I think the card vs. card evidence is good:
Ugin's first ability doesn't kill Bolas, but Bolas' first ability does kill Ugin.
Doesn't even matter which is played first, Bolas wins everytime.
Plus, Ugin's whole 1,000 year plan or whatever to lockdown the Eldrazi was foiled by Bolas, and Bolas seems to be pulling all the strings....
We need Yawgmoth to rejoin the fray if we wanna talk real power.
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True enough, but I'm sure the Eldrazi don't age and can't die/be destroyed (at least using the information we have now). That'd be immortality in my book.
True enough, but I'm sure the Eldrazi don't age and can't die/be destroyed (at least using the information we have now). That'd be immortality in my book.
Well, to further elaborate, the Eldrazi don't actually have physical form, so there is no appropriate metric by which we could measure if they age or not.
But that's part of their mystique, in that they exist primarily outside our experiences and average context.
I wonder what would happen if Xenegos could have spread his devotion over multiple planes?
I think the Eldrazi are the most powerful, they probably had greater power in their incorporeal form but when they became trapped in physical bodies they lost some the raw power, however I believe they became more DANGEROUS after they gained bodies. I believe this due to the fact that some the Eldrazi in the brood lineages have specific purposes (It that Betrays turns the fallen enemies into faithful servants and the titans seem to be able to transform living enemies into Eldrazi through Eldrazi conscription.) I don't think the Eldrazi are as unintelligent most seem to think.
I wonder what would happen if Xenegos could have spread his devotion over multiple planes?
Very likely nothing. It was the way that the plane interacted with Nyx that generated the gods, so anything beyond the planar veil probably wouldn't interact with Nyx either, or else we'd have substantially different things happening with Nyx.
I don't think the Eldrazi are as unintelligent most seem to think.
It isn't that they are unintelligent. It's that they are alien.
In raw power level the eldrazi seem to be biggest threat on the block.
For intelligent manipulation, Bolas is by far. Also no-one has survived the effects of Bolas' mind touch. *Ugin managed to fire off a breath weapon afterwards, but the fight is already over. And Bolas hasn't even done much*. He conspired to set the eldrazi free, so hes either desperate to create a distraction for his enemies, or totally unafraid of them (*the eldrazi*).
Bolas physically spanks ugin, who calls for help from the lesser dragons of tarkir. Bolas *proxy casts insurrection through Yasova*, then laughs while Ugin struggles to keep up. The exact details of the ensuing beat down are lost in sarkhans fall, but the worst we see Bolas doing is (Sarkhan saw the effort in Bolas's face).
So a walker powerful enough to design the prison for the eldrazi gave Bolas a sweaty forehead, for a moment.
The theros gods have no power outside of theros, so dont make a very good comparative metric.
Bolas insurrection's all of them, then just to really drive the point home, uses his touch to turn ugin's brain into an etch-a-sketch, before unleashing the rest of his spells. Ass kicking.
Well... not quite. Yasova cast the Insurrection spell, but Bolas was smart enough to have her in the right place to do it if needed.
Gotta hand it to his ability to plan.
Well now that it's know Ugin tried to ultimate against Bolas, but was thwarted by his cunning. Bolas won; so long as he wins, it doesn't matter what methods were used. Also, using others to fight makes it so that he can hide his trump card/secret move/ultimate. The lesser your opponents know about you the better.
Judging on that and how many he manipulated. Bolas seems to be always a few steps ahead of his adversaries. I think together (his power) with his genius makes him the most powerful entity alive.
Perhaps Bolas feels that he can control the Eldrazi (at least indirectly) to the point it aids his schemes while these Eldrazi distracts his foes. He could find a way to get rid of them when he regains his lost power.
Is it also plausible that Bolas taught Yasova how to Threaten?
Well now that it's know Ugin tried to ultimate against Bolas, but was thwarted by his cunning. Bolas won; so long as he wins, it doesn't matter what methods were used. Also, using others to fight makes it so that he can hide his trump card/secret move/ultimate. The lesser your opponents know about you the better.
