Yes, the out-of-universe references were glaring. It was a book with many flaws, all of which detracted from the overall enjoyment. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy it, I most definitely did. But if someone makes a peanut butter pie (the single greatest thing that has ever graced our plane of existence), then sticks cigarette butts into a few slices of it, it's going to decrease the overall enjoyment of the pie ... a little bit. Maybe.
The alternate reality, clockworking stuff shouldn't have happened. As a fantasy analogy, it's like finding out after the fact that the One Ring could've also been destroyed by putting it in soapy water. But, hey, these are Magic books, continuity has never been a strong point--to put it extremely mildly.
I still haven't been sold one way or the other on whether or not there are two Lilianas running around, or only one. I'm pretty content not caring, really. It could be that the pact that Vess entered with Bolas happened off-screen in the greatly-missed Veil book, but there are good points that Barinellos has brought up that make me question that possibility as well.
Bolas's character--ALL SEMANTICS ASIDE (FFS)--has been slightly ... altered ... of late. I cringed numerous times reading his prose in this book, but I also thought that the explanation that it wasn't the real Bolas was satisfactory. I could see other people not liking the deviation from the previously-established characterization, but, eh, for me it worked fine. But, yeah, I greatly miss the old Bolas. Say what you will about McGough (and God knows, I have), but the man did a phenomenal job creating Bolas's character and general attitude. He doesn't seem to me like a generic Dr. Doom ripoff. Mr. Stover, or his doppelganger, is off the mark with that generalization. Bolas was powerful, dark, aloof, and arrogant, but the main trait that I would stick him with would be "malicious." I don't think Dunjohn is quite right when he says that he displayed "no tendency to toy with a captive opponent." While Ramses wasn't an opponent in the strictest of terms, he definitely did toy with him a great deal. He took him on a tour of the planes in an effort to terrify the guy into showing how cute Bolas considered Overdark's play for power really was. He also displayed power, but usually only through posturing. "I've eaten worlds and shat out mountains, blah blah." He liked to mentally torture his opponents and lieutenants alike, but he was NEVER cocky about it.
But I still think WotC is handling his personality okay post-Time Spiral Cycle. In Agents, he was more guarded about his motives, which was certainly understandable given his power decrease. And he also stepped into the role of "Godfather" pretty nicely. I imagine this is what Bolas had to do before his ascension, manipulating factions in the Dragon Wars to try to get an advantage over his brothers and cousin. Now that he's trying to regain his power, he's had to step back into that role. I was pretty worried about how another writer would handle Bolas, but I thought that Ari handled him very closely to McGough.
And then, of course, Alara Unbroken. Granted, it was probably the worst piece of fiction I read last year, but Bolas's behavior was, for the most part ... excusable. Beyer did illustrate in the prologue that Bolas's mental health was also degrading as a result of the Meandering, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Killing subordinates and giving host to master plans involving "eat all the magic" are excusable to someone who has suffered that much mental trauma. Then came Test of Metal, which I was extremely worried about, but like I say, the revelation that it was only a bad copy of Bolas (with a bad copy of Bolas's personality) worked for me. So, yeah, I'm still happy with his personality post-TSC.
Of course, I ****ing hate Nicol Bolas, so I'm probably not the best judge there.
I'd like another Matt Stover book, though. Despite its flaws, ToM was one of the better Magic books released in the past few years, IMO. I enjoyed it for the most part, and really liked Stover's Tezzeret (although I think I like Marmell's Tezzeret better). But I guess it depends on what happens in the aftermath of the Mirrodin/Phyrexia storyline.
Just wanted to know if Test of Metal is still in the format of the 1st edition paperback of Purifying Fire (taller paperback) or is it the same size now like the expansion novels (Alara Unbroken, In the Teeth of Akoum)?
It was never offered in trade paperback size, only the mass market (smaller) size. Shame, I actually liked the planeswalker books in the "better" book sizes.
So I guess, going forward, planeswalker novels would be printed in mass market paperbacks formats ne?
Peculiar line of novels:
1. Agents of Artifice's 1st ed was in hard bound
2. The Purifying Fire's 1st ed was in a larger trade paperback format
3. Test of Metal was printed in mass market paperback from the start
Lining them up would look weird. I know all of the have mass paperback editions but I like to buy the initial prints. Too bad.
