And that affected in his maturity and ability in any way?
Besides, ALL planeswalkers are now of the "neo-walker" variety. The Mending didn't change how new sparks developed, it fundamentally changed the way all sparks function, including Venser's if he is still alive. Which he shouldn't be. Because he'd be hundreds of years old. And he's lame.
No way at all. I was adding it to the list of contributions that he had made beyond giving Jhoria a handy teleportation device.
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
WHY do people want that magic rock back!? He was a boring coward in Time Spiral whose importance and personality could just be replaced with a macguffin of the stone variety. May Venser be dead and blasted!
Besides, why not give Venser one last chance? Sure Time Spiral cycle was a damn blunder but Venser was practically new to the job of being a Planeswalker.
Though I suppose that is to much to ask. After all nobody apparently wants to clean up after themselves and fix the mess of a walker we know as Venser. Lets say hes a 200 Years old and found some way to temporarily extend his life. In that time period that is enough time for someone to change their personality but not make their old personality entirely obsolete.
Get where I am poking at? It's fine and dandy to complain about the problem in the past, but it doesn't help fix the present for the future. If yesterday's problem isn't fixed today, that day just stacks another day as a reminder of the problem instead of solving it as would no longer be a reminder.
To Summarize: Venser needs to be adjusted to be more interesting to the readers, otherwise no one will like him and those three books during Time Spiral block are just going to serve as a heavier reminder when the time comes for thinking of what old characters could still be used in the story.
I never actually finished Teeth, come to think of it. It's sitting in my room somewhere, in the box of books that I never finished and probably never, ever intend to finish.
Yeah, ☺☺☺☺ is a pretty apt reaction from me as well. Maybe he suddenly improved his writing skills since then, though? Uh, and the muses and the leanansidhe and whoever else is responsible for inspired writing went and paid him a visit?
On the note of Venser- he wasn't well developed as a character. He was a bit...like a rock. Literally, just there and there. Sitting. Maybe contributing a little here and there, but my mental image of him was a balding, short, potbellied man screaming whenever danger game. So yeah, maybe he could've shaped up since then. But that first impression of the short fat screaming man is still there.
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Understandable. Though I feel the following stories after the Meandering are rushed productions. The story doesn't feel right... I will show what I mean.
Quote from Teferi, Future Sight Pg. 301 »
"Good. I've always been an academic... a student, a researcher, an experimenter. Even as a wizard and a planeswalker, I always had pupils. Knowledge is priceless, Venser. far more valuable than power."
"My favor is this: Share what you have learned with others. There have to be more beings like you and Radha out there. They will be as diverse and as different as you are from Radha, but they will have the same potential. If you meet them, if it's possible, encourage them to develop their skills. Help them to be planeswalkers, but also help to be what they can be, what they want to be. Most importantly, help them to what they ought to be."
Which should sound like Teferi was referring to the 5 walkers we get in Lorwyn who are indeed "Diverse and Different" from one another. That Venser was supposed to teach these five what he was taught and help them grow.
I get the feeling that Venser was meant to have a Planeswalker card, not a Legend card. With the name for that card being:
Venser, Artificer of Urborg
Yet because the designers were apparently unable to finish all the tinkering in making the Planeswalker permanent we all know and Love/Hate, they bumped Venser down to a Legend card instead.
I also get the feeling that Venser, Shaper Savant's "Bounce/Remand" ability was just one of his plus or minus abilities. IE: [-4] Return target spell or permanent to it's owner's hand. You may activate this ability during an opponent's turn.
I feel our character Venser, was in a way, robbed. He was set on basically a mission by Teferi who also gave him true and honest wisdom and advice to those he meet who are the Braidywalkers who are mere mortals with powerful magic. (Not on a world destroying scale of magic though.)
Yet we have these stories instead because it's almost like starting from Square 1 all over again. A fresh slate if you will to cover tracks.
Jhoira has no means of "Plane Hopping" and is currently in a romance for all we know but is most likely still alive. Venser MUST have died if it's 150 years into the future. Teferi most likely aged and died as well if we are flung that far into the future. Karn's whereabouts are unknown to us. Jeska died when sealing the last rift so she may finally rest in peace with her sibling Kamahl in the afterlife.
Venser, Artificer of Urborg2UU
Planeswalker - Venser (R)
[+?]: Insert Here Ability Fitting For Venser.
[-4]: Return target spell or permanent to it's owner's hand. You may activate this ability during an opponent's turn.
[-?]: Insert Ultimatum Ability For Venser Here.
{2}
I honestly believe there was meant to be more story to Venser but it was scrapped and we get the "Clean Slate" effect that new books present us with.
Anyway lets hope Karn doesn't suck in this new novel he is in. After all, Karn does reek of Nostalgia to us old players. If he does get butchered, Urza help us all.
Anyway I have question: Wasn't Memnarch MELTED back down into the Mirari? How would the oil still be there? Is the oil self replicating in that a small portion of it hid in the smallest part of Memnarch/Mirari and just happened to make more of itself and start seeping into Karn and try to Mind Control Karn?
IMHO, the Mending was very last minute and Creative trying to figure a way out without killing all the oldwalkers. So yeah, rushed and contrived are good words.
I mean, it is fully possible that Venser was slated to actually be more, and that he did go on and become a great teacher. Maybe he taught Jace's mentor, or something. It's just that in the presentation in the book, he wasn't exactly given a savory spotlight, but the card design he had differed a bit from the character in the book, so I get what you mean. They just don't mesh- I mean, the flavor text on his card does not at all fit the Venser from the books.
I feel like the idea of having a walker with instant speed abilities would give me a headache trying to comprehend the rules for it. I mean, would it get priority on certain phases, etc?
