I am loathing the retcon they did to Nissa (too many retcons and she was more interesting before)...
I'm hating Gideons battle-heavy stories (too boring and repetitive)...
I'm puzzled at several weird plot points (retake Sea Gate to get food after the eldrazi occupied it?)...
But I really liked this particular story. I can relate to Nissa, and that makes it very enjoyable to me. Granted, I get that this is a very personal thing, and people who can't relate are left with only a large amount of text with very little happening. But I still liked and felt a bit sad for Nissa and Pipi (that was her name?).
Tarkir block stories, each with an end in itself and a lot happening, focusing in different characters, were far more interesting in average... (my feeling).
P.s.: does anyone feels like Zendikar is much more... 'tame' at this time? last time around, Zendikar felt to me like a very dangerous place, in which a hapless fool can die at any moment. Now, there's so much focus on the eldrazi menace, that it feels like "as long as you stay clear of eldrazi, you can survive just fine". The roil has been mentioned a few times, but still... it's just me?
Yeah can we not ***** on people with mental illnesses here, kthx?
Really? I'm not "*****ting" on people with mental illnesses. If I had picked on DTK Narset for her thought processes, who does have a legit mental illness in autism (according to Doug), then I would be a terrible person and my post should probably be deleted. What I'm saying is Sarkhan is a tit. Sarkhan doesn't have any real world mental illness. He's just stupid, deranged, gleefully doomed an entire civilization and should be put down.
Now that I think about it Sarkhan is actually probably more Green than Garruk. While Garruk was out trying to be the greatest predator in the multiverse Sarkhan simply wanted to stand at the feet of the beasts that already sit at the top of the food chain in awe and reverence. When he saved Ugin and created the DTK timeline it was because he saw a world in which everyone is stronger because the weak have been devoured and those that can survive under the reign of dragons are going to be naturally stronger and propagate their strength. Sarkhan's desires are basically natural selection incarnate.
Sarkhan, like every non-Garruk green walker, just embodies one side of Green. Sarkhan is Jund as Jund can get. I mean, we know he's Temur in DTK because Development needed him to have blue instead of black and that before that, he was going to be Jund.
Also, Sarkhan doesn't revere Dragons so much as the idea of dragons. He sees them as apex predators that rule their land and are free and noble. When he's met with a dragon that goes against all of his pre-conceived notions in Bolas it breaks his mind. I posit a Green character would feel reverence for any mighty apex predator and not just dragons. That's where the Red comes in.
Before going into Nissa's story, I want to point out that it is a misconception that animals will kill only to feed themselves. Animals will kill to protect their territory, animals will kill to assert their position in a hierarchy or to gain a new one, animals will kill to train their cubs, and so on and so forth. In the case of lions, they don't kill cubs out of cruelty (honestly, what is even 'cruelty' for an animal? It is just nonsense to talk like that). It is believed that they kill cubs from other males to ensure the propagation of their genes. How this behavior was selectively adapted I don't know.
I don't recall hearing of animals that 'kill for sport', specially because I don't know what that would mean to an animal. I'm a biologist, but zoology is not my field of expertise, though I wouldn't mind references if people are talking about that.
All that said, I will also add that Garruk is not only a better green character to me, he is a better impersonation of green himself. One quote of him that has marked me is something in the line of: "People think that I am a monster. They are wrong. I am a thousand of them". That just sums up how much more interesting he is to me - a natural predator, a man who has lived among nature and adopted it, learned all from its creatures and acquired his own strengh. Meanwhile Nissa was an elf supremacist retconned to be a nature lover, but I just can't buy this whole 'everything is connected' BS. Because, truly, nothing really is. Nature isn't about everything being 'connected' (whatever that is suppose to be), Nature exists in a dynamic equilibrium that is constantly being thrown of balance due to natural disasters, invasive species, weather changes (in the short term) and geographical changes (generally in the long term). Nature is not 'looking' for balance, equilibrium, or connection. Everything that lives is trying to spread their genes, and if that happens at the cost of everything else they will not give a damn, period. Just look at an algal bloom for instance. The algae will spread, suck up all the oxygen, release toxins in the waters and block the sunlight from everything else, but it does not matter to it, it is just doing its thing.
Of course that we have exceptions from symbiotic relationships or other positive interactions between different organisms, and mostly species in their natural habitat are already in the constant dynamic equilibrium that I mentioned, that is why they are not seen as 'harmful'. Now you introduce a species from somewhere else and see what happens. Nissa is not only bad because she is a different aspect of green, but because she does not get green AT ALL. I will concede that this is probably not 'her' fault, but from the common misconception spread throughout layman that influenced her creation. I would say that, instead of 'connected', in nature everything is 'dependant' on each other, in the sense that when you affect one part of it, there is a ripple effect that spreads throughout its many levels. Of course, you could use 'connection' to explain that, but people usually read connection as something positive, like every living organism is integrated to its habitat in a perfect and harmonious way (when it comes to nature, that is how it is read). Nissa is wrong, Garruk was right. He is better and more interesting to me.
