So I'm building an EDH deck for Karador, Ghost Chieftain right now and I was bored so looked at his little bio on the foldout from the old Commander precon he was in, and it read as this:
"Once a high warchief of the Nessian centaurs, Karador was slain in a great battle. Now Karador haunts the valleys of his birth, an embittered king of a realm of wraiths and shades. He gathers ghostly minions for an assault on the rival warchief who deposed him."
Nessian Centaurs
Now we've seen a future sight card called Nessian Courser, a vanilla centaur that wasn't special. Now we know there are Centaurs on Theros, but there are on a lot of other planes as well, such as Ravnica. Recently though, we got spoilers for a Theros green creature called Nessian Asp, a large snake from the plane. Is this enough of a connection to say that Karador could be from Theros and perhaps a member of Erebos' realm who escaped and haunts the living areas of the plane? Is there any chance we may see him or get a reference to him during this block?
As he is right now?
I'm afraid not. There are too many aspects of Karador that don't jive with what we know. For one, if he is an escaped spirit, then he'd need to be an eidolon, with those visual cues as well.
Aside from that, there's also the awkwardness of the elf in his picture, which shouldn't exist at all.
I don't rule out the possibility they will alter his backstory, as they had Kaalia to make her Alaran, but it's an uphill battle and Karador might have to be banished to the Future Sight zones of unrealized beings.
As he is right now?
I'm afraid not. There are too many aspects of Karador that don't jive with what we know. For one, if he is an escaped spirit, then he'd need to be an eidolon, with those visual cues as well.
Aside from that, there's also the awkwardness of the elf in his picture, which shouldn't exist at all.
I don't rule out the possibility they will alter his backstory, as they had Kaalia to make her Alaran, but it's an uphill battle and Karador might have to be banished to the Future Sight zones of unrealized beings.
True, right now there's no way he'll just show up (and wouldn't he be a returned rather than an Eidolon since we're on Theros?)
I was just thinking possibly a reference to him somewhere or possibly a printing of him when he was still alive, which would allow for more on-theme abilities and art, though even then I agree the Elf doesn't belong there.
True, right now there's no way he'll just show up (and wouldn't he be a returned rather than an Eidolon since we're on Theros?)
I was just thinking possibly a reference to him somewhere or possibly a printing of him when he was still alive, which would allow for more on-theme abilities and art, though even then I agree the Elf doesn't belong there.
The returned are the physical bodies, stripped of their identities (which become the Eidolons), so as a spirit, he wouldn't be one of the returned.
The possibility of a living Karador isn't something I'd rule out, but it might be a lot to go through.
Most likely I expect we'll see a retcon to where he's the chieftan of a different clan of centaurs, since Nessian things apparently now hale from Theros.
Most likely I expect we'll see a retcon to where he's the chieftain of a different clan of centaurs, since Nessian things apparently now hail from Theros.
Fixed that for you.
Also, I don't buy it that Karador went trucking around with a planeswalker.
I also think that Karador AND the courser from FS were just randomly called that before Theros was really envisioned as a Greco-Roman set.
They must have a plan though, right? Why even use the name Nessian if they didn't want to connect it back to the two Nessian references we already have?
I'd guess the retcon would go the other way, making Karador an eidolon.
They must have a plan though, right? Why even use the name Nessian if they didn't want to connect it back to the two Nessian references we already have?
I'd guess the retcon would go the other way, making Karador an eidolon.
The fact that Karador is related to Nessian centaurs at all is known by very few players. I think they just wanted to make a reference to Nessian Courser, because it fits the flavor of the set and people like it when future-shifted cards get referenced.
Assuming they even noticed the flavor clash with Karador, they probably just thought the FS reference was valuable enough to be worth it.
Also, I don't buy it that Karador went trucking around with a planeswalker.
I also think that Karador AND the courser from FS were just randomly called that before Theros was really envisioned as a Greco-Roman set.
Okay, I think I have this figured out: Nessian Courser (which is a reference to Nessus, a centaur from Greek mythology) was presumably flavored as such in Future Sight to tease at the future possibility Greek or Greco-Roman themed block, but of course this was long before any was planned. (It is even possible that Arkhos was the plane they vaguely had in mind for this setting, given Lethe Lake, River of Tears, and MaRo's recent statements about the significance of dreams with respect to Greek mythology.)
Next, we know from MaRo's own statements that the block that became Theros he originally pitched as something completely different that ultimately Creative nixed as impossible. (Crazy baseless theory of my own - he pitched a block set on Shandalar in the distant past during Leshrac's post-Ice Age invasion, and it would have tied to Liliana's story by explaining the origins of the Chain Veil.) Based on the time table MaRo has given us, this apparently happened sometime early in 2011 (as Theros design began around then). Which was either after, or at worst around the same time the 2011 Commander decks were being developed.
So my theory is either A) Karador, Ghost Chieftain was designed and creatively developed prior to them being aware they were doing a Greek mythology block, and someone thought it would be cool to tie him to Nessian Courser, or B) Karador was designed during the earliest creative phase for Theros, when they knew the block concept, but little else, and Karador was intended as an early teaser for the block that ultimately was rendered creatively inconsistance (like how Sarcomite Myr was intended to preview New Phyrexia, but then that type of colored artifacts became Esper's thing instead.)
wow... "The Theriad" has to be one of the lazier, if accurate, nods I've seen come from Theros.