Judging on that and how many he manipulated. Bolas seems to be always a few steps ahead of his adversaries. I think together (his power) with his genius makes him the most powerful entity alive.
Perhaps Bolas feels that he can control the Eldrazi (at least indirectly) to the point it aids his schemes while these Eldrazi distracts his foes. He could find a way to get rid of them when he regains his lost power.
Is it also plausible that Bolas taught Yasova how to Threaten?
If you take it from the cards, it's highly possible - Yasova's ability requires the colors that are Bolas' Forte.
That said, I doubt Bolas would be able to take down the Eldrazi even if he regains all of his lost power. I know his fight with Ugin is quite a bad comparison because of dragons and insurrections, but it seemed that he outedges Ugin by a bit only, because pre-insurrection the mere mortal dragons were enough to change to tide in the battle, so unless his edge then outpowers oldwalkers Sorin and Nahiri, he wouldn't stand a chance against the Eldrazi - he can't touch them, and even if he can there's probably no mind to destroy, and anything in range of the Eldrazi either loses their mind or just weakens to nothing.
EDIT: In addition, there's a possibility that two of the Eldrazi have already re-ascended above mana already.
but it seemed that he outedges Ugin by a bit only, because pre-insurrection the mere mortal dragons were enough to change to tide in the battle
That's a bit misleading because the dragons hadn't actually entered the battle when they were subverted. Ugin called to them, but they hadn't actually contributed anything yet. They were amassing when Yasova intervened.
so unless his edge then outpowers oldwalkers Sorin and Nahiri, he wouldn't stand a chance against the Eldrazi
In fairness, he has been described on several occasions as THE most powerful walker likely to have ever existed so...
At least two of the Eldrazi have already broke off Ugin's Colorless Mana Infusion, so they have effectively transcended mana again.
Maybe. Too early to call right now. They haven't been seen, but that doesn't mean they are gone.
but it seemed that he outedges Ugin by a bit only, because pre-insurrection the mere mortal dragons were enough to change to tide in the battle
That's a bit misleading because the dragons hadn't actually entered the battle when they were subverted. Ugin called to them, but they hadn't actually contributed anything yet. They were amassing when Yasova intervened.
so unless his edge then outpowers oldwalkers Sorin and Nahiri, he wouldn't stand a chance against the Eldrazi
In fairness, he has been described on several occasions as THE most powerful walker likely to have ever existed so...
At least two of the Eldrazi have already broke off Ugin's Colorless Mana Infusion, so they have effectively transcended mana again.
Maybe. Too early to call right now. They haven't been seen, but that doesn't mean they are gone.
Excuse my edits in the original post, apparently I was editing while you were responding.
Okay, I didn't exactly memorize the UR article, so yeah, the dragons may or may not have turned to tide.
Also in fairness, most powerful doesn't indicate the power levels between him and the second-most powerful, for all we know Bolas could lose to the "Second most-powerful planeswalker that ever existed (whoever it may be)" if someone else assisted with a Hornet Sting. And on top of that, we don't even know whether the weakest Eldrazi is stronger than the strongest planeswalker, which is a possibility as long as nothing is stated for now.
Was it mentioned that the Eldrazi actually never stop eating as long as they weren't in the likes of sealed (I vaguely remembered something along the lines) and only leave when a plane is completely devoured of mana? Like you've said, we can't tell if they left because we don't know who hasn't seen the Eldrazi in ages - was it the plane itself as a whole?
Sometimes I think WotC needs to line up the WorldSouls (or their energy equivalents) and tell us them in sequenced power-levels, everything relating to the Eldrazi and partially with Bolas seems to place them all over the place.
Was it mentioned that the Eldrazi actually never stop eating as long as they weren't in the likes of sealed (I vaguely remembered something along the lines) and only leave when a plane is completely devoured of mana? Like you've said, we can't tell if they left because we don't know who hasn't seen the Eldrazi in ages - was it the plane itself as a whole?
"eating" is... kind of a broad term for the Eldrazi, but everything we have indicates that they don't wander off before they've wrecked the buffet table.
As to who had seen the Eldrazi, it was just rumors that the other two hadn't been seen in a while.
