Since Karn was back in time and met up with an enemy of his, he would have then interacted with the past, thus changing it. What happened on Mirroden before isn't necessarily what has happened now. The simplest answer would seem to be that time has been changed.
Karn didn't actually interact with anything in the past beyond the rift, which he closed via Urza's spark. It was on the way of traveling back or upon reaching the present or somewhere in that period that he felt a corruption take over him, and he fled.
So time hasn't been rewritten- the only change would be the rift over Tolaria closed.
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Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Just read an interview with wotc brand managers over at mananation.com. I'd link it but I'm on mu iPhone. Anyhow in the interview they say only the souls that were brought to mirrodin were returned. All the offspring or some of them remained with no leadership or something to that effect.
I didn't see this posted so sorry if it already has.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Just read an interview with wotc brand managers over at mananation.com. I'd link it but I'm on mu iPhone. Anyhow in the interview they say only the souls that were brought to mirrodin were returned. All the offspring or some of them remained with no leadership or something to that effect.
I didn't see this posted so sorry if it already has.
So... This means that Mirrodin began to spawn souls of its own, retconning not the return, but the closed system of constant reincarnation of every soul.
Well, this pretty well confirms that Raksha really WAS the reincarnation of Dakan, the first Kha.
I think I could live with new souls having been generated on Mirrodin. It doesn't DIRECTLY contradict anything we know of, right? Did Memnarch ever explicitly state that EVERY person on Mirrodin was a reincarnation?
Interesting idea i guess... kind of raises all sorts of questions on the nature of souls and beings. (How can a plane have natural births and reincarnations)? I'm not going to even hazard a guess as to how that works.
If that's the loophole they want to use, all the more power to them. I'm just wondering if we'll see the reincarnation of Slobad and Glissa since thier traps are still around.
* It does make you wonder about Koth though. Last time i checked artifical planes can't produce sparks... so how is he a planeswalker?
* It does make you wonder about Koth though. Last time i checked artifical planes can't produce sparks... so how is he a planeswalker?
Or Glissa, for that fact. It could be that there was a spark floating around one of the souls, and it somehow escaped notice? Highly unlikely, though, and dealing with the really shady nature of sparks and souls.
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Or Glissa, for that fact. It could be that there was a spark floating around one of the souls, and it somehow escaped notice? Highly unlikely, though, and dealing with the really shady nature of sparks and souls.
Glissa was taken from another plane, that's why she was capable of a spark.
As for Koth...
No freaking clue. Maybe Mirrodin has intergrated with the Blind Eternities in ways none of the other artificial planes did. After all, Mirrodin IS balanced as far as mana goes. Then again, if it's capable of producing its own souls, then it calls into question how artificial it is anymore.
Mycosynth was turning flesh into metal and metal into flesh. What if it had some more subtle effect on the plane itself? Like turning an artifical plane("metal") into natural plane("flesh").
Just for anyone who is interested, here is the quote from the interview:
The explanation is about why there is life on Mirrodin. It was believed that, at the end of the Mirrodin stories, Memnarch’s Soul Traps sucked all the life forms off of Mirrodin leaving the plane desolate and devoid of life. What wasn’t made clear in the novels was that the vortexes actually only pulled the original life forms that had been brought to Mirrodin, but they leave their progeny untouched.
What does this mean? It means that Mirrodin is still inhabited and that it is a world in chaos as it just lost every elder from every race across the plane.
So, I guess...That means that somehow Mirrodin managed to incorporate new souls via their progeny, somehow? And that apparently, what should be a fairly substantial amount of inhabitants were left alive without Memnarch noticing/accounting for them?
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I'm pretty down with it. I wasn't around for Mirrodin, but reading from reading just these posts, it makes sense that a "soul trap" would only take the original souls. Random thought: What if the balancing of mana is what produces souls? 0.o So Mirrodin would have died if without all of the suns, and that's why the soul traps were made?
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The explanation is about why there is life on Mirrodin. It was believed that, at the end of the Mirrodin stories, Memnarch’s Soul Traps sucked all the life forms off of Mirrodin leaving the plane desolate and devoid of life. What wasn’t made clear in the novels was that the vortexes actually only pulled the original life forms that had been brought to Mirrodin, but they leave their progeny untouched.