About the story as a whole, two lines about it: it didn't read bad, it was just bland. I didn't mind reading it, it wasn't particularly boring per se (at least this time), but nothing happened again. That was a non-story if such a thing exists, and I don't know why we are still following Nissa at this point.
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He's just stupid, deranged, gleefully doomed an entire civilization and should be put down.
We have no idea what Sarkhan is like now after reaching enlightenment or whatever and there's no evidence he was ever stupid. Like Garruk his view of the world is very warped but that doesn't make him stupid. Destroying human civilization on Tarkir is certainly the most heinous thing we've seen a neo-walker do so far.
P.s.: does anyone feels like Zendikar is much more... 'tame' at this time? last time around, Zendikar felt to me like a very dangerous place, in which a hapless fool can die at any moment. Now, there's so much focus on the eldrazi menace, that it feels like "as long as you stay clear of eldrazi, you can survive just fine". The roil has been mentioned a few times, but still... it's just me?
It hasn't shown up very much in the stories recently but the roil is focused on the Eldrazi. I think if Noyan Dar shows up in the next story with Kiora we might see some roiling.
Really? I'm not "*****ting" on people with mental illnesses. If I had picked on DTK Narset, who does have a legit mental illness in autism (according to Doug), then I would be a terrible person and my post should probably be deleted. What I'm saying is Sarkhan is a tit. Sarkhan doesn't have any real world mental illness. He's just stupid, deranged, gleefully doomed an entire civilization and should be put down.
Sarkhan, like every non-Garruk green walker, just embodies one side of Green. Sarkhan is Jund as Jund can get. I mean, we know he's Temur in DTK because Development needed him to have blue instead of black and that before that, he was going to be Jund.
Also, Sarkhan doesn't revered Dragons so much as the idea of dragons. He sees them as apex predators that rule their land and are free and noble. When he's met with a dragon that goes against all of his pre-conceived notions in Bolas it breaks his mind. I posit a Green character would feel reverence for any mighty apex predator and not just dragons. That's where the Red comes in.
Who doomed an entire civilization? Do you mean the clans of Tarkir that were already on a doomed path and are now better and stronger and more prosperous thanks to the rule of the Dragonlords? Honestly I think Ugin and Bolas, and I guess we throw Niv and Ojutai in there as well, are atypical for dragons. Blue kinda messes up what is typical about Dragons. He happened to run into Bolas and Ugin who are the worst examples of what he worships in dragons. I imagine that if Karrthus hadn't been already enthralled to Bolas Sarkhan would have worshiped Karrthus.
Also about center of all leylines being on Bala Ged: the same Bala Ged which is overrun by Eldrazi except by tiny area occupied by Drana?
Drana (and the vampire city malakir) are on Guul Draz, not Bala Ged. Bala Ged should be entirely destroyed by now, supported by Culling Drone's flavour text.
When Nissa mentioned Khanli Heart, I was thinking "Oh, she goes to Akoum, just like Jace. Probably that is where they meet and solve the puzzle with the leylines together. Nice way to tie things together."
And then she went to Bala Ged and I was like "Wait, what."
In the case of lions, they don't kill cubs out of cruelty (honestly, what is even 'cruelty' for an animal? It is just nonsense to talk like that). It is believed that they kill cubs from other males to ensure the propagation of their genes. How this behavior was selectively adapted I don't know.
Well, if you have lions that kill cubs that are not their own and lions that don't, then that means the offspring of the first group has a higher chance to survive compared to the second group.
Who doomed an entire civilization? Do you mean the clans of Tarkir that were already on a doomed path and are now better and stronger and more prosperous thanks to the rule of the Dragonlords?
The cultures of modern Tarkir were totally functional civilizations in the original timeline. Also the dragon lords didn't make the clans more powerful: they eradicated them from history and reduced their members to the status of second class citizens. Nor is there any evidence that the dragon-lead clans are any more stable. The Ojutai are much more warlike than the Jeskai and the Atarka are actively destroying the environment in a way the Temur never did.
Slow down there partner. Green isn't just "nature herpdeederp." Green is about harmony, wisdom, knowing ones place within the greater scheme of things, destiny. Nissa isn't wrong she just embodies different aspects of Green. Like I said I like Garruk and Sarkhan(even though he's not mono Green) more as representatives of Greenbut Nissa isn't wrong. Which may be part of the reason they retconned her. Racism(or specism) isn't really a Green trait. It's more white. I mean yeah they could have handled it better.
Although I guess racism IS an Elven trait across almost every fantasy world I know of.
Vorthospike: It was said several times that the KTK clans were doomed due to their constant squabbling. Yes the names of the clans are indeed gone but the people are still there and they are treated well within all of the broods except Silumgar, but then again no one except Silumgar is treated well there. There was also substantially less fighting among the broods than among the KTK clans. From many people's perspectives the people, living under the Dragonlords, are better than they would have been under the Khans.
Who doomed an entire civilization? Do you mean the clans of Tarkir that were already on a doomed path and are now better and stronger and more prosperous thanks to the rule of the Dragonlords?
