I was thinking these days about the definition of planes and I came with a doubt:
What exactly plane means? Dominaria, Zendikar, Innistrad, all of them are called as planes, but they are planets right? Innistrad is a place or is the planet itself that lies on a spatial plane, but Zendikar is another planet in another plane, or could it be just another planet on the same plane as Innistrad for example? Does every set lies on a different plane with single planets? That's kind of confusing
A plane, as the wiki describes it is "a self-contained world or universe of any size found within the multiverse." Planes are not necessarily planets, though many of them are spherical like the celestial bodies you refer to as planets. Some are flat and others are crazier shapes altogether (think the shards of Alara). They are each separated by a void akin to our space, called The Blind Eternities. Nothing is said to reside within The Blind Eternities and only planeswalkers are said to be able to travel through The Blind Eternities--though there are the Eldrazi, interplanar portals, and other shenanigans that occur regularly.
When we talk about planes in Magic, we aren't talking about one geometric plane of dimension, but rather it is Magic vernacular to describe a world and all the ecosystems that reside on that plane. Instead, we talk about specific universes that are separated from other universes within the multiverse. As per your example, Innistrad is one plane all by itself and, somewhere beyond The Blind Eternities past Innistrad, would lie Zendikar, New Phyrexia, Ravnica, and Kamigawa--all separate planes of their own.
Recently, each block has had us visit new planes each year with the exceptional revisitations of Mirrodin--now New Phyrexia--and Ravnica. Prior to this, however, a lot of Magic's stories happened on one central "hub plane" called Dominaria. Dominaria is a VERY expansive plane with many different nations and cultures spread throughout it. The Weatherlight Saga as well as Time Spiral block was set there.
A plane, as the wiki describes it is "a self-contained world or universe of any size found within the multiverse." Planes are not necessarily planets, though many of them are spherical like the celestial bodies you refer to as planets. Some are flat and others are crazier shapes altogether (think the shards of Alara). They are each separated by a void akin to our space, called The Blind Eternities. Nothing is said to reside within The Blind Eternities and only planeswalkers are said to be able to travel through The Blind Eternities--though there are the Eldrazi, interplanar portals, and other shenanigans that occur regularly.
When we talk about planes in Magic, we aren't talking about one geometric plane of dimension, but rather it is Magic vernacular to describe a world and all the ecosystems that reside on that plane. Instead, we talk about specific universes that are separated from other universes within the multiverse. As per your example, Innistrad is one plane all by itself and, somewhere beyond The Blind Eternities past Innistrad, would lie Zendikar, New Phyrexia, Ravnica, and Kamigawa--all separate planes of their own.
Recently, each block has had us visit new planes each year with the exceptional revisitations of Mirrodin--now New Phyrexia--and Ravnica. Prior to this, however, a lot of Magic's stories happened on one central "hub plane" called Dominaria. Dominaria is a VERY expansive plane with many different nations and cultures spread throughout it. The Weatherlight Saga as well as Time Spiral block was set there.
Addendum: Parts of the Weatherlight Saga took place on planes other than Dominaria, notably: Mercadia, Rath, Serra's Realm, Phyrexia, and a very short visit to Ulgrotha in Invasion (when Urza recruited Taysir and Daria).
Note that three of these planes (Rath, Serra's Realm, and Phyrexia) were artificial planes and no longer exist. (Rath overlayed and merged with Dominaria, Serra's Realm was collapsed into a powerstone, and Phyrexia got blown into so many pieces that the already unstable plane fell apart).
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Basically I have for example the plane of zendikar and inside that plane we can have thousands of stars planets and solar systems? I will read the links you sent me later (I'm at the university right now), thanks for explaining this to me
That is exactly true. It's just never come up that we visit other planets (if they exist) within the block. If we did, it's never mentioned and we assume it's all on on location. Of course, there's Innistrad's moon and Mirrodin's five suns to consider.
