that, like their choice of plane not making logical sense, or it serving a larger purpose.
As for being manipulated, that doesn't mean the walkers comprehend them. Humans can be manipulated by animals, but the animals don't comprehend our motivations. I rattlesnake wants you to go away, it can easily make you leave, but it doesn't understand your reason for being there, your motivations, or really much of anything besides that you will probably go away if it rattles.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
theory implies that their "bodies" in the aether aren't actually whole either and they technically "exist" in nonexistence and reach into existence instead, meaning what was on Zendikar was a finger, what was in the blind eternities that the Gatewatch pulled in was merely the hand at best. Although admittedly why I like this theory a lot is I just like Ugin to be utterly dwarfed in his understanding/theories to magnify how "good/incomprehensible" the Eldrazi really are (there's a lot of impact when a Elder Dragon Planeswalker gets something completely wrong).
Didn't Ugin state that the "Titans" weren't the real forms of the Eldrazi, and if that is true..Ugin's comparison isn't quite right. If the Titans are "Appendages" that the Eldrazi use to consume a plane from within, then really the most apt comparison for the Edrazi are spiders. They insert Their Fangs (Titans)into the plane and dissolve the plane and suck the mana through. This actually helps the situation a great deal, The Original Three Grabbed the Eldrazi by the teeth and bound them to Zendikar, when The Gatewatch did the world spell..they yanked the "heads" in and melted face off.
I will say I dislike the idea that Amonkhet was eldrazied. Those things have ruined enough planes.
You know, as much as I suspect I have sorely missed out where in the story it was mentioned that Amonkhet was already dying anyway before Bolas arrived, that aside, when the plane told Nissa that "he took that away from me".... now I'm beginning to suspect that the "he" in the question is not Bolas; it's someone else that made the plane dying in the first place. I mean, why would Bolas be mentioned taking something out of a plane that already is on its death throes? Sure, he probably would do it, but slowly I am suspecting that someone else did that first. The Eldrazi theory is a nice touch, for one, but I'm inclined to disagree, though I don't have any better alternative at this point.
And frankly, pointing out that the plane was dying before Bolas arrived felt like a bad cop-out to me, but I'll shut up about it.
My personal head canon is Ob Nixilis. He has a long history of conquests after all, and he could easily turn Amonkhet upside down. Then, after the disaster, eight gods just retreated to Oashra and created the Hekma...
Or it could have just naturally been dying. During the flashback story the gods didn't seem to recognize Bolas and hr acted like he had never been there when he was researching the culture of the city. Bolas used magic to bind the soul of the plane so he was more powerful there as Nissa noted in the last story.
You know, as much as I suspect I have sorely missed out where in the story it was mentioned that Amonkhet was already dying anyway before Bolas arrived, that aside, when the plane told Nissa that "he took that away from me".... now I'm beginning to suspect that the "he" in the question is not Bolas; it's someone else that made the plane dying in the first place. I mean, why would Bolas be mentioned taking something out of a plane that already is on its death throes? Sure, he probably would do it, but slowly I am suspecting that someone else did that first. The Eldrazi theory is a nice touch, for one, but I'm inclined to disagree, though I don't have any better alternative at this point.
And frankly, pointing out that the plane was dying before Bolas arrived felt like a bad cop-out to me, but I'll shut up about it.
Yeah, let's quote what the plane said to Nissa
Her consciousness is somewhere hundreds of feet underground. She can sense the cavern she is in was made long ago by careful hands. The stale air is dense, dark, still against cloying clay and packed sand. The only movement is the writhing of scarabs.
Their dead were sent here for me to keep them safe from rot . . .
The halls are empty. Not even the beetles know where their food is.
She has no physical form in this place. Her body is high above on the surface, sweating and shaking with the fever of a malnourished world.
This once was my most treasured place.
It is the echo of a scream.
She understands now that these were catacombs. It was once safe and good.
I protected the vessels to keep their souls alive and he took. . . them . . .
