Urza would of immediately jumped to a timeline where Phyrexia never existed. The end. lol.
I think the fundamental misunderstanding of Clockworking, from my impression, is that it doesn't allow you change the universe, you change which universe something is in. Urza wouldn't have jumped because Clockworking wouldn't help the plane that was being invaded, it would only move him to an existence where it wasn't, the original would still be invaded, sans Urza.
Of course, the practical effects reduce it to being essentially the same thing. Michael Crichton's Timeline has a good analysis of the difference between time travel and interdimensional travel to a universe that started later.
Hey, lets face it: Jace has NEVER been exceptionally powerful. In fact, Agents of Artifice portrayed Tezzeret as the better of the two mages who was only defeated because of the nezumi's interruption and a few tricks on Jace's side. In a fair duel, Jace would probably lose. After all, it's logical - Tezz is older, more experienced, possibly more intelligent and controls more colors of mana than Jace...
This is a fair assessment. Jace is only powerful against people unprepared for his mind magic. Against Red Mages, sure, he's pretty good. Against more experience blue mages? Absolutely not.
I think the fundamental misunderstanding of Clockworking, from my impression, is that it doesn't allow you change the universe, you change which universe something is in. Urza wouldn't have jumped because Clockworking wouldn't help the plane that was being invaded, it would only move him to an existence where it wasn't, the original would still be invaded, sans Urza.
Of course, the practical effects reduce it to being essentially the same thing. Michael Crichton's Timeline has a good analysis of the difference between time travel and interdimensional travel to a universe that started later.
You make a very good point. I still feel it's cheap, and it's definitely a decent retcon tool, but it's not as severe as I thought.
I was kinda waiting for your comments on this novel, expecting mostly criticism. Glad you like it.
Hey, lets face it: Jace has NEVER been exceptionally powerful. In fact, Agents of Artifice portrayed Tezzeret as the better of the two mages who was only defeated because of the nezumi's interruption and a few tricks on Jace's side. In a fair duel, Jace would probably lose. After all, it's logical - Tezz is older, more experienced, possibly more intelligent and controls more colors of mana than Jace...
I do like it. I think it's right under AoA as far as the new books go. I understand Tezz being the better mage, but they don't even make Jace seem able to defend himself in the slightest. He should at least be able to do SOMETHING. How is he supposed to be Magics poster boy if he's weaker than everyone else.
Hey, lets face it: Jace has NEVER been exceptionally powerful. In fact, Agents of Artifice portrayed Tezzeret as the better of the two mages who was only defeated because of the nezumi's interruption and a few tricks on Jace's side. In a fair duel, Jace would probably lose. After all, it's logical - Tezz is older, more experienced, possibly more intelligent and controls more colors of mana than Jace...
That's not ENTIRELY true. Tezzeret is actually a horrible mage, but the trick in dealing with this is: he has a cheat. His arm lets him mainline mana and actually gather enough to finally cast. He never had the aptitude for magic until he got the arm and without it, he has serious problems casting.
So, it's not that Tezzeret is the better mage. It's that he's better armed.
With that being said, it also needs to be stated that Jace is a better summoner than Tezzeret. His role is to sit back and construct his mind spells while his creatures harass his opponent.
Well any mage can be a summoner like how Jace is. It just is what other spells do you possess besides summoning? Nature? Fire? Healing? Mind?
Well that's sort of questionable. Chandra never summoned anything in the book. The only thing that she's summoned to date was her spitfire in the webcomic. Tezzeret also didn't summon anything. He either built things that converted things into creatures or he built devices to summon.
Liliana never summoned physical beings either. So there's quite a diversity when you examine summoning.
Well that's sort of questionable. Chandra never summoned anything in the book. The only thing that she's summoned to date was her spitfire in the webcomic. Tezzeret also didn't summon anything. He either built things that converted things into creatures or he built devices to summon.
Liliana never summoned physical beings either. So there's quite a diversity when you examine summoning.
Didn't Tezzeret summon a Sphinx or Drake or something when training Jace to summon larger creatures in AoA? That probably doesn't count because it was already there when Jace arrived, so we don't know how it got there.
Also, I think for the purposes of relating a card game to the books, Liliana has summond the spectres from early on in AoA that she used to kill the mercs, and she 'summoned' the zombies from the Labrynthe in ToM.
But you are correct, there is some diversity as to what actually qualifies as summoning.