So yes, Venser probably had begun life as a much more awe inspiring and worthy card. Except...Yeah.
You know, I really would've liked to have a short story collection of various one shots from Time Spiral. Just like, snapshots of where people ended up- Teferi, for instance, after basically dooming his homeland, and Jhoria and Jodah and just the general impact and recovery from the time rifts.
I don't know. I'm personally kind of afraid of how it'll turn out with Wintermute writing it- I mean, Teeth just. It just wasn't there for me; maybe I'm being a little too critical of it, but his characters were very static and stiff and the writing itself, yeah. That said, I never finished it so it might've gotten better.
Yes, Memnarch is now the Mirari. Which is where we now stand divided on what this actually means. I mean, don't think of the oil as oil, and more of a contagion or virus. A computer virus that has a liquid oily form. It's possible that Karn burned away the corruption when he melted him down, which is what I feel happened, but we don't actually know why Karn was running. Except, you know, the corruption which does have some implications.
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Worst case Scenario to why Karn is running like there is no tomorrow: Yawgmoth is Back.
Honestly that would just be one of those "What... The... Fu-" *Brain shuts down* moments. I really want to believe that Mirari still has some mind of it's unmelted self left as it tries to take over Karn's body with the assistance of the "Oil", but that is pulling at straws.
EDIT: Glad to hear your thoughts on my venser thinking. I really hope I am not thinking to hard on it, but yes it does feel very rushed and does not mesh well with how they continued the story and created the Venser mechanically from the story.
If I skip to the end of Quest for Karn, and see the name Yawgmoth, I'm going to scream, burn the book, and quit reading block novels.
I'm in the camp that the Mirari as it was before, already had some level of sentience- after all, what good is a probe if it can't observe anything? It did show some level of...something when it called to Chainer, so I feel like that Karn probably just wiped the hardware and reinstalled the base operating system. Like what you do when your computer gets a really, really bad virus.
I personally believe that they made the card first, then the story came and they were like 'Wait! We need a spotlight on this new walker!' or vice versa. Or they were like 'Wait! The Mending! Ach- oh, Venser! Here, write him a story! Go!'. There's usually some level of parallels between the card and flavor- see Teferi. He fit pretty well. Venser...Not? I don't know- to me, it's one of those wasted opportunities that they never explored.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
And that affected in his maturity and ability in any way?
Besides, ALL planeswalkers are now of the "neo-walker" variety. The Mending didn't change how new sparks developed, it fundamentally changed the way all sparks function, including Venser's if he is still alive. Which he shouldn't be. Because he'd be hundreds of years old. And he's lame.
Well, he WAS an artificer, so he could have created a construct where he transfered his mind into. Think of the brain in a jar trope. So he could very well be still alive, if creative wants to.
@ Tezzeret: If someone says something is bad, some will either defend it regardless or just love that something anyway.
Well lets see list of possibilities for those searching for Karn that are not Tezzeret:
- Jace (Because he can be stuffed into any story if WotC wills it)
- Elspeth (Really, Really, Why Would She?)
- Venser (Old geezer if he were to show up unless he is somehow still young looking)
- Chandra (Does she even know about Karn?)
- Liliana Vess (Advice on the chain veil and how to beat her demons quicker? Seems the most plausible)
- Sarkhan (I doubt)
- Ajani (Wouldn't he be better off tending to his village and other places like Bant?)
- Nicol Bolas (Because he just knows?)
- Garruk (Yeah, no. I doubt nature boy wants to do with anything artificial or represents civilization)
- Sorin (Well the man does have a To-Do list and the Eldrazi was just one out of however many)
- Nissa (Ha! ha! No. Look at Garruk's)
I'm really hoping they drop the planeswalker book lines and simple integrate them into the classic 3-book-block setup.
Ajani (Wouldn't he be better off tending to his village and other places like Bant?)
Ajani left Bant, however, the old Mirrodin was home to a lot of leonin, which look strikingly similar to Ajani and were white-aligned. I wouldn't be surprised to see him plane-hop and find them and go "ZOMG cat people just like me!"
Elspeth (Really, Really, Why Would She?)
Elspeth is still plane-hopping in search for a home. She also hates seeing good things corrupted. Perhaps she will finally make a stand, she and Karn seem to have a lot in common, maybe Karn will apprenticize her.
Liliana Vess (Advice on the chain veil and how to beat her demons quicker? Seems the most plausible)
it wouldn't surprise me if one or more of Liliana's demon-pact buddies was on Mirrodin, what with it getting corrupted and all.
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My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
Ajani left Bant, however, the old Mirrodin was home to a lot of leonin, which look strikingly similar to Ajani and were white-aligned. I wouldn't be surprised to see him plane-hop and find them and go "ZOMG cat people just like me!"
All the souls on Mirrodin were stolen by Memnarch to populate his new world. The Leonin weren't actually from Mirrodin (and potentially were even originally from Alara) so I doubt Ajani would go there to visit them. I also thought that all the souls except Glissa, Slobad, and Geths head were released from Mirrodin at the end of the novels? The same goes for Lillianas demons, based on the ending of the Mirrodin novels, there weren't any demons left at the end.
Reread the ending of Mirrodin; so Glissa flared at the end and she restored Slobad, right? That means that she's still a walker, depending on when the Mirrodin timeline synchs up of course. She and/or Slobad (or even Geth) could be the one(s) looking for Karn. Something may be happening on Mirrodin and they're trying to find Karn to stop it. Phyrexia is still around as well, Yawgmoth dying didn't do anything to Phyrexia itself (it survived it's previous ruler/founder/etc dying in the core). The Phyrexians could have found a way to Mirrodin and are trying to corrupt it to make a new Phyrexia, or to use it's secrets to do the typical bad stuff that fiendish things do.