Addendum: Parts of the Weatherlight Saga took place on planes other than Dominaria, notably: Mercadia, Rath, Serra's Realm, Phyrexia, and a very short visit to Ulgrotha in Invasion (when Urza recruited Taysir and Daria).
Note that three of these planes (Rath, Serra's Realm, and Phyrexia) were artificial planes and no longer exist. (Rath overlayed and merged with Dominaria, Serra's Realm was collapsed into a powerstone, and Phyrexia got blown into so many pieces that the already unstable plane fell apart).
Aha! I never said it was set exclusively there! But I'm being a curmudgeon. Thanks for the addendum.
And no problem, Sig.
Yes, theoretically, one plane can encompass multiple "planets" (i.e. the Alaran Shards), or multiple stars (after all, the plane of Mirrodin had five suns). The depth of the oceans and height of the skies are as varied as the vastness of the landscape and change from plane to plane. Most of what we see in the blocks are manageable amounts of locations and cultures, but most times that's just a small sample of what the plane actually has. Ravnica is a good example of this. Sometimes, that's all that the plane has. I think Ulgrotha was a fairly small plane.
A plane can contain a multitude of planetoids, etc. but it's not a guarantee.
Every plane works a little bit different.
When there's a discription regardind a flat plane like lorwyn, it's like there's no space/stars/suns..etc, just a flat place covering the whole dimension where lorwyn is situated?
Edit: About Shards of Alara, it was different planes that merged in one? sounds very chaotic and troublesome
When there's a discription regardind a flat plane like lorwyn, it's like there's no space/stars/suns..etc, just a flat place covering the whole dimension where lorwyn is situated?
In cases where the plane is flat like Lorwyn, it functions a lot like Tolkien's Middle-earth I believe, with celestial bodies "encased" within the plane itself. In fact, any celestial body that interacts with the terrestrial side of the plane is encompassed by the plane as well.
Think of planes as sort of snowglobes that have everything inside of them. As Uii alluded, Innistrad and its moon are all part of Innistrad's plane.
Well, we don't really know what composes a plane beyond what we see.
Lorywn, as we know it, is flat like a map, like how explorers way back when thought Earth was.
Very true, but I think with cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and illustrations like Prismatic Omen, we can make a presumption that the denizens of the plane know that celestial bodies exist within their realm.
If that's the case, these celestial bodies exist far above the ground, so it's reasonable to imagine a 3-dimensional plane with a significant Y-axis value. Anything else beyond what we're told about the flatness of Lorwyn is speculation I suppose. I just don't think Lorwyn is a pancake plane as Sigifried suggested.
@Sigifried: Alara was one plane that was somehow separated into five distinct shards. After time and a little help from Bolas (though that may have been inconsequential), Alara's shards merged together to reform the original plane with its five colours intact.
Very true, but I think with cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and illustrations like Prismatic Omen, we can make a presumption that the denizens of the plane know that celestial bodies exist within their realm.
If that's the case, these celestial bodies exist far above the ground, so it's reasonable to imagine a 3-dimensional plane with a significant Y-axis value. Anything else beyond what we're told about the flatness of Lorwyn is speculation I suppose. I just don't think Lorwyn is a pancake plane as Sigifried suggested.
@Sigifried: Alara was one plane that was somehow separated into five distinct shards. After time and a little help from Bolas (though that may have been inconsequential), Alara's shards merged together to reform the original plane with its five colours intact.
Primal Beyond kinda points towards Lorwyn/Shadowmoor being flat(ish) as it shows that it has a definite edge.
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Primal Beyond kinda points towards Lorwyn/Shadowmoor being flat(ish) as it shows that it has a definite edge.
Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm arguing that it isn't a pancake. I believe it has a ceiling for its celestial bodies to sit upon. Or, well, if it's a pancake, it's a THICK pancake.
It makes the definition of "flat" a bit innocuous since we don't normally talk about a plane's celestial bodies as residing within the plane. When players talk about a plane, they will normally refer to the land and not what lies above or, in the case of multi-planetary planes, around it.