The elf's chest tightens with anxiety. Her spirit, here, can feel it up above.
He took them—!
The cavern is completely empty.
Please, he took them all, corrupted them all, end my guilt, I could not protect them—!
I originally assumed "he" was Bolas, and the corruption was the Gods.
But now that we've wrapped things up, I don't understand how this cavern plays into what eventually happened.
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Heads up that once you hit Archmage Overlord, you can change the future:
It was a standard afterlife myth: The land was protecting the dead until the prophesied end-times. Bolas came and re-purposed this to mean "When I get back. Also I need corpses so...Mine Now."
What it meant was that the dead were stored away in a manner that, from what that seems to say, protects them from the curse of wandering. But once Bolas came he started taking the largest amount of dying people away from the planes protection.
He also woke up the current dead and made them servants, so that could easily be the whole "he took them"
Second, he opened the tombs under the city and led the enchanted bodies of the dead out of their mausoleums and into the light. There were so many orphaned infants now, and the children would need caretakers.
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The art book says he dose know about Ugin who he didn't plan for and thought dead until the events of BtZ.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Makes me wonder if Amonkhet dying and the Eldrazi functions are related. Makes me wonder even more if Amonkhet dying it an example of the repercussions of sealing them in the first place, effectively denying their function. Who knows.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Once again, Eldrazi fanboy disclaimer alert.
I feel like the real repercussions come after Amonkhet is completely destroyed. Assuming the Eldrazi would have naturally selected Amonkhet, what we have seen on Hour of Devastation is no different from what we saw on Battle for Zendikar. The destruction is the same, but we have never ever seen the aftermath of it. The only time the "aftermath" happened was on Innistrad, but unfortunately it lacked the destruction required prior, so we ended up with biology warping. The closest reference we ever got to a proper procedure was from the Chain Veil's screams when Liliana was facing Emrakul. It's like a double negative cancelling (UlaKozi followed by Emra) each other out, but all we got was single negatives from their stories so far, due to their relocation of planes (by meddling planeswalkers no less...)
The problem though, is Bolas has only demonstrated Ulamog-level-destruction thus far - if Ob-Nixilis could sunder a leyline for his spark, I think warping and destruction of leylines is Ulamog's domain - Kozilek exclusively (so far) warps physics (and perhaps timespace) and no planeswalker so far has demonstrated that level of destruction (even clockworking revolves around its user only), which leads me to believe Amonkhet will simply hang in that half-destroyed state and since planeswalkers can destroy/warp leylines, they can fix it as well - as such, Bolas/Ulamog-only-level destruction is a reversible process.
But that's where you have a point - if planeswalkers could both destroy and restore leylines, then it could stand to reason that the Eldrazi can do that as well - Emrakul being the one with the most implications (from said Chain Veil reference). A dying plane (for whatever reasons) has its physical forms (leylines included) shredded apart by Ulamog and left to recover naturally (I doubt Ulamog literally builds it back - I think he leaves some sort of slow medicine behind instead), has its physics and timespace "reset" by Kozilek and then Emrakul comes to bestow life because clearly nothing is going to survive UlaKozi's cleanup reboot.
Basically, each plane is like a computer (or any tech device actually), Ulamog is literally a cloth for wiping the hardware (along with all the assembly tools), Kozilek the reset disc for the Operating System software and Emrakul the apps installer.
