I'm pretty sure this hasn't been discussed elsewhere, but, what is on the bottom of Mirrodin's food chain? While the average Mirran probably feeds on hunted animals, that just wouldn't be enough to support an ecosystem, since only a fraction of the energy of an organism is conserved when it is eaten. Life would die out if only consumers lived on Mirrodin. There HAVE to be some autotrophs on Mirrodin in order for it to work, but I don't think I've seen any. I mean, razorgrass isn't edible right? Aren't the "trees" made of metal too? Can any of you think of any autotrophs that the rest of Mirrodin can feed off?
Well, there are at the very least gelfruits, which implies that at least some of the "vegetation" in the Tangle are actual plants (which may be metallic as well), and not just plant-like copper structures.
Another thing to worry about is water. Back in the day, the major source of rain on the plane were the blinkmoths, which naturally produced water that fell from the skies periodically. But blinkmoth populations have been devastated to the point of near extinction, so access to water should logically be much more of an issue than in Mirrodin's early years.
edit: Eating metal doesn't actually generate any energy for the organism, unless magic is involved. But I guess that should be taken as a given.
Then again, if we're looking for logic in a world where organic matter and metal are alongside each other in living things, and we accept the possibility that even the humanoid species (Auriok, Vulshok, etc) have metal interlaced with organics from birth (which would suggest a genetic code involving many things metal), then we can just as well assume that their bodies have a way of digesting metal and obtaining energy from that too?
If we assume that different planes are different universes and are thus allowed to have drastically different properties of matter, then that's even easier.
/nerd.
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Our bodies already use metals like copper and iron, but only on a molecular level. Biologically, you can't derive energy from those elements; you get energy in the form of sugars, mostly. But of course, magic changes everything. Maybe the creatures of Mirrodin have a bio-magical process which converts metals into energy that is usable by their bodies.
Our bodies already use metals like copper and iron, but only on a molecular level. Biologically, you can't derive energy from those elements; you get energy in the form of sugars, mostly. But of course, magic changes everything. Maybe the creatures of Mirrodin have a bio-magical process which converts metals into energy that is usable by their bodies.
My thoughts exactly. Though if Mirrodin has a drastically different system of composition of matter, then it becomes theoretically possible for metals to be a substitute for glucose. Along with almost anything else.
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Actually, metal has a lot of calories if you can access it. The sugars that we digest are chemically altered to release energy, similar to if we had burned them. If your digestive system could learn to oxidize metal in the same way there's a lot of potential for energy right there. Just think about how much energy you need to put into an ore to get pure metal... turning the metal into ore you get all that energy back!
For an example, search youtube for "thermite welding". What you'll see is a bunch of pure aluminum combined with iron ore, reacting to form aluminum oxide and pure iron (in the welded section) along with a whole pile of wasted energy. I suspect you could actually get away with eating as little as a screw every day to sustain yourself (if we ignore the other nutrients you need).
Actually, metal has a lot of calories if you can access it. The sugars that we digest are chemically altered to release energy, similar to if we had burned them. If your digestive system could learn to oxidize metal in the same way there's a lot of potential for energy right there. Just think about how much energy you need to put into an ore to get pure metal... turning the metal into ore you get all that energy back!
For an example, search youtube for "thermite welding". What you'll see is a bunch of pure aluminum combined with iron ore, reacting to form aluminum oxide and pure iron (in the welded section) along with a whole pile of wasted energy. I suspect you could actually get away with eating as little as a screw every day to sustain yourself (if we ignore the other nutrients you need).
I'm a metallurgist... sorry.
So perhaps evolution just shaped us to be able to process organic compounds, whereas since metal is the major component on Mirrodin, the living things are equipped with a set of enzymes and a bio-energetic pathway that can harvest the energy of metal?
The 'digestion of metal' theory would make even more sense considering none of the humanoids seem to suffer from heavy metal poisoning. This would suggest either a biologically compatible 'version' or alloy of the metal, or that the bodies are made resistant to the metal. Either one would seem to back up the 'metal eating' theory
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And it would totally work if they'd actually had the opportunity to evolve there from the beginning. However, the fact that they were suddenly transported to the plane from elsewhere is troubling. Maybe they just lived off gelfruits long enough to get used to eating metal, but it's hard to imagine such a radical shift in biology in such a short time without help from some outside agent (I'm looking at you, magic). If magic (or Memnarch I suppose) didn't help guide their evolution, then it's not really a reasonable theory. Not only would they need a complete overhaul of their digestive tracts, they'd also need different chemical compounds to transport the energy they get and a way to avoid heavy metal poisoning**. Simultaneous drastic mutation of at least three different aspects seems unlikely.