WHY do people want that magic rock back!? He was a boring coward in Time Spiral whose importance and personality could just be replaced with a macguffin of the stone variety. May Venser be dead and blasted!
Quote from Tezzeret »
Agreed. Weak, cowardly, boring... I really don't get why some people miss him...
I don't know, some us actually like characters with faults. It opens up possibilities of future characterization. Making Venser be a cowardly everyman actually made Time Spiral better than people give it credit for. He filled a niche for the reader - we were dragged into that journey with him, we observed all the craziness that he observed, etc. It's a pretty common storytelling device.
I would rather take Venser over the other new walkers any day of the week. Better a cowardly protagonist than another one that we watch from a distance as they emotionlessly complete a task that we have no reason to believe they actually care about.
That said, remember that a lot of time has passed and Venser is likely old and past the humanly faults that made him a good character. I'm sure if he returns he will be as stoic as the rest of them, and mindlessly achieve a goal simply because the author tells him to.
I don't know, some us actually like characters with faults. It opens up possibilities of future characterization. Making Venser be a cowardly everyman actually made Time Spiral better than people give it credit for. He filled a niche for the reader - we were dragged into that journey with him, we observed all the craziness that he observed, etc. It's a pretty common storytelling device.
I would rather take Venser over the other new walkers any day of the week. Better a cowardly protagonist than another one that we watch from a distance as they emotionlessly complete a task that we have no reason to believe they actually care about.
That said, remember that a lot of time has passed and Venser is likely old and past the humanly faults that made him a good character. I'm sure if he returns he will be as stoic as the rest of them, and mindlessly achieve a goal simply because the author tells him to.
People want to read about mighty heroes battling impossible odds, and winning. Nobody wants to read about someone who is as human as they are because that would be seen as "Dull" and "Boring". Kind of like why I know people who would rather play an Orc than a Human in a D&D Campaign because playing what you already are sounds so...ridiculous. As it is all a painful reminder of your life as an Run of the Mill, human if something is just like you. Which is also known as Escapism.
I personally prefer Venser for those traits of showing human qualities. I've written characters who show those human traits, I've written characters that do the "Mindlessly Carry Out Missions Because Author Said So!".
In D&D that is really the formula when your a low level 1 newbie of "Go Mindlessly Do Your Task Because The Storyteller Said So!". Your at Point A, go to Point B and Retrieve C and come back to A but C goes horribly wrong because of D and now you must E to save the day. If the story does well go and make the sequel F.
I bring up D&D because it's also an Escapism that does something similar.
Also Venser is a very Antihero-ish character. He doesn't follow the standard Heroic Planeswalker walk of life like many do yet he is a protagonist.
The traditional hero type is classically depicted to possess an image that is larger than life. They are generally expected to be more physically attractive, stronger, braver, more clever or charismatic than the average everyman. Unlikely heroes are simply characters who may not be conspicuously flawed, but simply ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstances.
We live in a time of apparently the recession still going on and people seek escapes out of reality. A human thing to do.
Tezzeret and Barinellos dislike Venser because he is in reality about as human as they are.
Quote from Barinellos »
WHY do people want that magic rock back!? He was a boring coward in Time Spiral whose importance and personality could just be replaced with a macguffin of the stone variety. May Venser be dead and blasted!
Quote from Tezzeret »
Agreed. Weak, cowardly, boring... I really don't get why some people miss him...
Reality really loves to bite you in the rear to remind you that it's there.
I like characters to have faults. I like them to be human and to have weaknesses. Venser...Not a well done version of that, though. He didn't mature much in the span of the three books, which is why I didn't like him. For me, a character has to be sympathetic on some level of reasoning, or display traits that I would like to see, etc. and etc. I guess his characterization was just a little stiff and not that well handled, and it didn't come across well for me.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
People want to read about mighty heroes battling impossible odds, and winning. Nobody wants to read about someone who is as human as they are because that would be seen as "Dull" and "Boring".
Also Venser is a very Antihero-ish character. He doesn't follow the standard Heroic Planeswalker walk of life like many do yet he is a protagonist.
We live in a time of apparently the recession still going on and people seek escapes out of reality. A human thing to do.
Tezzeret and Barinellos dislike Venser because he is in reality about as human as they are.
Actually you are describing exactly why I LIKE Jace. He's clever, but not more so than everyone around him. He's got very human drives to seek comfort and companionship and NOT act like a hero (Zendikar withstanding) seeking only what is best for himself at any given moment. The problem is that Venser shares none of these traits. He's human, but he's a coward that just got dragged along with beings immensely more powerful than himself and he didn't have enough spine to say "No more". Most of his "help" came because he thought Jhoira was cute and he was trying to impress the millenia old girl. (and I love that he got friend-zoned. HARD.)
He didn't mature over the course of three books as Giallarhorn said. He had no traits I wanted to read about, nor any traits to make me sympathetic to him..
He was, as I claimed, a magic rock for Teferi, Bolas, and everyone else to look at and comment how unusual he was. That was the span of what purpose he had in the book. The other magic rock in the book, on the other hand, didn't ACT like the damn thing they were. Radha had a personality outside being attached to the beings she was drug along with. She had her own goals and motivations. Venser's goals were stupid. "Leave Urborg; I left Urborg; I want to go back home; I wonder if Jhoira likes me."
He was the goofy loser teenager. He didn't fit and it's astounding Windgrace was so incompetent that he didn't snuff Venser out years ago.
