Suppose that in order to create Avacyn, Sorin had to go the other way around to maintain a balance, by creating a demon that matched her?
No, because he created her to match the evil already present in the plane. Why would he create something equally powerful to "make balance", if there was already balance with Avacyn alone and the evils of Innistrad? That would make no sense and would render Avacyn's creation useless.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
The Daily MTG article explicitly stated that Shilgengar, a demon, was around before Avacyn was created and even before vampires were created on Innistrad. As other articles have said that demons naturally reassemble themselves from black mana, I suspect demons naturally create themselves to compensate for angelic influence.
The Daily MTG article explicitly stated that Shilgengar, a demon, was around before Avacyn was created and even before vampires were created on Innistrad. As other articles have said that demons naturally reassemble themselves from black mana, I suspect demons naturally create themselves to compensate for angelic influence.
From the Innistrad Planeswalker guide:
The Demons of Innistrad
Long ago on Innistrad, demons were a threat only whispered about, feared by vampires and humans alike. They were thought to be long dead, or mythical. But then Avacyn and her angels came, and with her presence a new equilibrium was reached. Vampires, werewolves, and the undead were driven back to restore the balance between humanity and the rest of the world's beings. But their retreat opened a space—an opportunity for Innistrad's infernal forces to manifest. The demons and their hosts of devils began to arrive, one by one.
While Shilgengar did exist before Avacyn, he existed in an unmanifested form (which is consitant with the idea that he worked through Edgar to create the vampires).
While Shilgengar did exist before Avacyn, he existed in an unmanifested form (which is consitant with the idea that he worked through Edgar to create the vampires).
What I got from the PGtI and the StF article, was that more demons/devils appeared, like an immuno-response to the angels (and Avacyn). In other words, there could have been a smattering of angels and demons before her creation, but afterwards, more began to manifest on account of more (and/or more powerful) angels being present.
What I got from the PGtI and the StF article, was that more demons/devils appeared, like an immuno-response to the angels (and Avacyn). In other words, there could have been a smattering of angels and demons before her creation, but afterwards, more began to manifest on account of more (and/or more powerful) angels being present.
But it was sort of implied in the PW Guide that until Avacyn appeared, there were no angels in Innistrad. There's even no clear info on how the flights came to be.
Can it be that that until Avacyn manifested, most of the angels in Innistrad were just white mana in the plane just waiting to be given form akin to what someone has mentioned with the side of the demons?
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
But it was sort of implied in the PW Guide that until Avacyn appeared, there were no angels in Innistrad. There's even no clear info on how the flights came to be.
Can it be that that until Avacyn manifested, most of the angels in Innistrad were just white mana in the plane just waiting to be given form akin to what someone has mentioned with the side of the demons?
That or they were shaped by Avacyn's guiding hand, using the white mana and the faith of the humans to do so, much like Ixidor used his arm and the art of illusion to form Akroma, or just using white mana and creating them, just as Serra did.
That or they were shaped by Avacyn's guiding hand, using the white mana and the faith of the humans to do so, much like Ixidor used his arm and the art of illusion to form Akroma, or just using white mana and creating them, just as Serra did.
Most probably what you said, after all Sorin created Avacyn PRE-MENDING. Who knows how much power he gave her....
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
O.O Could someone tell/quote me where is said that Soryn created both Innistrad and avacyn?
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From Supernatural:
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
But it was sort of implied in the PW Guide that until Avacyn appeared, there were no angels in Innistrad. There's even no clear info on how the flights came to be.
Can it be that that until Avacyn manifested, most of the angels in Innistrad were just white mana in the plane just waiting to be given form akin to what someone has mentioned with the side of the demons?
We know there is at least another line of angels in Innistrad since we have a red-headed angel and Avacyn is blond. Angels existed before Avacyn, it's just that Avayn was created by Sorin to be uber-powerful.