Well, I'm still going to buy ToM. Wonder who'll be the next PW to get a novel.
So I guess, going forward, planeswalker novels would be printed in mass market paperbacks formats ne?
Peculiar line of novels:
1. Agents of Artifice's 1st ed was in hard bound
2. The Purifying Fire's 1st ed was in a larger trade paperback format
3. Test of Metal was printed in mass market paperback from the start
Lining them up would look weird. I know all of the have mass paperback editions but I like to buy the initial prints. Too bad.
Well, I'm still going to buy ToM. Wonder who'll be the next PW to get a novel.
Dunno, but I hope they get someone as good as Ari to write it.
Next book is out in March, and although it looks intereresting, I really don't hold out for it to be anywhere near as enjoyable as this one. I'm off to read Cryptonomicon. Have fun!
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
I know of Path of the Planewalker II (The comic book) and Quest for Karn, the Mirroden block novel.
...well we already knew about Quest for Karn, and PotP2 doesn't count. Unless they go a different route from the last one, this release will be ENTIRELY online content just put into print form, with a comic that will simply be rereleased two months later. It's like stating a new omnibus will come out; so what?
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
So as creatives newest edition of "potential unraveling the universe" magic, I feel that clockworking does warrant some of our attention. I realize a great many of the people reading this will urge to go on and on about how it is one more retcon tool to bring back old characters, or one more Deus ex Machina to toss into a story when the heroes need saving. I am not interested in this and I ask you to keep to a minimum. What I would like to see are some rational explanations as to how clockworking actually affects the multiverse, or how you think it functions to bring about the results that it does. we were left with a vague description of exactly what it is from Test of Metal, so i have been trying to wrap my brain around it and this is what i have so far:
Clockworking in Magic first and foremost has nothing to do with time-travel. I have seen many people in this forum talk about "alternate timeline" characters, and I feel that this is not an apt description. As I understand it clockworking deals in potential timelines, not alternative ones. I am sure most of you have heard of or read about Schroedinger's cat, and if you haven't then you should follow the link before continuing.
Much like the cat in the experiment can be said to exist as both dead and not dead, actions in magic can be said to have both happened and not happened in all potential universes. The ability of the clockworker functions as the measurement of these events, and with sufficient power the clockworker can outright force the potential into reality.
It is not that they are digging into a timestream that had already happened, as Urza did, in fact it hasn't happened, or it could happen. Perhaps the braided potential realities explanation was a bit to linear for what was actually taking place.
However again this is merely my conjecture, feel free to offer your own ideas or thoughts, just please do not do so in a negative manner
Haven't we had enough clockworking discussions? This feels like the ninth or tenth time we've talked about it.
* I haven't read Test of metal, but I don't think there is a logical explination for clockworking, just like there's no logical expliantion for the spark. Creative likes to keep things vague so they can make up the rules when they need to.
In all honesty I have read a lot of complaints about how people don't like it or understand it, or how they convoluted the story with it, so I am trying to understand it better, rather than complain
Test of Metal discussion thread
there are enough information.
If you count complaints about it ruining stories then yes, the Test of Metal thread has a lot of information.
What I'm looking for is a discussion about how a new concept could be said to work in the Magic universe to better relate to ours.. not the words "hate clockworking" every three posts
The primary problem is... we already know that it IS time manipulation.
Tezzeret is forcefully pushed back in time when Renn wants to talk to him in an alternate timeline. Renn then speaks to him from fifteen minutes inm the future (or was it hours... it's been a while and Test of Metal had parts that were painful to read)
So, it's not a matter of probability control. It's actually the manipulation of the fabrics of the universe to allign it to the preferred outcomes. Even going back in time and choosing other outcomes thereby ERASING YOUR OWN TIMELINE.
One thing I'd like to point out that I've heard a few complaints about: the notion that Creative has forgotten that among conventional materials, only silver passes through time streams unscathed. Even if they have forgotten that, there wasn't a discontinuity with Test of Metal. As the OP pointed out, the conjuring aspect of clockworking is based upon physically manifesting potential. The dead bodies of the undead Lilianas and Bolases in Test of Metal were potential manifested from timelines where they died (if nothing else, Bolas-haters out there can take comfort that in some reality he's died). And even if they weren't manifested dead, the jaunt through time likely killed them, as they weren't made of silver.