All the souls on Mirrodin were stolen by Memnarch to populate his new world. The Leonin weren't actually from Mirrodin (and potentially were even originally from Alara) so I doubt Ajani would go there to visit them. I also thought that all the souls except Glissa, Slobad, and Geths head were released from Mirrodin at the end of the novels? The same goes for Lillianas demons, based on the ending of the Mirrodin novels, there weren't any demons left at the end.
Reread the ending of Mirrodin; so Glissa flared at the end and she restored Slobad, right? That means that she's still a walker, depending on when the Mirrodin timeline synchs up of course. She and/or Slobad (or even Geth) could be the one(s) looking for Karn. Something may be happening on Mirrodin and they're trying to find Karn to stop it. Phyrexia is still around as well, Yawgmoth dying didn't do anything to Phyrexia itself (it survived it's previous ruler/founder/etc dying in the core). The Phyrexians could have found a way to Mirrodin and are trying to corrupt it to make a new Phyrexia, or to use it's secrets to do the typical bad stuff that fiendish things do.
[/spoiler]
The Leonin couldn't have been from Alara, simply because they were returned to their home along with the goblins, elves, and Nuerok humans. The timeline doesn't match up for that, since Mirrodin only happened about 200-250 years ago.
As for Glissa, her spark didn't ignite. What happened is that Memnarch and Glissa fell into the Ascension web and Slobad received her spark. He used it to restore Glissa and the rest of the life on Mirrodin, but since the soul traps were by and large broken, the life just returned to where it came from and the spark went bye-bye.
Next up, to Phyrexia. Yawgmoth dying actually DOES have an effect on Phyrexia, as an artificial plane, was DYING without its creator there to maintain its balance. This is mentioned in the Thran when Dyfed was escorting Yawgmoth around. Then there is the fact that Urza and his titans set off Soul Bombs that blew up about 9/10's of the plane as well.
Most of his "help" came because he thought Jhoira was cute and he was trying to impress the millenia old girl. (and I love that he got friend-zoned. HARD.)
I choked and spilled coffee all over myself laughing when I read that. Thankfully, it was lukewarm.
I do wish they explained the whole Ascension web a bit more- the transference of a spark would delve into a lot of the nature of the spark, and answer some very old questions about it. And mostly, the comment Karn gave about all the souls that were swirling around the goblin's head.
Also on the note of Phyrexia, as mentioned in the Thran, Yawgmoth had literally become the plane towards the end. The plane itself had gained some level of sentience, or what seemed like it from what Rebbec experienced while she was there. So over time, it'd make sense that being holed up in the ninth sphere would only deepen the connection, so Phyrexia literally has lost its 'brain'. Further this also by the fact that most Phyrexians were only mindless, and thus, without a guiding mind, were very useless.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
All the souls on Mirrodin were stolen by Memnarch to populate his new world. The Leonin weren't actually from Mirrodin (and potentially were even originally from Alara) so I doubt Ajani would go there to visit them. I also thought that all the souls except Glissa, Slobad, and Geths head were released from Mirrodin at the end of the novels? The same goes for Lillianas demons, based on the ending of the Mirrodin novels, there weren't any demons left at the end.
Reread the ending of Mirrodin; so Glissa flared at the end and she restored Slobad, right? That means that she's still a walker, depending on when the Mirrodin timeline synchs up of course. She and/or Slobad (or even Geth) could be the one(s) looking for Karn. Something may be happening on Mirrodin and they're trying to find Karn to stop it. Phyrexia is still around as well, Yawgmoth dying didn't do anything to Phyrexia itself (it survived it's previous ruler/founder/etc dying in the core). The Phyrexians could have found a way to Mirrodin and are trying to corrupt it to make a new Phyrexia, or to use it's secrets to do the typical bad stuff that fiendish things do.
Yes, they WERE, but clearly, some kind of life has returned to Mirrodin, might be some of the same.
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My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
The Leonin couldn't have been from Alara, simply because they were returned to their home along with the goblins, elves, and Nuerok humans. The timeline doesn't match up for that, since Mirrodin only happened about 200-250 years ago.
...wow. Now there's a wallbanger for you.
Let's see, where to begin...okay here we go:
1.) Leonin, goblins, elves, and Neurok? Are you kidding?? There were dozens of other known species and cultures that were seen in the books and the cards! Even if you're going with the outdated argument that only humanoid creatures have souls, which I highly doubt is the case in Dominia, there's Auriok, Moriok, Vulshok, Sylvok, nim, vampires, vedalken, sliths, trolls, loxodon...you get my point.
2.) 200-250 years ago? I'm sorry, we can't say that with any certainty just yet; the time scale within Mirrodin and in relation to other planes is still up in the air. Given the massive amount of time that transpired within Mirrodin from when it was Argentum to when Karn returned, the fact that only 300 years transpired in other planes between those events, and the ambiguity of which happened first, Karn disappearing or returning to Mirrodin, it isn't clear at all. Even barring that, we have little idea how much time has passed since the Mending and recent storylines.
3.) And now, the least sensical part of the argument: the leonin couldn't have been from Alara, because they were returned to their home...wait, what? How does that make any sense?! You think that for the leonin of Mirrodin to have come from Alara, they all had to be abducted by soul traps?! What...what?! No no no, powerful though the soul traps may have been, they were not powerful enough to abduct an ENTIRE SPECIES from a plane without a trace! It's still perfectly possible for leonin to have come from Alara initially, Mirrodin in no way muddles that up.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
2.) 200-250 years ago? I'm sorry, we can't say that with any certainty just yet; the time scale within Mirrodin and in relation to other planes is still up in the air. Given the massive amount of time that transpired within Mirrodin from when it was Argentum to when Karn returned, the fact that only 300 years transpired in other planes between those events, and the ambiguity of which happened first, Karn disappearing or returning to Mirrodin, it isn't clear at all. Even barring that, we have little idea how much time has passed since the Mending and recent storylines.