Oldwalkers couldn't deal (properly) with the Eldrazi, it took 3 of them just to seal them. No planeswalker alive is close to Oldwalker power (Bolas is probably close to one of the weaker oldwalker before). Eldrazi > everything alive right now.
What he is saying is that no walker alive has any power close to what they had before the mending, except maybe Bolas (as an Elder Dragon) and maybe Ugin (although we don't know how much power post-mending Ugin has). Sorin might be the second oldest next to Bolas but he isn't anywhere close to Bolas power.
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What he is saying is that no walker alive has any power close to what they had before the mending, except maybe Bolas (as an Elder Dragon) and maybe Ugin (although we don't know how much power post-mending Ugin has). Sorin might be the second oldest next to Bolas but he isn't anywhere close to Bolas power.
Yeah, with Bolas, it's... a very unique circumstance.
Elder Dragons were said to be nearly as powerful as oldwalkers at the height of their power. What that meant for Bolas is hard to directly say, but it might have been an exponential result. We really aren't sure what kind of boost nonhumanoids got from being walkers.
What he is saying is that no walker alive has any power close to what they had before the mending, except maybe Bolas (as an Elder Dragon) and maybe Ugin (although we don't know how much power post-mending Ugin has). Sorin might be the second oldest next to Bolas but he isn't anywhere close to Bolas power.
Yeah, with Bolas, it's... a very unique circumstance.
Elder Dragons were said to be nearly as powerful as oldwalkers at the height of their power. What that meant for Bolas is hard to directly say, but it might have been an exponential result. We really aren't sure what kind of boost nonhumanoids got from being walkers.
Well he got some of the immortality/youth benefits since Bolas was starting to feel his age during the start of the Alara block.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Oh and (as far as I can tell) the older of oldest to youngest it goes; Bolas-Ugin-Karn-Sorin-Liliana, Nahiri, Ob and the other old walkers around then.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Oh and (as far as I can tell) the older of oldest to youngest it goes; Bolas-Ugin-Karn-Sorin-Liliana, Nahiri, Ob and the other old walkers around then.
Afraid your order is a little out of order.
Bolas
Ugin?
Sorin
Nahiri?
Ob?
Karn
Liliana
Karn is only a little over 1000, far far younger than almost everyone else on that list with the exception of Liliana and potentially Ob (but we don't really know anything about Ob) Nahiri and Ugin are both at LEAST as old Sorin, but I think Ugin has a better chance of being older, and Nahiri just strikes me as younger than Sorin.
My bad I misread the date for Karn and Sorin on the wiki, I thought Karn was older. And I wasn't very clear I lumped Lilian ,Nahiri and Ob all together in that list.
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UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
You can argue that the Eldrazi are, as it is unknown if they can actually be destroyed or not.
Ugin's first ability doesn't kill Bolas, but Bolas' first ability does kill Ugin.
Doesn't even matter which is played first, Bolas wins everytime.
Plus, Ugin's whole 1,000 year plan or whatever to lockdown the Eldrazi was foiled by Bolas, and Bolas seems to be pulling all the strings....
We need Yawgmoth to rejoin the fray if we wanna talk real power.
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True enough, but I'm sure the Eldrazi don't age and can't die/be destroyed (at least using the information we have now). That'd be immortality in my book.
Well, to further elaborate, the Eldrazi don't actually have physical form, so there is no appropriate metric by which we could measure if they age or not.
But that's part of their mystique, in that they exist primarily outside our experiences and average context.
I think the Eldrazi are the most powerful, they probably had greater power in their incorporeal form but when they became trapped in physical bodies they lost some the raw power, however I believe they became more DANGEROUS after they gained bodies. I believe this due to the fact that some the Eldrazi in the brood lineages have specific purposes (It that Betrays turns the fallen enemies into faithful servants and the titans seem to be able to transform living enemies into Eldrazi through Eldrazi conscription.) I don't think the Eldrazi are as unintelligent most seem to think.
It isn't that they are unintelligent. It's that they are alien.
