Ajani was only able to create the "avatar Bolas" to beat Bolas because he used some of the conflux mana that Bolas hadn't used and basically used Bolas own power against himself. Seems like it was a one time deal.
Test of Metal is non-cannon so I don't think you can use that as an example. I only brief read it, but I recall Tezzeret godly powers where limited to the etherium pocket dimension.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
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I love how people think the Theros Gods should be very powerful cause they are gods. Technically magic has loads of Gods, from the Lorwynn-Shadowmoor ones to the legacy ones. They may not have had the subtype but they were refered and worshiped the same.
Calling someone a god and worshipping them does not make them a god. Wether you admit it or not, the Theros gods are canonically gods. Period.
I love how people think the Theros Gods should be very powerful cause they are gods. Technically magic has loads of Gods, from the Lorwynn-Shadowmoor ones to the legacy ones. They may not have had the subtype but they were refered and worshiped the same.
And? Gods as a whole are proven to be powerful, be them from Theros or elsewhere. That's why they're gods. That they're tied to a plane doesn't diminuish all the sheer power they've demonstrated.
2a. Yawgmoth? Wizard's never said he was gone just not 'alive'. His taint still spreads with his essence and corruption. You can even find his symbol in other cards like Mishra's Bauble. A coldsnap card. Hypothetically he could just have died but still exist through the oil and taint. It was never said he couldn't be reborn or evolve. He did change from a human to a cloud of actual death, whose to say he can't have just been reborn as an oozing ichor liquid?
Wizards has stated (repeatedly, mind you) that Yawgmoth is dead, and is never coming back. Source for this confirmation (below the Mishra's Bauble art, it's the last line above the concept sketches). Also, on the Coldsnap thing, Coldsnap takes place shortly after Alliances and the casting of the World Spell.
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A giant dork. Who likes to eat with forks. Never used a spork.
Decks: Casual R Burn R
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The only reason the gods of theros were portrayed so powerful is because Theros was relatively isolated from the multiverse. They never really seen walkers or transdimensional being of great magnitude. And since much of their magic stems from believing in their gods, then that makes sense if there aren't many creatures stronger than them.
to further complicate this, the most powerful of their number is already wary of the rogue's gallery. Bolas and the Eldrazi especially make Kruphix sweat.
The only reason the gods of theros were portrayed so powerful is because Theros was relatively isolated from the multiverse. They never really seen walkers or transdimensional being of great magnitude. And since much of their magic stems from believing in their gods, then that makes sense if there aren't many creatures stronger than them.
to further complicate this, the most powerful of their number is already wary of the rogue's gallery. Bolas and the Eldrazi especially make Kruphix sweat.
Is Kruphix really the most powerful though? I know he's the oldest, but do we have confirmation that he's also more powerful than the mono-coloured gods, that were always described as the main ones?
Correct me if I am wrong, but Marit Lage is still alive, though entombed beneath the ice on Dominaria. She is invincible, and a huge threat is she not?
The only reason the gods of theros were portrayed so powerful is because Theros was relatively isolated from the multiverse. They never really seen walkers or transdimensional being of great magnitude. And since much of their magic stems from believing in their gods, then that makes sense if there aren't many creatures stronger than them.
to further complicate this, the most powerful of their number is already wary of the rogue's gallery. Bolas and the Eldrazi especially make Kruphix sweat.
Is Kruphix really the most powerful though? I know he's the oldest, but do we have confirmation that he's also more powerful than the mono-coloured gods, that were always described as the main ones?
Well he did stop Heliod and Purphrose fighting each other, lobotomized Purphrose knowledge of how to forge godsend and forced the other 13 gods back into Nyx during the silence.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Well he did stop Heliod and Purphrose fighting each other, lobotomized Purphrose knowledge of how to forge godsend and forced the other 13 gods back into Nyx during the silence.
Yeah, from everything we can tell, he's the real deal amongst the gods and Heliod's claim is really more ego than anything else.
I wasn't going off Heliod's claim. I know he's full of it, but I do remember having read somewhere that the five mono-coloured gods were supposed to be the major ones. But then again what does word of god really mean considering the whole Elder Dragon Ugin thing.