? Mirrodin happened between between the end of scourge and the mending. Slobad ascended as an oldwalker... he couldn't have done that post-mending.
Alara was broken up by then. Unless we are using the "Time works differently on different planes" reasoning, at which point there's no real reason to even dicsuss dates or events in releation to each other.
* Though if Alara does have accelerated time, then Bolas would have surely died waiting for the conflux.
3.) And now, the least sensical part of the argument: the leonin couldn't have been from Alara
The Mirrodin Leonin are based on Lions, the Alara ones are Jaguars. They aren't related to each other.
* Also Naya doesn't have blue mana or wide open spaces.
1.) Leonin, goblins, elves, and Neurok? Are you kidding?? There were dozens of other known species and cultures that were seen in the books and the cards! Even if you're going with the outdated argument that only humanoid creatures have souls, which I highly doubt is the case in Dominia, there's Auriok, Moriok, Vulshok, Sylvok, nim, vampires, vedalken, sliths, trolls, loxodon...you get my point.
I wasn't making an argument about souls here. We had clear evidence that the Leonin, Nuerok, Elves, and Goblins formed an alliance once they were returned to their home plane. And they met by the SEA.
2.) 200-250 years ago? I'm sorry, we can't say that with any certainty just yet; the time scale within Mirrodin and in relation to other planes is still up in the air. Given the massive amount of time that transpired within Mirrodin from when it was Argentum to when Karn returned, the fact that only 300 years transpired in other planes between those events, and the ambiguity of which happened first, Karn disappearing or returning to Mirrodin, it isn't clear at all. Even barring that, we have little idea how much time has passed since the Mending and recent storylines.
Scourge happened 100 years after the Invasion, and THAT is when Karn left Argentum. Time flowed normally at that point, we KNOW this to be true.
Now, suddenly the timeline escalates when Karn leaves and Memnarch takes over... gee, it isn't like Memnarch had powerful delusions that warped the fabric of space and kept Karn out of his own plane... wait, yes he did.
As Skibo pointed out, Slobad ascended to oldwalker status. What's more, during Planar Chaos, Karn was standing outside an EMPTY MIRRODIN with Jeska 300 years after the Invasion.
Next, we DO have a good idea of how long has passed, even if it is slightly vague. Approximately a century has passed since the mending, citing Liliana Vess. Oh, but wait, she could be lying. Sure, but then again, if we take everything every character says as a possibly lie, then we have no reason to believe anything anybody says ever.
And for the record, I was stating that when Memnarch changed the name of Argentum to Mirrodin and began abducting life is the start of the 200-250 years ago. It still ended before the mending, regardless of everything else. Mirrodin's storyline might have only lasted 100 years on the outside world.
3.) And now, the least sensical part of the argument: the leonin couldn't have been from Alara, because they were returned to their home...wait, what? How does that make any sense?! You think that for the leonin of Mirrodin to have come from Alara, they all had to be abducted by soul traps?! What...what?! No no no, powerful though the soul traps may have been, they were not powerful enough to abduct an ENTIRE SPECIES from a plane without a trace! It's still perfectly possible for leonin to have come from Alara initially, Mirrodin in no way muddles that up.
No, it's not a matter of the soul traps having taken everybody, it's a matter of location and species they interacted with not being found upon Naya. Skibo already pointed that out.
If you haven't read Fifth Dawn, then you shouldn't criticize those of us who have that correct you.
i would like to point out that in the future sight storyline, karn sealed the rift, came back, saw that jeska died, the 'walked to the blind eternities. we haven't heard from karn since.
karn is (for the the most part) still everyone's favorite artificial planeswalker.
and as i've stated about venser, fear and cowardice are seperate, though on a thin line.
venser USED to be a coward, but for the sake of staying alive, he eventually faced the fear that he would probably die. yes he's a scared chicken, and when his spark did awake he could have just said "screw you guys i'm out" he did not. why? he actually dropped some balls and got the courage to stick through.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH decks: BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB GThrun, the Last TrollG RGWRith, the AwakenerWGR UMemnarchU GBGlissa, the TraitorBG
Standard Decks: RKuldotha RebirthR WUControlUW BMidrangeB
Extended: WUBEsper GlazeBUW
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No way at all. I was adding it to the list of contributions that he had made beyond giving Jhoria a handy teleportation device.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Actually they baton passed the role of "Magic Rock" to this guy
Planeswalker - Stone
Hes a magical stone.
Besides, why not give Venser one last chance? Sure Time Spiral cycle was a damn blunder but Venser was practically new to the job of being a Planeswalker.
Though I suppose that is to much to ask. After all nobody apparently wants to clean up after themselves and fix the mess of a walker we know as Venser. Lets say hes a 200 Years old and found some way to temporarily extend his life. In that time period that is enough time for someone to change their personality but not make their old personality entirely obsolete.
Get where I am poking at? It's fine and dandy to complain about the problem in the past, but it doesn't help fix the present for the future. If yesterday's problem isn't fixed today, that day just stacks another day as a reminder of the problem instead of solving it as would no longer be a reminder.
To Summarize: Venser needs to be adjusted to be more interesting to the readers, otherwise no one will like him and those three books during Time Spiral block are just going to serve as a heavier reminder when the time comes for thinking of what old characters could still be used in the story.
Yeah, ☺☺☺☺ is a pretty apt reaction from me as well. Maybe he suddenly improved his writing skills since then, though? Uh, and the muses and the leanansidhe and whoever else is responsible for inspired writing went and paid him a visit?
