i would like to point out that in the future sight storyline, karn sealed the rift, came back, saw that jeska died, the 'walked to the blind eternities. we haven't heard from karn since.
karn is (for the the most part) still everyone's favorite artificial planeswalker.
and as i've stated about venser, fear and cowardice are seperate, though on a thin line.
venser USED to be a coward, but for the sake of staying alive, he eventually faced the fear that he would probably die. yes he's a scared chicken, and when his spark did awake he could have just said "screw you guys i'm out" he did not. why? he actually dropped some balls and got the courage to stick through.
Unless there was some very key chapter at the end of Future Sight that I somehow skipped or didn't read, where in the world are you getting that information? Karn fled in Planar Chaos after sealing the Tolarian Rift, throwing himself across the planes (and time, the book says, but we can't be sure what that means) when he felt a corruption take hold of him. He disappeared, and no one knew where he went.
Cowardice is fine in a character, if they grow out of it and develop some sort of depth. Venser...He didn't. He just didn't show much of a development over the books, and what little there was was felt very forced and unsubtly abrupt.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I like characters with faults as well. They can be arrogant, selfish, megalomaniacal, unscrupulous... whatever. But cowardice is the one fault I can't stand both in the novels and in real life.
As we've tried to argue with you before...tough.
Some people are cowards. And we're never going to like EVERY quality a character has. I mean that's part of the point of giving characters faults, is that makes them human, and you certainly don't like EVERY human you meet now do you?
Though cowardice is certainly a bad trait, the fact remains that a lot of people have it. And a lot of heroes have it to begin with and later grow out of it.
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"The difference between MTG and science is that one has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while the other has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while playing cards."
My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
The Mirrodin Leonin are based on Lions, the Alara ones are Jaguars. They aren't related to each other.
* Also Naya doesn't have blue mana or wide open spaces.
Hmm that's strange cause I swear I jaguars don't have mains yet Ajani and others clearly have them....and i also assume that they couldnt have adapted to the environment of Mirrodin....nope adaption...cant happen..right?
I have to agree, but you see, I just don't see the reason to read fantasy novels where the main character is not any more entertaining that all those average real-life people around me. Maybe you have different reasons for this, but I read Magic novels precisely because the stories, characters and locations are different from the world I live in. I don't need those books to tell me of cowardly boys who are trying to impress older girls without having a minimal chance - believe it or not, I see dozens of those "real-life Vensers" around me every day (which makes his character even less enjoyable to me)!
In conclusion: Do Venser's character traits make him human? Yes, definitely. But in my opinion they make him that kind of human most people are not really interested in.
Cowardice as a character trait can be interesting if the character in question can grow out of it, overcoming their own shortcoming. Unfortunately Venser doesn't get to have this and remains uninteresting.
Leonin as a whole are anthropomorphic lions, but the nacatl simultaneously display features of other big cats, such as tigers and jaguars. I don't know enough about feline morphology to tell if their body structure is more reminiscent of any particular species, but it seems safe to assume that they're all the same species, and the nacatl just have a much greater variety of fur colors and patterns.
Hmm that's strange cause I swear I jaguars don't have mains yet Ajani and others clearly have them....and i also assume that they couldnt have adapted to the environment of Mirrodin....nope adaption...cant happen..right?
The Alara Leonin had spots, the Mirrodin ones didn't.
Some nacatl males seem to have manes, while others do not. Compare Nacatl Hunt-Pride and Nacatl Savage. It's inconsistent. I don't want leonin to turn into a catch-all term for all "cat-people".
I have to agree, but you see, I just don't see the reason to read fantasy novels where the main character is not any more entertaining that all those average real-life people around me. Maybe you have different reasons for this, but I read Magic novels precisely because the stories, characters and locations are different from the world I live in. I don't need those books to tell me of cowardly boys who are trying to impress older girls without having a minimal chance - believe it or not, I see dozens of those "real-life Vensers" around me every day (which makes his character even less enjoyable to me)!
In conclusion: Do Venser's character traits make him human? Yes, definitely. But in my opinion they make him that kind of human most people are not really interested in.
That's not the point though. Nobody is interested in a story written about a nobody. What people ARE interested in is a story written about a nobody who becomes somebody, and that was my point. Characters may start out as cowards, may remain cowards, but will grow out of that in time, and become better for it. That's the interesting part.
Some nacatl males seem to have manes, while others do not. Compare Nacatl Hunt-Pride and Nacatl Savage. It's inconsistent. I don't want leonin to turn into a catch-all term for all "cat-people".
Actually, my guess would be that "Nacatl" would be more catch-all, as the former are clearly based off lions and the latter is more clearly based off a tiger.