Bolas literally performed the same procedure (Scorpion=cloth, Locust=OS, Scarab=Apps), except it was for harvesting the Eternals only, meanwhile planar-wise all his destruction after that was at best Ulamog-level. It almost makes me feel happy that the Eldrazi are still a step above in planar destruction after all that embarrassment they've been put through by planeswalkers (yes I know they were stopped and Bolas not, but Bolas actively planned for all of the factors while the Eldrazi didn't even register anyone until Gideon for a small while and were promptly booted out by the Zendikar computer by the Gatewatch, which awkwardly puts them as a virus if we used the computer analogy...)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
We have, however, seen totally barren planes before, as well as old planes like Equilor that had lost their vitality (Equilor seemed like it had wound down into a state where little changed). Natural planes don't simply cease to be like artificial planes do without Eldrazi intervention, but they can lose their mana and end up as barren husks, physically extant but wastelands devoid of life and mana. Perhaps Amonkhet was suffering this fate, but the way the gods reacted to Bolas it seems more likely that even if it were headed that way it was caused by a sudden catastrophe rather than a slow natural decline.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It has been shown on the Secretist (return to Ravnica novella) and both stories Ral has appeared in. Ral worships the ideals of the Izzet but sees Niv as a nuisance that is holding him back and ignores his genious. Also he is afraid that if Niv discovers the existence of planeswalkers he will be the first specimen strapped in the dragons table to be cut open in order to find out what makes them planeswalk.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
So any quotes that specifically call this out would be much appreciated, because until Oathboundone mentioned it I had never considered Ral to be upset serving dragons. And obviously they are not the only one who views Ral's relationship this way; with you jumping in here.
I haven't read The Secretist, so my impressions of Ral are entirely from his wiki page, anything I've read about him from other forum commenters, and the two story articles about him.
The wiki page says:
So that's the lens through which I've read Ral's character through.
With that in mind, Ral's concern with Niv Mizzet discovering planeswalkers would have nothing to do with not wanting the dragon's ego damaged, and everything to do with what that dragon would do to him(and any other planeswalker Niv could get his hands on, but mostly him) if that happened.
From Project Lightning Bug:
Reading from the perspective given by the wiki, Ral didn't give a damn about Niv, he was worried about himself.
When it comes to not wanting to disappoint the Firemind, it's because Niv tends to eat those who disappoint him.
One of the most effective forms, narratively, for hiding something is simply to... excise it. (Murder of Roger Ackroyd is a self-demonstrating masterpiece of this.) Another way to do so, in response to your point, is to simply show the rewritten portions. IOW, show memories as they are remembered and not as they happened. Essentially, this makes Jace an incredibly unreliable narrator.
Another option is that Ugin wiped Jace's mind. If so, it is the death knell for Jace and Ugin working together if Jace ever remembers Vryn and the fact that Alhammeret used him in the same MO.
Personally, I don't think Ral lied, either. With the revelation that Ral is a minion of Bolas, though, I doubt that this was accidental and it carries new hints.
A partial answer to your question, though, is that Jace is intensely curious and wants to know everything. Telling someone something that is rather unbelievable but not verifiable is rather epic trolling for someone so curious. It's like an itch that they can't scratch. Which may be another level to the subconscious choice that Jace takes to go to Ixalan.
Another part of 'lie or disinformation' along the 'hypnosis' route is that Ral Zarek established a connection between 'a Plane' and 'nowhere' in Jace's mind. This may have been exploited by Bolas. Perhaps the 'mindwave' he used on Jace forces a jump to 'nowhere' (and thus fatal)? More likely is that Bolas knew that the normal/probable reaction to that attack is 'run and hide', and 'nowhere' is a pretty good approximation of the best place to do so.
This I feel is more elegant, yes. My personal theory in this vein is that Ixalan is 'magical ground (in the electric circuit sense)' in the Multiverse. Alternately, it is the plane that is the 'reference mode' and as such is omitted from any sensors. (This would be odd, though, given that reference modes are generally selected by the sensing device.)
Frankly, though, I don't think that Ixalan is a trap. If it is, how does Vraska go there with the intent of leaving again? How does Ajani (assuming he goes there to recruit someone) get out again? Seems all... a bit odd.
This is high praise indeed. Thank you.
Not sure I can completely agree with this. Liliana is certainly more selfish than Lando. Lando's character is essentially Lovable Rogue. Liliana's is... not. Now, I think their arcs are similar, but Liliana has a lot longer to go before she can get to where Lando ended up. If you know OotS at all, Liliana is far closer to 'pre-development' Belkar (though much more rational than the Halfling) than Lando right now.
