No, if R&D had thier way Homelands would be buried and forgotten. Innistrad has nothing to do with Homelands.
Aesthetically I think they mentioned that there was an inspiration, not an actual desperate linking in terms of story (like what happened with Ravnica).
I'm just randomly linking for fun.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Thus, two justifiable "twists" are possible: 1) The ending is happy (something we completely don't expect to begin with) or 2) There is no twist (which is a twist in itself, because by expecting a twist you've basically guessed the ending, and that defeats the purpose of having a twist in the first place)
My brain hurts from meta-twisting.
Don't get me wrong. I don't know how this will end, and I'm with the camp that believes this will be a happy ending, but you have to admire how Wizards plays with our mind by purposely making us second guess (or third guess, even) something which was supposed to be "an obvious giveaway of the plot".
I know rite?
That's pretty much what you get when you've seen enough plot twists in all your experience with fiction (regardless of medium). With so many people so obsessed with originality and unexpectedness, it's no surprise that your mind instantly starts devolving into this confusing back and forth of what defines a 'twist'. Ironically, it's like your brain is being twisted in the process.
Perhaps there will be more overt and outright warfare between the light and dark forces; Avacyn and humans bringing war to the monsters, led by Griselbrand and/or Edgar Markov (we know he's up to something bad, he could end up being the most important of the antagonistic forces).
While I could see an alliance between vampires and demons, I seriously doubt ghoul callers/skaberen and werewolves will be on it (to say nothing of the other monsters). The people that make zombies are still human after all, and werewolves, even the ones embracing their beastial nature, don't seem to be the kind that wish alliance with the other monsters.
In the end, I think it is the lack of unity among monsters that will do them in. Werewolves at least will probably be gone, while of the remaining critters probably only one race will survive to stand up against Avacyn.
Well Vampires are definitely looking like they'll be a big thing in Dark Ascension; literally 100% of the promotional material for the set we've been given so far has featured vampires. And at least one of the named promos is a Demon. So if any one tribe/group is going to step up and be the "big bad" for the third set it seems like it will be one of those two, or both.
I wanna call this one now and say avacyn is possesed by grislebrand.
I'm going to call this now and say you're completely wrong. Avacyn isn't possessed, just a dictator who kills vampires, destroys zombies and mode-locks werewolves.
I'm going to call this now and say you're completely wrong. Avacyn isn't possessed, just a dictator who kills vampires, destroys zombies and mode-locks werewolves.
Like that wasn't already cliched. I, at least for my own part, am tired of the "white oppresive dictator-like ruler villain, cuz y'know, white can be evil too and people don't seem to understand that so we'll rub it in their faces by giving them lots and lots of white villains " trope already. Can't we have at least this time a damn good white savior character for once?
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
@Gizlivadi: When was the last time we had the white dictator villian? Kamigawa?
@luminumcan: First, the fact that she looks less like a saviour figure in the promo art and more like a gothic goddess (actually to be expected). Secondly, it makes a certain amount of sense. If not from the human's view, than definitely from the vampires' view. What would you call someone who tries to starve you and your family, whose servants persecute and kill you, and who gives your natural food supply (imagine farm animals rising up in revolt) weapons so that they can kill you?
Think about what she would do to the ghoulcallers, the skaab-stitchers and the other people whose practices are unusual. While I do agree that they could be harmful, what about that girl mentioned in the Planeswalker's Guide? The one who is raising an army of ghouls and geists to protect her community? Because her methods aren't in line with the beliefs of Avacyn and her church, she will be executed. Those huntsmen and women who use powers not of the Church to defend and hide themselves? They will probaby be killed as well.
That sounds like a dictator. Avacyn may be good for ninety percent of the human population, but in her effort to preserve order, she must prevent others from causing disruption in her laws and systems. And being an immortal being (Barring accidents) she'll keep inflicting the same laws upon people, despite changing time and circumstances.
And all of the above is entirely in character for a white-aligned being.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
Ehh... that doesn't really count. None of the praetors were really villains, not even Sheoldred. Phyrexia was the real villain there. Elesh Norn was just one expression of it.
Ehh... that doesn't really count. None of the praetors were really villains, not even Sheoldred. Phyrexia was the real villain there. Elesh Norn was just one expression of it.
T_T
Not intending to be offensive, but that's a really poor excuse. "Norn wasn't a villain, just one expression of it"? That's an almost funny understatement. I mean, I get where you're going, but c'mon. Just look at the character, it's obvious she was created and meant to be a villain. What you're saying is like "Hitler was not the real villain, it was the Third Reich".
(sorry for the Hitler reference here, some people still seem to be horrified when they menions these things)
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
whose servants persecute and kill you, and who gives your natural food supply (imagine farm animals rising up in revolt) weapons so that they can kill you?