If a being was created by an oldwalker, it is not as powerful as the oldwalker himself, for crying out loud. A being of that power could not just ''get captured''. Oldwalkers were near omnipotent, Avaycn is not. She is, without a doubt, far more powerful than any other beign on Innistrad, except maybe Edgar, but we will have to see that.
A) Oldwalkers were not omnipotent.
B) The difference between power between a Neowalker and an Oldwalker is quite substancial.
C) I never said Avacyn was as powerful as an oldwalker. She is more powerful than a neowalker. You do realize she is powerful enough to imbune all holy weapons carried by all humans with her divine magic?
D) We don't knwo what happened to her. We don't know how they did it.
E) Beings of great power have been kidnapped before... see Dyfed.
Sorin can't just re-create her is a flawed argument, unless the oldwalkers lost their power to create after the mending.
... You do realize that planeswalkers lost pretty much all thier power after the mending.
* Anyway, if Sorin could just recreate her. bam, that's the story. He shows up, recreates Avacyn and leaves. Roll credits.
Remember that we are talking about the second oldest, quite possibly most powerful planeswalker(I am not counting Bolas) there is right now. I doubt that he can't re-create her, but that is beside the point. He wants to find her. He is xyz millenia years old vampire who just got his favorite toy taken away from him. It is no longer about createing a new one, it is about getting the old one back.
Right, he had no trouble resealing the Eldrazi... Bolas didn't need to drain Alara of it's mana... Karn could just wave his hands of wipe out the PHyrexians on Mirrodin... and any of the three could just clap thier hands and make a new plane.
^ The mending drained ALL planeswalkers of MOST OF THIER POWER. Yes, Sorin is realatively more powerful than most planeswalkers, but he's still not as powerful as even the weakest oldwalker (barring Venser).
Planeswalkers can't do massive magical feats anymore. Avacyn is a magical feat. She has plane-spanning power.
Where did it say that DFCs aren't going to be in Avacyn Restored? That means there won't be any werewolves in the set. That could lead to the conclusion that most of the 'monsters' won't make an appearance.
Not true. Nowhere does it say there won't be werewolves/wolves, just not DFC's. There is a good chance there won't be any, but its not for certain.
Most likely there will be a lot more 'good' in AVR than evil, and its a big set, so who knows where WotC is going to take it.
why cant someone create being stronger than himself? a scientist can create a massive robot, right?
That's a fair point. Though the analogy doesn't really work since a robot is made out of steel and circuts while an angel is made out of Magic.
Magic which had to come from somewhere. In this case from Sorin himself.
Now one might argue that Avacyn's power comes from the people. Perhaps like the Guildpact did before. In that case, Sorin wouldn't be the supplier of the mana to build her, but instead would be a focal point to her creation.
The problem is, if that's the case then anyone could create an angel to take the place of Avacyn. It basically negates any part that Sorin played in her creation since anyone could have done it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But the fianl nail in this coffin is the following:
THAT"S NOT THE STORYLINE. Sorin (in the trailer) flat out states he needs to find out what happened to Avacyn. If he could just create a replacment, why wouldn't he? It's because he doesn't have the power to do so. Avacyn has power beyond what is normal for an angel, we are talking about magic on a global scale.
My personal bet of what happens in Avacyn Restored, from what we've already figured out from Dark Ascension, is that Sorin finally finds Avacyn in the Helvault (see the trailer for that hint), trapped by demons, and frees her--but she's an absolute blackened mess. Sorin then manages to successfully restore her--but let's just say the job isn't perfect.
Avacyn then proceeds to kick some undead butt, not entirely caring about the humans.
Of course, this guess could change as early as next Wednesday depending on what we learn in the next Savor the Flavour about Avacyn's disappearance.
THAT"S NOT THE STORYLINE. Sorin (in the trailer) flat out states he needs to find out what happened to Avacyn. If he could just create a replacment, why wouldn't he? It's because he doesn't have the power to do so. Avacyn has power beyond what is normal for an angel, we are talking about magic on a global scale.