I thought that was the Akroan Horse... I mean come on, couldn't they at least change it to a giant wooden ox? Or stag? Or something besides a horse? Sigh.
You know, this Karador kerfuffle has made me think a bit. I mean, greek myth was full of characters who either visited the underworld, where let go, or escaped from it.... And we know that Theran demons are people who where so evil that the evil twisted them after death into monstrous forms which they then used to escape the underworld.
So, it could be possible that Karador was such a noble spirit that the underworld simply couldn't hold his spirit for long. It's the most obvious explanation if he is indeed intended to be from Theros.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Changing the card from a horse to a somewhat similar animal still creates the connection to the horse of troy. A badger and a rabbit aren't even ungulates so I fail to see how that is the same.
As for what is gained. Well, wizards wanted to make a magic setting inspired by greek mythology, not blindly copying greek mythology. In my opinion simply changing the name of the associated city with another name is not enough to call it an "inspiration". To me it's essentially a real world reference under a new name, which is something I hoped they'd avoid.
Changing the card from a horse to a somewhat similar animal still creates the connection to the horse of troy. A badger and a rabbit aren't even ungulates so I fail to see how that is the same.
As for what is gained. Well, wizards wanted to make a magic setting inspired by greek mythology, not blindly copying greek mythology. In my opinion simply changing the name of the associated city with another name is not enough to call it an "inspiration". To me it's essentially a real world reference under a new name, which is something I hoped they'd avoid.
You do of course know that there is no actual evidence of a Trojan Horse having ever existed? The only reference to it we have is the Iliad, a work of fiction.
Troy did exist though, we know that much.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
So, it could be possible that Karador was such a noble spirit that the underworld simply couldn't hold his spirit for long. It's the most obvious explanation if he is indeed intended to be from Theros.
Doubtful. Too many colors of mana for one, but aside from that, we have the simple issue that he still doesn't share the motifs of the returned or the eidolons. Change is needed for it to work.
As for what is gained. Well, wizards wanted to make a magic setting inspired by greek mythology, not blindly copying greek mythology. In my opinion simply changing the name of the associated city with another name is not enough to call it an "inspiration". To me it's essentially a real world reference under a new name, which is something I hoped they'd avoid.
In fairness, this is more than just an artifact. This is a robot horse, not just a giant statue. I mostly agree that this particular change is... suboptimal, but people are forgetting that the akroan horse is more than a wooden horse on wheels. This is a case where the original has too much resonance because it immediately dominates the inspired piece.
Doubtful. Too many colors of mana for one, but aside from that, we have the simple issue that he still doesn't share the motifs of the returned or the eidolons. Change is needed for it to work.
Change is inevitable.
That said, as I pointed out, the Demons of Theros are also escapees from the underworld, but they retain both their bodies and their spirits (unlike the Returned and the Eidolons).
And if the Theran underworld is analogous to Tartarus, then there should logically be an analogue for the Elysian Fields as well. Because if you are going to Tartarus no matter what you do, then what's the point of being heroic? As such I posit that Karador comes from the Theran equivalent of the Elysian Fields.
Besides, if Erebos is a Hades analogue, then he will occasionally let people leave rather than escape, for the right reasons of course.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
That said, as I pointed out, the Demons of Theros are also escapees from the underworld, but they retain both their bodies and their spirits (unlike the Returned and the Eidolons).
Somewhat debatable. The process in which they become demons is shrouded in mystery.
And if the Theran underworld is analogous to Tartarus, then there should logically be an analogue for the Elysian Fields as well. Because if you are going to Tartarus no matter what you do, then what's the point of being heroic? As such I posit that Karador comes from the Theran equivalent of the Elysian Fields.
We actually know directly that there aren't. There is one and only one afterlife for people, the vast gray stretches of the Underworld where you will have eternity to... kinda just scratch in the dirt.
Besides, if Erebos is a Hades analogue, then he will occasionally let people leave rather than escape, for the right reasons of course.
Doesn't. He mostly just views people that escape as eventually having to return. Everyone returns eventually.
"Once a high warchief of the Nessian centaurs, Karador was slain in a great battle. Now Karador haunts the valleys of his birth, an embittered king of a realm of wraiths and shades. He gathers ghostly minions for an assault on the rival warchief who deposed him."
Nessian Centaurs
Now we've seen a future sight card called Nessian Courser, a vanilla centaur that wasn't special. Now we know there are Centaurs on Theros, but there are on a lot of other planes as well, such as Ravnica. Recently though, we got spoilers for a Theros green creature called Nessian Asp, a large snake from the plane. Is this enough of a connection to say that Karador could be from Theros and perhaps a member of Erebos' realm who escaped and haunts the living areas of the plane? Is there any chance we may see him or get a reference to him during this block?