Take for example our Earth. When people talk about it in the celestial sense, we talk about the big rock and all those things that live in and on it. But if there were motes of stars within the atmosphere, those too would be a part of the Earth.
That's more or less what I'm trying to say in terms of planes with celestial entities like Innistrad's moon or Mirrodin's suns. And, in the case of Lorwyn, it's sun and moon as well.
Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm arguing that it isn't a pancake. I believe it has a ceiling for its celestial bodies to sit upon. Or, well, if it's a pancake, it's a THICK pancake.
It makes the definition of "flat" a bit innocuous since we don't normally talk about a plane's celestial bodies as residing within the plane. When players talk about a plane, they will normally refer to the land and not what lies above or, in the case of multi-planetary planes, around it.
Take for example our Earth. When people talk about it in the celestial sense, we talk about the big rock and all those things that live in and on it. But if there were motes of stars within the atmosphere, those too would be a part of the Earth.
That's more or less what I'm trying to say in terms of planes with celestial entities like Innistrad's moon or Mirrodin's suns. And, in the case of Lorwyn, it's sun and moon as well.
When one refers to a flat world, they are not referring to it being like a pancake, but rather that if you travel far enough in one direction you come to an edge of some sort.
Speaking of which, I used to have an old M:TG book that explained the concept of planes quite well.
Basically, each individual plane is its own universe, some are as small as a few feet across (nothing really happens there), while others may be as big as (or bigger than) our own. Most of the ones we visit are between the size of a small planetoid (Sergovia and Ulgrotha for example) and a solar system (Dominaria, Ravnica, Innistrad) with their own celestial bodies. Of course, far from every celestial body in a plane is habitable, in fact most, (just like in our solar system, from what we know anyway) aren't. Which is why when we visit the larger planes, we just stick around on the one habitable planetoid (if there is indeed a planetoid).
Of course, planes can be nearly any shape as well. Some, as I mentioned, are shaped as large spheres (Dominaria, Rath, Ulgrotha), others are Donut shaped, some resemble a wheel (Alara, apparently, after the convergence, with the conflux in the middle), some are flat (Lorwyn, Rath), some are hollow (Phyrexia, Mirrodin), some have additional dimensions (Kamigawa's Spirit World), some are isles of dirt and rock suspended in the air (Serra's Realm), and some have a ground and a sky with no clear edge (Rabiah). And many worlds have even laws of physics quite different from what we are used to (Zendikar, most notably).
In essence, a plane can be any size and have any conceivable shape and/or physics.
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@Sigifried: Alara was one plane that was somehow separated into five distinct shards. After time and a little help from Bolas (though that may have been inconsequential), Alara's shards merged together to reform the original plane with its five colours intact.
Not shards in the same planar space. Five totally separate broken planes. Bolas also had nothing to do with the conflux occurring. It was going to happen regardless of his involvement.
Of course, planes can be nearly any shape as well. Some, as I mentioned, are shaped as large spheres (Dominaria, Rath, Ulgrotha), others are Donut shaped, some resemble a wheel (Alara, apparently, after the convergence, with the conflux in the middle), some are flat (Lorwyn, Rath), some are hollow (Phyrexia, Mirrodin), some have additional dimensions (Kamigawa's Spirit World), some are isles of dirt and rock suspended in the air (Serra's Realm), and some have a ground and a sky with no clear edge (Rabiah). And many worlds have even laws of physics quite different from what we are used to (Zendikar, most notably).
In essence, a plane can be any size and have any conceivable shape and/or physics.
And according to Karn, there is at least one plane out there that is a flat plate on the back of a gigantic turtle. Yes, this is actually a thing.
To the original question, as far as I can determine, the concept of "planes" as being synonymous with "universe" derives from the term "plane of existence" (probably by way of D&D) which historically more often referred to the idea that there are literally higher and lowers levels of existence (similar to the idea that Heaven is above our world, and Hell is below our world).
Unfortunately, since in MtG we are not talking about worlds stacked on top of each other in a spatial sense (err, not counting things like the Nine Spheres of Phyrexia), the term "plane" is rather misleading.