Perhaps he could create a replacement, but the replacement wouldn't work with existing power structures.
We don't know the details of the spell that create Avacyn in the first place. Perhaps one of the things Sorin did when he created Avacyn was create a framework spell for the faith of the people to empower her, and the Church then sprang up around this. If that's the case, wouldn't Avacyn 2.0 need her own new Church? Perhaps Sorin can create a being of Avacyn's raw power, but he can't just plug her into the existing faith structure for whatever reason, and wandering around Innistrad with your new angel saying, "Hai guiz, I upgraded ur Avacyn give me faith plz" is not going to work out when in the middle of an impending monster apocalypse.
Besides, Sorin wanting to find out what happened to Avacyn isn't a sign that he can't replace her. If I came back to a world after a long absence and found that the mechanism I put into place to keep it from imploding is now gone, I'd want to sort out why, too. Rather than, "Man, can't fix this, gotta find Avacyn," isn't it more like, "What changed about Innistrad that made my supposedly invulnerable angel randomly disappear"? I wouldn't want to go to all the trouble of making a replacement if she's just going to get nuked as soon as I leave again.
EDIT: We need to know what Sorin did when he made her and a little more about where she might be now before we can jump to conclusions. If Avacyn is in fact imprisoned in the Helvault, Sorin needs to know how and why she got there so he can prevent it from happening again. If she was somehow killed, he needs to know how and why so Avacyn 2.0 doesn't fall prey to the same trick. And if something on Innistrad has changed such that Avacyn is no longer viable, or has been stripped of her power (thus weakening her enough to enable her imprisonment), he needs to know the details so he can make a better angel, or fix the one he made previously.
Perhaps he could create a replacement, but the replacement wouldn't work with existing power structures.
"Avacyn my angel, what has befallen you. I will find you. And those who block me will answerer to my sword." ~ Sorin from the trailer
The entire point of the block is that Avacyn is Missing. Not killed, not destroyed, missing. The drive of the storyline is to find her.
Does anyone here really think they are going to just make a new Avacyn? When the drive of the entire block is to find the original.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course Sorin just can't conjure up a new one. If he could then the whole idea of finding Avacyn would be a pointless waste of time. Thus he can't make a new one.
^ Some people don't like "meta" reasons for storyline things, but honestly, they are a better predicter of the storyline.
"Avacyn my angel, what has befallen you. I will find you. And those who block me will answerer to my sword." ~ Sorin from the trailer
The entire point of the block is that Avacyn is Missing. Not killed, not destroyed, missing. The drive of the storyline is to find her.
Does anyone here really think they are going to just make a new Avacyn? When the drive of the entire block is to find the original.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course Sorin just can't conjure up a new one. If he could then the whole idea of finding Avacyn would be a pointless waste of time. Thus he can't make a new one.
^ Some people don't like "meta" reasons for storyline things, but honestly, they are a better predicter of the storyline.
I misunderstood you, then. I was thinking you meant "can't" from an in-story perspective, not a "this narrative would totally break down if he did" perspective.
Those guys who said that Sorin 2.0 would become a BW planeswalker are right on the mark. Didn't post an official prediction but I'm right in there with those guys. As of now, Sorin is like the epitome of how a black planeswalker could become good (although he only created Avacyn partly to sustain his vampire brethren's existence).
Now who wants to make a bet that the restored Avacyn would become Innistrad's potential destroyer, making Sorin lament his actions and turning this into another tragic block (ala Zendikar and Scars)?
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Gonna leave this account now cause many friends have access on this one and had posted in the past.
Now who wants to make a bet that the restored Avacyn would become Innistrad's potential destroyer, making Sorin lament his actions and turning this into another tragic block (ala Zendikar and Scars)?
It depends on whether this is meant to be the first in a planar arch storyline.
Scars and Zendikar are only "tragic" because they aren't finished yet.