Very true, and the key to her personality. She's all about trying to dig her way out of the pit she dug for herself, and at some point has to figure out that digging may not be the best direction to go.
The original sealing by Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri? Quite possibly. The only issue I have with the 'Eldrazi as Planar Cleanup Crew' theory is that it doesn't explain why the Eldrazi seem naturally inclined towards high-mana worlds. You would think that if they were cleanup that they would be inclined towards low-mana worlds, no? Unless Planes are like bubbles and the mana keeps getting higher and higher until... pop? That's not how Amonkhet felt, though...
Finally, multiquoting doesn't seem to go between pages for me, so in reply to someone asking where NB would wear the Chain Veil... is that necessary for using its power? I don't recall her wearing it in Eldritch Moon. Side note related to this is that I was very interested in the various reactions by the Veil and The Raven Man WRT the Liliana-Bolas conversation. The Veil was egging her on, 'No really, we can kill him!' And The Raven Man was all, 'Are you NUTS?' It felt very much like a Shoulder Angel and Shoulder Demon moment, but with color identities rather than Christian iconography. The Veil is quite Red (in this context) while The Raven Man is quite Blue.
Their purpose shouldn't make total sense. Maybe eating planes is how new planes are made, but they tend to eat vibrant planes or select planes according to some criteria that we don't understand, so why certain planes get nommed remains a mystery that doesn't really make sense. Maybe eating planes isn't their purpose, merely a means by which they sustain themselves, like Galactus. Maybe they eat planes that would develop modern technology, or eat planes that would alter the way magic works. Maybe they aren't actually eating planes, but the process we see is a way of moving planes across the Blind Eternities, like compressing them into a zip file to be unpacked somewhere else, and we just haven't seen a world unpacked before and wouldn't understand why they are moving the planes. Planar recycling? Too neat and clean, too logical, for these sort of things.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Evidently eldrazi are not drawn to mana-rich planes. Zendikar was rich in mana from the start but the eldrazi only went there after the beacon was set up.
The thing is -if the cleanup theory is true- we don't know what the Eldrazi take as a sign for a dying world. Imagine a shark. Sharks go after dying animals, but the smell they look out for is blood, which technically is a sign of health for an animal. That is, until it leaves the body. It's perfectly thinkable that dying worlds leak their mana to the surrounding blind eternities (which also explains why the planes themselves are low on mana, the mana leaks out.) Therefore, Eldrazi might be drawn towards large sources of mana that flow through the eternities in non-leyline patterns, basically the sign of a dying, or bleeding world.
If this is true (which is a big if, as I'm not sure if the Eldrazi "biology" has been fleshed out this far) then the beacon of Zendikar could be like a blood-letting valve, attracting the eldrazi by leaking out mana into the eternities in the typical "this world's boundaries have been damaged" pattern.
What we ALSO don't know if this is the only sign Eldrazi look out for. It could also be that they have a priority system and 'leaked mana' is very high up on their list while 'old stagnant planes' could be a very low priority one. Heck, maybe uncontrolled leaked mana (aka not in form of ley-lines) is actually dangerous to nearby planes, so when the eldrazi sense that (Zendikar, Innistrad) they go into red alert mode.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I don't see it (waste management theory) as understanding - I see it as simplifying. Emrakul had to simplify her entire presence down to a chess game so that Jace (who I think it's safe to say at least above average in intellect) to explain vaguely how she was like and that was merely the tip of the iceberg. Even if we know why (which we actually don't), we don't know how they actually do it, let alone replicate it. If Ulamog could (or would) converse, he might have made an entire mockery of how inefficient/incomplete the destruction Bolas did on Amonkhet, for all we know.