I guess you can be more important than someone else, without being especially more powerful? Kruphix is probably too aloof to be at the center of attention of Theros denizens, something like that? :/
I wasn't going off Heliod's claim. I know he's full of it, but I do remember having read somewhere that the five mono-coloured gods were supposed to be the major ones. But then again what does word of god really mean considering the whole Elder Dragon Ugin thing.
Main gods doesn't mean they are the most powerful.
It means they have the most worship or are meant to be the focal ones.
Well, Nylea clearly has less worship than Karametra, and Ephara is one of the most venerated deities on the plane (at least on the part of civilised human beings), so what truly defines a "major" god isn't exactly clear.
Just a note on Ashiok - he's only able to do what he can because of striking a deal with Phenax to be hidden from the other gods. I think a lot of people here are severely underestimating the power of the Theros gods on Theros. Just IMO. Worst case scenario, they'll retreat into Nyx and good luck getting there without Kruphix anyway. Ajani' method is probably the only real way to combat a Theros god, and that's not directly. Dack Fayden and his gauntlet needed two massive strikes just to take out a Shipbreaker Kraken on Theros (the first didn't even tickle the thing) - I can't imagine neowalkers taking on a god and succeeding to do any real damage. They're immortal.
I wasn't going off Heliod's claim. I know he's full of it, but I do remember having read somewhere that the five mono-coloured gods were supposed to be the major ones. But then again what does word of god really mean considering the whole Elder Dragon Ugin thing.
I agree with you about the Theros gods being legitimate gods in Magic and are quite powerful beings.
The Monocolored gods have the largest domains and are the most aloof from mortal lives. The other gods represent more abstract things, like wisdom and civilization, war, or deception. But the Monocolored gods are the oldest (except Kruphix, who predates them all) because they represent intrinsic aspects of the world - Death, Sea, Sun, etc. I think that's why they'd be the most powerful, because their domains are so large and critical to the realm itself that people are most likely to be aware of them and acknowledge them with their belief.
IMO the Mono-colored gods are basically the Olympians. Yeah, there are other gods, but those are the major players. Yet you can still have a non-Olympian, such as Discordia, cause major mischief (Trojan War) that involves the other gods.
I can't imagine neowalkers taking on a god and succeeding to do any real damage. They're immortal.
1) Dack is really really not high up on the scale of things.
2) The Theros gods are not immortal. Else we wouldn't have Kruphix aware of different gods that predated Heliod and the like. Similarly, Xenagos, as a god, was killed. They can be killed, hence, not immortal.
I can't imagine neowalkers taking on a god and succeeding to do any real damage. They're immortal.
1) Dack is really really not high up on the scale of things.
2) The Theros gods are not immortal. Else we wouldn't have Kruphix aware of different gods that predated Heliod and the like. Similarly, Xenagos, as a god, was killed. They can be killed, hence, not immortal.
To be fair, Xenagos was kind of a special case. He was once a mortal, while we don't know the origins of any of the other gods.
Test of Metal is non-cannon so I don't think you can use that as an example. I only brief read it, but I recall Tezzeret godly powers where limited to the etherium pocket dimension.
I can't imagine neowalkers taking on a god and succeeding to do any real damage. They're immortal.
1) Dack is really really not high up on the scale of things.
2) The Theros gods are not immortal. Else we wouldn't have Kruphix aware of different gods that predated Heliod and the like. Similarly, Xenagos, as a god, was killed. They can be killed, hence, not immortal.
A forgotten god is not a killed one. By that logic, remembering that god revives them with belief. Recall that in Theros, even when the gods lost devotion from the mortals for turning on them, the gods persisted because they themselves had begun believing in each other. Before that, the existence of gods depended on mortal belief solely, which according to Kruphix was short-lived, and resulted in the overthrowing of past gods with new ones like Heliod.
Presently, the gods have belief from mortals and each other. Their status as gods of their domains is secure. So long as that is the case, they're immortal. Even Godsend, which potentially could kill one (and only by the will of another god and their creation), Kruphix intervened. Elspeth needed his consent to even battle Xenagos.