What does this mean? It means that Mirrodin is still inhabited and that it is a world in chaos as it just lost every elder from every race across the plane.
Wait... how does this make sense? Glissa and her sister were second generation at least. They weren't the elder of the Elves... they were pretty young. Likewise Slobad was kicked out of his tribe because he was born under the blue son. Raksha was thought to be the reincarnations of the first Kha.
Unless elder means a person who happens to be reincarnated... but that doesn't make sense either because none of the characters showed any ability to recollect thier past lives (Glissa's flares were visons sent to her by Karn). So losing those people wouldn't cause chaos.
And futhermore it's been 100+ years... how would Mirrodin still be in chaos? I could understand chaos after Fifth dawn, having a large portion of your population vanish would be cause of great concern. But after 100 years?
Random thought: What if the balancing of mana is what produces souls? 0.o So Mirrodin would have died if without all of the suns, and that's why the soul traps were made?
Souls can be produced anywhere... Phyrexians had souls, people of Rath had souls, people of Mirrodin had souls. The spark is another matter.
The soul traps were just that, traps for souls. Mirrodin is one gaint machine, and the souls would constantly recycle. They'd never more on to the afterlife. It had nothing to do with souls being unproducable, and everything to do with Memnarch needing to be in complete control of everything.
As far as 100 years and there still being chaos, well, having a large(ish?) portion of the population vanish after the plane has gone to hell up to and including the would-be-god of the plane die, still being in chaos after 100 years seems pretty likely. Especially since Mirroden wasn't especially peaceful in the first place.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
Wait... how does this make sense? Glissa and her sister were second generation at least. They weren't the elder of the Elves... they were pretty young. Likewise Slobad was kicked out of his tribe because he was born under the blue son. Raksha was thought to be the reincarnations of the first Kha.
It is kinda wierd, but I suppose as the population increases there are more births than recycled souls.
but that doesn't make sense either because none of the characters showed any ability to recollect thier past lives (Glissa's flares were visons sent to her by Karn). So losing those people wouldn't cause chaos.
Yeah the "elder" thing is strange. But exactly how many times would they have been reincarnated? How long were the elders/captured souls on Mirrodin? Was there any creature that would have been around to be taken and returned?
And futhermore it's been 100+ years... how would Mirrodin still be in chaos? I could understand chaos after Fifth dawn, having a large portion of your population vanish would be cause of great concern. But after 100 years?
Well this is the easiest part of the retcon to swallow. They can pretty much make up anything that happened after Fifth Dawn.
I've been looking and looking and I can't find anyone having referenced a few points yet. In fact, in glance over Karn's page in the wiki, I could find no mention of this at all... what do I speak of?
Well technically, there is no evidence life completely left Mirrodin. Glissa, Slobad and Geth were left with the Mirari at the end of Fifth Dawn. The soul trap's release means that the souls that had been on Mirrodin were released... but were others brought to the plane? We have some evidence that indeed, Karn himself brought new life.
Specifically, Karn's next appearance in Planar Chaos.
Page 50.
"Karn floated in the Blind Eternities, barely touching the outer edges of Mirrodin. The all-metal plane was a place of his own devising, a test of his abilities and intentions that had not ended well. Now it was a peaceful place, and Karn always returned to it regularly to make sure that the seeds he planted did not bring forth poison fruit."
Page 51.
"Karn's prenaturally clear mind reached out to the world he had created, suffusing Mirrodin with his consciousness and taking its measure. There had not been a major conflict or crisis in Mirrodin for over one hundred years, but something about the place troubled Karn. He felt as a man would upon returning home from a short vacation to find his house and everything in it moved slightly to the left.
Jeska approached him. She was keen-eyed and wore her bushy red hair pinned behind her neck in a heavy iron clip, "What do you see?" she said.
"The same," Karn replied. "Things grow and evolve and change as I anticipated. But there is more at work here.""
Page 226. - Jhoria is telling Venser about Karn's history.
"The world went mad just as Jhoria reached the point in Karn's story where the planeswalking golem regained control over his all-metal plane."
The points of interest;
-Karn was keeping a watchful eye on his plane by the point of Planar Chaos, to ensure another Memnarch was not created by a long absence on his part.
-The events of Mirrodin block took place at least 100 years prior to Time Spiral block. Jhoria has knowledge of those events.