I feel like there's always a certain problem with logical speculating and "supposed to be beyond comprehension", because it means if we can think of it and it can be built back logically (like the plausible scenarios you listed), then it cannot be as such since it's supposedly beyond comprehension. Then again, on the other end, if there's no logical build-up or speculation, it also feels like a cop-out of "too lazy to write information" instead and can easily feel like bad writing/characterization (or for the Eldrazi, purpose of existence in the story) entirely. Just look at Emrakul, either we're thinking of all the "logical conclusions" from her sealing, or we're just dismissing it as incomprehensible and bad "character" writing to some degree.
We have not reached the point that we can exhaust every logical possibility because the Eldrazi debunked them themselves and gave up on speculation and truly wholeheartedly accepted the "beyond comprehension" part. UlaKozi losing made matters worse at the moment, although my current wildest theory implies that their "bodies" in the aether aren't actually whole either and they technically "exist" in nonexistence and reach into existence instead, meaning what was on Zendikar was a finger, what was in the blind eternities that the Gatewatch pulled in was merely the hand at best. Although admittedly why I like this theory a lot is I just like Ugin to be utterly dwarfed in his understanding/theories to magnify how "good/incomprehensible" the Eldrazi really are (there's a lot of impact when a Elder Dragon Planeswalker gets something completely wrong).
Ultimately the problem with the Eldrazi is that we know planeswalkers have manipulated them, so we're missing crucial logical information we cannot write off as "incomprehensible" since well, the planeswalkers meddled with said factors. On that technicality, one could say "complete incomprehension" is already impossible with them and I personally think my current wildest theory (existing in nonexistence) is the closest thing I can put to that, although at this point even I think it's more of a paradox/nonsense than incomprehension.
I'm pretty sure Ulamog doesn't register life at all - he was just cleaning up the plane when he got summoned to Zendikar. Some part of me suspects the natural "curses" the plane bears were "mutated" results of the aftermath of Ulamog leaving from a job halfway done (or actually 90% considering how it was when Bolas first arrived). Bolas (then with some oldwalkers power remaining) perhaps managed to rewrite those mutations to his own benefit hence they're still lasting even though Ulamog himself is not around (at least not in "existence"), or maybe Ulamog's lasting effects on planes still linger even if Ulamog himself vanishes (so if they didn't actively rewrite the leylines, Zendikar technically would have still turned to dust without Ulamog around).
Of course, all this is dependent on whether Ulamog was even there in the first place and even if he was, still too many unknown factors.
You see, this is a better explanation. If the waste management metaphor is just simplifying what they are doing, then it isn't really a waste management situation, its something more and we are only seeing part of it. Its more than they are just recycling planes, there's something to it beyond that, like their choice of plane not making logical sense, or it serving a larger purpose.
As for being manipulated, that doesn't mean the walkers comprehend them. Humans can be manipulated by animals, but the animals don't comprehend our motivations. I rattlesnake wants you to go away, it can easily make you leave, but it doesn't understand your reason for being there, your motivations, or really much of anything besides that you will probably go away if it rattles.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Didn't Ugin state that the "Titans" weren't the real forms of the Eldrazi, and if that is true..Ugin's comparison isn't quite right. If the Titans are "Appendages" that the Eldrazi use to consume a plane from within, then really the most apt comparison for the Edrazi are spiders. They insert Their Fangs (Titans)into the plane and dissolve the plane and suck the mana through. This actually helps the situation a great deal, The Original Three Grabbed the Eldrazi by the teeth and bound them to Zendikar, when The Gatewatch did the world spell..they yanked the "heads" in and melted face off.
I will say I dislike the idea that Amonkhet was eldrazied. Those things have ruined enough planes.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
And frankly, pointing out that the plane was dying before Bolas arrived felt like a bad cop-out to me, but I'll shut up about it.
Yeah, let's quote what the plane said to Nissa
I originally assumed "he" was Bolas, and the corruption was the Gods.
But now that we've wrapped things up, I don't understand how this cavern plays into what eventually happened.