The cultures of modern Tarkir were totally functional civilizations in the original timeline. Also the dragon lords didn't make the clans more powerful: they eradicated them from history and reduced their members to the status of second class citizens. Nor is there any evidence that the dragon-lead clans are any more stable. The Ojutai are much more warlike than the Jeskai and the Atarka are actively destroying the environment in a way the Temur never did.
I think he was being sarcastic. Hard to detect on the internet, I know.
Slow down there partner. Green isn't just "nature herpdeederp." Green is about harmony, wisdom, knowing ones place within the greater scheme of things, destiny. Nissa isn't wrong she just embodies different aspects of Green. Like I said I like Garruk and Sarkhan(even though he's not mono Green) more as representatives of Greenbut Nissa isn't wrong. Which may be part of the reason they retconned her. Racism(or specism) isn't really a Green trait. It's more white. I mean yeah they could have handled it better.
Although I guess racism IS an Elven trait across almost every fantasy world I know of.
Racism can be a green trait if it is presented as "We are the chosen of nature. You are not, therefore you are inferior."
It admittedly works better as a WGB concept, but if she kept her Black-Green colors, she would've been 2 thirds there.
It's possible she's going to Bala Ged because it's closer to Akoum than wherever she is right now and she has mana connections there. Like the whole thing about Jace Planeswalking from the Eye of Ugin to Sea Gate.
I don't know that the story was specific enough in regards to where Khalni Heart actually is. Let's wait before we stomp on that ground.
I'm still honestly a bit baffled at how they took a character who was a freakin' racist that unleashed the titans on Zendikar, and somehow made her more unlikable by removing those facts.
This version of Nissa is still, in a weird way, kind of racist. Except now, instead of racist to non-elves, she's racist to non-planes. She was so vehement and understanding about how the goblins were a part of Lorwyn and shouldn't be killed, and yet, she's treating the people fighting back, fighting to "take Zendikar back" like garbage, for thinking that way? She's stuck in this weird mindset of "Nobody was chosen by Zendikar, but everyone was chosen by Zendikar" and while that dynamic could work if it was being presented as some harmonious thing, it's being treated like a switch in Nissa's head, and that's making it unpalatable.
As for the nature thing, don't forget Dolphins! Pretty big ********s of the sea.
As one may presume, I wasn't too fond of this story. There's potential, but MAN do Nissa's stories struggle.
Slow down there partner. Green isn't just "nature herpdeederp." Green is about harmony, wisdom, knowing ones place within the greater scheme of things, destiny. Nissa isn't wrong she just embodies different aspects of Green. Like I said I like Garruk and Sarkhan(even though he's not mono Green) more as representatives of Greenbut Nissa isn't wrong. Which may be part of the reason they retconned her. Racism(or specism) isn't really a Green trait. It's more white. I mean yeah they could have handled it better.
Although I guess racism IS an Elven trait across almost every fantasy world I know of.
I wasn't talking about what the color green represents to magic the gathering the game. I was talking about Nature and how Nissa is wrong about it. Maybe you can justify that in a fantasy world where you can make 'souls' for the planes Nature would work in a different way, but I'm taking a grounded approach based on how it works in our world. Nissa is wrong about Nature, or at least the way they represent her shows me that she is wrong.
EDIT: I will edit this here because I'm sure it can cause some confusion. What I said about green is that Garruk is a better impersonation of green to me. What I said about Nissa is that she is wrong in the way she thinks about Nature. Garruk to me incorporates all the traits that you mentioned. He had wisdow to deal with nature and its beasts, he was in 'harmony' with it (I don't like this term very much), and he definetly knew his place: at the top of the food chain.
EDIT2: I saw now that on my second paragraph I said "Nissa does not get green at all". I stand for this point of view, but honestly what I mean there was Nature as a whole, the physical world, not the psychological aspect of green of Wisdow, Nurturing, Destiny etc. The literal physical part of it, but now it is already typed as green and I will leave it be.
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I think he was being sarcastic. Hard to detect on the internet, I know.
I was entirely serious. Like I said in my above edit; it was said many times that the clans were doomed because of their fighting. From plenty of various perspectives, including Green one, what Sarkhan did was entirely good. Personally I'd be entirely satisfied living under Ojutai. While I'm not a big fan of White I would be happy to live in a society who's tenants are "Seek enlightenment.", "Pursue wisdom.", "Gather knowledge.", "Find truth." And I would get to live among the greatest symbol of power and ancient wisdom that the human mind has ever dreamed of? I would be sooooooo happy.
I think he was being sarcastic. Hard to detect on the internet, I know.
I was entirely serious.
In that case, it's been noted from several wizards sources that Sarkhan made the world worse for everyone but Sarkhan and dragonkind. "Because it's a time travel trope."
Just from the guide to DTK we know life is objectively worse for non-dragons than in original Tarkir. You have no hope of advancing in society and dragons can kill you at any time without any repercussions. The only clan where non-dragons have anything resembling a life worth living is Dromoka.