-Something is not quite right with Mirrodin at this point. Karn however cannot detect what it is, as it is very subtle.
-The plane was most likely repopulated by Karn. He references planting seeds (seeds liking being living beings) as well as things "...grow and evolve and change..." which would most likely not be the case if the plane was lifeless.
-Finally, in case there is any lingering doubt as to whether or not the events of Mirrodin block have occurred by this point... Karn refers to the plane as Mirrodin. Prior to Memnarch, it was Argentum.
Karn may have managed to even discover what was going on in Mirrodin during Planar Chaos, had the ambulator (Venser's Teleport Machine) not called out to him. That distraction along with the presence of Jeska kept Karn from investigating. Later in the book, Karn becomes corrupted by something and flees, after he is extremely weakened. Specifically an enemy of his own invention has destroyed him. If we, as the audience are to assume this is not the reveal of a new enemy, there is only one possible choice. Memnarch, or some other form of the Mirari. It is entirely possible that Memnarch forsaw his doom and in his madness created some kind of failsafe trap to attack Karn should he manage to regain access to Mirrodin. However, I digress...
Mirrodin does not appear to have ever been lifeless since the events of Fifth Dawn. I think it is fairly safe to assume that Karn left Slobad, Glissa and Geth alone for a short period of time before repopulating his plane and starting again.
My insane speculation: Karn is the leader of Phyrexia, and Karn is the leader of Mirrodin's factions.
Karn accidentally went back in time too far, got fully corrupted by the Mirari, and then took the Phyrexian wannabe path by making Mirrodin.
Karn also accidentally made a space-time paradox where he didn't go far enough back in time and ended up re-creating an Argentum that would be assaulted by the new Mirrodin/Phyrexia, forcing him to populate his plane with defenses from the multiverse using some kind of tech we don't know about.
In all seriousness, it could be anything as simple as soul traps to as complex as the space-time continuum. The ability to both planeswalk and time travel makes too many possibilities for my mind to fathom.
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They are TSP/PC/FS it. TSP had many old cards in it that were reprinted.
If you think about it, Memnarch was one of the biggest scars on Mirrodin.
So time hasn't been rewritten- the only change would be the rift over Tolaria closed.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I didn't see this posted so sorry if it already has.
So... This means that Mirrodin began to spawn souls of its own, retconning not the return, but the closed system of constant reincarnation of every soul.
Well, this pretty well confirms that Raksha really WAS the reincarnation of Dakan, the first Kha.
I think I could live with new souls having been generated on Mirrodin. It doesn't DIRECTLY contradict anything we know of, right? Did Memnarch ever explicitly state that EVERY person on Mirrodin was a reincarnation?
If that's the loophole they want to use, all the more power to them. I'm just wondering if we'll see the reincarnation of Slobad and Glissa since thier traps are still around.
* It does make you wonder about Koth though. Last time i checked artifical planes can't produce sparks... so how is he a planeswalker?
Or Glissa, for that fact. It could be that there was a spark floating around one of the souls, and it somehow escaped notice? Highly unlikely, though, and dealing with the really shady nature of sparks and souls.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Glissa was taken from another plane, that's why she was capable of a spark.
As for Koth...
No freaking clue. Maybe Mirrodin has intergrated with the Blind Eternities in ways none of the other artificial planes did. After all, Mirrodin IS balanced as far as mana goes. Then again, if it's capable of producing its own souls, then it calls into question how artificial it is anymore.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Wait... how does this make sense? Glissa and her sister were second generation at least. They weren't the elder of the Elves... they were pretty young. Likewise Slobad was kicked out of his tribe because he was born under the blue son. Raksha was thought to be the reincarnations of the first Kha.
Unless elder means a person who happens to be reincarnated... but that doesn't make sense either because none of the characters showed any ability to recollect thier past lives (Glissa's flares were visons sent to her by Karn). So losing those people wouldn't cause chaos.
And futhermore it's been 100+ years... how would Mirrodin still be in chaos? I could understand chaos after Fifth dawn, having a large portion of your population vanish would be cause of great concern. But after 100 years?
This one just doesn't make any sense.
Souls can be produced anywhere... Phyrexians had souls, people of Rath had souls, people of Mirrodin had souls. The spark is another matter.