Two legs bad.
That sounds like a dictator. Avacyn may be good for ninety percent of the human population, but in her effort to preserve order, she must prevent others from causing disruption in her laws and systems. And being an immortal being (Barring accidents) she'll keep inflicting the same laws upon people, despite changing time and circumstances.
Oh god, we aren't going to have Occupy Child's Wall street are we?
Not intending to be offensive, but that's a really poor excuse. "Norn wasn't a villain, just one expression of it"? That's an almost funny understatement. I mean, I get where you're going, but c'mon. Just look at the character, it's obvious she was created and meant to be a villain. What you're saying is like "Hitler was not the real villain, it was the Third Reich".
(sorry for the Hitler reference here, some people still seem to be horrified when they menions these things)
What I'm saying is that Elesh Norn was one villain out of an entire race of the things. Yes, she was a white villain, but not on the same level as Konda from Kamigawa or Avacyn may be in AVR. Spreading the focus among five villains naturally lowers the threat level of each individually. Painting an entire race as the villain made the Praetors seem less like the focus of the set. Having the White villain as the Big Bad hasn't been done properly since Kamigawa.
Not intending to be offensive, but that's a really poor excuse. "Norn wasn't a villain, just one expression of it"? That's an almost funny understatement. I mean, I get where you're going, but c'mon. Just look at the character, it's obvious she was created and meant to be a villain. What you're saying is like "Hitler was not the real villain, it was the Third Reich".
(sorry for the Hitler reference here, some people still seem to be horrified when they menions these things)
But if you count Elesh, then every colour had a villain, Jin Gitaxias in Blue is a villain, Sheoldred in Black is a villain, Vorinclex in Green is a villain, Elesh in White is a villain. I'm not quite sure about Urabrask in Red, but he's planning something.
New Phyrexia is a terrible block to use in this argument, precisely because New Phyrexia took over all 5 colours of mana. There was no clearly defined villain or hero colour. Really, you could probably make a case that in New Phyrexia's hierarchy, Elesh is a hero, since her colour of Phyrexians have structure, and a clear purpose to their goals, where the other colours don't, or are even actively helping their enemies.
(Also, as a History Major, I feel compelled to point out that your Hitler statement is actually correct. He was the figurehead for a massive organization which had many leaders who were "evil", and any one of them would have ruled just as harshly as Hitler if the circumstances were different)
White villains are rare enough that idiots still go "lol wite iz nut ebil u stupid lol". Elesh Norn is just part of a system with many villains, not the "ultimate evil" of the setting, and Phyrexia twists everything anyway.
Black and Blue have dominated the top villain niches since Kamigawa, with the remaining colours on the side. At the very least they should make a Red/Green evil werewolf if they don't make Avacyn bad.
You're reading a whole lot into that one piece of artwork. Which hasn't even been confirmed to be Avacyn, as opposed to another angel. And you're making a lot of assumptions about how Avacyn will treat the alchemists, skabaren, etc. Where in the Planeswalker's Guide has it been stated that the Church under Avacyn's leadership had treated humans (other than werewolves) so cruelly and murderously? What makes you think that this is how it will be when she returns, other than reading into the physical appearance of a single piece of angel art?
But you do raise an interesting question. Will Avacyn react agressively towards skaberen and ghoul callers, forcing them to ally themselves with the monsters?
We've never seen Avacyn ourselves. All we have are fairly vague accounts of what Innistrad was like with her around, and what the consequences are of her absence.
We've never seen Avacyn ourselves. All we have are fairly vague accounts of what Innistrad was like with her around, and what the consequences are of her absence.
I seem to remember that the alchemists and stitchers work in Nephalia because a) it's a trading province. If you can't get something there you can't get it anywhere. And b) Nephalia is further away from the Church, who are more than happy to persecute them. It's not much of a leap to assume the beliefs of the Church are the beliefs of Avacyn.
I seem to remember that the alchemists and stitchers work in Nephalia because a) it's a trading province. If you can't get something there you can't get it anywhere. And b) Nephalia is further away from the Church, who are more than happy to persecute them. It's not much of a leap to assume the beliefs of the Church are the beliefs of Avacyn.
There's a difference between "the church would put a stop to their activities" and "the church would ruthlessly tyrannize and murder them."
And there can be a big difference between the teachings and intentions of the spiritual leader of a church and the actions of its clergymen. The actions of the worst of Avacyn's priests and cathars shouldn't be taken as a reflection of Avacyn's character. There are a great many good, moral people within the church as well. Don't assume that the actions of a portion of the organization are an accurate representation of the whole, or of its leader.
No, if R&D had thier way Homelands would be buried and forgotten. Innistrad has nothing to do with Homelands.
Aesthetically I think they mentioned that there was an inspiration, not an actual desperate linking in terms of story (like what happened with Ravnica).