Xengos was damaged by Nylea, was still part mortal, and it was explicitly stated he was illegitimate in Nyx and a false god in a domain where he did not belong and arrived only by force.
A forgotten god is not a killed one. By that logic, remembering that god revives them with belief. Recall that in Theros, even when the gods lost devotion from the mortals for turning on them, the gods persisted because they themselves had begun believing in each other. Before that, the existence of gods depended on mortal belief solely, which according to Kruphix was short-lived, and resulted in the overthrowing of past gods with new ones like Heliod.
The remembrance of a forgotten god would mean it would be subsumed by the current god.
Presently, the gods have belief from mortals and each other. Their status as gods of their domains is secure. So long as that is the case, they're immortal. Even Godsend, which potentially could kill one (and only by the will of another god and their creation), Kruphix intervened. Elspeth needed his consent to even battle Xenagos.
Xengos was damaged by Nylea, was still part mortal, and it was explicitly stated he was illegitimate in Nyx and a false god in a domain where he did not belong and arrived only by force.
Didn't stop him from being a god.
As an aside there too, if the gods belief isn't as powerful as the mortal's, there is a STRONG chance they will change if they want to or not. Belief is a powerful force, and their domain isn't as secure as they want to believe.
But aside from that, Godsend, in original form, could destroy the fabric of Nyx, which is why it caused such a terrible brouhaha in the first place. If such a thing can happen, then it does mean the gods are not immortal. If the substance they are made of can be destroyed, so can they.
Just a note on Ashiok - he's only able to do what he can because of striking a deal with Phenax to be hidden from the other gods. I think a lot of people here are severely underestimating the power of the Theros gods on Theros. Just IMO. Worst case scenario, they'll retreat into Nyx and good luck getting there without Kruphix anyway. Ajani' method is probably the only real way to combat a Theros god, and that's not directly. Dack Fayden and his gauntlet needed two massive strikes just to take out a Shipbreaker Kraken on Theros (the first didn't even tickle the thing) - I can't imagine neowalkers taking on a god and succeeding to do any real damage. They're immortal.
Just a reminder, Ashiok is currently canonically genderless. This distinction may seem arbitrary to you, but to some it is very important.
Except a god forged Godsend. So long as what sustains them is secure, the gods of Theros are immortal, especially for the purposes of head-to-head combat between planeswalkers for this comparison. How can anything directly kill the manifestations of a belief? That's what we're debating. I just see the Theros god debate splitting hairs. Take them as they are in their current state with a secure Nyx, belief from mortals and each other, as a stable pantheon, and compare their power to Planeswalkers. Even in the event the pantheon changes with time, Theros having gods is a Theros phenomenon. So we'd still be comparing Sea god 2.0's power to Kiora's for example, whether it's Thassa squaring off against her or the next incarnation of Thassa. Still a god vs. PW debate.
Just a note on Ashiok - he's only able to do what he can because of striking a deal with Phenax to be hidden from the other gods. I think a lot of people here are severely underestimating the power of the Theros gods on Theros. Just IMO. Worst case scenario, they'll retreat into Nyx and good luck getting there without Kruphix anyway. Ajani' method is probably the only real way to combat a Theros god, and that's not directly. Dack Fayden and his gauntlet needed two massive strikes just to take out a Shipbreaker Kraken on Theros (the first didn't even tickle the thing) - I can't imagine neowalkers taking on a god and succeeding to do any real damage. They're immortal.
Just a reminder, Ashiok is currently canonically genderless. This distinction may seem arbitrary to you, but to some it is very important.
Without a doubt Elesh Norn. She has absolute control over the Phyrexians who are now poised to overrun the multiverse, unlike the Eldrazi, who are in check, or Bolas who is has many planeswalker enemies closely monitoring him, ready to unite. Nobody has a clear handle on the Phyrexian threat, not even Karn.
Except a god forged Godsend. So long as what sustains them is secure, the gods of Theros are immortal, especially for the purposes of head-to-head combat between planeswalkers for this comparison. How can anything directly kill the manifestations of a belief? That's what we're debating. I just see the Theros god debate splitting hairs.