An obvious reference given Nevinyrral's disc, but sadly, not an actual plane in Dominia.
Expy, sure, but not actually part of it.
Discworld in turn, is a reference to an old Central Asian myth regarding the world being held up by four elephants standing on the back of a colossal turtle.
Which in turn lead to a philosopher asking "What does the Turtle stand on?". The answer? Another turtle. Basically, it's turtles all the way down. >.<
I always thought that concept was funny. It is better in Discworld however, as the World Turtle in that lovely setting is swimming through space. Space is an ocean after all.
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Discworld in turn, is a reference to an old Central Asian myth regarding the world being held up by four elephants standing on the back of a colossal turtle.
Which in turn lead to a philosopher asking "What does the Turtle stand on?". The answer? Another turtle. Basically, it's turtles all the way down. >.<
It's funnier considering the "Turtles all the way down" has been perpetuated by a series of notable individuals naming the quote they'd encountered, but never seeming to know from which it originally sprang.
Not shards in the same planar space. Five totally separate broken planes. Bolas also had nothing to do with the conflux occurring. It was going to happen regardless of his involvement.
I understood that they were certainly not in the same planar space, but did planeswalkers who were not knowledgeable of Alara's united state consider each one as a different plane? I hadn't realised that was the case, but it certainly would make sense that way. Thanks for the clarification.
Ah, ever the vigilant warden, Barinellos! Of course you would catch my fabrication of Bolas' involvement in the conflux. I know it's no good to spread untruths in here, but I was really hoping I could sneak in a little more infamy for the old dragon.
I understood that they were certainly not in the same planar space, but did planeswalkers who were not knowledgeable of Alara's united state consider each one as a different plane? I hadn't realised that was the case, but it certainly would make sense that way. Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, because they were seperate planes.
You had to planeswalk from one to another to travel.
In fact in the cases of both Ajani and Tezzeret, their initial planeswalks were from one shard to another, preumsably because they were in such close proximity.
Most walkers didn't even know that they were a unified plane before they rejoined.
In Test, Tezzeret mentions that he's on Jund and Bolas corrects him by saying he's in Jund (Tezz was in a coma for the entirety of the Conflux), and Tezzeret had no idea what he meant.
Ah, ever the vigilant warden, Barinellos! Of course you would catch my fabrication of Bolas' involvement in the conflux. I know it's no good to spread untruths in here, but I was really hoping I could sneak in a little more infamy for the old dragon.
Believe me, the dragon honestly doesn't need the help. His reputation is already tremendous.
Bottom line: each plane seen thus far is a universe onto itself, the exact shape of which isn't always known (the lack of detail on the Shards STILL bugs me :-/), and while some do have the capacity for more detail, as the universe beyond our own planet, we have yet to explore that outside of that one time the Weatherlight went into space and what was known of Dominaria's moons.
It's funnier considering the "Turtles all the way down" has been perpetuated by a series of notable individuals naming the quote they'd encountered, but never seeming to know from which it originally sprang.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Bottom line: each plane seen thus far is a universe onto itself, the exact shape of which isn't always known (the lack of detail on the Shards STILL bugs me :-/), and while some do have the capacity for more detail, as the universe beyond our own planet, we have yet to explore that outside of that one time the Weatherlight went into space and what was known of Dominaria's moons.
What exactly plane means? Dominaria, Zendikar, Innistrad, all of them are called as planes, but they are planets right? Innistrad is a place or is the planet itself that lies on a spatial plane, but Zendikar is another planet in another plane, or could it be just another planet on the same plane as Innistrad for example? Does every set lies on a different plane with single planets? That's kind of confusing
When we talk about planes in Magic, we aren't talking about one geometric plane of dimension, but rather it is Magic vernacular to describe a world and all the ecosystems that reside on that plane. Instead, we talk about specific universes that are separated from other universes within the multiverse. As per your example, Innistrad is one plane all by itself and, somewhere beyond The Blind Eternities past Innistrad, would lie Zendikar, New Phyrexia, Ravnica, and Kamigawa--all separate planes of their own.