I'm just randomly linking for fun.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
I know rite?
That's pretty much what you get when you've seen enough plot twists in all your experience with fiction (regardless of medium). With so many people so obsessed with originality and unexpectedness, it's no surprise that your mind instantly starts devolving into this confusing back and forth of what defines a 'twist'. Ironically, it's like your brain is being twisted in the process.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
In the end, I think it is the lack of unity among monsters that will do them in. Werewolves at least will probably be gone, while of the remaining critters probably only one race will survive to stand up against Avacyn.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
For all of your Magic art needs, check out my tumblr The Art of Magic.
I'm going to call this now and say you're completely wrong. Avacyn isn't possessed, just a dictator who kills vampires, destroys zombies and mode-locks werewolves.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Like that wasn't already cliched. I, at least for my own part, am tired of the "white oppresive dictator-like ruler villain, cuz y'know, white can be evil too and people don't seem to understand that so we'll rub it in their faces by giving them lots and lots of white villains " trope already. Can't we have at least this time a damn good white savior character for once?
@luminumcan: First, the fact that she looks less like a saviour figure in the promo art and more like a gothic goddess (actually to be expected). Secondly, it makes a certain amount of sense. If not from the human's view, than definitely from the vampires' view. What would you call someone who tries to starve you and your family, whose servants persecute and kill you, and who gives your natural food supply (imagine farm animals rising up in revolt) weapons so that they can kill you?
Think about what she would do to the ghoulcallers, the skaab-stitchers and the other people whose practices are unusual. While I do agree that they could be harmful, what about that girl mentioned in the Planeswalker's Guide? The one who is raising an army of ghouls and geists to protect her community? Because her methods aren't in line with the beliefs of Avacyn and her church, she will be executed. Those huntsmen and women who use powers not of the Church to defend and hide themselves? They will probaby be killed as well.
That sounds like a dictator. Avacyn may be good for ninety percent of the human population, but in her effort to preserve order, she must prevent others from causing disruption in her laws and systems. And being an immortal being (Barring accidents) she'll keep inflicting the same laws upon people, despite changing time and circumstances.
And all of the above is entirely in character for a white-aligned being.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Elesh Norn sounds familiar?
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
T_T
Not intending to be offensive, but that's a really poor excuse. "Norn wasn't a villain, just one expression of it"? That's an almost funny understatement. I mean, I get where you're going, but c'mon. Just look at the character, it's obvious she was created and meant to be a villain. What you're saying is like "Hitler was not the real villain, it was the Third Reich".
(sorry for the Hitler reference here, some people still seem to be horrified when they menions these things)
Two legs bad.
Oh god, we aren't going to have Occupy Child's Wall street are we?
... okay, I think I'm done now.
What I'm saying is that Elesh Norn was one villain out of an entire race of the things. Yes, she was a white villain, but not on the same level as Konda from Kamigawa or Avacyn may be in AVR. Spreading the focus among five villains naturally lowers the threat level of each individually. Painting an entire race as the villain made the Praetors seem less like the focus of the set. Having the White villain as the Big Bad hasn't been done properly since Kamigawa.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
But if you count Elesh, then every colour had a villain, Jin Gitaxias in Blue is a villain, Sheoldred in Black is a villain, Vorinclex in Green is a villain, Elesh in White is a villain. I'm not quite sure about Urabrask in Red, but he's planning something.
New Phyrexia is a terrible block to use in this argument, precisely because New Phyrexia took over all 5 colours of mana. There was no clearly defined villain or hero colour. Really, you could probably make a case that in New Phyrexia's hierarchy, Elesh is a hero, since her colour of Phyrexians have structure, and a clear purpose to their goals, where the other colours don't, or are even actively helping their enemies.
(Also, as a History Major, I feel compelled to point out that your Hitler statement is actually correct. He was the figurehead for a massive organization which had many leaders who were "evil", and any one of them would have ruled just as harshly as Hitler if the circumstances were different)
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Black and Blue have dominated the top villain niches since Kamigawa, with the remaining colours on the side. At the very least they should make a Red/Green evil werewolf if they don't make Avacyn bad.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
But you do raise an interesting question. Will Avacyn react agressively towards skaberen and ghoul callers, forcing them to ally themselves with the monsters?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
We do have a stained glass window of her.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
There's a difference between "the church would put a stop to their activities" and "the church would ruthlessly tyrannize and murder them."
And there can be a big difference between the teachings and intentions of the spiritual leader of a church and the actions of its clergymen. The actions of the worst of Avacyn's priests and cathars shouldn't be taken as a reflection of Avacyn's character. There are a great many good, moral people within the church as well. Don't assume that the actions of a portion of the organization are an accurate representation of the whole, or of its leader.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)