Well yeah. RW is the vigilante color pair. Although Batman is the least R vigilante out there. Boros can fall anywhere between lawful good and chaotic good depending on how much Red they exhibit.
RW in my mind is more like V from V for Vendeta, than the police brutes Boros are depicted usually. The romantism of vigilante is clearly cut in the Legion.
If i had to indentify them as they are really depicted, i would say lawful neutral.
Well yeah. RW is the vigilante color pair. Although Batman is the least R vigilante out there. Boros can fall anywhere between lawful good and chaotic good depending on how much Red they exhibit.
I think I've given enough examples as to why a purely "good" alignment doesn't reflect the scope of the Boros.
RW in my mind is more like V from V for Vendeta, than the police brutes Boros are depicted usually. The romantism of vigilante is clearly cut in the Legion.
If i had to indentify them as they are really depicted, i would say lawful neutral.
Exactly. Maro even uses V as a perfect example of Red/White.
I think the good/evil scale doesn't work with entire guilds: good and evil are left to individuals within the guild. The lawful/chaotic scale fares only a bit better. While there are some guilds that can reasonably be placed on the lawful/chaotic scale (Azorius lawful, Rakdos chaotic), some guilds can stretch across the spectrum, and Boros is the biggest one.
As for RW... as there are plenty of ways particular colors can be expressed, there are also many ways particular color pairs can be expressed. V is one way to express RW; the Boros are another. Some versions of RW may feel passionate about enforcing the law, while others follow their own moral codes irrespective of any law.
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As for RW... as there are plenty of ways particular colors can be expressed, there are also many ways particular color pairs can be expressed. V is one way to express RW; the Boros are another. Some versions of RW may feel passionate about enforcing the law, while others follow their own moral codes irrespective of any law.
Maro did originally discuss that the Boros could have been anarchist cells, if I recall correctly. Certainly, Shadowmoor and Naya did offer alternatives to the usual military stuff.
Interesting. Certainly would shake up things a bit, given the nature of several D&D races and such.
I would argue that it didn't shake up the setting so much as our perceptions of it - there are a lot of classic D&D tropes which have always seemed like an awkward fit for its own alignment chart. Is the conqueror who wants to unite the lands under her own rule Lawful, or Chaotic? Dunno, but she's White in any case, possibly with a second color dealing more with what the principals of her rule would be.
It did give me a few stranger perspectives on things, however. For example, I came to the opinion that the classic "monstrous humanoid horde," consisting of small bands of independent raiders who prey on others primarily to meet their immediate needs and are led by a coalition of the strongest warrior and most spiritual shaman count as Black/Green... notably excluding Magic's standard "Orc and Goblin" color of Red. Clearly there's room for some disagreement - Tarkir paints a similar society as White/Black/Red, though notably with a more top-down leadership structure - but I still think there's a lot of merit in considering how Orcs might respond to threats in terms of endurance and self-interest, rather than raw emotion.
(Then again, I also think that assigning a color to V is impossible, since the whole point of the character is that it's unclear whether he actually believes the ideals of freedom he espouses, or is just manipulating people so that he can take revenge, and those different interpretations have roughly no color overlap. So what do I know?)
- I ask because some DND things are in aesthetic opposition to their Magic equivalent (ie the Lawful Evil fire efreet are about as anti-Red as it gets, for example)
- Orcs are now shaping up to be frequently Black as well, and they've always tapped into Green, so it's not very unusual. But that description does sound more Mardu than Green, especially the disregard of the greater picture. YMMV, of course.
- There's truth to that, but in the ending V did fully expect he/she/their ideals to be passed on, so there's at least some White there.
Enh. The Mardu get to be short-sighted despite including White, my take on Orcs are short-sighted despite including Green. My theory is that scavenger-predators without a lot of ideals are more Green than either White or Red.
- There's truth to that, but in the ending V did fully expect he/she/their ideals to be passed on, so there's at least some White there.
House Dimir expect their lies to be passed on. V is either R/W or U/B - at least in the comic. I think the movie was probably more clear cut, but it's been a while, so my memory may be misleading me.
I would argue that The Citadel is a lot more Mardu than the actual Mardu (I can't recall Zurgo Helmsmasher doing or thinking anything remotely White, ever). This is embodied by Joe's three lieutenants - Rictus Erectus is White*, The People Eater is Black, and The Bullet Farmer is Red. Joe, a crazed narcissist embodying a code of autocratic authority yet willing to risk his entire civilization on a fit of possessive rage, is all three.
* In that he's supremely devoted and loyal. As a super-strong guy with little cognitive function, one could also argue for Green, as MaRo did for Hodor. However, I'd edge into White, since Green is a worse fit for the Citadel's overall themes.
Enh. The Mardu get to be short-sighted despite including White, my take on Orcs are short-sighted despite including Green. My theory is that scavenger-predators without a lot of ideals are more Green than either White or Red.
Oh yes. I do mean White tends to (ironically, given its prefference for thought over instinct) be more short-sighted than Green, which usually takes the natural order into perspective.
- There's truth to that, but in the ending V did fully expect he/she/their ideals to be passed on, so there's at least some White there.