Recently, each block has had us visit new planes each year with the exceptional revisitations of Mirrodin--now New Phyrexia--and Ravnica. Prior to this, however, a lot of Magic's stories happened on one central "hub plane" called Dominaria. Dominaria is a VERY expansive plane with many different nations and cultures spread throughout it. The Weatherlight Saga as well as Time Spiral block was set there.
There was a recent discussion about the shape of planes:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=513618&highlight=plane
Ironically, Barinellos links to another discussion in there that discusses planes as well:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=492902
Hope that helps!
Addendum: Parts of the Weatherlight Saga took place on planes other than Dominaria, notably: Mercadia, Rath, Serra's Realm, Phyrexia, and a very short visit to Ulgrotha in Invasion (when Urza recruited Taysir and Daria).
Note that three of these planes (Rath, Serra's Realm, and Phyrexia) were artificial planes and no longer exist. (Rath overlayed and merged with Dominaria, Serra's Realm was collapsed into a powerstone, and Phyrexia got blown into so many pieces that the already unstable plane fell apart).
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Every plane works a little bit different.
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Aha! I never said it was set exclusively there! But I'm being a curmudgeon. Thanks for the addendum.
And no problem, Sig.
Yes, theoretically, one plane can encompass multiple "planets" (i.e. the Alaran Shards), or multiple stars (after all, the plane of Mirrodin had five suns). The depth of the oceans and height of the skies are as varied as the vastness of the landscape and change from plane to plane. Most of what we see in the blocks are manageable amounts of locations and cultures, but most times that's just a small sample of what the plane actually has. Ravnica is a good example of this. Sometimes, that's all that the plane has. I think Ulgrotha was a fairly small plane.
When there's a discription regardind a flat plane like lorwyn, it's like there's no space/stars/suns..etc, just a flat place covering the whole dimension where lorwyn is situated?
Edit: About Shards of Alara, it was different planes that merged in one? sounds very chaotic and troublesome
Wheel of Sun and Moon would like a word with you.
In cases where the plane is flat like Lorwyn, it functions a lot like Tolkien's Middle-earth I believe, with celestial bodies "encased" within the plane itself. In fact, any celestial body that interacts with the terrestrial side of the plane is encompassed by the plane as well.
Think of planes as sort of snowglobes that have everything inside of them. As Uii alluded, Innistrad and its moon are all part of Innistrad's plane.
Lorywn, as we know it, is flat like a map, like how explorers way back when thought Earth was.
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Very true, but I think with cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and illustrations like Prismatic Omen, we can make a presumption that the denizens of the plane know that celestial bodies exist within their realm.
If that's the case, these celestial bodies exist far above the ground, so it's reasonable to imagine a 3-dimensional plane with a significant Y-axis value. Anything else beyond what we're told about the flatness of Lorwyn is speculation I suppose. I just don't think Lorwyn is a pancake plane as Sigifried suggested.
@Sigifried: Alara was one plane that was somehow separated into five distinct shards. After time and a little help from Bolas (though that may have been inconsequential), Alara's shards merged together to reform the original plane with its five colours intact.
Primal Beyond kinda points towards Lorwyn/Shadowmoor being flat(ish) as it shows that it has a definite edge.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm arguing that it isn't a pancake. I believe it has a ceiling for its celestial bodies to sit upon. Or, well, if it's a pancake, it's a THICK pancake.
It makes the definition of "flat" a bit innocuous since we don't normally talk about a plane's celestial bodies as residing within the plane. When players talk about a plane, they will normally refer to the land and not what lies above or, in the case of multi-planetary planes, around it.
Take for example our Earth. When people talk about it in the celestial sense, we talk about the big rock and all those things that live in and on it. But if there were motes of stars within the atmosphere, those too would be a part of the Earth.