Meh. Any book that treats Jace as the putz that he is gets a good rating from me. Of course that ending is after half a book of getting the crap kicked out of him by both sides. (He's like the eternal patsy in this book)
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Overall, I enjoyed the book, although the dialog did tend to towards the juvenile (Okay, we get it, Tezzeret was a street urchin. You do not need to use profanity several times a chapter), and clockworking was a bit confusing.
As far as the discussion is going, I think clockworking just needs to be approached very carefully (and kept out of the hands of inexperienced writers), and I think Stover was a bit... off on several of the characters (Liliana was more... promiscuous (Wow the censor on this place is restrictive) than she was in previous works, and not ambitious enough. Also, WHAT HAPPENED TO CURSE OF THE CHAIN VEIL! SERIOUSLY, WHY WAS IT CANCELLED!)/rant, but I put that off to Stover's somewhat unorthodox writing style (which isn't a bad thing. His novelization for Revenge of the Sith was much better than the movie).
To be honest, the ending issue smacks of executive meddling to me- I wouldn't be surprised if creative didn't want Bolas to stay the way Stover portrayed him. Although I really, really, really hope Tezz keeps his character development.
Just finished the book today and I really enjoyed it, overall. I love the development we got for Tezz and I hope it continues in the Scars book. Yes, the dialogue was at times very juvenile. And yes, clockworking was quite confusing, but I actually found it sorta cool and an interesting concept. I wouldn't be surprised if we've seen the last of clockworking, since Tezzeret realized that it's too dangerous for anyone to use and made it so that Bolas couldn't do it anymore. I was very glad to see the REAL big bad Bolas show up at the end...I was rather upset to see how he was portrayed as so weak throughout the novel.
Now, the only part I have a problem with is Liliana's role in the book. Since when did she get into contract with Bolas?? And why does she not have the veil? Her whole part in the book made no sense to me...as it relates to where she is in the current storyline. Wizards, you have some explaining to do.
Now, the only part I have a problem with is Liliana's role in the book. Since when did she get into contract with Bolas?? And why does she not have the veil? Her whole part in the book made no sense to me...as it relates to where she is in the current storyline. Wizards, you have some explaining to do.
Alternate realities are a pain in the ass.
And now we have TWO Lilianas running around our universe. She can't get back home unless Bolas puts her back.
Umm, in regarding to clockworking, I recalled that the Ineffable once quoted he exists in all times and no time, knowing all possibilities... could he be a clockworker all along? Or perhaps he managed to gain a collective consciousness of his many selves throughout time-space? Just a thought.
Umm, in regarding to clockworking, I recalled that the Ineffable once quoted he exists in all times and no time, knowing all possibilities... could he be a clockworker all along? Or perhaps he managed to gain a collective consciousness of his many selves throughout time-space? Just a thought.
It was likely just propaganda that he was spouting. Religious dogma of the worst sort.
And she's a Liliana from a different world. Not the one with the Veil.
Tezzeret even asked her straight if she was from another world like all the others.
And every Bolas is dead too then! All the alternate realitys are happy Bolas-free worlds. And only our timline is grimdark place ready to be eaten by Bolas.
And every Bolas is dead too then! All the alternate realitys are happy Bolas-free worlds. And only our timline is grimdark place ready to be eaten by Bolas.
Unless those Bolases(... Boli?) were clones just like the one Tezzeret tangled with. Which is likely.
Oh man, that's such a bad idea. It's getting to be as bad as the Emperor in the Expanded Star Wars universe. Is the next one going to be called Niicol Bolaas, as per ESWU rules? And does his body degrade faster than normal, so that he must take control of new dragons every once in a while? Man, Barry, you have just torn open wounds that I thought healed. Thanks!
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Oh man, that's such a bad idea. It's getting to be as bad as the Emperor in the Expanded Star Wars universe. Is the next one going to be called Niicol Bolaas, as per ESWU rules? And does his body degrade faster than normal, so that he must take control of new dragons every once in a while? Man, Barry, you have just torn open wounds that I thought healed. Thanks!
My pleasure! And the clone did degrade faster than normal. But the original wasn't gone.
@Skater: No, the chain veil arc has waaaaaaay too much invested in it to just completely abandon it. The book wasn't released, but we did get The Raven's Eye after it was supposed to have come out. So, there are two Liliana running around Multiverse prime now.