In contrast, they say that Tarkir was "dying" in the original timeline, but it isn't showed at all in-story and it's just Sarkhan that thinks that... and he's as unreliable as a narrator as you can get.
I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before in either this thread or the original and you came around.
Nissa's issue is that all the more interesting green traits have been used on other characters. Garruk is all about hunting, being a predator and being anti civilization. The old version of Nissa was an elf supremacist, similar to the elves on Lorwyn. Freyalise had the badass elf queen thing going on for her. Nylea, the green god of the hunt, was extremely passionate about protecting nature from mortal influence.
This new version of Nissa is so boring because all the cool attributes of green have been used up all ready, or the creative team declines to reuse. Nissa is now a boring druid. It doesn't help that all she does is complain about how her elemental buddy is gone. She needs someone with a conflicting opinion to talk to, not a speechless summoned creature or some boring nobody.
Jace was paired with both Liliana and Gideon, which allows us to see the ideological conflicts the they have with him. Gideon wants to protect the camp, Jace believes that learning more will save Zendikar.
Nissa needs a literary foil to interact with, which would make her stories suck less.
In that case, it's been noted from several wizards sources that Sarkhan made the world worse for everyone but Sarkhan and dragonkind. "Because it's a time travel trope."
Just from the guide to DTK we know life is objectively worse for non-dragons than in original Tarkir. You have no hope of advancing in society and dragons can kill you at any time without any repercussions. The only clan where non-dragons have anything resembling a life worth living is Dromoka.
In contrast, they say that Tarkir was "dying" in the original timeline, but it isn't showed at all in-story and it's just Sarkhan that thinks that... and he's as unreliable as a narrator as you can get.
I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before in either this thread or the original and you came around.
I don't recall anyone saying that. We know that life for the Dromoka and Ojutai non-dragons was not one that could be considered bad. In Narset's story it was shown that those outside the Monasteries lived reasonably normal lives as well as Narset's high advancement within the brood. We were actually shown very little of the Dromoka except for the Dragon patron system. Also from the few depictions of the Kolaghan no one seemed particularly upset with their lives. With the Atarka only the elementalists were particularly upset with their life. Like I said the only group that seemed like life was bad for them were the Silumgar. And honestly it wasn't too good for the humans before anyway.
Also if I remember right Ugin's spirit(lolwut) sent Sarkhan to Tarkir with the understanding that the plane was dying under the rule of the Khans.
In that case, it's been noted from several wizards sources that Sarkhan made the world worse for everyone but Sarkhan and dragonkind. "Because it's a time travel trope."
Just from the guide to DTK we know life is objectively worse for non-dragons than in original Tarkir. You have no hope of advancing in society and dragons can kill you at any time without any repercussions. The only clan where non-dragons have anything resembling a life worth living is Dromoka.
In contrast, they say that Tarkir was "dying" in the original timeline, but it isn't showed at all in-story and it's just Sarkhan that thinks that... and he's as unreliable as a narrator as you can get.
I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before in either this thread or the original and you came around.
I don't recall anyone saying that. We know that life for the Dromoka and Ojutai non-dragons was not one that could be considered bad. In Narset's story it was shown that those outside the Monasteries lived reasonably normal lives as well as Narset's high advancement within the brood. We were actually shown very little of the Dromoka except for the Dragon patron system. Also from the few depictions of the Kolaghan no one seemed particularly upset with their lives. With the Atarka only the elementalists were particularly upset with their life. Like I said the only group that seemed like life was bad for them were the Silumgar. And honestly it wasn't too good for the humans before anyway.
Also if I remember right Ugin's spirit(lolwut) sent Sarkhan to Tarkir with the understanding that the plane was dying under the rule of the Khans.
The general consensus is that it's bad because the sapient species known as humans are considered second-class citizens, and they don't particularly care for it. Dromoka clan being the only one that haven't had to deal with open rebellion (and of course the clan splashing black would go for more covert civil warfare).
The big issue is that, whatever problems the humans were dealing with in original Tarkir just got a new coat of paint. The dragons are doing the same thing that the Khans did, but on a much grander scale. Tarkir is a world that needs balance, and right now, they ain't got none of that.
Also, pointing out the life of one very privileged and exceptional child is probably not the best example of life being fine in the Ojutai brood.
And I think Ugin's spirit was less "Dude, your home plane is dying" and more "Hey, dude, I'm dead. Make me not dead. Everything's kind of crap when you're dead."
Yeah can we not ***** on people with mental illnesses here, kthx?
Really? I'm not "*****ting" on people with mental illnesses. If I had picked on DTK Narset for her thought processes, who does have a legit mental illness in autism (according to Doug), then I would be a terrible person and my post should probably be deleted. What I'm saying is Sarkhan is a tit. Sarkhan doesn't have any real world mental illness. He's just stupid, deranged, gleefully doomed an entire civilization and should be put down.
Except that's not what you said. You said he was "nuttier than a fruitcake" and "insane." These in themselves do not connote "inhuman" and "violent."