On the note of Venser- he wasn't well developed as a character. He was a bit...like a rock. Literally, just there and there. Sitting. Maybe contributing a little here and there, but my mental image of him was a balding, short, potbellied man screaming whenever danger game. So yeah, maybe he could've shaped up since then. But that first impression of the short fat screaming man is still there.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Which should sound like Teferi was referring to the 5 walkers we get in Lorwyn who are indeed "Diverse and Different" from one another. That Venser was supposed to teach these five what he was taught and help them grow.
I get the feeling that Venser was meant to have a Planeswalker card, not a Legend card. With the name for that card being:
Yet because the designers were apparently unable to finish all the tinkering in making the Planeswalker permanent we all know and Love/Hate, they bumped Venser down to a Legend card instead.
I also get the feeling that Venser, Shaper Savant's "Bounce/Remand" ability was just one of his plus or minus abilities.
IE: [-4] Return target spell or permanent to it's owner's hand. You may activate this ability during an opponent's turn.
I feel our character Venser, was in a way, robbed. He was set on basically a mission by Teferi who also gave him true and honest wisdom and advice to those he meet who are the Braidywalkers who are mere mortals with powerful magic. (Not on a world destroying scale of magic though.)
Yet we have these stories instead because it's almost like starting from Square 1 all over again. A fresh slate if you will to cover tracks.
Jhoira has no means of "Plane Hopping" and is currently in a romance for all we know but is most likely still alive. Venser MUST have died if it's 150 years into the future. Teferi most likely aged and died as well if we are flung that far into the future. Karn's whereabouts are unknown to us. Jeska died when sealing the last rift so she may finally rest in peace with her sibling Kamahl in the afterlife.
Venser, Artificer of Urborg 2UU
Planeswalker - Venser (R)
[+?]: Insert Here Ability Fitting For Venser.
[-4]: Return target spell or permanent to it's owner's hand. You may activate this ability during an opponent's turn.
[-?]: Insert Ultimatum Ability For Venser Here.
{2}
I honestly believe there was meant to be more story to Venser but it was scrapped and we get the "Clean Slate" effect that new books present us with.
Anyway lets hope Karn doesn't suck in this new novel he is in. After all, Karn does reek of Nostalgia to us old players. If he does get butchered, Urza help us all.
Anyway I have question: Wasn't Memnarch MELTED back down into the Mirari? How would the oil still be there? Is the oil self replicating in that a small portion of it hid in the smallest part of Memnarch/Mirari and just happened to make more of itself and start seeping into Karn and try to Mind Control Karn?
IMHO, the Mending was very last minute and Creative trying to figure a way out without killing all the oldwalkers. So yeah, rushed and contrived are good words.
I mean, it is fully possible that Venser was slated to actually be more, and that he did go on and become a great teacher. Maybe he taught Jace's mentor, or something. It's just that in the presentation in the book, he wasn't exactly given a savory spotlight, but the card design he had differed a bit from the character in the book, so I get what you mean. They just don't mesh- I mean, the flavor text on his card does not at all fit the Venser from the books.
I feel like the idea of having a walker with instant speed abilities would give me a headache trying to comprehend the rules for it. I mean, would it get priority on certain phases, etc?
So yes, Venser probably had begun life as a much more awe inspiring and worthy card. Except...Yeah.
You know, I really would've liked to have a short story collection of various one shots from Time Spiral. Just like, snapshots of where people ended up- Teferi, for instance, after basically dooming his homeland, and Jhoria and Jodah and just the general impact and recovery from the time rifts.
I don't know. I'm personally kind of afraid of how it'll turn out with Wintermute writing it- I mean, Teeth just. It just wasn't there for me; maybe I'm being a little too critical of it, but his characters were very static and stiff and the writing itself, yeah. That said, I never finished it so it might've gotten better.
Yes, Memnarch is now the Mirari. Which is where we now stand divided on what this actually means. I mean, don't think of the oil as oil, and more of a contagion or virus. A computer virus that has a liquid oily form. It's possible that Karn burned away the corruption when he melted him down, which is what I feel happened, but we don't actually know why Karn was running. Except, you know, the corruption which does have some implications.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Honestly that would just be one of those "What... The... Fu-" *Brain shuts down* moments. I really want to believe that Mirari still has some mind of it's unmelted self left as it tries to take over Karn's body with the assistance of the "Oil", but that is pulling at straws.
EDIT: Glad to hear your thoughts on my venser thinking. I really hope I am not thinking to hard on it, but yes it does feel very rushed and does not mesh well with how they continued the story and created the Venser mechanically from the story.
I'm in the camp that the Mirari as it was before, already had some level of sentience- after all, what good is a probe if it can't observe anything? It did show some level of...something when it called to Chainer, so I feel like that Karn probably just wiped the hardware and reinstalled the base operating system. Like what you do when your computer gets a really, really bad virus.
I personally believe that they made the card first, then the story came and they were like 'Wait! We need a spotlight on this new walker!' or vice versa. Or they were like 'Wait! The Mending! Ach- oh, Venser! Here, write him a story! Go!'. There's usually some level of parallels between the card and flavor- see Teferi. He fit pretty well. Venser...Not? I don't know- to me, it's one of those wasted opportunities that they never explored.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Maybe Karn just closed and deleted the "Golem" File yet the virus is still there. If it is, then he really didn't "Reformat the Computer."
Yeah Teferi fits like a glove. Venser is very out of place for his card.
great art I would have actually liked to see be on a card for Venser.
Well, he WAS an artificer, so he could have created a construct where he transfered his mind into. Think of the brain in a jar trope. So he could very well be still alive, if creative wants to.
Well lets see list of possibilities for those searching for Karn that are not Tezzeret:
- Jace (Because he can be stuffed into any story if WotC wills it)
- Elspeth (Really, Really, Why Would She?)