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I think the fundamental misunderstanding of Clockworking, from my impression, is that it doesn't allow you change the universe, you change which universe something is in. Urza wouldn't have jumped because Clockworking wouldn't help the plane that was being invaded, it would only move him to an existence where it wasn't, the original would still be invaded, sans Urza.
Of course, the practical effects reduce it to being essentially the same thing. Michael Crichton's Timeline has a good analysis of the difference between time travel and interdimensional travel to a universe that started later.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This is a fair assessment. Jace is only powerful against people unprepared for his mind magic. Against Red Mages, sure, he's pretty good. Against more experience blue mages? Absolutely not.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You make a very good point. I still feel it's cheap, and it's definitely a decent retcon tool, but it's not as severe as I thought.
I do like it. I think it's right under AoA as far as the new books go. I understand Tezz being the better mage, but they don't even make Jace seem able to defend himself in the slightest. He should at least be able to do SOMETHING. How is he supposed to be Magics poster boy if he's weaker than everyone else.
That's not ENTIRELY true. Tezzeret is actually a horrible mage, but the trick in dealing with this is: he has a cheat. His arm lets him mainline mana and actually gather enough to finally cast. He never had the aptitude for magic until he got the arm and without it, he has serious problems casting.
So, it's not that Tezzeret is the better mage. It's that he's better armed.
With that being said, it also needs to be stated that Jace is a better summoner than Tezzeret. His role is to sit back and construct his mind spells while his creatures harass his opponent.
...
... ...
*Shot*
Well any mage can be a summoner like how Jace is. It just is what other spells do you possess besides summoning? Nature? Fire? Healing? Mind?
Well that's sort of questionable. Chandra never summoned anything in the book. The only thing that she's summoned to date was her spitfire in the webcomic. Tezzeret also didn't summon anything. He either built things that converted things into creatures or he built devices to summon.
Liliana never summoned physical beings either. So there's quite a diversity when you examine summoning.
Didn't Tezzeret summon a Sphinx or Drake or something when training Jace to summon larger creatures in AoA? That probably doesn't count because it was already there when Jace arrived, so we don't know how it got there.
Also, I think for the purposes of relating a card game to the books, Liliana has summond the spectres from early on in AoA that she used to kill the mercs, and she 'summoned' the zombies from the Labrynthe in ToM.
But you are correct, there is some diversity as to what actually qualifies as summoning.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I'm still not sure if I like where the clockworking stuff is going but as long as they don't overuse it I'm sure it'll be fine.
Did it two days ago.
Still gotta do all of the secondary characters in the book, but Tezzeret's entry is up to date.
As far as the discussion is going, I think clockworking just needs to be approached very carefully (and kept out of the hands of inexperienced writers), and I think Stover was a bit... off on several of the characters (Liliana was more... promiscuous (Wow the censor on this place is restrictive) than she was in previous works, and not ambitious enough. Also, WHAT HAPPENED TO CURSE OF THE CHAIN VEIL! SERIOUSLY, WHY WAS IT CANCELLED!)/rant, but I put that off to Stover's somewhat unorthodox writing style (which isn't a bad thing. His novelization for Revenge of the Sith was much better than the movie).
To be honest, the ending issue smacks of executive meddling to me- I wouldn't be surprised if creative didn't want Bolas to stay the way Stover portrayed him. Although I really, really, really hope Tezz keeps his character development.
UB Wrexial EDH (WIP)
Now, the only part I have a problem with is Liliana's role in the book. Since when did she get into contract with Bolas?? And why does she not have the veil? Her whole part in the book made no sense to me...as it relates to where she is in the current storyline. Wizards, you have some explaining to do.
Alternate realities are a pain in the ass.
And now we have TWO Lilianas running around our universe. She can't get back home unless Bolas puts her back.
It was likely just propaganda that he was spouting. Religious dogma of the worst sort.
And she's a Liliana from a different world. Not the one with the Veil.
Tezzeret even asked her straight if she was from another world like all the others.
Unless those Bolases(... Boli?) were clones just like the one Tezzeret tangled with. Which is likely.
My pleasure! And the clone did degrade faster than normal. But the original wasn't gone.
@Skater: No, the chain veil arc has waaaaaaay too much invested in it to just completely abandon it. The book wasn't released, but we did get The Raven's Eye after it was supposed to have come out. So, there are two Liliana running around Multiverse prime now.