Furthermore, you do realize that everything Sarkhan said and did was a product of Wizards R&D trying to tell a particular kind of story? The reason DTK turned out the way it did was because MaRo severely underestimated the popularity of Warlord World and overestimated the popularity of Dragon World in the other direction. He said as much in his latest state of design article. Does that mean all the people who had creative input into KTK block are "stupid," "deranged" and "should be put down"?
Sarkhan himself barely even did anything other than use the hedron fragment on Ugin (which, as someone who likes Sorin/Nahiri/Zendikar more than either Warlord World or Dragon World, I would argue was on balance a good thing).
Blanket assumptions about a society or plane will inevitably miss the mark. Some people love it under the broods, some hate it. And so the world turns and turns and turns. To ash. I guess we'll see the ones who like the new Tarkir dancing in the ruins of what's gone. Where monuments to the old clans and khans used to be.
I would think a world ruled by dragons would breed warlords that engage with other warlords representing the human faction of the various broods. Why can't you have both when it makes sense? Please don't kill Sarkhan - you do that and you're left with milquetoast like new Nissa, Jace and Gideon.
Edit:
Jenrik, I too enjoy her elementalist magic and the nature of Zendikar. However, the decisions made with Nissa's new origin story sort of wipe the slate of what made her so enjoyable in the old Zendikar storyline (as well as her progression into the Worldwaker back in that older uncharted realms article).
I think the Ugin sending Sarkhan to Tarkir would've been better if Creative left it vague as to whether or not Ugin was actually pushing Sarkhan. Like, instead its an Ugin of Sarkhan's own creation that prompts him to return to Tarkir to heal the elder dragon and bring back the dragon broods. An Ugin that's a construct of Sarkhan's mind instead of simply being Ugin himself.
I love Nissa's sympathetic nature mage traits and her connection to Zendikar, especially when it manifests as Ashaya. I admire how her character has evolved.
What I didn't like is claiming she's communicated with other planes. Zendikar is supposed to be semi-sentient, akin to Pandora in AVATAR. I'd prefer to see that highlighted in the lore.
The issue I have with Nissa stories is the same issue I've had with the last seven weeks of stories - open-ended, non-resolving filler that only sets the stage for something promised to come, that seemingly won't. Get to the story already instead of beating around it. She should be in Khalni Heart already. There's a war against alien gods consuming a loved popular plane and it takes three weeks of stories just for Nissa to figure something out?
Furthermore, you do realize that everything Sarkhan said and did was a product of Wizards R&D trying to tell a particular kind of story? The reason DTK turned out the way it did was because MaRo severely underestimated the popularity of Warlord World and overestimated the popularity of Dragon World in the other direction. He said as much in his latest state of design article. Does that mean all the people who had creative input into KTK block are "stupid," "deranged" and "should be put down"?
I was taking this pretty not-seriously, but now I will take it seriously. I get that we live in an overly-PC age, but come the hell on. Do you think I'm here making fun of the fact that Sarkhan is insane, or am I just making fun of Sarkhan?
I guess in your world nobody can say Trump is insane because that somehow insults insane (even though this isn't even a psychologically-accepted term) people. Wish to continue this? I'm sure there's a section on mtgsalvation that would be more accepting of this discussion.
Finally formulated my problem with current Nissa: "forest itself gives me power" / "I feel connection to all living things" person was done to death. And her special trait is that she sees the cute side of what was the plane with most violent temper - maybe that's fair in this setting, but uncomfortably close to real world people who see nature through rose tinted glasses.
Funny that the traits that gave me respect to portrayal of Nissa in times of before retcon - pragmatic, thinking that her people are superior but still effectively working with other species, protector of her people even through dark means - are now on Drana. Who is vampire whom Nissa always hated.
I was entirely serious. Like I said in my above edit; it was said many times that the clans were doomed because of their fighting. From plenty of various perspectives, including Green one, what Sarkhan did was entirely good.
If you honestly and truly believe that living under a dictatorship that simply goes out to kill anyone who disagrees with their regime (and indeed even commences cultural cleansing pre-emtpively) is a good thing and worth striving for, then I guess that's your opinion but please stay the **** away from any voting ballots during elections.
People, once more this is a CARD GAME. Knock off the increasingly personal attacks, or we're going to have to start handing out warnings. If you can't make your point civilly, don't post it at all.
I am loathing the retcon they did to Nissa (too many retcons and she was more interesting before)...
I'm hating Gideons battle-heavy stories (too boring and repetitive)...
I'm puzzled at several weird plot points (retake Sea Gate to get food after the eldrazi occupied it?)...
But I really liked this particular story. I can relate to Nissa, and that makes it very enjoyable to me. Granted, I get that this is a very personal thing, and people who can't relate are left with only a large amount of text with very little happening. But I still liked and felt a bit sad for Nissa and Pipi (that was her name?).
Tarkir block stories, each with an end in itself and a lot happening, focusing in different characters, were far more interesting in average... (my feeling).