For intelligent manipulation, Bolas is by far. Also no-one has survived the effects of Bolas' mind touch. *Ugin managed to fire off a breath weapon afterwards, but the fight is already over. And Bolas hasn't even done much*. He conspired to set the eldrazi free, so hes either desperate to create a distraction for his enemies, or totally unafraid of them (*the eldrazi*).
The theros gods have no power outside of theros, so dont make a very good comparative metric.
Grammar is the difference between knowing your ****, and knowing you're ****.
Well... not quite. Yasova cast the Insurrection spell, but Bolas was smart enough to have her in the right place to do it if needed.
Gotta hand it to his ability to plan.
Judging on that and how many he manipulated. Bolas seems to be always a few steps ahead of his adversaries. I think together (his power) with his genius makes him the most powerful entity alive.
Perhaps Bolas feels that he can control the Eldrazi (at least indirectly) to the point it aids his schemes while these Eldrazi distracts his foes. He could find a way to get rid of them when he regains his lost power.
Is it also plausible that Bolas taught Yasova how to Threaten?
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If you take it from the cards, it's highly possible - Yasova's ability requires the colors that are Bolas' Forte.
That said, I doubt Bolas would be able to take down the Eldrazi even if he regains all of his lost power. I know his fight with Ugin is quite a bad comparison because of dragons and insurrections, but it seemed that he outedges Ugin by a bit only, because pre-insurrection the mere mortal dragons were enough to change to tide in the battle, so unless his edge then outpowers oldwalkers Sorin and Nahiri, he wouldn't stand a chance against the Eldrazi - he can't touch them, and even if he can there's probably no mind to destroy, and anything in range of the Eldrazi either loses their mind or just weakens to nothing.
EDIT: In addition, there's a possibility that two of the Eldrazi have already re-ascended above mana already.
In fairness, he has been described on several occasions as THE most powerful walker likely to have ever existed so...
Maybe. Too early to call right now. They haven't been seen, but that doesn't mean they are gone.
Excuse my edits in the original post, apparently I was editing while you were responding.
Okay, I didn't exactly memorize the UR article, so yeah, the dragons may or may not have turned to tide.
Also in fairness, most powerful doesn't indicate the power levels between him and the second-most powerful, for all we know Bolas could lose to the "Second most-powerful planeswalker that ever existed (whoever it may be)" if someone else assisted with a Hornet Sting. And on top of that, we don't even know whether the weakest Eldrazi is stronger than the strongest planeswalker, which is a possibility as long as nothing is stated for now.
Was it mentioned that the Eldrazi actually never stop eating as long as they weren't in the likes of sealed (I vaguely remembered something along the lines) and only leave when a plane is completely devoured of mana? Like you've said, we can't tell if they left because we don't know who hasn't seen the Eldrazi in ages - was it the plane itself as a whole?
Sometimes I think WotC needs to line up the WorldSouls (or their energy equivalents) and tell us them in sequenced power-levels, everything relating to the Eldrazi and partially with Bolas seems to place them all over the place.
As to who had seen the Eldrazi, it was just rumors that the other two hadn't been seen in a while.
What he is saying is that no walker alive has any power close to what they had before the mending, except maybe Bolas (as an Elder Dragon) and maybe Ugin (although we don't know how much power post-mending Ugin has). Sorin might be the second oldest next to Bolas but he isn't anywhere close to Bolas power.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yeah, with Bolas, it's... a very unique circumstance.
Elder Dragons were said to be nearly as powerful as oldwalkers at the height of their power. What that meant for Bolas is hard to directly say, but it might have been an exponential result. We really aren't sure what kind of boost nonhumanoids got from being walkers.
I think you meant Storm Crow.
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Well he got some of the immortality/youth benefits since Bolas was starting to feel his age during the start of the Alara block.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Afraid your order is a little out of order.
Bolas
Ugin?
Sorin
Nahiri?
Ob?
Karn
Liliana
Karn is only a little over 1000, far far younger than almost everyone else on that list with the exception of Liliana and potentially Ob (but we don't really know anything about Ob) Nahiri and Ugin are both at LEAST as old Sorin, but I think Ugin has a better chance of being older, and Nahiri just strikes me as younger than Sorin.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"