The soul traps were just that, traps for souls. Mirrodin is one gaint machine, and the souls would constantly recycle. They'd never more on to the afterlife. It had nothing to do with souls being unproducable, and everything to do with Memnarch needing to be in complete control of everything.
As far as 100 years and there still being chaos, well, having a large(ish?) portion of the population vanish after the plane has gone to hell up to and including the would-be-god of the plane die, still being in chaos after 100 years seems pretty likely. Especially since Mirroden wasn't especially peaceful in the first place.
It is kinda wierd, but I suppose as the population increases there are more births than recycled souls.
Yeah the "elder" thing is strange. But exactly how many times would they have been reincarnated? How long were the elders/captured souls on Mirrodin? Was there any creature that would have been around to be taken and returned?
Well this is the easiest part of the retcon to swallow. They can pretty much make up anything that happened after Fifth Dawn.
Well technically, there is no evidence life completely left Mirrodin. Glissa, Slobad and Geth were left with the Mirari at the end of Fifth Dawn. The soul trap's release means that the souls that had been on Mirrodin were released... but were others brought to the plane? We have some evidence that indeed, Karn himself brought new life.
Specifically, Karn's next appearance in Planar Chaos.
Page 50.
"Karn floated in the Blind Eternities, barely touching the outer edges of Mirrodin. The all-metal plane was a place of his own devising, a test of his abilities and intentions that had not ended well. Now it was a peaceful place, and Karn always returned to it regularly to make sure that the seeds he planted did not bring forth poison fruit."
Page 51.
"Karn's prenaturally clear mind reached out to the world he had created, suffusing Mirrodin with his consciousness and taking its measure. There had not been a major conflict or crisis in Mirrodin for over one hundred years, but something about the place troubled Karn. He felt as a man would upon returning home from a short vacation to find his house and everything in it moved slightly to the left.
Jeska approached him. She was keen-eyed and wore her bushy red hair pinned behind her neck in a heavy iron clip, "What do you see?" she said.
"The same," Karn replied. "Things grow and evolve and change as I anticipated. But there is more at work here.""
Page 226. - Jhoria is telling Venser about Karn's history.
"The world went mad just as Jhoria reached the point in Karn's story where the planeswalking golem regained control over his all-metal plane."
The points of interest;
-Karn was keeping a watchful eye on his plane by the point of Planar Chaos, to ensure another Memnarch was not created by a long absence on his part.
-The events of Mirrodin block took place at least 100 years prior to Time Spiral block. Jhoria has knowledge of those events.
-Something is not quite right with Mirrodin at this point. Karn however cannot detect what it is, as it is very subtle.
-The plane was most likely repopulated by Karn. He references planting seeds (seeds liking being living beings) as well as things "...grow and evolve and change..." which would most likely not be the case if the plane was lifeless.
-Finally, in case there is any lingering doubt as to whether or not the events of Mirrodin block have occurred by this point... Karn refers to the plane as Mirrodin. Prior to Memnarch, it was Argentum.
Karn may have managed to even discover what was going on in Mirrodin during Planar Chaos, had the ambulator (Venser's Teleport Machine) not called out to him. That distraction along with the presence of Jeska kept Karn from investigating. Later in the book, Karn becomes corrupted by something and flees, after he is extremely weakened. Specifically an enemy of his own invention has destroyed him. If we, as the audience are to assume this is not the reveal of a new enemy, there is only one possible choice. Memnarch, or some other form of the Mirari. It is entirely possible that Memnarch forsaw his doom and in his madness created some kind of failsafe trap to attack Karn should he manage to regain access to Mirrodin. However, I digress...
Mirrodin does not appear to have ever been lifeless since the events of Fifth Dawn. I think it is fairly safe to assume that Karn left Slobad, Glissa and Geth alone for a short period of time before repopulating his plane and starting again.
Karn accidentally went back in time too far, got fully corrupted by the Mirari, and then took the Phyrexian wannabe path by making Mirrodin.
Karn also accidentally made a space-time paradox where he didn't go far enough back in time and ended up re-creating an Argentum that would be assaulted by the new Mirrodin/Phyrexia, forcing him to populate his plane with defenses from the multiverse using some kind of tech we don't know about.
In all seriousness, it could be anything as simple as soul traps to as complex as the space-time continuum. The ability to both planeswalk and time travel makes too many possibilities for my mind to fathom.