P.s.: does anyone feels like Zendikar is much more... 'tame' at this time? last time around, Zendikar felt to me like a very dangerous place, in which a hapless fool can die at any moment. Now, there's so much focus on the eldrazi menace, that it feels like "as long as you stay clear of eldrazi, you can survive just fine". The roil has been mentioned a few times, but still... it's just me?
Really? I'm not "*****ting" on people with mental illnesses. If I had picked on DTK Narset for her thought processes, who does have a legit mental illness in autism (according to Doug), then I would be a terrible person and my post should probably be deleted. What I'm saying is Sarkhan is a tit. Sarkhan doesn't have any real world mental illness. He's just stupid, deranged, gleefully doomed an entire civilization and should be put down.
Sarkhan, like every non-Garruk green walker, just embodies one side of Green. Sarkhan is Jund as Jund can get. I mean, we know he's Temur in DTK because Development needed him to have blue instead of black and that before that, he was going to be Jund.
Also, Sarkhan doesn't revere Dragons so much as the idea of dragons. He sees them as apex predators that rule their land and are free and noble. When he's met with a dragon that goes against all of his pre-conceived notions in Bolas it breaks his mind. I posit a Green character would feel reverence for any mighty apex predator and not just dragons. That's where the Red comes in.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I don't recall hearing of animals that 'kill for sport', specially because I don't know what that would mean to an animal. I'm a biologist, but zoology is not my field of expertise, though I wouldn't mind references if people are talking about that.
All that said, I will also add that Garruk is not only a better green character to me, he is a better impersonation of green himself. One quote of him that has marked me is something in the line of: "People think that I am a monster. They are wrong. I am a thousand of them". That just sums up how much more interesting he is to me - a natural predator, a man who has lived among nature and adopted it, learned all from its creatures and acquired his own strengh. Meanwhile Nissa was an elf supremacist retconned to be a nature lover, but I just can't buy this whole 'everything is connected' BS. Because, truly, nothing really is. Nature isn't about everything being 'connected' (whatever that is suppose to be), Nature exists in a dynamic equilibrium that is constantly being thrown of balance due to natural disasters, invasive species, weather changes (in the short term) and geographical changes (generally in the long term). Nature is not 'looking' for balance, equilibrium, or connection. Everything that lives is trying to spread their genes, and if that happens at the cost of everything else they will not give a damn, period. Just look at an algal bloom for instance. The algae will spread, suck up all the oxygen, release toxins in the waters and block the sunlight from everything else, but it does not matter to it, it is just doing its thing.
Of course that we have exceptions from symbiotic relationships or other positive interactions between different organisms, and mostly species in their natural habitat are already in the constant dynamic equilibrium that I mentioned, that is why they are not seen as 'harmful'. Now you introduce a species from somewhere else and see what happens. Nissa is not only bad because she is a different aspect of green, but because she does not get green AT ALL. I will concede that this is probably not 'her' fault, but from the common misconception spread throughout layman that influenced her creation. I would say that, instead of 'connected', in nature everything is 'dependant' on each other, in the sense that when you affect one part of it, there is a ripple effect that spreads throughout its many levels. Of course, you could use 'connection' to explain that, but people usually read connection as something positive, like every living organism is integrated to its habitat in a perfect and harmonious way (when it comes to nature, that is how it is read). Nissa is wrong, Garruk was right. He is better and more interesting to me.
About the story as a whole, two lines about it: it didn't read bad, it was just bland. I didn't mind reading it, it wasn't particularly boring per se (at least this time), but nothing happened again. That was a non-story if such a thing exists, and I don't know why we are still following Nissa at this point.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
We have no idea what Sarkhan is like now after reaching enlightenment or whatever and there's no evidence he was ever stupid. Like Garruk his view of the world is very warped but that doesn't make him stupid. Destroying human civilization on Tarkir is certainly the most heinous thing we've seen a neo-walker do so far.
It hasn't shown up very much in the stories recently but the roil is focused on the Eldrazi. I think if Noyan Dar shows up in the next story with Kiora we might see some roiling.
Who doomed an entire civilization? Do you mean the clans of Tarkir that were already on a doomed path and are now better and stronger and more prosperous thanks to the rule of the Dragonlords? Honestly I think Ugin and Bolas, and I guess we throw Niv and Ojutai in there as well, are atypical for dragons. Blue kinda messes up what is typical about Dragons. He happened to run into Bolas and Ugin who are the worst examples of what he worships in dragons. I imagine that if Karrthus hadn't been already enthralled to Bolas Sarkhan would have worshiped Karrthus.
Drana (and the vampire city malakir) are on Guul Draz, not Bala Ged. Bala Ged should be entirely destroyed by now, supported by Culling Drone's flavour text.
When Nissa mentioned Khanli Heart, I was thinking "Oh, she goes to Akoum, just like Jace. Probably that is where they meet and solve the puzzle with the leylines together. Nice way to tie things together."
And then she went to Bala Ged and I was like "Wait, what."
Well, if you have lions that kill cubs that are not their own and lions that don't, then that means the offspring of the first group has a higher chance to survive compared to the second group.