Thank you, Baron, for taking the time to be sensible and civil about this. I'm glad to see someone thinking that clockworking isn't the end of tension or drama in MtG stories.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
The primary problem is... we already know that it IS time manipulation.
Tezzeret is forcefully pushed back in time when Renn wants to talk to him in an alternate timeline. Renn then speaks to him from fifteen minutes inm the future (or was it hours... it's been a while and Test of Metal had parts that were painful to read)
So, it's not a matter of probability control. It's actually the manipulation of the fabrics of the universe to allign it to the preferred outcomes. Even going back in time and choosing other outcomes thereby ERASING YOUR OWN TIMELINE.
So what you have said here collapses in on itself. Manipulating the fabric of the universe to align it to the preferred outcome is calling into being what could have potentially happened, Renn didn't go back and change anything, he willed himself into his potential victory, or at least he thought. Consider it to be both the most powerful arcane and existential act. You will the future into what it could be and it becomes it. If it was as simple as erasing a timeline, once Bolas had learned to clockwork, even if he could only do it post Mending, he would have already put himself into the position where everything he wanted to accomplish had happened.
This might be why Crucius became what he became. If you were eventually able to clockwork to all possible outcomes of all potential timelines, your physical state would probably resemble the Blind Eternities itself...chaotic yet omnipresent. It was written that when Crucius created etherium, he vanished when he realized what he had done. Perhaps the realization is what caused the creation of the Metal Island, that place outside of and connected to all of time.
Not quite, because Tezzeret experienced the alteration that Renn made. Future Renn then had a conversation with past Tezzeret from a possible future that Tezzeret lost, which would have been impossible if it was merely probability alteration.
Essentially, Renn had already won. There was no reason other than to gloat for him to clockwork, and even if he was only going to gloat, his action altered the outcome beyond what he could control. And here's the thing. If it was alteration of probability, then Renn needn't have done it at all, because instead of gloating, he'd just alter the reality around him to have the answers spilling out of Tezzeret's mouth for all the torture he visited upon him.
Instead, he ended up with Tezzeret lopping off his head and using him like a backpack. Now what idiot would alter probability to change the fact he WON to one where he lost so badly?
Not quite, because Tezzeret experienced the alteration that Renn made. Future Renn then had a conversation with past Tezzeret from a possible future that Tezzeret lost, which would have been impossible if it was merely probability alteration.
Essentially, Renn had already won. There was no reason other than to gloat for him to clockwork, and even if he was only going to gloat, his action altered the outcome beyond what he could control. And here's the thing. If it was alteration of probability, then Renn needn't have done it at all, because instead of gloating, he'd just alter the reality around him to have the answers spilling out of Tezzeret's mouth for all the torture he visited upon him.
Instead, he ended up with Tezzeret lopping off his head and using him like a backpack. Now what idiot would alter probability to change the fact he WON to one where he lost so badly?
Well it could be that Renn saw the potential future where he already had Tezzeret captured and clockworked there, not to the one where he had actually not died. While it is an extremely powerful skill, and it takes a caster of significant intelligence to even begin to master, it is still subject to human error and interference. Imagine if you could clockwork yourself to a potential reality where you controlled the world, and have your every wish granted. would you have the foresight to check to see what happened beyond that period of time, such as it eventually results in a nuclear holocaust, or you get assassinated shortly after clockworking there, or would you leap into action? Because even though you can control the outcome of certain events, your brain is still keyed to think temporaly, and that makes you impatient and rash.
I just got done reading it a few days ago. Absolutely amazing. The way the author keeps all the characters in...well, character is stunning and I was very surprised and pleased with the job he did with Tezzeret. AoA is my favorite book so far, but it's going to be a real tough tie breaker with ToM. It's almost as if I have a whole new perspective for Tezzeret now. The development that Stover planned out and the way everything connected in the end still shocks me to this hour.
As far as the swearing and language goes, I found it quite appropriate to match with the character's personalities. You really don't think a character like Tezzeret wouldn't say "☺☺☺☺" or "screw" every once in a while? Even the stupid little stuff like
Doc said, "Zombies give me the willies"
"You don't even have a willie"
It just fit so perfectly. I thought the incorporation of Doc played a very, VERY important role. Doc was the character that balanced out the seriousness of the story in it's entirety, and he was a personality you could chuckle at when the situation called for it. Perfect balance if you ask me.
