Watch Ugin not even appear. Is Kiora seriously planeswalking away? Have we even heard from her sister?
Guess getting owned by Thassa and Kozilek wasn't enough to give Kiora any real dimension. She had potential to become something more, but just like this entire BFZ story, it will not be realized. I really can't believe she even has the heart to wield that Bident after how she failed.
The mystery of the ending was actually good. But what about Zendikar recovering its mana, and draining the titans? Well, one story left to wait for and see. I can just imagine it'll be Beyer again, or even better, Kreines delivering the cherry on top of this all.
Halimar is a basin so I imagine there was still water in it after Sea Gate was broken. Kiora had also been swishing water hither and thither in the area so it may well have refilled some. It was indeed over the top but I think they wanted to demonstrate the lengths to which Kiora would go.
The only part that confused me was what was Kiora doing with Chandra? Did she start to help pull Chandra to her feet then drop her? That part was confusingly written.
Ajduk: do you know what the term Deus Ex Machine means? The seeds are not in any way that. We've known about them for nearly the entirety of the story. we know that Nissa had every intent of using them on Zendikar. Deus Ex machina has no prior set up.
Negate can stop Worldfire. Why would Jace countering a spell be weird?
For the same reason that fifteen squirrels shouldn't be able to kill Emrakul in the story and why Gideon shouldn't be able to just equip ten swords to kill Ulamog and survive.
The scale and quality of things/spells/events in the card game and the story will always be different and quite frankly, if it is that easy to counter almost every spell, no matter how supposedly powerful it is, then Jace has to do nothing but tap 1UU (or UU if he studied some old spells) all day and be done with it. Remember that in the story, mages don't draw cards and have every spell at their disposal all the time. If he would always be able to counter everything that isn't specifically uncounterable there would be no story wherever Jace is around.
I completely disagree with Maro's statement about the team losing their first battle would be bad. Some of the most compelling storytelling is how a protagonist responds to defeat and if theyre able to overcome the loss.
It is especially baffling that it comes from Maro, who used to be a screenwriter and is supposed to have some experience in writing stories? I mean, you don't start a story with a character solving all issues in the first five minutes and then doing nothing. One of the basic arcs for heroes is that they fail at something at the very beginning, then they do stuff in the middle to prepare them for the final fight, which will then result at the end in them winning over whatever they lost to at the beginning. Like seriously, have the gatewatch lose their first fight and Zendikar (instant emotional impact and motivation), then have several blocks (and stories!) dedicated to them helping out other planes and recruiting new members until at the end of the gatewatch story arc they take on the Eldrazi again, now a lot more experienced and prepared.
I agree that the archetypal hero's journey would have served this story, and the longer story of the planeswalkers, well. I mean, if they did in fact destroy two Eldrazi, what can't these young folks do? Even if they wanted them to succeed, at least inflict a heavy cost. Something to lay them low so they can rise again.
Also, a question about Zendikar and mana. The Eldrazi were feeding on the plane for how long now? Huge swathes of the plane are manaless wastes, if not most of it. Then what mana is left to the plane is channeled by Nissa through Chandra to obliterate the Eldrazi overlay with fire. Fire consumes. You don't get that power back after you burn it. And based on the description, it took a ton of power to slam the Eldrazi. So how much mana can the plane possibly still have? And how can it get more? There's that one plane in Planechase, I think, that was totally dead, with no mana. Does mana on a plane just spontaneously recreate itself? Does Nissa's sigil create more? How?
Usually I don’t say much anymore, for a number of reasons, but I had a couple of things that I really wanted to say.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
EPISODE 10: ZENDIKAR RESURGENT
The four Planeswalkers who came together to battle the Eldrazi have won! In destroying the titans Ulamog and Kozilek, they succeeded in pulling the entire world of Zendikar back from the brink of extinction. Now, in the aftermath of their victory, Gideon, Jace, Chandra, and Nissa must decide what will come next.
Private Mod Note
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
If death of two titans leads to disastrous results for multiverse, then Ugin is the first to blame. He spent several millenia on not finding out what such event would lead to, he installed flimsy lock which can't be reinstalled fast, and he didn't check when the aligned hedron network failed. And, after all, he is aeons old dragon and gatewatch are bunch of scared kids. So if he pops up saying "told you so" without actually getting his paws dirty, , he totally deserves "we at least did something" response.
he installed flimsy lock which can't be reinstalled fast
Flimsy? It was actually a very good lock that was only cracked, because a puppet master carefully engineered a scenario in which three planeswalkers congregated at a secret location and used one specific kind of spell that is actually somewhat unique in the multiverse. This wasn't poor luck, this was Bolas directly manipulating the events.
Plus, it wasn't the only lock, it was one of many.
And additionally it probably could have been reinstalled quickly, if it weren't for the fact that Nahiri went missing. (A pretty cool plot point would have been that the mending made Nahiri die of old age, which would have meant that Ugin's plan to rebuild the lock doesn't work because of the mending, which nobody in their time could really have foreseen, at all.)
And, after all, he is aeons old dragon and gatewatch are bunch of scared kids. So if he pops up saying "told you so" without actually getting his paws dirty, , he totally deserves "we at least did something" response.
"Kids, don't play with fire.
No seriously, I mean it.
Put down those matches, I don't want anything bad happening.
Goddamnit what is wrong with you kids?"
---> House burns down and Ugin is to blame. This logic.
The only part that confused me was what was Kiora doing with Chandra? Did she start to help pull Chandra to her feet then drop her? That part was confusingly written.