Then again, we have seen some pretty radical shifts on Mirrodin. Goblins completely changed in appearance over a mere 100 years, the Vulshok have core temperatures above 1000 degrees C... maybe we should just assume that Mirrodin promotes the evolution of organic species somehow.
**Here's a random thought. To avoid heavy metal poisoning, the best thing to do would probably be avoiding the metal getting too concentrated in your body in the first place. That's going to be tough if you actually plan on digesting the stuff, so why not set up checkstops in your bloodstream to pull the metal out at certain locations? Then your body could slowly build it up in that one spot until the metal becomes external, no longer threatening your health! Bonus that you now have cool metal spikes all over your body!
I'm no Mirrodin specialist but from what I've been reading on the forums (and don't quote me on this), it seems to be less than a millenium old, perhaps half that. Unless something epic (besides plot and concept) is driving evolution haywire, there is no way (assuming the humanoids were actually evolved from humans?) that evolution could have integrated metal into the body like that over ~500 years. Creation of semi-metal beings by Karn seems more likely to me.
As for the idea of the metal filtration, that is a very interesting theory. Perhaps on Mirrodin, metal in terms of digestion follows a feedback loop similar to fat in humans. If there's too much energy (in this case, metal) in the body and the blood, it gets stored in the body for later use (explains the precipitated metal on the skin of the living). During starvation, the body can break it down for energy if need be.
Although since this system requires a feedback loop and back-and-forth access to and from blood, as well as a signal when metal levels rise beyond normal, this would not, imo, prevent heavy metal poisoning, but would readily explain why every living thing is covered (at least partially) in metal.
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As far as I know your timeline is more or less correct, but Karn couldn't have had anything to do with it. When he left, Memnarch was alone on the plane. It was Memnarch who then populated it, looking for a spark to harvest for himself. Of course, it's in his own self-interest that the people survive, so maybe he made alterations to their biology when they arrived. Or made alterations to Mirrodin to allow accelerated evolution somehow. I haven't read those books, so maybe someone else can comment on whether or not that's possible.
I like your metal is similar to fat theory. Why do you think that wouldn't help with metal poisoning? If levels rise above normal, metal is taken out of the system before damage can be done. Might be a little tricky since we're talking about a very low concentration with a narrow window for your body to operate in, but we do a pretty good job of regulating the pH of our blood with carbonic acid as a buffer. Seems doable with a little reworking of the chemistry.
As far as I know your timeline is more or less correct, but Karn couldn't have had anything to do with it. When he left, Memnarch was alone on the plane. It was Memnarch who then populated it, looking for a spark to harvest for himself.
Not that I'm saying there was something sentient there, but weren't blinkmoths there before Memnarch first went nuts?
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The eating metal doesn't really work, I think ye're jumping too far ahead to the digestion and metabolic processes. Ingestion is a much more pressing dead end. None of the humans, elves, vedalken or leonin have the teeth required to masticate metal.
Could I see the dental records you have of these Mirran races?
Mirrodin has organic metal (whatever that means), and many animals consume this. (Red animals in particular seem to have furnaces in thier stomaches).
I assume most higher order animals survive by eating other animals. So i assume that certain animals eat the metallic plants, turn that into flesh that other creatures can eat.
Remember that Memnarch built Mirrodin from the ground up to host life, I'm sure there are many clever tricks to keep the ecosystem going.
Not that I'm saying there was something sentient there, but weren't blinkmoths there before Memnarch first went nuts?
What do blinkmoths eat?? If they caused rain, where do they get the water???
Saidin, I liked your post. I had no idea some plants actually do that!
Skibo, thanks for reminding us of organic metal. I'd forgotten that one. Your food chain theory makes sense too. Not all creatures need to be able to digest metal, only enough to feed the rest.
They were there before Memnarch, yeah. Until he made the soul traps, they were the only living thing on the plane. Where Karn got them or if he created them is unknown.
Blinkmoths are artifact creatures (At least thier only card has them as artifacts).
They may be organic artifice, and perhaps even the basis for Memnarch's designs. Blinkmoths must have lived on what little magical energy surrounds Mirrodin.