That's more or less what I'm trying to say in terms of planes with celestial entities like Innistrad's moon or Mirrodin's suns. And, in the case of Lorwyn, it's sun and moon as well.
When one refers to a flat world, they are not referring to it being like a pancake, but rather that if you travel far enough in one direction you come to an edge of some sort.
Speaking of which, I used to have an old M:TG book that explained the concept of planes quite well.
Basically, each individual plane is its own universe, some are as small as a few feet across (nothing really happens there), while others may be as big as (or bigger than) our own. Most of the ones we visit are between the size of a small planetoid (Sergovia and Ulgrotha for example) and a solar system (Dominaria, Ravnica, Innistrad) with their own celestial bodies. Of course, far from every celestial body in a plane is habitable, in fact most, (just like in our solar system, from what we know anyway) aren't. Which is why when we visit the larger planes, we just stick around on the one habitable planetoid (if there is indeed a planetoid).
Of course, planes can be nearly any shape as well. Some, as I mentioned, are shaped as large spheres (Dominaria, Rath, Ulgrotha), others are Donut shaped, some resemble a wheel (Alara, apparently, after the convergence, with the conflux in the middle), some are flat (Lorwyn, Rath), some are hollow (Phyrexia, Mirrodin), some have additional dimensions (Kamigawa's Spirit World), some are isles of dirt and rock suspended in the air (Serra's Realm), and some have a ground and a sky with no clear edge (Rabiah). And many worlds have even laws of physics quite different from what we are used to (Zendikar, most notably).
In essence, a plane can be any size and have any conceivable shape and/or physics.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
And according to Karn, there is at least one plane out there that is a flat plate on the back of a gigantic turtle. Yes, this is actually a thing.
We already know all about that plane: Discworld
To the original question, as far as I can determine, the concept of "planes" as being synonymous with "universe" derives from the term "plane of existence" (probably by way of D&D) which historically more often referred to the idea that there are literally higher and lowers levels of existence (similar to the idea that Heaven is above our world, and Hell is below our world).
Unfortunately, since in MtG we are not talking about worlds stacked on top of each other in a spatial sense (err, not counting things like the Nine Spheres of Phyrexia), the term "plane" is rather misleading.
An obvious reference given Nevinyrral's disc, but sadly, not an actual plane in Dominia.
Expy, sure, but not actually part of it.
Discworld in turn, is a reference to an old Central Asian myth regarding the world being held up by four elephants standing on the back of a colossal turtle.
Which in turn lead to a philosopher asking "What does the Turtle stand on?". The answer? Another turtle. Basically, it's turtles all the way down. >.<
I always thought that concept was funny. It is better in Discworld however, as the World Turtle in that lovely setting is swimming through space. Space is an ocean after all.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
It's funnier considering the "Turtles all the way down" has been perpetuated by a series of notable individuals naming the quote they'd encountered, but never seeming to know from which it originally sprang.
I understood that they were certainly not in the same planar space, but did planeswalkers who were not knowledgeable of Alara's united state consider each one as a different plane? I hadn't realised that was the case, but it certainly would make sense that way. Thanks for the clarification.
Ah, ever the vigilant warden, Barinellos! Of course you would catch my fabrication of Bolas' involvement in the conflux. I know it's no good to spread untruths in here, but I was really hoping I could sneak in a little more infamy for the old dragon.
Yes, because they were seperate planes.
You had to planeswalk from one to another to travel.
In fact in the cases of both Ajani and Tezzeret, their initial planeswalks were from one shard to another, preumsably because they were in such close proximity.
Most walkers didn't even know that they were a unified plane before they rejoined.
In Test, Tezzeret mentions that he's on Jund and Bolas corrects him by saying he's in Jund (Tezz was in a coma for the entirety of the Conflux), and Tezzeret had no idea what he meant.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Believe me, the dragon honestly doesn't need the help. His reputation is already tremendous.
Dr. Suess?
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Although he perpetuated it, it is older than that. I've seen it referenced in sources from the 19th century.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
The earliest source I've ever seen cited was in the 1700's.