Lol that part was confusing to me too, and made me laugh, the way Doug wrote it. I believe what happens is as Chandra is getting up, her back is broken which causes her to cry out from the pain (as is what happens when you try to move people with broken bones), and it prompts Kiora to let her back down. But Doug wrote it like "Kiora released her and let her lie" or something to that effect. Which made me imagine Kiora just letting go when Chandra was halfway up.
"aligned hedron network failed" should better be named as "thing Jace, Nissa and co were doing when Ob appeared". Ugin was definitely not comatose at the moment. Btw, add "did nothing when Kozilek resurfaced" to the list.
And I would count that lock as flimsy if installer's enemy is Nicol Bolas level. Granted, every lock is flimsy when your enemy is Nicol Bolas, but in this case I would search for minimizing the consequences - like, training stoneforge mythics so in sufficient numbers they might serve as Nahiri replacement if something will happen to her. In any case, I would not put all my eggs in basket called Zendikar.
About warnings: it's one thing saying "don't do that, because so and so will happen" when recipient is in no danger, and another is saying "don't try this even as the very last resort to save the whole world, because something bad might happen" - especially when you have several millenia to find out the danger.
And I would count that lock as flimsy if installer's enemy is Nicol Bolas level. Granted, every lock is flimsy when your enemy is Nicol Bolas, but in this case I would search for minimizing the consequences - like, training stoneforge mythics so in sufficient numbers they might serve as Nahiri replacement if something will happen to her. In any case, I would not put all my eggs in basket called Zendikar.
If I recall correctly, they actually addressed this in Revelation at the Eye. When criticized by Jace on how his lock had been so easily undone, Ugin corrects him that he was actually manipulated purposefully into doing so, and that Ugin felt the lock was otherwise safe because he thought no one one in their right mind, if they did find out how to unseal them and what "them" actually was, would want them from free in the multiverse. Even now we know that Bolas didn't just release them for giggles because he could or wanted them free, and that there is some plan behind why he did so, just we haven't been told what it was yet.
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They didn't care that he was the savior of Fort Keff, the great hunter of Ondu, the champion of Kabira. To them, he was just another piece of flesh, a thing with life to be drained away.
Ugin was in the process of creating an entirely new hedron network when the hedron circle plan failed. He was in the process of doing something and was assuming Jace would follow the plan.
It is curious that Ugin didn't show up after plan A failed but I don't think much time passed between Kosi rising and the climatic end. A day? Two days? Zendikar is large and filled with enemies.
Also not knowing the consequences of something is a perfectly good reason to forewarn against something. We tell kids not to mix various household chemicals/cleaners not because we know the result of each possible mixture but because we don't know and the results could be dangerous.
Don't mess with Ugin lol, he's my fav along with Elspeth, Gideon and Sorin!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
And I would count that lock as flimsy if installer's enemy is Nicol Bolas level. Granted, every lock is flimsy when your enemy is Nicol Bolas, but in this case I would search for minimizing the consequences - like, training stoneforge mythics so in sufficient numbers they might serve as Nahiri replacement if something will happen to her. In any case, I would not put all my eggs in basket called Zendikar.
But even Bolas failed to completely break the lock, if Nissa had not sabotaged Sorin's attempt to repair the seal the titans would still be in their prison. I don't think it was flimsy at all. And Nahiri had followers to maintain the hedrons, but after her vanishing the tradition was also being lost as time passed.
I'd like to point out that Ugin had almost 5000 years between the time the Eldrazi were sealed and his fatal/near-fatal battle with Bolas on Tarkir. I'd call that plenty of time to study up.
Remember the age old adage for fiction: No one is dead until you see the body.
Considering we very specifically are seeing Eldrazi sized holes in the smoke, I'm leaning towards unintended consequences.
Let's wait until the story is finished before we make a final determination. Am I holding out false hope? Maybe. But they've been way to explicit about what a bad idea but burning the Titans is for me to believe that was it, problem solved in a neat bow.
I will be really upset if Ugin does not appear next story. It will be just incredibly inconsistent storytelling, and to me it is pretty clear that the titans are dead, honestly. Anything else looks like wishful thinking. I was wondering what the heck would Ugin be doing after all this time, and because of that I wrote another fanfic, featuring Ugin as main protagonist, here in the personal writing section (in case anyone is interested):
I would also like to add that, for some reason, I can't put the paragraphs properly because the "tab" button is not working for any of my posts. It would be helpfull if a moderator could give me a hint as to why.
Private Mod Note
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.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Usually I don’t say much anymore, for a number of reasons, but I had a couple of things that I really wanted to say.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
Oh boy, I didn't see this post of yours until I got home. I will say that I disagree with almost everything you said in regards to this story, with the exception of the last paragraph. That is funny, since it is your final conclusion. So, to get that out of the way first: yeah, the story could have been a lot worse, but that is definitely not something that I would look upon when seeking for positive aspects of a story, is it? I think the block as a whole was bad, with some good stories in it. The best stories (in a consensus here) usually involved legendary creatures (Noyan Dar, Drana, Tazri) and very few planeswalkers, that to me is a sign that this whole 'avengers assemble team' is a bad idea. There were some o-kayish stories with legendary creatures (Mina and Denn, Jori En) and some good planeswalkers stories (Jace and Jori, some of the very first Gideon stories). But that is about it.