Plants could live off the energy form Mirrodin's Core, a ball of pure mana. (I would say the Green sun, but there was life on Mirrodin before that formed) Then there are partly fleshy animals that can extract energy from the metal (through oxidation processes perhaps) in the plants, then there are other animals that eat the partly fleshy ones and so on. There are also the gelfruits that were mentioned before, and they grow right from the plants. So the bottom of the food chain is the Mana Ball in the core.
Plants could live off the energy form Mirrodin's Core, a ball of pure mana. (I would say the Green sun, but there was life on Mirrodin before that formed) Then there are partly fleshy animals that can extract energy from the metal (through oxidation processes perhaps) in the plants, then there are other animals that eat the partly fleshy ones and so on. There are also the gelfruits that were mentioned before, and they grow right from the plants. So the bottom of the food chain is the Mana Ball in the core.
Makes sense, it is not that different from how it works on Earth (i.e. In real life).
Sunlight (energy) is absorbed by plants and allows them to modify absorbed minerals/other elements to create complex molecules, the plants in turn are eaten by herbivores that break down the molecules to less complex molecules, which are then recombined into new complex molecules. The herbivores are then eaten by carnivores, who do the same thing.
This is of course a gross simplification of the process, but the base form of energy used is sunlight, which would be comparable to the mana produced by the suns/moons of Mirrodin as well as the core.
Since it is known that other forms of energy can be used as a base for life even here on Earth (such as heat and chemical energy), and it is theorized that a material other than carbon (such as for example silicone) can be used to produce the complex molecules that are needed for life. It is not that far of a stretch to imagine life evolving on a primarily metallic world such as Mirrodin.
It's unclear when the suns first erupted. I know the red and green sun were created after Mirrodin was populated. So it's possible that the races predate the moons.
Titanium carbide is an "organic" metal.
(I actually have a 1 inch by 1 inch by quarter inch thick square of PURE titanium... I've broken so many different things trying to put a damn scratch in the thing... anyway.)
All organic means is that it has carbon in it.
Titanium carbide is an "organic" metal.
(I actually have a 1 inch by 1 inch by quarter inch thick square of PURE titanium... I've broken so many different things trying to put a damn scratch in the thing... anyway.)
All organic means is that it has carbon in it.
True... that's scientifcally correct, but not what they are refering to.
WHen they talk about Organic metals they are refering to things like the tangle and the razor grass, things that are solid metal, yet grow. Organic metals in Mirrodin also likely refer to the metallic growths on creatures.
Ok, well as far as the higher organisms eating the others, remember the bodies are not 100 % metal....they have meat on those bones, even if the bones are metal. As far as plant life, in magic green mana is magic of life and i believe the green sun was at one point inside Mirrodin so perhaps any plant life absorbed mana from it like plants draw water in there roots and now that its in the sky absorb mana from it like plants on earth would use light.
Biology is fun, but i place like mirrodin the magic element has to come into play...
Having not read the books, are the inhabitants even confirmed to eat?
see: oxidda scrapmelter
Another thing to worry about is water. Back in the day, the major source of rain on the plane were the blinkmoths, which naturally produced water that fell from the skies periodically. But blinkmoth populations have been devastated to the point of near extinction, so access to water should logically be much more of an issue than in Mirrodin's early years.
edit: Eating metal doesn't actually generate any energy for the organism, unless magic is involved. But I guess that should be taken as a given.
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perhaps better example would be Ferrovore?
Then again, if we're looking for logic in a world where organic matter and metal are alongside each other in living things, and we accept the possibility that even the humanoid species (Auriok, Vulshok, etc) have metal interlaced with organics from birth (which would suggest a genetic code involving many things metal), then we can just as well assume that their bodies have a way of digesting metal and obtaining energy from that too?
If we assume that different planes are different universes and are thus allowed to have drastically different properties of matter, then that's even easier.
/nerd.
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My thoughts exactly. Though if Mirrodin has a drastically different system of composition of matter, then it becomes theoretically possible for metals to be a substitute for glucose. Along with almost anything else.
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For an example, search youtube for "thermite welding". What you'll see is a bunch of pure aluminum combined with iron ore, reacting to form aluminum oxide and pure iron (in the welded section) along with a whole pile of wasted energy. I suspect you could actually get away with eating as little as a screw every day to sustain yourself (if we ignore the other nutrients you need).
I'm a metallurgist... sorry.
So perhaps evolution just shaped us to be able to process organic compounds, whereas since metal is the major component on Mirrodin, the living things are equipped with a set of enzymes and a bio-energetic pathway that can harvest the energy of metal?