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The alternate reality, clockworking stuff shouldn't have happened. As a fantasy analogy, it's like finding out after the fact that the One Ring could've also been destroyed by putting it in soapy water. But, hey, these are Magic books, continuity has never been a strong point--to put it extremely mildly.
I still haven't been sold one way or the other on whether or not there are two Lilianas running around, or only one. I'm pretty content not caring, really. It could be that the pact that Vess entered with Bolas happened off-screen in the greatly-missed Veil book, but there are good points that Barinellos has brought up that make me question that possibility as well.
Bolas's character--ALL SEMANTICS ASIDE (FFS)--has been slightly ... altered ... of late. I cringed numerous times reading his prose in this book, but I also thought that the explanation that it wasn't the real Bolas was satisfactory. I could see other people not liking the deviation from the previously-established characterization, but, eh, for me it worked fine. But, yeah, I greatly miss the old Bolas. Say what you will about McGough (and God knows, I have), but the man did a phenomenal job creating Bolas's character and general attitude. He doesn't seem to me like a generic Dr. Doom ripoff. Mr. Stover, or his doppelganger, is off the mark with that generalization. Bolas was powerful, dark, aloof, and arrogant, but the main trait that I would stick him with would be "malicious." I don't think Dunjohn is quite right when he says that he displayed "no tendency to toy with a captive opponent." While Ramses wasn't an opponent in the strictest of terms, he definitely did toy with him a great deal. He took him on a tour of the planes in an effort to terrify the guy into showing how cute Bolas considered Overdark's play for power really was. He also displayed power, but usually only through posturing. "I've eaten worlds and shat out mountains, blah blah." He liked to mentally torture his opponents and lieutenants alike, but he was NEVER cocky about it.
But I still think WotC is handling his personality okay post-Time Spiral Cycle. In Agents, he was more guarded about his motives, which was certainly understandable given his power decrease. And he also stepped into the role of "Godfather" pretty nicely. I imagine this is what Bolas had to do before his ascension, manipulating factions in the Dragon Wars to try to get an advantage over his brothers and cousin. Now that he's trying to regain his power, he's had to step back into that role. I was pretty worried about how another writer would handle Bolas, but I thought that Ari handled him very closely to McGough.
And then, of course, Alara Unbroken. Granted, it was probably the worst piece of fiction I read last year, but Bolas's behavior was, for the most part ... excusable. Beyer did illustrate in the prologue that Bolas's mental health was also degrading as a result of the Meandering, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Killing subordinates and giving host to master plans involving "eat all the magic" are excusable to someone who has suffered that much mental trauma. Then came Test of Metal, which I was extremely worried about, but like I say, the revelation that it was only a bad copy of Bolas (with a bad copy of Bolas's personality) worked for me. So, yeah, I'm still happy with his personality post-TSC.
Of course, I ****ing hate Nicol Bolas, so I'm probably not the best judge there.
I'd like another Matt Stover book, though. Despite its flaws, ToM was one of the better Magic books released in the past few years, IMO. I enjoyed it for the most part, and really liked Stover's Tezzeret (although I think I like Marmell's Tezzeret better). But I guess it depends on what happens in the aftermath of the Mirrodin/Phyrexia storyline.
Edit: Wow, post #2000.
Xbox Live - eidtelnvil
PlayStation Network - eidtelnvil
Currently reading It by Stephen King
Currently playing Persona 4
I'm really looking forward to the storyline stuff for Mirrodin/Phyrexia.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Peculiar line of novels:
1. Agents of Artifice's 1st ed was in hard bound
2. The Purifying Fire's 1st ed was in a larger trade paperback format
3. Test of Metal was printed in mass market paperback from the start
Lining them up would look weird. I know all of the have mass paperback editions but I like to buy the initial prints. Too bad.
Well, I'm still going to buy ToM. Wonder who'll be the next PW to get a novel.
Dunno, but I hope they get someone as good as Ari to write it.
Say what? Where is this announced?? What is it???
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
...well we already knew about Quest for Karn, and PotP2 doesn't count. Unless they go a different route from the last one, this release will be ENTIRELY online content just put into print form, with a comic that will simply be rereleased two months later. It's like stating a new omnibus will come out; so what?