- Venser (Old geezer if he were to show up unless he is somehow still young looking)
- Chandra (Does she even know about Karn?)
- Liliana Vess (Advice on the chain veil and how to beat her demons quicker? Seems the most plausible)
- Sarkhan (I doubt)
- Ajani (Wouldn't he be better off tending to his village and other places like Bant?)
- Nicol Bolas (Because he just knows?)
- Garruk (Yeah, no. I doubt nature boy wants to do with anything artificial or represents civilization)
- Sorin (Well the man does have a To-Do list and the Eldrazi was just one out of however many)
- Nissa (Ha! ha! No. Look at Garruk's)
Ajani left Bant, however, the old Mirrodin was home to a lot of leonin, which look strikingly similar to Ajani and were white-aligned. I wouldn't be surprised to see him plane-hop and find them and go "ZOMG cat people just like me!"
Elspeth is still plane-hopping in search for a home. She also hates seeing good things corrupted. Perhaps she will finally make a stand, she and Karn seem to have a lot in common, maybe Karn will apprenticize her.
it wouldn't surprise me if one or more of Liliana's demon-pact buddies was on Mirrodin, what with it getting corrupted and all.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
All the souls on Mirrodin were stolen by Memnarch to populate his new world. The Leonin weren't actually from Mirrodin (and potentially were even originally from Alara) so I doubt Ajani would go there to visit them. I also thought that all the souls except Glissa, Slobad, and Geths head were released from Mirrodin at the end of the novels? The same goes for Lillianas demons, based on the ending of the Mirrodin novels, there weren't any demons left at the end.
Reread the ending of Mirrodin; so Glissa flared at the end and she restored Slobad, right? That means that she's still a walker, depending on when the Mirrodin timeline synchs up of course. She and/or Slobad (or even Geth) could be the one(s) looking for Karn. Something may be happening on Mirrodin and they're trying to find Karn to stop it. Phyrexia is still around as well, Yawgmoth dying didn't do anything to Phyrexia itself (it survived it's previous ruler/founder/etc dying in the core). The Phyrexians could have found a way to Mirrodin and are trying to corrupt it to make a new Phyrexia, or to use it's secrets to do the typical bad stuff that fiendish things do.
I don't know, some us actually like characters with faults. It opens up possibilities of future characterization. Making Venser be a cowardly everyman actually made Time Spiral better than people give it credit for. He filled a niche for the reader - we were dragged into that journey with him, we observed all the craziness that he observed, etc. It's a pretty common storytelling device.
I would rather take Venser over the other new walkers any day of the week. Better a cowardly protagonist than another one that we watch from a distance as they emotionlessly complete a task that we have no reason to believe they actually care about.
That said, remember that a lot of time has passed and Venser is likely old and past the humanly faults that made him a good character. I'm sure if he returns he will be as stoic as the rest of them, and mindlessly achieve a goal simply because the author tells him to.
People want to read about mighty heroes battling impossible odds, and winning. Nobody wants to read about someone who is as human as they are because that would be seen as "Dull" and "Boring". Kind of like why I know people who would rather play an Orc than a Human in a D&D Campaign because playing what you already are sounds so...ridiculous. As it is all a painful reminder of your life as an Run of the Mill, human if something is just like you. Which is also known as Escapism.
I personally prefer Venser for those traits of showing human qualities. I've written characters who show those human traits, I've written characters that do the "Mindlessly Carry Out Missions Because Author Said So!".
In D&D that is really the formula when your a low level 1 newbie of "Go Mindlessly Do Your Task Because The Storyteller Said So!". Your at Point A, go to Point B and Retrieve C and come back to A but C goes horribly wrong because of D and now you must E to save the day. If the story does well go and make the sequel F.
I bring up D&D because it's also an Escapism that does something similar.
Also Venser is a very Antihero-ish character. He doesn't follow the standard Heroic Planeswalker walk of life like many do yet he is a protagonist.
The traditional hero type is classically depicted to possess an image that is larger than life. They are generally expected to be more physically attractive, stronger, braver, more clever or charismatic than the average everyman. Unlikely heroes are simply characters who may not be conspicuously flawed, but simply ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstances.
We live in a time of apparently the recession still going on and people seek escapes out of reality. A human thing to do.
Tezzeret and Barinellos dislike Venser because he is in reality about as human as they are.
Reality really loves to bite you in the rear to remind you that it's there.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Actually you are describing exactly why I LIKE Jace. He's clever, but not more so than everyone around him. He's got very human drives to seek comfort and companionship and NOT act like a hero (Zendikar withstanding) seeking only what is best for himself at any given moment. The problem is that Venser shares none of these traits. He's human, but he's a coward that just got dragged along with beings immensely more powerful than himself and he didn't have enough spine to say "No more". Most of his "help" came because he thought Jhoira was cute and he was trying to impress the millenia old girl. (and I love that he got friend-zoned. HARD.)
He didn't mature over the course of three books as Giallarhorn said. He had no traits I wanted to read about, nor any traits to make me sympathetic to him..
He was, as I claimed, a magic rock for Teferi, Bolas, and everyone else to look at and comment how unusual he was. That was the span of what purpose he had in the book. The other magic rock in the book, on the other hand, didn't ACT like the damn thing they were. Radha had a personality outside being attached to the beings she was drug along with. She had her own goals and motivations. Venser's goals were stupid. "Leave Urborg; I left Urborg; I want to go back home; I wonder if Jhoira likes me."
He was the goofy loser teenager. He didn't fit and it's astounding Windgrace was so incompetent that he didn't snuff Venser out years ago.