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"The difference between MTG and science is that one has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while the other has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while playing cards."
My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
Some people are cowards. And we're never going to like EVERY quality a character has. I mean that's part of the point of giving characters faults, is that makes them human, and you certainly don't like EVERY human you meet now do you?
Though cowardice is certainly a bad trait, the fact remains that a lot of people have it. And a lot of heroes have it to begin with and later grow out of it.
That doesn't mean having a coawrd as a main character within a story is a good thing. There is a reason I skim over all of Samwell's chapters in ASoIaF. I don't like reading about someone who pisses his pants whenever it gets dark out at night. A character needs to grow and from what has been given to us, no growing at all thus far!
See? That's what I was talking about. All the characters on your list are previously known guys. More importantly, they're all PLANESWALKERS. If the novel's gonna take place on Mirrodin exclusively, there's no reason to have planeswalking protagonists.
I have to disagree, ther eis no reason they can't happen upon it. If Mirrodin is peaceful atm then it might be a nice world for Elspeth, even if she is as boring as a box.
Actually, my guess would be that "Nacatl" would be more catch-all, as the former are clearly based off lions and the latter is more clearly based off a tiger.
They're still the same species. Ajani, after all, has both a man AND tiger stripes. Clearly these kinds of markings are not indicative of different species, but rather a very wide scope of variation within the leonin species. Just like the huge variation of skin colors and other features found within the human species. The Mirrodin leonin just happened to represent a single variety of coloration, which was assumed to be the norm for the species.
Actually, my guess would be that "Nacatl" would be more catch-all, as the former are clearly based off lions and the latter is more clearly based off a tiger.
The reversal is true actually. Nacatl refers to the specific culture of the Nayan Leonin, and once the shards came back together and they began embracing other cultures (mostly Bant I note) they began calling themselves simply "Leonin" which would imply that was the more general term.
They made a big deal out of that back when Alara Reborn was coming out.
The reversal is true actually. Nacatl refers to the specific culture of the Nayan Leonin, and once the shards came back together and they began embracing other cultures (mostly Bant I note) they began calling themselves simply "Leonin" which would imply that was the more general term.
They made a big deal out of that back when Alara Reborn was coming out.
Ah, well I don't recall that and to be honest though I didn't think the book was half bad, I got bored of the block rather quickly.
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"The difference between MTG and science is that one has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while the other has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while playing cards."
My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
That doesn't mean having a coawrd as a main character within a story is a good thing. There is a reason I skim over all of Samwell's chapters in ASoIaF. I don't like reading about someone who pisses his pants whenever it gets dark out at night. A character needs to grow and from what has been given to us, no growing at all thus far!
YES. Though, he started to improve a wee little bit, but even then, I generally more or less skipped Sam's chapters. Except he has the virtue of slowly changing over time; albeit it took a really long time, he is a realistic portrayal of how long it'd take for someone like him to actually grow IMO.
And to toss in on the whole nacatl debate- Doug confirms that leonin is the catch-all term, and nacatl seems to be only for Naya.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
That doesn't mean having a coawrd as a main character within a story is a good thing. There is a reason I skim over all of Samwell's chapters in ASoIaF. I don't like reading about someone who pisses his pants whenever it gets dark out at night. A character needs to grow and from what has been given to us, no growing at all thus far!.
It does if it's a realistic cowardice. Not every adventurer fresh out of his township is going to have the salt to stand up to EVERYTHING they face. Sure, running away from every rat they see is pretty bad, but wetting your pants when you see an Eldrazi Titan headed your way? Well, that's reasonable.
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"The difference between MTG and science is that one has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while the other has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while playing cards."
My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
It does if it's a realistic cowardice. Not every adventurer fresh out of his township is going to have the salt to stand up to EVERYTHING they face. Sure, running away from every rat they see is pretty bad, but wetting your pants when you see an Eldrazi Titan headed your way? Well, that's reasonable.
Well, an Eldrazi Titan is enough reason to crawl into a hole and hide. The problem with it, i the character hasn't really..Changed. Much. Truth be told, he was kind of a pansy which is why he ended up where he was. Except, despite facing down the hardships, he never really got out of the cowardice.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Venser is just a forgettable character. The only things i recall about him is teleporting away from a lizard in the dessert and planeswalking away blowing up the weaver king. I can't really recall him doing anything of interest at all.
It's been some time, so they could bring Venser back as a more mature person. I'd like that. I'm much rather have a return of an oldwalker, than the creation of a similar character.
It would also be nice to have Venser come back when we return to Dominaria. It would be a nice reversal to have Venser hunt down Teferi. And i'd love to see the gang get back together now that some time has past.