People are not asking for deaths because they are all bloodthirsty murderers, but because the Eldrazi are one of the greatest threats of the multiverse and you have to get a feeling that everything is at stake. The plane, the people you love and care about, the important characters. There were very few moments when you actually felt something being at stake, come on. They lost their first battles, sure, so what? What did they lose? Nameless NPCs from their army? That does not transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers, and that is a terrible thing. What did their mistakes actually cost them? They didn't even had Ulamog released again due to a mistake of them, but due to a complete unpredicted element destroying their plan (Ob Nixilis), so where is the lesson here? Never give up? Sh** happens?
You are right about the fact that characters can grow in many ways, but that is not the point. We are not asking for deaths to have the characters grow, we are asking for it because it is what makes this whole scenario believable, it is what makes the Eldrazi a real multiversal threat. People die in wars as you said, and you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the Eldrazi ravage the land. Losing random red shirts is not the way to establish that, everyone knows it, this is "how to write a story 101". And besides, the quality of the writing was so poor at so many points that you're really pushing if you want us to believe that they could make the characters grow in any possible way. Take Kiora. She was completely destroyed by Kozilek, she had her pride and arrogance being her downfall and she learned NOTHING. Her posture BARELY changes, she still does what she thinks is right, the only difference between her pre-Kozi and after was the willingness to listen to Jace first, which is something that she should have had to begin with, since her first interaction with the Gatewatch was ridiculously over the top, angry hyperative teenager with 14 years old.
Finally, to the last of your points that I will adress: winning here doesn't make them powerful and incivible. Yes and no. It doesnt't make them invincible in the literal sense of the word, because we know there were a series of conveniences and absurdities that we had to accept to get to this point here (Nissa being the "chosen one" and using the power of Zendikar, Jace mastering the knowledge of the hedrons incredbly fast, Gideon tanking Ulamog, etc.). But it does make them invincible when you see the lengths that the writers are willing to go to make them win. Does it really matter if, on paper, they are just "powerful mages" when in truth Chandra released a fireball that killed two eldrazi titans? Does it really matter that Gideon has 'limits', but he can tank Ulamog, get tortured by Ob Nixilis and still have the stamina to stay alive and kicking? None of that makes sense, but it doesn't matter to the writers, because the protagonists have to shine and that is it. "Ah, but they had the help of factor A, B, C and D". Yeah, they did. And next time they won't, but there will be factor E, F, G, and H, and I bet everything is gonna be alright. This is terrible, terrible writing, and makes me really upset.
Zendikar should be destroyed not due to our bloodlust, but to make the Eldrazi become what they truly are: planar eating monstrosities. The fact that they didn't even consider this idea is a joke. People were first defending creative saying that it was a corporative decision that would never allow them to destroy Zendikar, but how naive we all were. It didn't even get to that. They just decided that the planar eating monstrosities losing to the newbies in their first time fighting together was a better, more believable story.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Usually I don’t say much anymore, for a number of reasons, but I had a couple of things that I really wanted to say.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
Oh boy, I didn't see this post of yours until I got home. I will say that I disagree with almost everything you said in regards to this story, with the exception of the last paragraph. That is funny, since it is your final conclusion. So, to get that out of the way first: yeah, the story could have been a lot worse, but that is definitely not something that I would look upon when seeking for positive aspects of a story, is it? I think the block as a whole was bad, with some good stories in it. The best stories (in a consensus here) usually involved legendary creatures (Noyan Dar, Drana, Tazri) and very few planeswalkers, that to me is a sign that this whole 'avengers assemble team' is a bad idea. There were some o-kayish stories with legendary creatures (Mina and Denn, Jori En) and some good planeswalkers stories (Jace and Jori, some of the very first Gideon stories). But that is about it.
People are not asking for deaths because they are all bloodthirsty murderers, but because the Eldrazi are one of the greatest threats of the multiverse and you have to get a feeling that everything is at stake. The plane, the people you love and care about, the important characters. There were very few moments when you actually felt something being at stake, come on. They lost their first battles, sure, so what? What did they lose? Nameless NPCs from their army? That does not transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers, and that is a terrible thing. What did their mistakes actually cost them? They didn't even had Ulamog released again due to a mistake of them, but due to a complete unpredicted element destroying their plan (Ob Nixilis), so where is the lesson here? Never give up? Sh** happens?
You are right about the fact that characters can grow in many ways, but that is not the point. We are not asking for deaths to have the characters grow, we are asking for it because it is what makes this whole scenario believable, it is what makes the Eldrazi a real multiversal threat. People die in wars as you said, and you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the Eldrazi ravage the land. Losing random red shirts is not the way to establish that, everyone knows it, this is "how to write a story 101". And besides, the quality of the writing was so poor at so many points that you're really pushing if you want us to believe that they could make the characters grow in any possible way. Take Kiora. She was completely destroyed by Kozilek, she had her pride and arrogance being her downfall and she learned NOTHING. Her posture BARELY changes, she still does what she thinks is right, the only difference between her pre-Kozi and after was the willingness to listen to Jace first, which is something that she should have had to begin with, since her first interaction with the Gatewatch was ridiculously over the top, angry hyperative teenager with 14 years old.