I'm really hoping Mikaeus is somehow the villain of this block, just to give it a primarily black hero with a white villain. He's probably imprisoned Avacyn in the Helvault after he found out she was a created being, not a divine being.
@OBGRDGAZ, I'm expecting her return to somehow include the destruction of the Church entirely. Fits with a Gothic Horror storyline.
Well, the "Big Bad" supposedly will be Edgar, but I hope they make a werewolf a main villain as well. Green/Red is the enemy of the White/Black mixture according to Maro.
Avacyn may have been an important person to Sorin when he created her. Love interest? Family member? We don't know much about Sorin's mother.
It's possible there will be a big fight between Edgar and Sorin. The WotC article said Sorin is no longer welcome in the Markov household, so Edgar despises Sorin, possibly for leaving the family instead of staying to build the Markov empire.
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No, because he created her to match the evil already present in the plane. Why would he create something equally powerful to "make balance", if there was already balance with Avacyn alone and the evils of Innistrad? That would make no sense and would render Avacyn's creation useless.
No the Demons rose up in the vaccum left by Avacyn.
From the Innistrad Planeswalker guide:
While Shilgengar did exist before Avacyn, he existed in an unmanifested form (which is consitant with the idea that he worked through Edgar to create the vampires).
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
But it was sort of implied in the PW Guide that until Avacyn appeared, there were no angels in Innistrad. There's even no clear info on how the flights came to be.
Can it be that that until Avacyn manifested, most of the angels in Innistrad were just white mana in the plane just waiting to be given form akin to what someone has mentioned with the side of the demons?
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
That or they were shaped by Avacyn's guiding hand, using the white mana and the faith of the humans to do so, much like Ixidor used his arm and the art of illusion to form Akroma, or just using white mana and creating them, just as Serra did.
Most probably what you said, after all Sorin created Avacyn PRE-MENDING. Who knows how much power he gave her....
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
with R i'll burn you and with B youll'be maimed
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/177
It says that he created Avacyn, not Innistrad. The plane probably just formed naturally.
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
with R i'll burn you and with B youll'be maimed
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Indeed they were.
We know there is at least another line of angels in Innistrad since we have a red-headed angel and Avacyn is blond. Angels existed before Avacyn, it's just that Avayn was created by Sorin to be uber-powerful.
A) Oldwalkers were not omnipotent.
B) The difference between power between a Neowalker and an Oldwalker is quite substancial.
C) I never said Avacyn was as powerful as an oldwalker. She is more powerful than a neowalker. You do realize she is powerful enough to imbune all holy weapons carried by all humans with her divine magic?
D) We don't knwo what happened to her. We don't know how they did it.
E) Beings of great power have been kidnapped before... see Dyfed.
... You do realize that planeswalkers lost pretty much all thier power after the mending.
* Anyway, if Sorin could just recreate her. bam, that's the story. He shows up, recreates Avacyn and leaves. Roll credits.
Right, he had no trouble resealing the Eldrazi... Bolas didn't need to drain Alara of it's mana... Karn could just wave his hands of wipe out the PHyrexians on Mirrodin... and any of the three could just clap thier hands and make a new plane.
^ The mending drained ALL planeswalkers of MOST OF THIER POWER. Yes, Sorin is realatively more powerful than most planeswalkers, but he's still not as powerful as even the weakest oldwalker (barring Venser).
Planeswalkers can't do massive magical feats anymore. Avacyn is a magical feat. She has plane-spanning power.
Not true. Nowhere does it say there won't be werewolves/wolves, just not DFC's. There is a good chance there won't be any, but its not for certain.
Most likely there will be a lot more 'good' in AVR than evil, and its a big set, so who knows where WotC is going to take it.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
That's a fair point. Though the analogy doesn't really work since a robot is made out of steel and circuts while an angel is made out of Magic.
Magic which had to come from somewhere. In this case from Sorin himself.