Take them as they are in their current state with a secure Nyx, belief from mortals and each other, as a stable pantheon, and compare their power to Planeswalkers. Even in the event the pantheon changes with time, Theros having gods is a Theros phenomenon. So we'd still be comparing Sea god 2.0's power to Kiora's for example, whether it's Thassa squaring off against her or the next incarnation of Thassa. Still a god vs. PW debate.
Big part here is I'm not arguing if they are powerful. I'm arguing if they are immortal. And they aren't. They can be killed, they can be forgotten or rewritten by belief, the structure of what makes them exist can be damaged. They aren'timmortal.
I make no judgement in this in how they stack up against other powers. They can cease to exist, which if they were immortal, would not be true.
Saying "so long as what sustains them is secure they are immortal" is like saying "so long as as someone continues to eat they are immortal". So what happens if that sustenance is threatened? They lose their immortality, which means they weren't really immortal.
Without a doubt Elesh Norn. She has absolute control over the Phyrexians who are now poised to overrun the multiverse, unlike the Eldrazi, who are in check, or Bolas who is has many planeswalker enemies closely monitoring him, ready to unite. Nobody has a clear handle on the Phyrexian threat, not even Karn.
Elesh Norn has only taken over 3/5 of New Phyrexia. The remaining factions are not yet under her control, and as of the moment, they are also confined exclusively to New Phyrexia.
As an aside, I would find it immensely amusing if the New Phyrexians ended up running into other New Phyrexias (such as Elspeth's homeworld) and they just had a non stop civil war as they continue to find these phyrexian pockets that don't agree with each other.
I might even cite Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur as the most powerful among the Praetors, and possibly up their with the big-wigs like Bolas. Bastard basically invented science-based planeswalking (ultimately literally invading another plane)and I wouldn't be surprised if he made another appearance at a later date, maybe even as a planeswalker himself. I mean, Bolas has a pretty good knowledge of planeswalking, even going so far as to steal Sparks to fuel his own powers. I would love to see a similar rise to power with Jin-Gitaxias. He's like the Seath the Scaleless of the MtG universe, in my opinion.
I'm... not sure how you arrived at some of these conclusions.
One, Jin-Gitaxias hasn't finished working on whatever tech left of Memnarch's, so he DEFINITELY hasn't invaded anywhere else and he DEFINITELY won't be a planeswalker. Sparks just don't work that way.
And next is Bolas hasn't stolen any sparks... honestly not sure where you got that idea from.
Without a doubt Elesh Norn. She has absolute control over the Phyrexians who are now poised to overrun the multiverse, unlike the Eldrazi, who are in check, or Bolas who is has many planeswalker enemies closely monitoring him, ready to unite. Nobody has a clear handle on the Phyrexian threat, not even Karn.
Elesh Norn has only taken over 3/5 of New Phyrexia. The remaining factions are not yet under her control, and as of the moment, they are also confined exclusively to New Phyrexia.
3/5 is still the majority. She clearly has the numbers and resources on her side, so if she wanted Glissa and Jin-Gitaxias would be dead. Tehy're probably independent by the grace of her will, but they're living on borrowed time.
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Test of Metal is non-cannon so I don't think you can use that as an example. I only brief read it, but I recall Tezzeret godly powers where limited to the etherium pocket dimension.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Calling someone a god and worshipping them does not make them a god. Wether you admit it or not, the Theros gods are canonically gods. Period.
And? Gods as a whole are proven to be powerful, be them from Theros or elsewhere. That's why they're gods. That they're tied to a plane doesn't diminuish all the sheer power they've demonstrated.
Wizards has stated (repeatedly, mind you) that Yawgmoth is dead, and is never coming back. Source for this confirmation (below the Mishra's Bauble art, it's the last line above the concept sketches). Also, on the Coldsnap thing, Coldsnap takes place shortly after Alliances and the casting of the World Spell.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
Is Kruphix really the most powerful though? I know he's the oldest, but do we have confirmation that he's also more powerful than the mono-coloured gods, that were always described as the main ones?