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Xbox Live - eidtelnvil
PlayStation Network - eidtelnvil
Currently reading It by Stephen King
Currently playing Persona 4
Clockworking in Magic first and foremost has nothing to do with time-travel. I have seen many people in this forum talk about "alternate timeline" characters, and I feel that this is not an apt description. As I understand it clockworking deals in potential timelines, not alternative ones. I am sure most of you have heard of or read about Schroedinger's cat, and if you haven't then you should follow the link before continuing.
Much like the cat in the experiment can be said to exist as both dead and not dead, actions in magic can be said to have both happened and not happened in all potential universes. The ability of the clockworker functions as the measurement of these events, and with sufficient power the clockworker can outright force the potential into reality.
It is not that they are digging into a timestream that had already happened, as Urza did, in fact it hasn't happened, or it could happen. Perhaps the braided potential realities explanation was a bit to linear for what was actually taking place.
However again this is merely my conjecture, feel free to offer your own ideas or thoughts, just please do not do so in a negative manner
* I haven't read Test of metal, but I don't think there is a logical explination for clockworking, just like there's no logical expliantion for the spark. Creative likes to keep things vague so they can make up the rules when they need to.
If you count complaints about it ruining stories then yes, the Test of Metal thread has a lot of information.
What I'm looking for is a discussion about how a new concept could be said to work in the Magic universe to better relate to ours.. not the words "hate clockworking" every three posts
Tezzeret is forcefully pushed back in time when Renn wants to talk to him in an alternate timeline. Renn then speaks to him from fifteen minutes inm the future (or was it hours... it's been a while and Test of Metal had parts that were painful to read)
So, it's not a matter of probability control. It's actually the manipulation of the fabrics of the universe to allign it to the preferred outcomes. Even going back in time and choosing other outcomes thereby ERASING YOUR OWN TIMELINE.
Thank you, Baron, for taking the time to be sensible and civil about this. I'm glad to see someone thinking that clockworking isn't the end of tension or drama in MtG stories.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
So what you have said here collapses in on itself. Manipulating the fabric of the universe to align it to the preferred outcome is calling into being what could have potentially happened, Renn didn't go back and change anything, he willed himself into his potential victory, or at least he thought. Consider it to be both the most powerful arcane and existential act. You will the future into what it could be and it becomes it. If it was as simple as erasing a timeline, once Bolas had learned to clockwork, even if he could only do it post Mending, he would have already put himself into the position where everything he wanted to accomplish had happened.
This might be why Crucius became what he became. If you were eventually able to clockwork to all possible outcomes of all potential timelines, your physical state would probably resemble the Blind Eternities itself...chaotic yet omnipresent. It was written that when Crucius created etherium, he vanished when he realized what he had done. Perhaps the realization is what caused the creation of the Metal Island, that place outside of and connected to all of time.
Essentially, Renn had already won. There was no reason other than to gloat for him to clockwork, and even if he was only going to gloat, his action altered the outcome beyond what he could control. And here's the thing. If it was alteration of probability, then Renn needn't have done it at all, because instead of gloating, he'd just alter the reality around him to have the answers spilling out of Tezzeret's mouth for all the torture he visited upon him.
Instead, he ended up with Tezzeret lopping off his head and using him like a backpack. Now what idiot would alter probability to change the fact he WON to one where he lost so badly?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Well it could be that Renn saw the potential future where he already had Tezzeret captured and clockworked there, not to the one where he had actually not died. While it is an extremely powerful skill, and it takes a caster of significant intelligence to even begin to master, it is still subject to human error and interference. Imagine if you could clockwork yourself to a potential reality where you controlled the world, and have your every wish granted. would you have the foresight to check to see what happened beyond that period of time, such as it eventually results in a nuclear holocaust, or you get assassinated shortly after clockworking there, or would you leap into action? Because even though you can control the outcome of certain events, your brain is still keyed to think temporaly, and that makes you impatient and rash.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
As far as the swearing and language goes, I found it quite appropriate to match with the character's personalities. You really don't think a character like Tezzeret wouldn't say "☺☺☺☺" or "screw" every once in a while? Even the stupid little stuff like
"You don't even have a willie"