Finally, to the last of your points that I will adress: winning here doesn't make them powerful and incivible. Yes and no. It doesnt't make them invincible in the literal sense of the word, because we know there were a series of conveniences and absurdities that we had to accept to get to this point here (Nissa being the "chosen one" and using the power of Zendikar, Jace mastering the knowledge of the hedrons incredbly fast, Gideon tanking Ulamog, etc.). But it does make them invincible when you see the lengths that the writers are willing to go to make them win. Does it really matter if, on paper, they are just "powerful mages" when in truth Chandra released a fireball that killed two eldrazi titans? Does it really matter that Gideon has 'limits', but he can tank Ulamog, get tortured by Ob Nixilis and still have the stamina to stay alive and kicking? None of that makes sense, but it doesn't matter to the writers, because the protagonists have to shine and that is it. "Ah, but they had the help of factor A, B, C and D". Yeah, they did. And next time they won't, but there will be factor E, F, G, and H, and I bet everything is gonna be alright. This is terrible, terrible writing, and makes me really upset.
Zendikar should be destroyed not due to our bloodlust, but to make the Eldrazi become what they truly are: planar eating monstrosities. The fact that they didn't even consider this idea is a joke. People were first defending creative saying that it was a corporative decision that would never allow them to destroy Zendikar, but how naive we all were. It didn't even get to that. They just decided that the planar eating monstrosities losing to the newbies in their first time fighting together was a better, more believable story.
Obviously I don't agree with 90% of what you said, but I want to address a couple of points.
1) Just because YOU can't feel a sense of danger and sense of threat without seeing a corpse doesn't mean other people can't. I'm a guy who gets on the edge of his seat watching Disney/Pixar movies. I get a sense of threat just by the characters being in clearly dangerous situations. Same thing goes for the concept of "Killing nameless NPCs from the army not a way to transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers" is also only true for you (and obviously some number of others) but not everyone. I felt terrible when I read that story of Ob killing hundreds of people a second after he knocked the alignment off even though none had names. It can be accomplished if done right and presented in the right way.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
And Lastly:
3) "Zendikar should be destroyed... to make the eldrazi become what they are Planar eating monstrosities." Um, they weren't? Like I'm really getting tired of the following incredibly inaccurate sentiment: The eldrazi did nothing, they weren't a threat. The Eldrazi destroyed most of the plane. 90% or more of the population is dead. The land is drained and twisted into something that the survivors barely recognize, if at all. How is that nothing? How is that ineffectual? Hitler killed something like 90% of the Jewish population in WW2. Was he not a threat because he didn't kill all of them? So what if they didn't destroy the plane entirely? It was well within their capability to do so. I understand that, I don't know why others can't. I'd rather see the heroes succeed here than wait until most everything I like is destroyed.
I get it. Some people like to see MASSIVE suffering in their stories. Others don't find that fun or enjoyable. Just because you need certain things to be in a story in order for it to be good or memorable to you does not mean that is the only way to accomplish it and certainly doesn't mean it is what everyone wants to see, even in a story with "planet eating monstrosities."
Just so were clear, because I've been accused of this before: I'm not saying these things can't be in stories period. Nor am I saying that stories that have those things can't be very good. I am just saying that they are not the only way to accomplish what people feel was not accomplished in this block. There are other ways and, in some cases, there are better ways.
EDIT: I want to all of the above that intent is important too. If the intent of a story is to make people sad over the horrible reality of war, then okay major character death is important and almost absolutely required. (I say almost cause I like to allow other possibilities.) But if the intent of your story is just to entertain with fantasy action, than character death is not needed. It can be used, possibly to great effect, but not a requirement. There are many ways to accomplish that goal.
Halimar is a basin so I imagine there was still water in it after Sea Gate was broken. Kiora had also been swishing water hither and thither in the area so it may well have refilled some. It was indeed over the top but I think they wanted to demonstrate the lengths to which Kiora would go.
If there has been written "Kiora had emptied the whole Halimar basin", I would have no problem. But the sentence says "Kiora had emptied the entire Halimar Sea
The only part that confused me was what was Kiora doing with Chandra? Did she start to help pull Chandra to her feet then drop her? That part was confusingly written.
I think that she wanted to help Chandra, but when she was pulling her up, Chandra winced because of the back pain and Kiora let go of her hand.
Ajduk: do you know what the term Deus Ex Machine means? The seeds are not in any way that. We've known about them for nearly the entirety of the story. we know that Nissa had every intent of using them on Zendikar. Deus Ex machina has no prior set up.
Obviously not. Too busy repeating that "he was right from the moment Fall of the Titans was spoiled", anyway.
Speaking of the seeds, I think that Nissa will just use them to regrow the lost species of plants from Bala Ged anew.
They still have chance to make it interesting next week, and I really hope they do.
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Obviously I don't agree with 90% of what you said, but I want to address a couple of points.
1) Just because YOU can't feel a sense of danger and sense of threat without seeing a corpse doesn't mean other people can't. I'm a guy who gets on the edge of his seat watching Disney/Pixar movies. I get a sense of threat just by the characters being in clearly dangerous situations. Same thing goes for the concept of "Killing nameless NPCs from the army not a way to transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers" is also only true for you (and obviously some number of others) but not everyone. I felt terrible when I read that story of Ob killing hundreds of people a second after he knocked the alignment off even though none had names. It can be accomplished if done right and presented in the right way.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
And Lastly:
3) "Zendikar should be destroyed... to make the eldrazi become what they are Planar eating monstrosities." Um, they weren't? Like I'm really getting tired of the following incredibly inaccurate sentiment: The eldrazi did nothing, they weren't a threat. The Eldrazi destroyed most of the plane. 90% or more of the population is dead. The land is drained and twisted into something that the survivors barely recognize, if at all. How is that nothing? How is that ineffectual? Hitler killed something like 90% of the Jewish population in WW2. Was he not a threat because he didn't kill all of them? So what if they didn't destroy the plane entirely? It was well within their capability to do so. I understand that, I don't know why others can't. I'd rather see the heroes succeed here than wait until most everything I like is destroyed.