Well he did stop Heliod and Purphrose fighting each other, lobotomized Purphrose knowledge of how to forge godsend and forced the other 13 gods back into Nyx during the silence.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It means they have the most worship or are meant to be the focal ones.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I agree with you about the Theros gods being legitimate gods in Magic and are quite powerful beings.
The Monocolored gods have the largest domains and are the most aloof from mortal lives. The other gods represent more abstract things, like wisdom and civilization, war, or deception. But the Monocolored gods are the oldest (except Kruphix, who predates them all) because they represent intrinsic aspects of the world - Death, Sea, Sun, etc. I think that's why they'd be the most powerful, because their domains are so large and critical to the realm itself that people are most likely to be aware of them and acknowledge them with their belief.
IMO the Mono-colored gods are basically the Olympians. Yeah, there are other gods, but those are the major players. Yet you can still have a non-Olympian, such as Discordia, cause major mischief (Trojan War) that involves the other gods.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
1) Dack is really really not high up on the scale of things.
2) The Theros gods are not immortal. Else we wouldn't have Kruphix aware of different gods that predated Heliod and the like. Similarly, Xenagos, as a god, was killed. They can be killed, hence, not immortal.
To be fair, Xenagos was kind of a special case. He was once a mortal, while we don't know the origins of any of the other gods.
Edit:
Source?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
A forgotten god is not a killed one. By that logic, remembering that god revives them with belief. Recall that in Theros, even when the gods lost devotion from the mortals for turning on them, the gods persisted because they themselves had begun believing in each other. Before that, the existence of gods depended on mortal belief solely, which according to Kruphix was short-lived, and resulted in the overthrowing of past gods with new ones like Heliod.
Presently, the gods have belief from mortals and each other. Their status as gods of their domains is secure. So long as that is the case, they're immortal. Even Godsend, which potentially could kill one (and only by the will of another god and their creation), Kruphix intervened. Elspeth needed his consent to even battle Xenagos.
Xengos was damaged by Nylea, was still part mortal, and it was explicitly stated he was illegitimate in Nyx and a false god in a domain where he did not belong and arrived only by force.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
The remembrance of a forgotten god would mean it would be subsumed by the current god.
Didn't stop him from being a god.
As an aside there too, if the gods belief isn't as powerful as the mortal's, there is a STRONG chance they will change if they want to or not. Belief is a powerful force, and their domain isn't as secure as they want to believe.
But aside from that, Godsend, in original form, could destroy the fabric of Nyx, which is why it caused such a terrible brouhaha in the first place. If such a thing can happen, then it does mean the gods are not immortal. If the substance they are made of can be destroyed, so can they.
Just a reminder, Ashiok is currently canonically genderless. This distinction may seem arbitrary to you, but to some it is very important.
You're right, they are genderless ATM.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Big part here is I'm not arguing if they are powerful. I'm arguing if they are immortal. And they aren't. They can be killed, they can be forgotten or rewritten by belief, the structure of what makes them exist can be damaged. They aren't immortal.
I make no judgement in this in how they stack up against other powers. They can cease to exist, which if they were immortal, would not be true.
Saying "so long as what sustains them is secure they are immortal" is like saying "so long as as someone continues to eat they are immortal". So what happens if that sustenance is threatened? They lose their immortality, which means they weren't really immortal.
Elesh Norn has only taken over 3/5 of New Phyrexia. The remaining factions are not yet under her control, and as of the moment, they are also confined exclusively to New Phyrexia.
As an aside, I would find it immensely amusing if the New Phyrexians ended up running into other New Phyrexias (such as Elspeth's homeworld) and they just had a non stop civil war as they continue to find these phyrexian pockets that don't agree with each other.
I'm... not sure how you arrived at some of these conclusions.
One, Jin-Gitaxias hasn't finished working on whatever tech left of Memnarch's, so he DEFINITELY hasn't invaded anywhere else and he DEFINITELY won't be a planeswalker. Sparks just don't work that way.
And next is Bolas hasn't stolen any sparks... honestly not sure where you got that idea from.
3/5 is still the majority. She clearly has the numbers and resources on her side, so if she wanted Glissa and Jin-Gitaxias would be dead. Tehy're probably independent by the grace of her will, but they're living on borrowed time.