WB Eldrazi Processors BW
Legacy:
WUBRGLandless DredgeGRBUW
EDH:
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothGB
WUBrago, King Eternal (Budget!)UW
I'm afraid not. There are too many aspects of Karador that don't jive with what we know. For one, if he is an escaped spirit, then he'd need to be an eidolon, with those visual cues as well.
Aside from that, there's also the awkwardness of the elf in his picture, which shouldn't exist at all.
I don't rule out the possibility they will alter his backstory, as they had Kaalia to make her Alaran, but it's an uphill battle and Karador might have to be banished to the Future Sight zones of unrealized beings.
True, right now there's no way he'll just show up (and wouldn't he be a returned rather than an Eidolon since we're on Theros?)
I was just thinking possibly a reference to him somewhere or possibly a printing of him when he was still alive, which would allow for more on-theme abilities and art, though even then I agree the Elf doesn't belong there.
WB Eldrazi Processors BW
Legacy:
WUBRGLandless DredgeGRBUW
EDH:
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothGB
WUBrago, King Eternal (Budget!)UW
The returned are the physical bodies, stripped of their identities (which become the Eidolons), so as a spirit, he wouldn't be one of the returned.
The possibility of a living Karador isn't something I'd rule out, but it might be a lot to go through.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/207
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/208
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Fixed that for you.
Also, I don't buy it that Karador went trucking around with a planeswalker.
I also think that Karador AND the courser from FS were just randomly called that before Theros was really envisioned as a Greco-Roman set.
I'd guess the retcon would go the other way, making Karador an eidolon.
The fact that Karador is related to Nessian centaurs at all is known by very few players. I think they just wanted to make a reference to Nessian Courser, because it fits the flavor of the set and people like it when future-shifted cards get referenced.
Assuming they even noticed the flavor clash with Karador, they probably just thought the FS reference was valuable enough to be worth it.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
It's obvious that Karador isn't one, though.
Just Grecian, not roman.
Yeah, but it's a really cool one.
Next, we know from MaRo's own statements that the block that became Theros he originally pitched as something completely different that ultimately Creative nixed as impossible. (Crazy baseless theory of my own - he pitched a block set on Shandalar in the distant past during Leshrac's post-Ice Age invasion, and it would have tied to Liliana's story by explaining the origins of the Chain Veil.) Based on the time table MaRo has given us, this apparently happened sometime early in 2011 (as Theros design began around then). Which was either after, or at worst around the same time the 2011 Commander decks were being developed.
So my theory is either A) Karador, Ghost Chieftain was designed and creatively developed prior to them being aware they were doing a Greek mythology block, and someone thought it would be cool to tie him to Nessian Courser, or B) Karador was designed during the earliest creative phase for Theros, when they knew the block concept, but little else, and Karador was intended as an early teaser for the block that ultimately was rendered creatively inconsistance (like how Sarcomite Myr was intended to preview New Phyrexia, but then that type of colored artifacts became Esper's thing instead.)
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ths/obasdfkjw8324lz/VnrRE5uE7Gq_EN_LR.jpg
So, yeah, incoming retcons.
Everyone get out your tinfoil hats so you can still remember the alpha timeline.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
I had one installed on the inside of my skull dome. I'm safe.
And yet some of the playerbase will have to have it pointed out to them. Perhaps even explained.
Everyone knows the Odyssey, and most people know the content of the Iliad, but they don't think of the name that often.
I thought that was the Akroan Horse... I mean come on, couldn't they at least change it to a giant wooden ox? Or stag? Or something besides a horse? Sigh.
So, it could be possible that Karador was such a noble spirit that the underworld simply couldn't hold his spirit for long. It's the most obvious explanation if he is indeed intended to be from Theros.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
As for what is gained. Well, wizards wanted to make a magic setting inspired by greek mythology, not blindly copying greek mythology. In my opinion simply changing the name of the associated city with another name is not enough to call it an "inspiration". To me it's essentially a real world reference under a new name, which is something I hoped they'd avoid.
You do of course know that there is no actual evidence of a Trojan Horse having ever existed? The only reference to it we have is the Iliad, a work of fiction.
Troy did exist though, we know that much.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
In fairness, this is more than just an artifact. This is a robot horse, not just a giant statue. I mostly agree that this particular change is... suboptimal, but people are forgetting that the akroan horse is more than a wooden horse on wheels. This is a case where the original has too much resonance because it immediately dominates the inspired piece.
Change is inevitable.
That said, as I pointed out, the Demons of Theros are also escapees from the underworld, but they retain both their bodies and their spirits (unlike the Returned and the Eidolons).
And if the Theran underworld is analogous to Tartarus, then there should logically be an analogue for the Elysian Fields as well. Because if you are going to Tartarus no matter what you do, then what's the point of being heroic? As such I posit that Karador comes from the Theran equivalent of the Elysian Fields.
Besides, if Erebos is a Hades analogue, then he will occasionally let people leave rather than escape, for the right reasons of course.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Somewhat debatable. The process in which they become demons is shrouded in mystery.
We actually know directly that there aren't. There is one and only one afterlife for people, the vast gray stretches of the Underworld where you will have eternity to... kinda just scratch in the dirt.
Doesn't. He mostly just views people that escape as eventually having to return. Everyone returns eventually.