Just noticed that Amazon posted this blurb on the novel...thought I'd share:
"Mirrodin—a world of living metal, an artificial ecosystem created by the Planeswalker Karn to support organic life—is on the cusp of cataclysm. When the Planeswalker Venser goes in search of his former mentor, he learns Karn’s life hangs in the balance—and with him the entire plane of existence. For fans of the mega-selling trading card game, Magic: the Gathering®, the full story behind Scars of Mirrodin, a revisitation one of Magic’s most popular settings."
Venser is looking for Karn? I guess that explains how they managed to get Venser in the set, but I never thought of Karn being the former's mentor in any way. I don't think they even exchanged or spoke to one another all that much at all.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Venser is looking for Karn? I guess that explains how they managed to get Venser in the set, but I never thought of Karn being the former's mentor in any way. I don't think they even exchanged or spoke to one another all that much at all.
Well, Karn did lend a sympathetic ear, and you know how often he bloody well takes apprentices. So while Teferi was busy, Jhoira was friendzoning him, Jodah was being mysterious and Radha was.... Radha, Karn was the only person who looked out for Venser.
Well, Karn did lend a sympathetic ear, and you know how often he bloody well takes apprentices. So while Teferi was busy, Jhoira was friendzoning him, Jodah was being mysterious and Radha was.... Radha, Karn was the only person who looked out for Venser.
Poor Venser, getting friendzoned and stomped on by the only women that could stand his presence.
Also, i can't really blame is cowardice.
He's been hunted his whole life simply because he likes to tinker with his toys, has almost no powers at all, meeting Bolas at the hight of his power among other things.
I would talk to animated silverware too.
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Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
So does this 'Quest for Karn', who we know is a timetravler at times, mean that the next major Planeswalker event will involve them ending up going back in time to Dominaria from (long) before the invasion to find a creature/object that we destroyed along the way and is the only way to combat these new Phyrexians?
Then we can have a block/novel about Karlock, Karn's half brother who was also made by Urza and can experience emotions trying to find God at the center of the multiverse, only God will actually be Yawgmoth.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
So does this 'Quest for Karn', who we know is a timetravler at times, mean that the next major Planeswalker event will involve them ending up going back in time to Dominaria from (long) before the invasion to find a creature/object that we destroyed along the way and is the only way to combat these new Phyrexians?
Then we can have a block/novel about Karlock, Karn's half brother who was also made by Urza and can experience emotions trying to find God at the center of the multiverse, only God will actually be Yawgmoth.
For what it's worth, MaRo mentioned during his twitter bonanza today that the story of Scars of Mirrodin was originally conceived back when they first created the cconcept for the plane. So they put seeds and clues for this story back in the original Mirrodin block. This is obviously just referring to the Phyrexian oil, but it's interesting to know that the entire plane basically exists just to tell this story.
For what it's worth, MaRo mentioned during his twitter bonanza today that the story of Scars of Mirrodin was originally conceived back when they first created the cconcept for the plane. So they put seeds and clues for this story back in the original Mirrodin block. This is obviously just referring to the Phyrexian oil, but it's interesting to know that the entire plane basically exists just to tell this story.
That's just weird. Why wouldn't they just do that story then?
Also why would you not alter the end of Fifth dawn to make it more clear there were people still on Mirrodin if you had a second story planned for it?
I guess they decided it was better to establish the setting on its own before involving it in a Phyrexian war? Or they decided afterwards that it was too soon since Invasion to bring back Phyrexians. As for why Fifth Dawn ended the way it did, I guess they figured they wouldn't end up ever getting to that story, or whoever was in charge at the time thought that "We'll figure it out when we get there".
Unless there was some very key chapter at the end of Future Sight that I somehow skipped or didn't read, where in the world are you getting that information? Karn fled in Planar Chaos after sealing the Tolarian Rift, throwing himself across the planes (and time, the book says, but we can't be sure what that means) when he felt a corruption take hold of him. He disappeared, and no one knew where he went.
Cowardice is fine in a character, if they grow out of it and develop some sort of depth. Venser...He didn't. He just didn't show much of a development over the books, and what little there was was felt very forced and unsubtly abrupt.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
As we've tried to argue with you before...tough.
Some people are cowards. And we're never going to like EVERY quality a character has. I mean that's part of the point of giving characters faults, is that makes them human, and you certainly don't like EVERY human you meet now do you?