House Dimir expect their lies to be passed on. V is either R/W or U/B - at least in the comic. I think the movie was probably more clear cut, but it's been a while, so my memory may be misleading me.
The Dimir use sleeper agents and mind control; they don't expect anyone to take their ideals into heart. V, on the other hand, fully expected Evey or someone else to find them appealing.
House Dimir expect their lies to be passed on. V is either R/W or U/B - at least in the comic. I think the movie was probably more clear cut, but it's been a while, so my memory may be misleading me.
The movie is pretty clear about him being RW. He's an extremist responding to an extreme situation but ultimately wants to save Britain from Norsefire. In the comics he's genuinely an anarchist with his own agenda, arguably a heroic take on RB.
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http://hellyeahwhitevillainy.tumblr.com/post/136818289392/boros-alignment-chart-v1-kudos-dogpersonthing-on
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They're sort of the Batman of Magic, you can find a decent argument for all.
If i had to indentify them as they are really depicted, i would say lawful neutral.
I think I've given enough examples as to why a purely "good" alignment doesn't reflect the scope of the Boros.
Exactly. Maro even uses V as a perfect example of Red/White.
I think the good/evil scale doesn't work with entire guilds: good and evil are left to individuals within the guild. The lawful/chaotic scale fares only a bit better. While there are some guilds that can reasonably be placed on the lawful/chaotic scale (Azorius lawful, Rakdos chaotic), some guilds can stretch across the spectrum, and Boros is the biggest one.
I made two Boros alignment charts: one from before Gatecrash, and another in 2014, a few years later. Martial Glory works better in the Neutral Good slot, while Swift Justice is good in the True Neutral slot. Both Wojek Embermage and Renounce the Guilds work equally well in the Lawful Evil slot. Shattering Blow worked fine, but the first version with Wojek Siren was simpler and got the point across better.
As for RW... as there are plenty of ways particular colors can be expressed, there are also many ways particular color pairs can be expressed. V is one way to express RW; the Boros are another. Some versions of RW may feel passionate about enforcing the law, while others follow their own moral codes irrespective of any law.
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seeing the one turned back towards the other is like a portal through time. Surreal.
Oh wow. That's an absolutely fantastic idea. Forget needing Evil alignment for Vecna-Blooded. Just be Dimir.
Beautiful.
Maro did originally discuss that the Boros could have been anarchist cells, if I recall correctly. Certainly, Shadowmoor and Naya did offer alternatives to the usual military stuff.
Interesting. Certainly would shake up things a bit, given the nature of several D&D races and such.
It did give me a few stranger perspectives on things, however. For example, I came to the opinion that the classic "monstrous humanoid horde," consisting of small bands of independent raiders who prey on others primarily to meet their immediate needs and are led by a coalition of the strongest warrior and most spiritual shaman count as Black/Green... notably excluding Magic's standard "Orc and Goblin" color of Red. Clearly there's room for some disagreement - Tarkir paints a similar society as White/Black/Red, though notably with a more top-down leadership structure - but I still think there's a lot of merit in considering how Orcs might respond to threats in terms of endurance and self-interest, rather than raw emotion.
(Then again, I also think that assigning a color to V is impossible, since the whole point of the character is that it's unclear whether he actually believes the ideals of freedom he espouses, or is just manipulating people so that he can take revenge, and those different interpretations have roughly no color overlap. So what do I know?)
- Orcs are now shaping up to be frequently Black as well, and they've always tapped into Green, so it's not very unusual. But that description does sound more Mardu than Green, especially the disregard of the greater picture. YMMV, of course.
- There's truth to that, but in the ending V did fully expect he/she/their ideals to be passed on, so there's at least some White there.
House Dimir expect their lies to be passed on. V is either R/W or U/B - at least in the comic. I think the movie was probably more clear cut, but it's been a while, so my memory may be misleading me.
I would argue that The Citadel is a lot more Mardu than the actual Mardu (I can't recall Zurgo Helmsmasher doing or thinking anything remotely White, ever). This is embodied by Joe's three lieutenants - Rictus Erectus is White*, The People Eater is Black, and The Bullet Farmer is Red. Joe, a crazed narcissist embodying a code of autocratic authority yet willing to risk his entire civilization on a fit of possessive rage, is all three.
* In that he's supremely devoted and loyal. As a super-strong guy with little cognitive function, one could also argue for Green, as MaRo did for Hodor. However, I'd edge into White, since Green is a worse fit for the Citadel's overall themes.
He doesn't really have a lot of Red in him. More of an Orzhov person, with maybe Abzan leanings depending on how you see his caste system.
Oh yes. I do mean White tends to (ironically, given its prefference for thought over instinct) be more short-sighted than Green, which usually takes the natural order into perspective.
The Dimir use sleeper agents and mind control; they don't expect anyone to take their ideals into heart. V, on the other hand, fully expected Evey or someone else to find them appealing.
The movie is pretty clear about him being RW. He's an extremist responding to an extreme situation but ultimately wants to save Britain from Norsefire. In the comics he's genuinely an anarchist with his own agenda, arguably a heroic take on RB.