I get it. Some people like to see MASSIVE suffering in their stories. Others don't find that fun or enjoyable. Just because you need certain things to be in a story in order for it to be good or memorable to you does not mean that is the only way to accomplish it and certainly doesn't mean it is what everyone wants to see, even in a story with "planet eating monstrosities."
Just so were clear, because I've been accused of this before: I'm not saying these things can't be in stories period. Nor am I saying that stories that have those things can't be very good. I am just saying that they are not the only way to accomplish what people feel was not accomplished in this block. There are other ways and, in some cases, there are better ways.
1) I'm impressed that you can feel terrible due to death of nameless zendikari, honestly. People can get on the edge of their seats for scenes that are not related to death/dying or anything, but this BFZ story barely had moments like that for me. I suppose when Noyan Dar was almost killed for one of the Kozilek spawn that turned the roil against the roilmages was one such moment for me. One not related to death/dying (sort of) was when Jori En almost got stuck trying to get to the place where Kiora's bident was. That was tense. But these moments were very few.
2) I think I wasn't clear. What is storytelling 101 is 'not establish your threat by having it killing random folk'. That just serves one purpose: to show that the character is evil and capable of killing, but that doesn't evoke an emotional response in the readers yet (or most readers, I suppose). The threat has to kill someone that matters in the world described, because that taps into an emotional connection. People here thought Kozilek was more menacing than Ulamog. One of the reasons why, I assure you, is because Kozilek killed Lorthos right out of the bat. Lorthos was not a faceless character, even if he didn't have any exposition before in the story, he was known to the readers. Ulamog didn't directly kill anyone important, therefore he didn't seem as threatening.
3) Thank Heliod that they did something at least! But they didn't do what they're suppose to: destroy planes. They didn't finish the job. They ravaged Zendikar, sure, the plane might take years to recover, sure, but that doesn't matter in the long run. We are not going to revisit Zendikar soon, we are not going to stay and see it 'recovering' from the destruction, we may see some residual damage the next time, but that is far from the same of having the plane destroyed altogether. That is what the eldrazi are about, and that is what they didn't do.
This story started the wrong way and it had some moments where it seemed that it could correct its course, but in the end it was not good. That is because the cycle of 'showing why we should care', 'establishing the threats', 'defeating the threats' was not well accomplished at all. Anyhow, I understand your opinion might differ in some aspects, but a lot of people here are not asking for deaths for the sake of deaths. There is a purpose behind it, and that is why I addressed your original post.
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I'd echo some of what Ashiok said; it's not so much the scale of what happened in the story that matters, but the contrivances to make sure the good guys won. I have no reason now to believe the Gatewatch are in any real danger in the future, so all tension is lost from the tale. Edge-of-the-seat moments have to keep you guessing: will they get through this or won't they? The BFZ/OGW story made it clear that yep - they'll get through it, no matter the seeming impossibility. When you've just emerged from defeating one two of the most terrifyingly unscratchable entities in the Magic universe without any real sense of damage or loss (yes, there were losses, but they were borne by numbers, not people, and all those numbers will be meaningless by the time we return), what else is there left to feel threatened by? No matter how dire a situation we might see the Gatewatch get into in the future, the nagging insistence will be there that it doesn't matter - they'll be fine, because the writers not only can, but probably will, just conjure their salvation from nothing.
ETA: I do hope this story has just been a glitch, caused by the unexpected truncation of the time for its telling. This is, after all, the same Creative team that gave us Elspeth's death in Theros, and the fall of Mirrodin to the Phyrexians. It's not like they haven't shown in the past that they are prepared to let the good guys fail, and it's those previous darker endings that have allowed us to feel the tension at all. But there is the unpleasant whiff of corporateness about this new era of a Gatewatch and a lurking movie-script; the suspicion that marketable IP is more valuable than good narrative. That may not be unreasonable for a universe that exists to sell cards, not win writing awards, but it doesn't make it any more palatable to those of us who get a kick from the tale.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
I agree with you, but I feel you'd agree with me when I say the writers didn't really deliver on any other method either. I feel they could have, if the readers felt more invested in characters not obviously protected by plot armor. None of the Origins Planeswalkers were in any personal danger (except maybe from Ob) so that sense had to come from the native Zendikari. This is what helped make Tazri's and Drana's stories good. Tazri was in very real and very legitimate danger, and Drana had a strong connection with the people following her which were also seriously threatened. Drana also had the benefit of being a leader in a much more difficult scenario than Gideon's. The story focused on the (protected) Planeswalkers though, so that sense of danger was less present.
As a side note, I know Nissa is a Zendikari but she really didn't feel like one. Other than that one occasion towards the beginning, she didn't seem to have any empathy towards the people of Zendikar and any time her past on the plane was brought up it was always in the context of her old self/personal demons.
perhaps the whole BFZ story fell flat because nearly the whole main story was revealed in the cards, fatpack booklet and art book. there's little unknown to get excited about. kind of like when the trailer shows what the whole movie is about and spoils the most exciting scenes.
next story is likely fresh, so let's see if that difference makes reading the next UR more pleasant than most past episodes.
perhaps the whole BFZ story fell flat because nearly the whole main story was revealed in the cards, fatpack booklet and art book. there's little unknown to get excited about. kind of like when the trailer shows what the whole movie is about and spoils the most exciting scenes.
next story is likely fresh, so let's see if that difference makes reading the next UR more pleasant than most past episodes.