Though cowardice is certainly a bad trait, the fact remains that a lot of people have it. And a lot of heroes have it to begin with and later grow out of it.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
Hmm that's strange cause I swear I jaguars don't have mains yet Ajani and others clearly have them....and i also assume that they couldnt have adapted to the environment of Mirrodin....nope adaption...cant happen..right?
Cowardice as a character trait can be interesting if the character in question can grow out of it, overcoming their own shortcoming. Unfortunately Venser doesn't get to have this and remains uninteresting.
Leonin as a whole are anthropomorphic lions, but the nacatl simultaneously display features of other big cats, such as tigers and jaguars. I don't know enough about feline morphology to tell if their body structure is more reminiscent of any particular species, but it seems safe to assume that they're all the same species, and the nacatl just have a much greater variety of fur colors and patterns.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
The Alara Leonin had spots, the Mirrodin ones didn't.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
That's not the point though. Nobody is interested in a story written about a nobody. What people ARE interested in is a story written about a nobody who becomes somebody, and that was my point. Characters may start out as cowards, may remain cowards, but will grow out of that in time, and become better for it. That's the interesting part.
Actually, my guess would be that "Nacatl" would be more catch-all, as the former are clearly based off lions and the latter is more clearly based off a tiger.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
I have to disagree, ther eis no reason they can't happen upon it. If Mirrodin is peaceful atm then it might be a nice world for Elspeth, even if she is as boring as a box.
They're still the same species. Ajani, after all, has both a man AND tiger stripes. Clearly these kinds of markings are not indicative of different species, but rather a very wide scope of variation within the leonin species. Just like the huge variation of skin colors and other features found within the human species. The Mirrodin leonin just happened to represent a single variety of coloration, which was assumed to be the norm for the species.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
The reversal is true actually. Nacatl refers to the specific culture of the Nayan Leonin, and once the shards came back together and they began embracing other cultures (mostly Bant I note) they began calling themselves simply "Leonin" which would imply that was the more general term.
They made a big deal out of that back when Alara Reborn was coming out.
Ah, well I don't recall that and to be honest though I didn't think the book was half bad, I got bored of the block rather quickly.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
YES. Though, he started to improve a wee little bit, but even then, I generally more or less skipped Sam's chapters. Except he has the virtue of slowly changing over time; albeit it took a really long time, he is a realistic portrayal of how long it'd take for someone like him to actually grow IMO.
And to toss in on the whole nacatl debate- Doug confirms that leonin is the catch-all term, and nacatl seems to be only for Naya.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
It does if it's a realistic cowardice. Not every adventurer fresh out of his township is going to have the salt to stand up to EVERYTHING they face. Sure, running away from every rat they see is pretty bad, but wetting your pants when you see an Eldrazi Titan headed your way? Well, that's reasonable.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
Well, an Eldrazi Titan is enough reason to crawl into a hole and hide. The problem with it, i the character hasn't really..Changed. Much. Truth be told, he was kind of a pansy which is why he ended up where he was. Except, despite facing down the hardships, he never really got out of the cowardice.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
It's been some time, so they could bring Venser back as a more mature person. I'd like that. I'm much rather have a return of an oldwalker, than the creation of a similar character.
It would also be nice to have Venser come back when we return to Dominaria. It would be a nice reversal to have Venser hunt down Teferi. And i'd love to see the gang get back together now that some time has past.
"Mirrodin—a world of living metal, an artificial ecosystem created by the Planeswalker Karn to support organic life—is on the cusp of cataclysm. When the Planeswalker Venser goes in search of his former mentor, he learns Karn’s life hangs in the balance—and with him the entire plane of existence. For fans of the mega-selling trading card game, Magic: the Gathering®, the full story behind Scars of Mirrodin, a revisitation one of Magic’s most popular settings."
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Well, Karn did lend a sympathetic ear, and you know how often he bloody well takes apprentices. So while Teferi was busy, Jhoira was friendzoning him, Jodah was being mysterious and Radha was.... Radha, Karn was the only person who looked out for Venser.
Poor Venser, getting friendzoned and stomped on by the only women that could stand his presence.
Also, i can't really blame is cowardice.
He's been hunted his whole life simply because he likes to tinker with his toys, has almost no powers at all, meeting Bolas at the hight of his power among other things.
I would talk to animated silverware too.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Then we can have a block/novel about Karlock, Karn's half brother who was also made by Urza and can experience emotions trying to find God at the center of the multiverse, only God will actually be Yawgmoth.
Are you joking or serious?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
That's just weird. Why wouldn't they just do that story then?
Also why would you not alter the end of Fifth dawn to make it more clear there were people still on Mirrodin if you had a second story planned for it?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
... well, those were the plots to the two Star Trek movies after The Search For Spock, so... you decide?