Highfive!
The cultures of modern Tarkir were totally functional civilizations in the original timeline. Also the dragon lords didn't make the clans more powerful: they eradicated them from history and reduced their members to the status of second class citizens. Nor is there any evidence that the dragon-lead clans are any more stable. The Ojutai are much more warlike than the Jeskai and the Atarka are actively destroying the environment in a way the Temur never did.
Slow down there partner. Green isn't just "nature herpdeederp." Green is about harmony, wisdom, knowing ones place within the greater scheme of things, destiny. Nissa isn't wrong she just embodies different aspects of Green. Like I said I like Garruk and Sarkhan(even though he's not mono Green) more as representatives of Greenbut Nissa isn't wrong. Which may be part of the reason they retconned her. Racism(or specism) isn't really a Green trait. It's more white. I mean yeah they could have handled it better.
Although I guess racism IS an Elven trait across almost every fantasy world I know of.
Vorthospike: It was said several times that the KTK clans were doomed due to their constant squabbling. Yes the names of the clans are indeed gone but the people are still there and they are treated well within all of the broods except Silumgar, but then again no one except Silumgar is treated well there. There was also substantially less fighting among the broods than among the KTK clans. From many people's perspectives the people, living under the Dragonlords, are better than they would have been under the Khans.
I think he was being sarcastic. Hard to detect on the internet, I know.
Racism can be a green trait if it is presented as "We are the chosen of nature. You are not, therefore you are inferior."
It admittedly works better as a WGB concept, but if she kept her Black-Green colors, she would've been 2 thirds there.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I don't know that the story was specific enough in regards to where Khalni Heart actually is. Let's wait before we stomp on that ground.
I'm still honestly a bit baffled at how they took a character who was a freakin' racist that unleashed the titans on Zendikar, and somehow made her more unlikable by removing those facts.
This version of Nissa is still, in a weird way, kind of racist. Except now, instead of racist to non-elves, she's racist to non-planes. She was so vehement and understanding about how the goblins were a part of Lorwyn and shouldn't be killed, and yet, she's treating the people fighting back, fighting to "take Zendikar back" like garbage, for thinking that way? She's stuck in this weird mindset of "Nobody was chosen by Zendikar, but everyone was chosen by Zendikar" and while that dynamic could work if it was being presented as some harmonious thing, it's being treated like a switch in Nissa's head, and that's making it unpalatable.
As for the nature thing, don't forget Dolphins! Pretty big ********s of the sea.
As one may presume, I wasn't too fond of this story. There's potential, but MAN do Nissa's stories struggle.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I wasn't talking about what the color green represents to magic the gathering the game. I was talking about Nature and how Nissa is wrong about it. Maybe you can justify that in a fantasy world where you can make 'souls' for the planes Nature would work in a different way, but I'm taking a grounded approach based on how it works in our world. Nissa is wrong about Nature, or at least the way they represent her shows me that she is wrong.
EDIT: I will edit this here because I'm sure it can cause some confusion. What I said about green is that Garruk is a better impersonation of green to me. What I said about Nissa is that she is wrong in the way she thinks about Nature. Garruk to me incorporates all the traits that you mentioned. He had wisdow to deal with nature and its beasts, he was in 'harmony' with it (I don't like this term very much), and he definetly knew his place: at the top of the food chain.
EDIT2: I saw now that on my second paragraph I said "Nissa does not get green at all". I stand for this point of view, but honestly what I mean there was Nature as a whole, the physical world, not the psychological aspect of green of Wisdow, Nurturing, Destiny etc. The literal physical part of it, but now it is already typed as green and I will leave it be.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I was entirely serious. Like I said in my above edit; it was said many times that the clans were doomed because of their fighting. From plenty of various perspectives, including Green one, what Sarkhan did was entirely good. Personally I'd be entirely satisfied living under Ojutai. While I'm not a big fan of White I would be happy to live in a society who's tenants are "Seek enlightenment.", "Pursue wisdom.", "Gather knowledge.", "Find truth." And I would get to live among the greatest symbol of power and ancient wisdom that the human mind has ever dreamed of? I would be sooooooo happy.
In that case, it's been noted from several wizards sources that Sarkhan made the world worse for everyone but Sarkhan and dragonkind. "Because it's a time travel trope."
Just from the guide to DTK we know life is objectively worse for non-dragons than in original Tarkir. You have no hope of advancing in society and dragons can kill you at any time without any repercussions. The only clan where non-dragons have anything resembling a life worth living is Dromoka.
In contrast, they say that Tarkir was "dying" in the original timeline, but it isn't showed at all in-story and it's just Sarkhan that thinks that... and he's as unreliable as a narrator as you can get.
I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before in either this thread or the original and you came around.
Your mods are terrified of me.
This new version of Nissa is so boring because all the cool attributes of green have been used up all ready, or the creative team declines to reuse. Nissa is now a boring druid. It doesn't help that all she does is complain about how her elemental buddy is gone. She needs someone with a conflicting opinion to talk to, not a speechless summoned creature or some boring nobody.