Hell we knew the Gatewatch won as far back as PAX before BFZ even came out. I think the story fell flat with a lot of people because of two reasons.
1) people assuming they knew exactly what was going to happen through the whole story because of the various non-UR methods by which the story was shown.
2) People wanting their own story to be written instead of the one WotC wanted to tell.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that this has been an amazing story but I do think that it has been decent. Not losing any major characters, not losing the plane none of those are inherently better stories than the one that has been told. Just because you sickos can't draw emotional impact from genocide doesn't mean that the story that has been told is a bad one. There were some moments that were hard to believe and the pacing in the early portions could have been better but overall I enjoyed the story. And that has nothing to do with my standards.
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Guess getting owned by Thassa and Kozilek wasn't enough to give Kiora any real dimension. She had potential to become something more, but just like this entire BFZ story, it will not be realized. I really can't believe she even has the heart to wield that Bident after how she failed.
The mystery of the ending was actually good. But what about Zendikar recovering its mana, and draining the titans? Well, one story left to wait for and see. I can just imagine it'll be Beyer again, or even better, Kreines delivering the cherry on top of this all.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
The only part that confused me was what was Kiora doing with Chandra? Did she start to help pull Chandra to her feet then drop her? That part was confusingly written.
Ajduk: do you know what the term Deus Ex Machine means? The seeds are not in any way that. We've known about them for nearly the entirety of the story. we know that Nissa had every intent of using them on Zendikar. Deus Ex machina has no prior set up.
For the same reason that fifteen squirrels shouldn't be able to kill Emrakul in the story and why Gideon shouldn't be able to just equip ten swords to kill Ulamog and survive.
The scale and quality of things/spells/events in the card game and the story will always be different and quite frankly, if it is that easy to counter almost every spell, no matter how supposedly powerful it is, then Jace has to do nothing but tap 1UU (or UU if he studied some old spells) all day and be done with it. Remember that in the story, mages don't draw cards and have every spell at their disposal all the time. If he would always be able to counter everything that isn't specifically uncounterable there would be no story wherever Jace is around.
It is especially baffling that it comes from Maro, who used to be a screenwriter and is supposed to have some experience in writing stories? I mean, you don't start a story with a character solving all issues in the first five minutes and then doing nothing. One of the basic arcs for heroes is that they fail at something at the very beginning, then they do stuff in the middle to prepare them for the final fight, which will then result at the end in them winning over whatever they lost to at the beginning. Like seriously, have the gatewatch lose their first fight and Zendikar (instant emotional impact and motivation), then have several blocks (and stories!) dedicated to them helping out other planes and recruiting new members until at the end of the gatewatch story arc they take on the Eldrazi again, now a lot more experienced and prepared.
Also, a question about Zendikar and mana. The Eldrazi were feeding on the plane for how long now? Huge swathes of the plane are manaless wastes, if not most of it. Then what mana is left to the plane is channeled by Nissa through Chandra to obliterate the Eldrazi overlay with fire. Fire consumes. You don't get that power back after you burn it. And based on the description, it took a ton of power to slam the Eldrazi. So how much mana can the plane possibly still have? And how can it get more? There's that one plane in Planechase, I think, that was totally dead, with no mana. Does mana on a plane just spontaneously recreate itself? Does Nissa's sigil create more? How?
Sorry for any typos, on mobile.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
EPISODE 10: ZENDIKAR RESURGENT
The four Planeswalkers who came together to battle the Eldrazi have won! In destroying the titans Ulamog and Kozilek, they succeeded in pulling the entire world of Zendikar back from the brink of extinction. Now, in the aftermath of their victory, Gideon, Jace, Chandra, and Nissa must decide what will come next.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Dem comatose people slacking off and not doing anything productive. *shakes fist*
Flimsy? It was actually a very good lock that was only cracked, because a puppet master carefully engineered a scenario in which three planeswalkers congregated at a secret location and used one specific kind of spell that is actually somewhat unique in the multiverse. This wasn't poor luck, this was Bolas directly manipulating the events.
Plus, it wasn't the only lock, it was one of many.
And additionally it probably could have been reinstalled quickly, if it weren't for the fact that Nahiri went missing. (A pretty cool plot point would have been that the mending made Nahiri die of old age, which would have meant that Ugin's plan to rebuild the lock doesn't work because of the mending, which nobody in their time could really have foreseen, at all.)
Again, being almost dead and not conscious sure can be a bummer sometimes.
"Kids, don't play with fire.
No seriously, I mean it.
Put down those matches, I don't want anything bad happening.
Goddamnit what is wrong with you kids?"
---> House burns down and Ugin is to blame. This logic.
Lol that part was confusing to me too, and made me laugh, the way Doug wrote it. I believe what happens is as Chandra is getting up, her back is broken which causes her to cry out from the pain (as is what happens when you try to move people with broken bones), and it prompts Kiora to let her back down. But Doug wrote it like "Kiora released her and let her lie" or something to that effect. Which made me imagine Kiora just letting go when Chandra was halfway up.
And I would count that lock as flimsy if installer's enemy is Nicol Bolas level. Granted, every lock is flimsy when your enemy is Nicol Bolas, but in this case I would search for minimizing the consequences - like, training stoneforge mythics so in sufficient numbers they might serve as Nahiri replacement if something will happen to her. In any case, I would not put all my eggs in basket called Zendikar.