Now one might argue that Avacyn's power comes from the people. Perhaps like the Guildpact did before. In that case, Sorin wouldn't be the supplier of the mana to build her, but instead would be a focal point to her creation.
The problem is, if that's the case then anyone could create an angel to take the place of Avacyn. It basically negates any part that Sorin played in her creation since anyone could have done it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But the fianl nail in this coffin is the following:
THAT"S NOT THE STORYLINE. Sorin (in the trailer) flat out states he needs to find out what happened to Avacyn. If he could just create a replacment, why wouldn't he? It's because he doesn't have the power to do so. Avacyn has power beyond what is normal for an angel, we are talking about magic on a global scale.
Avacyn then proceeds to kick some undead butt, not entirely caring about the humans.
Of course, this guess could change as early as next Wednesday depending on what we learn in the next Savor the Flavour about Avacyn's disappearance.
Perhaps he could create a replacement, but the replacement wouldn't work with existing power structures.
We don't know the details of the spell that create Avacyn in the first place. Perhaps one of the things Sorin did when he created Avacyn was create a framework spell for the faith of the people to empower her, and the Church then sprang up around this. If that's the case, wouldn't Avacyn 2.0 need her own new Church? Perhaps Sorin can create a being of Avacyn's raw power, but he can't just plug her into the existing faith structure for whatever reason, and wandering around Innistrad with your new angel saying, "Hai guiz, I upgraded ur Avacyn give me faith plz" is not going to work out when in the middle of an impending monster apocalypse.
Besides, Sorin wanting to find out what happened to Avacyn isn't a sign that he can't replace her. If I came back to a world after a long absence and found that the mechanism I put into place to keep it from imploding is now gone, I'd want to sort out why, too. Rather than, "Man, can't fix this, gotta find Avacyn," isn't it more like, "What changed about Innistrad that made my supposedly invulnerable angel randomly disappear"? I wouldn't want to go to all the trouble of making a replacement if she's just going to get nuked as soon as I leave again.
EDIT: We need to know what Sorin did when he made her and a little more about where she might be now before we can jump to conclusions. If Avacyn is in fact imprisoned in the Helvault, Sorin needs to know how and why she got there so he can prevent it from happening again. If she was somehow killed, he needs to know how and why so Avacyn 2.0 doesn't fall prey to the same trick. And if something on Innistrad has changed such that Avacyn is no longer viable, or has been stripped of her power (thus weakening her enough to enable her imprisonment), he needs to know the details so he can make a better angel, or fix the one he made previously.
"Avacyn my angel, what has befallen you. I will find you. And those who block me will answerer to my sword." ~ Sorin from the trailer
The entire point of the block is that Avacyn is Missing. Not killed, not destroyed, missing. The drive of the storyline is to find her.
Does anyone here really think they are going to just make a new Avacyn? When the drive of the entire block is to find the original.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course Sorin just can't conjure up a new one. If he could then the whole idea of finding Avacyn would be a pointless waste of time. Thus he can't make a new one.
^ Some people don't like "meta" reasons for storyline things, but honestly, they are a better predicter of the storyline.
I misunderstood you, then. I was thinking you meant "can't" from an in-story perspective, not a "this narrative would totally break down if he did" perspective.
Now who wants to make a bet that the restored Avacyn would become Innistrad's potential destroyer, making Sorin lament his actions and turning this into another tragic block (ala Zendikar and Scars)?
It depends on whether this is meant to be the first in a planar arch storyline.
Scars and Zendikar are only "tragic" because they aren't finished yet.
@OBGRDGAZ, I'm expecting her return to somehow include the destruction of the Church entirely. Fits with a Gothic Horror storyline.
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
It's possible there will be a big fight between Edgar and Sorin. The WotC article said Sorin is no longer welcome in the Markov household, so Edgar despises Sorin, possibly for leaving the family instead of staying to build the Markov empire.