The 'digestion of metal' theory would make even more sense considering none of the humanoids seem to suffer from heavy metal poisoning. This would suggest either a biologically compatible 'version' or alloy of the metal, or that the bodies are made resistant to the metal. Either one would seem to back up the 'metal eating' theory
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Then again, we have seen some pretty radical shifts on Mirrodin. Goblins completely changed in appearance over a mere 100 years, the Vulshok have core temperatures above 1000 degrees C... maybe we should just assume that Mirrodin promotes the evolution of organic species somehow.
**Here's a random thought. To avoid heavy metal poisoning, the best thing to do would probably be avoiding the metal getting too concentrated in your body in the first place. That's going to be tough if you actually plan on digesting the stuff, so why not set up checkstops in your bloodstream to pull the metal out at certain locations? Then your body could slowly build it up in that one spot until the metal becomes external, no longer threatening your health! Bonus that you now have cool metal spikes all over your body!
As for the idea of the metal filtration, that is a very interesting theory. Perhaps on Mirrodin, metal in terms of digestion follows a feedback loop similar to fat in humans. If there's too much energy (in this case, metal) in the body and the blood, it gets stored in the body for later use (explains the precipitated metal on the skin of the living). During starvation, the body can break it down for energy if need be.
Although since this system requires a feedback loop and back-and-forth access to and from blood, as well as a signal when metal levels rise beyond normal, this would not, imo, prevent heavy metal poisoning, but would readily explain why every living thing is covered (at least partially) in metal.
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I like your metal is similar to fat theory. Why do you think that wouldn't help with metal poisoning? If levels rise above normal, metal is taken out of the system before damage can be done. Might be a little tricky since we're talking about a very low concentration with a narrow window for your body to operate in, but we do a pretty good job of regulating the pH of our blood with carbonic acid as a buffer. Seems doable with a little reworking of the chemistry.
Not that I'm saying there was something sentient there, but weren't blinkmoths there before Memnarch first went nuts?
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Could I see the dental records you have of these Mirran races?
This is a magickal world, remember?
I assume most higher order animals survive by eating other animals. So i assume that certain animals eat the metallic plants, turn that into flesh that other creatures can eat.
Remember that Memnarch built Mirrodin from the ground up to host life, I'm sure there are many clever tricks to keep the ecosystem going.
What do blinkmoths eat?? If they caused rain, where do they get the water???
Saidin, I liked your post. I had no idea some plants actually do that!
Skibo, thanks for reminding us of organic metal. I'd forgotten that one. Your food chain theory makes sense too. Not all creatures need to be able to digest metal, only enough to feed the rest.
They were there before Memnarch, yeah. Until he made the soul traps, they were the only living thing on the plane. Where Karn got them or if he created them is unknown.
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They may be organic artifice, and perhaps even the basis for Memnarch's designs. Blinkmoths must have lived on what little magical energy surrounds Mirrodin.
Makes sense, it is not that different from how it works on Earth (i.e. In real life).
Sunlight (energy) is absorbed by plants and allows them to modify absorbed minerals/other elements to create complex molecules, the plants in turn are eaten by herbivores that break down the molecules to less complex molecules, which are then recombined into new complex molecules. The herbivores are then eaten by carnivores, who do the same thing.
This is of course a gross simplification of the process, but the base form of energy used is sunlight, which would be comparable to the mana produced by the suns/moons of Mirrodin as well as the core.
Since it is known that other forms of energy can be used as a base for life even here on Earth (such as heat and chemical energy), and it is theorized that a material other than carbon (such as for example silicone) can be used to produce the complex molecules that are needed for life. It is not that far of a stretch to imagine life evolving on a primarily metallic world such as Mirrodin.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Titanium carbide is an "organic" metal.
(I actually have a 1 inch by 1 inch by quarter inch thick square of PURE titanium... I've broken so many different things trying to put a damn scratch in the thing... anyway.)
All organic means is that it has carbon in it.
True... that's scientifcally correct, but not what they are refering to.
WHen they talk about Organic metals they are refering to things like the tangle and the razor grass, things that are solid metal, yet grow. Organic metals in Mirrodin also likely refer to the metallic growths on creatures.
Biology is fun, but i place like mirrodin the magic element has to come into play...
Having not read the books, are the inhabitants even confirmed to eat?
Assume that they can digest metal, it's the simplest explanation. It's not written by JRR Tolkien.