About warnings: it's one thing saying "don't do that, because so and so will happen" when recipient is in no danger, and another is saying "don't try this even as the very last resort to save the whole world, because something bad might happen" - especially when you have several millenia to find out the danger.
If I recall correctly, they actually addressed this in Revelation at the Eye. When criticized by Jace on how his lock had been so easily undone, Ugin corrects him that he was actually manipulated purposefully into doing so, and that Ugin felt the lock was otherwise safe because he thought no one one in their right mind, if they did find out how to unseal them and what "them" actually was, would want them from free in the multiverse. Even now we know that Bolas didn't just release them for giggles because he could or wanted them free, and that there is some plan behind why he did so, just we haven't been told what it was yet.
But the people behind the barrier knew.
It is curious that Ugin didn't show up after plan A failed but I don't think much time passed between Kosi rising and the climatic end. A day? Two days? Zendikar is large and filled with enemies.
Also not knowing the consequences of something is a perfectly good reason to forewarn against something. We tell kids not to mix various household chemicals/cleaners not because we know the result of each possible mixture but because we don't know and the results could be dangerous.
Don't mess with Ugin lol, he's my fav along with Elspeth, Gideon and Sorin!
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
But even Bolas failed to completely break the lock, if Nissa had not sabotaged Sorin's attempt to repair the seal the titans would still be in their prison. I don't think it was flimsy at all. And Nahiri had followers to maintain the hedrons, but after her vanishing the tradition was also being lost as time passed.
Considering we very specifically are seeing Eldrazi sized holes in the smoke, I'm leaning towards unintended consequences.
Let's wait until the story is finished before we make a final determination. Am I holding out false hope? Maybe. But they've been way to explicit about what a bad idea but burning the Titans is for me to believe that was it, problem solved in a neat bow.
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I would also like to add that, for some reason, I can't put the paragraphs properly because the "tab" button is not working for any of my posts. It would be helpfull if a moderator could give me a hint as to why.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
People are not asking for deaths because they are all bloodthirsty murderers, but because the Eldrazi are one of the greatest threats of the multiverse and you have to get a feeling that everything is at stake. The plane, the people you love and care about, the important characters. There were very few moments when you actually felt something being at stake, come on. They lost their first battles, sure, so what? What did they lose? Nameless NPCs from their army? That does not transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers, and that is a terrible thing. What did their mistakes actually cost them? They didn't even had Ulamog released again due to a mistake of them, but due to a complete unpredicted element destroying their plan (Ob Nixilis), so where is the lesson here? Never give up? Sh** happens?
You are right about the fact that characters can grow in many ways, but that is not the point. We are not asking for deaths to have the characters grow, we are asking for it because it is what makes this whole scenario believable, it is what makes the Eldrazi a real multiversal threat. People die in wars as you said, and you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the Eldrazi ravage the land. Losing random red shirts is not the way to establish that, everyone knows it, this is "how to write a story 101". And besides, the quality of the writing was so poor at so many points that you're really pushing if you want us to believe that they could make the characters grow in any possible way. Take Kiora. She was completely destroyed by Kozilek, she had her pride and arrogance being her downfall and she learned NOTHING. Her posture BARELY changes, she still does what she thinks is right, the only difference between her pre-Kozi and after was the willingness to listen to Jace first, which is something that she should have had to begin with, since her first interaction with the Gatewatch was ridiculously over the top, angry hyperative teenager with 14 years old.
Finally, to the last of your points that I will adress: winning here doesn't make them powerful and incivible. Yes and no. It doesnt't make them invincible in the literal sense of the word, because we know there were a series of conveniences and absurdities that we had to accept to get to this point here (Nissa being the "chosen one" and using the power of Zendikar, Jace mastering the knowledge of the hedrons incredbly fast, Gideon tanking Ulamog, etc.). But it does make them invincible when you see the lengths that the writers are willing to go to make them win. Does it really matter if, on paper, they are just "powerful mages" when in truth Chandra released a fireball that killed two eldrazi titans? Does it really matter that Gideon has 'limits', but he can tank Ulamog, get tortured by Ob Nixilis and still have the stamina to stay alive and kicking? None of that makes sense, but it doesn't matter to the writers, because the protagonists have to shine and that is it. "Ah, but they had the help of factor A, B, C and D". Yeah, they did. And next time they won't, but there will be factor E, F, G, and H, and I bet everything is gonna be alright. This is terrible, terrible writing, and makes me really upset.
Zendikar should be destroyed not due to our bloodlust, but to make the Eldrazi become what they truly are: planar eating monstrosities. The fact that they didn't even consider this idea is a joke. People were first defending creative saying that it was a corporative decision that would never allow them to destroy Zendikar, but how naive we all were. It didn't even get to that. They just decided that the planar eating monstrosities losing to the newbies in their first time fighting together was a better, more believable story.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Obviously I don't agree with 90% of what you said, but I want to address a couple of points.
1) Just because YOU can't feel a sense of danger and sense of threat without seeing a corpse doesn't mean other people can't. I'm a guy who gets on the edge of his seat watching Disney/Pixar movies. I get a sense of threat just by the characters being in clearly dangerous situations. Same thing goes for the concept of "Killing nameless NPCs from the army not a way to transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers" is also only true for you (and obviously some number of others) but not everyone. I felt terrible when I read that story of Ob killing hundreds of people a second after he knocked the alignment off even though none had names. It can be accomplished if done right and presented in the right way.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
And Lastly:
3) "Zendikar should be destroyed... to make the eldrazi become what they are Planar eating monstrosities." Um, they weren't? Like I'm really getting tired of the following incredibly inaccurate sentiment: The eldrazi did nothing, they weren't a threat. The Eldrazi destroyed most of the plane. 90% or more of the population is dead. The land is drained and twisted into something that the survivors barely recognize, if at all. How is that nothing? How is that ineffectual? Hitler killed something like 90% of the Jewish population in WW2. Was he not a threat because he didn't kill all of them? So what if they didn't destroy the plane entirely? It was well within their capability to do so. I understand that, I don't know why others can't. I'd rather see the heroes succeed here than wait until most everything I like is destroyed.