The Leonin couldn't have been from Alara, simply because they were returned to their home along with the goblins, elves, and Nuerok humans. The timeline doesn't match up for that, since Mirrodin only happened about 200-250 years ago.
As for Glissa, her spark didn't ignite. What happened is that Memnarch and Glissa fell into the Ascension web and Slobad received her spark. He used it to restore Glissa and the rest of the life on Mirrodin, but since the soul traps were by and large broken, the life just returned to where it came from and the spark went bye-bye.
Next up, to Phyrexia. Yawgmoth dying actually DOES have an effect on Phyrexia, as an artificial plane, was DYING without its creator there to maintain its balance. This is mentioned in the Thran when Dyfed was escorting Yawgmoth around. Then there is the fact that Urza and his titans set off Soul Bombs that blew up about 9/10's of the plane as well.
I choked and spilled coffee all over myself laughing when I read that. Thankfully, it was lukewarm.
I do wish they explained the whole Ascension web a bit more- the transference of a spark would delve into a lot of the nature of the spark, and answer some very old questions about it. And mostly, the comment Karn gave about all the souls that were swirling around the goblin's head.
Also on the note of Phyrexia, as mentioned in the Thran, Yawgmoth had literally become the plane towards the end. The plane itself had gained some level of sentience, or what seemed like it from what Rebbec experienced while she was there. So over time, it'd make sense that being holed up in the ninth sphere would only deepen the connection, so Phyrexia literally has lost its 'brain'. Further this also by the fact that most Phyrexians were only mindless, and thus, without a guiding mind, were very useless.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Yes, they WERE, but clearly, some kind of life has returned to Mirrodin, might be some of the same.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
...wow. Now there's a wallbanger for you.
Let's see, where to begin...okay here we go:
1.) Leonin, goblins, elves, and Neurok? Are you kidding?? There were dozens of other known species and cultures that were seen in the books and the cards! Even if you're going with the outdated argument that only humanoid creatures have souls, which I highly doubt is the case in Dominia, there's Auriok, Moriok, Vulshok, Sylvok, nim, vampires, vedalken, sliths, trolls, loxodon...you get my point.
2.) 200-250 years ago? I'm sorry, we can't say that with any certainty just yet; the time scale within Mirrodin and in relation to other planes is still up in the air. Given the massive amount of time that transpired within Mirrodin from when it was Argentum to when Karn returned, the fact that only 300 years transpired in other planes between those events, and the ambiguity of which happened first, Karn disappearing or returning to Mirrodin, it isn't clear at all. Even barring that, we have little idea how much time has passed since the Mending and recent storylines.
3.) And now, the least sensical part of the argument: the leonin couldn't have been from Alara, because they were returned to their home...wait, what? How does that make any sense?! You think that for the leonin of Mirrodin to have come from Alara, they all had to be abducted by soul traps?! What...what?! No no no, powerful though the soul traps may have been, they were not powerful enough to abduct an ENTIRE SPECIES from a plane without a trace! It's still perfectly possible for leonin to have come from Alara initially, Mirrodin in no way muddles that up.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
? Mirrodin happened between between the end of scourge and the mending. Slobad ascended as an oldwalker... he couldn't have done that post-mending.
Alara was broken up by then. Unless we are using the "Time works differently on different planes" reasoning, at which point there's no real reason to even dicsuss dates or events in releation to each other.
* Though if Alara does have accelerated time, then Bolas would have surely died waiting for the conflux.
The Mirrodin Leonin are based on Lions, the Alara ones are Jaguars. They aren't related to each other.
* Also Naya doesn't have blue mana or wide open spaces.
I wasn't making an argument about souls here. We had clear evidence that the Leonin, Nuerok, Elves, and Goblins formed an alliance once they were returned to their home plane. And they met by the SEA.
Scourge happened 100 years after the Invasion, and THAT is when Karn left Argentum. Time flowed normally at that point, we KNOW this to be true.
Now, suddenly the timeline escalates when Karn leaves and Memnarch takes over... gee, it isn't like Memnarch had powerful delusions that warped the fabric of space and kept Karn out of his own plane... wait, yes he did.
As Skibo pointed out, Slobad ascended to oldwalker status. What's more, during Planar Chaos, Karn was standing outside an EMPTY MIRRODIN with Jeska 300 years after the Invasion.
Next, we DO have a good idea of how long has passed, even if it is slightly vague. Approximately a century has passed since the mending, citing Liliana Vess. Oh, but wait, she could be lying. Sure, but then again, if we take everything every character says as a possibly lie, then we have no reason to believe anything anybody says ever.
And for the record, I was stating that when Memnarch changed the name of Argentum to Mirrodin and began abducting life is the start of the 200-250 years ago. It still ended before the mending, regardless of everything else. Mirrodin's storyline might have only lasted 100 years on the outside world.
No, it's not a matter of the soul traps having taken everybody, it's a matter of location and species they interacted with not being found upon Naya. Skibo already pointed that out.
If you haven't read Fifth Dawn, then you shouldn't criticize those of us who have that correct you.
karn is (for the the most part) still everyone's favorite artificial planeswalker.
and as i've stated about venser, fear and cowardice are seperate, though on a thin line.
venser USED to be a coward, but for the sake of staying alive, he eventually faced the fear that he would probably die. yes he's a scared chicken, and when his spark did awake he could have just said "screw you guys i'm out" he did not. why? he actually dropped some balls and got the courage to stick through.
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB
GThrun, the Last TrollG
RGWRith, the AwakenerWGR
UMemnarchU
GBGlissa, the TraitorBG
Standard Decks:
RKuldotha RebirthR
WUControlUW
BMidrangeB
Extended:
WUBEsper GlazeBUW