Jace was paired with both Liliana and Gideon, which allows us to see the ideological conflicts the they have with him. Gideon wants to protect the camp, Jace believes that learning more will save Zendikar.
Nissa needs a literary foil to interact with, which would make her stories suck less.
I don't recall anyone saying that. We know that life for the Dromoka and Ojutai non-dragons was not one that could be considered bad. In Narset's story it was shown that those outside the Monasteries lived reasonably normal lives as well as Narset's high advancement within the brood. We were actually shown very little of the Dromoka except for the Dragon patron system. Also from the few depictions of the Kolaghan no one seemed particularly upset with their lives. With the Atarka only the elementalists were particularly upset with their life. Like I said the only group that seemed like life was bad for them were the Silumgar. And honestly it wasn't too good for the humans before anyway.
Also if I remember right Ugin's spirit(lolwut) sent Sarkhan to Tarkir with the understanding that the plane was dying under the rule of the Khans.
The general consensus is that it's bad because the sapient species known as humans are considered second-class citizens, and they don't particularly care for it. Dromoka clan being the only one that haven't had to deal with open rebellion (and of course the clan splashing black would go for more covert civil warfare).
The big issue is that, whatever problems the humans were dealing with in original Tarkir just got a new coat of paint. The dragons are doing the same thing that the Khans did, but on a much grander scale. Tarkir is a world that needs balance, and right now, they ain't got none of that.
Also, pointing out the life of one very privileged and exceptional child is probably not the best example of life being fine in the Ojutai brood.
And I think Ugin's spirit was less "Dude, your home plane is dying" and more "Hey, dude, I'm dead. Make me not dead. Everything's kind of crap when you're dead."
Except that's not what you said. You said he was "nuttier than a fruitcake" and "insane." These in themselves do not connote "inhuman" and "violent."
Furthermore, you do realize that everything Sarkhan said and did was a product of Wizards R&D trying to tell a particular kind of story? The reason DTK turned out the way it did was because MaRo severely underestimated the popularity of Warlord World and overestimated the popularity of Dragon World in the other direction. He said as much in his latest state of design article. Does that mean all the people who had creative input into KTK block are "stupid," "deranged" and "should be put down"?
Sarkhan himself barely even did anything other than use the hedron fragment on Ugin (which, as someone who likes Sorin/Nahiri/Zendikar more than either Warlord World or Dragon World, I would argue was on balance a good thing).
Even as a dorky kid with no martial skills, Narset, her family, and her general community seemed to be reasonably well off and happy.
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I would think a world ruled by dragons would breed warlords that engage with other warlords representing the human faction of the various broods. Why can't you have both when it makes sense? Please don't kill Sarkhan - you do that and you're left with milquetoast like new Nissa, Jace and Gideon.
Edit:
Jenrik, I too enjoy her elementalist magic and the nature of Zendikar. However, the decisions made with Nissa's new origin story sort of wipe the slate of what made her so enjoyable in the old Zendikar storyline (as well as her progression into the Worldwaker back in that older uncharted realms article).
I think the Ugin sending Sarkhan to Tarkir would've been better if Creative left it vague as to whether or not Ugin was actually pushing Sarkhan. Like, instead its an Ugin of Sarkhan's own creation that prompts him to return to Tarkir to heal the elder dragon and bring back the dragon broods. An Ugin that's a construct of Sarkhan's mind instead of simply being Ugin himself.
What I didn't like is claiming she's communicated with other planes. Zendikar is supposed to be semi-sentient, akin to Pandora in AVATAR. I'd prefer to see that highlighted in the lore.
The issue I have with Nissa stories is the same issue I've had with the last seven weeks of stories - open-ended, non-resolving filler that only sets the stage for something promised to come, that seemingly won't. Get to the story already instead of beating around it. She should be in Khalni Heart already. There's a war against alien gods consuming a loved popular plane and it takes three weeks of stories just for Nissa to figure something out?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Watch the PAX panels with the Creative team.
Or listen to the Tarkir Drive to Works.
Or just check MaRo's blog.
I was taking this pretty not-seriously, but now I will take it seriously. I get that we live in an overly-PC age, but come the hell on. Do you think I'm here making fun of the fact that Sarkhan is insane, or am I just making fun of Sarkhan?
I guess in your world nobody can say Trump is insane because that somehow insults insane (even though this isn't even a psychologically-accepted term) people. Wish to continue this? I'm sure there's a section on mtgsalvation that would be more accepting of this discussion.
Come on, guy. Come on.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Funny that the traits that gave me respect to portrayal of Nissa in times of before retcon - pragmatic, thinking that her people are superior but still effectively working with other species, protector of her people even through dark means - are now on Drana. Who is vampire whom Nissa always hated.
If you honestly and truly believe that living under a dictatorship that simply goes out to kill anyone who disagrees with their regime (and indeed even commences cultural cleansing pre-emtpively) is a good thing and worth striving for, then I guess that's your opinion but please stay the **** away from any voting ballots during elections.
*raises eyebrow*
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