I get it. Some people like to see MASSIVE suffering in their stories. Others don't find that fun or enjoyable. Just because you need certain things to be in a story in order for it to be good or memorable to you does not mean that is the only way to accomplish it and certainly doesn't mean it is what everyone wants to see, even in a story with "planet eating monstrosities."
Just so were clear, because I've been accused of this before: I'm not saying these things can't be in stories period. Nor am I saying that stories that have those things can't be very good. I am just saying that they are not the only way to accomplish what people feel was not accomplished in this block. There are other ways and, in some cases, there are better ways.
EDIT: I want to all of the above that intent is important too. If the intent of a story is to make people sad over the horrible reality of war, then okay major character death is important and almost absolutely required. (I say almost cause I like to allow other possibilities.) But if the intent of your story is just to entertain with fantasy action, than character death is not needed. It can be used, possibly to great effect, but not a requirement. There are many ways to accomplish that goal.
If there has been written "Kiora had emptied the whole Halimar basin", I would have no problem. But the sentence says "Kiora had emptied the entire Halimar Sea
I think that she wanted to help Chandra, but when she was pulling her up, Chandra winced because of the back pain and Kiora let go of her hand.
Obviously not. Too busy repeating that "he was right from the moment Fall of the Titans was spoiled", anyway.
Speaking of the seeds, I think that Nissa will just use them to regrow the lost species of plants from Bala Ged anew.
They still have chance to make it interesting next week, and I really hope they do.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
2) I think I wasn't clear. What is storytelling 101 is 'not establish your threat by having it killing random folk'. That just serves one purpose: to show that the character is evil and capable of killing, but that doesn't evoke an emotional response in the readers yet (or most readers, I suppose). The threat has to kill someone that matters in the world described, because that taps into an emotional connection. People here thought Kozilek was more menacing than Ulamog. One of the reasons why, I assure you, is because Kozilek killed Lorthos right out of the bat. Lorthos was not a faceless character, even if he didn't have any exposition before in the story, he was known to the readers. Ulamog didn't directly kill anyone important, therefore he didn't seem as threatening.
3) Thank Heliod that they did something at least! But they didn't do what they're suppose to: destroy planes. They didn't finish the job. They ravaged Zendikar, sure, the plane might take years to recover, sure, but that doesn't matter in the long run. We are not going to revisit Zendikar soon, we are not going to stay and see it 'recovering' from the destruction, we may see some residual damage the next time, but that is far from the same of having the plane destroyed altogether. That is what the eldrazi are about, and that is what they didn't do.
This story started the wrong way and it had some moments where it seemed that it could correct its course, but in the end it was not good. That is because the cycle of 'showing why we should care', 'establishing the threats', 'defeating the threats' was not well accomplished at all. Anyhow, I understand your opinion might differ in some aspects, but a lot of people here are not asking for deaths for the sake of deaths. There is a purpose behind it, and that is why I addressed your original post.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
onetwo of the most terrifyingly unscratchable entities in the Magic universe without any real sense of damage or loss (yes, there were losses, but they were borne by numbers, not people, and all those numbers will be meaningless by the time we return), what else is there left to feel threatened by? No matter how dire a situation we might see the Gatewatch get into in the future, the nagging insistence will be there that it doesn't matter - they'll be fine, because the writers not only can, but probably will, just conjure their salvation from nothing.ETA: I do hope this story has just been a glitch, caused by the unexpected truncation of the time for its telling. This is, after all, the same Creative team that gave us Elspeth's death in Theros, and the fall of Mirrodin to the Phyrexians. It's not like they haven't shown in the past that they are prepared to let the good guys fail, and it's those previous darker endings that have allowed us to feel the tension at all. But there is the unpleasant whiff of corporateness about this new era of a Gatewatch and a lurking movie-script; the suspicion that marketable IP is more valuable than good narrative. That may not be unreasonable for a universe that exists to sell cards, not win writing awards, but it doesn't make it any more palatable to those of us who get a kick from the tale.
As a side note, I know Nissa is a Zendikari but she really didn't feel like one. Other than that one occasion towards the beginning, she didn't seem to have any empathy towards the people of Zendikar and any time her past on the plane was brought up it was always in the context of her old self/personal demons.
next story is likely fresh, so let's see if that difference makes reading the next UR more pleasant than most past episodes.
Hell we knew the Gatewatch won as far back as PAX before BFZ even came out. I think the story fell flat with a lot of people because of two reasons.
1) people assuming they knew exactly what was going to happen through the whole story because of the various non-UR methods by which the story was shown.
2) People wanting their own story to be written instead of the one WotC wanted to tell.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that this has been an amazing story but I do think that it has been decent. Not losing any major characters, not losing the plane none of those are inherently better stories than the one that has been told. Just because you sickos can't draw emotional impact from genocide doesn't mean that the story that has been told is a bad one. There were some moments that were hard to believe and the pacing in the early portions could have been better but overall I enjoyed the story. And that has nothing to do with my standards.