So who else do you think survived the Mending? I know the first person that I can think of off the top of my head is of course going to be the Mightiest of all the Planeswalkers that currently exists.... NICOL BOLAS!!!
So who do you think other than those people survived... Oh and one other stipulation, they must still have Planeswalker powers in some capacity... so no listing people who are known to have lost their spark during the Mending (i.e. Teferi).
Edited to give the thread a reasonable topic title.
Next time, please do not call a thread "I want a list".
-Car.
How many times will I have to repeat this: Bolas is NOT the most powerful planeswalker, Urza Planeswalker is. There are several sources to claim so.
Your planeswalker list is almost complete imo. The only person you might have forgotten about is Karn, who's now "lost in time and space", which probably means he 'walked to the future, thus avoiding being affected by the Mending. But it's unsure if he's still a planeswalker because before his disappearance he used his power to close a rift, which mostly costs a 'walker his Spark. I personally think he was (how could he 'walk out of there without having one), but it hasn't been confirmed.
Well honestly in your thread it was acknowledged that at least two other known Walkers do exist who were not involved in the Mending Directly. Nailah, and Fatima... then someone else also mentioned a planeswalker by the name of Parcher.
So yeah, there are allegedly others out there, the question is how many are there, also the question is, like I just mentioned in your thread, how many planeswalkers have been in existence without us the players actually knowing about them. Cause I doubt all the planeswalkers that exist in the Magic the Gathering Multiverse (at least in WotC's mindscapes) happen to be 100% fleshed out or documented canonically speaking.
EDIT: and on a side note, I would agree that Urza was the most powerful. However he is dead, Nicol Bolas however is fully alive, and well, making him officially THE most powerful Planeswalker in existence TODAY! Please note I have changed the Original post.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Was his spark ignited at the end of the Time Spiral Novels? Or was he simply using his contraption to planeswalk by that point? If it is the former, then I will add him to the list of planeswalkers, but if it is the latter then I don't think he quite qualifies.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
You wanted all the 'walkers who could be technically still alive after the Mending? I'm sorry, I thought you were asking just about the neowalkers.
The neowalker list really includes Venser (but some people say that he's Jace who just changed the name), then possibly Radha (though she's said to have lost her potential to ascend) and Masrath and Tessebik, the two guys from this article: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mc98
(I'm not sure it's canon, though)
The original walkers also include Fiers, Meshuvel and some prerevisionist ones, who are probably no longer considered canon.
Thank you, that is all I was looking for
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I just wanted to say that I'm pretty sure Venser's spark was ignited. Supposedly, he planeswalked off at the end of Future Sight, but left the Ambulator with Jhoira.
I also doubt Venser == Jace. Jace's magic focuses on telepathy and the mind. Venser was an artificer; more like Tezzeret.
Mightstone and Weakstone possibly contained two Sparks (that's why Urza was much more powerful than any other planeswalker), so technically it's possible Karn sacrificed only one of them and still holds the other one. That would be cool, wouldn't it?
Minor correction. The Mightstone and Weakstone contained ONE spark together - the spark of Glacian of Halcyon.
There's a thread buried in this forum, where issue of Urza, Glacian and Karn, as well as the nature of the planeswalker spark (the pre-Mending one) was discussed very thoroughly...the main discussers being MORT and Sleeping Villian, if I recall correctly.
When Karn ascended, two sparks were "in play" - Urza's own and Glacian's (finally released with the reunion of Might&Weakstone). It is possible that they united in one in Karn. But, and that was emphasized in Planar Chaos, if even Karn lost his spark (which, moreover, he did not lose when closing Tolarian rift (the book states that "the rift gave up before his power did"), he would retain his planeswalking abilities thanks to the Legacy inside him (that included Weatherlight's planeswalking engine).
And yes, Radha's dormant spark was rendered "unflareable" when Jeska used her to close Zhalfirin rift, therefore she is not a neowalker.
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There's another thread that discusses wether Bolas is indeed still a planeswalker or not. It's unlikely that Parcher and the other "unused" old-style 'walkers are still 'walkers.
Why? Is there any evidence to support that old 'walkers just died, or disappeared, or lost their sparks or whatever? We know Karn survived survived and we know that Bolas survived and had his spark altered instead of destroyed. Why would the other 'walkers not have the same experience?
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So Karn is confirmed to still have a Spark, right? That's good news for me.
And are you sure there was only one Spark in those powerstones? I'm almost sure Urza had two of them (Glacian's Spark was contained in those powerstones, which then absorbed Urza's soul together with his own Spark in the Sylex blast), and there was no way to lose a Spark until the events of Time Spiral (well, you could sacrifice it like Slobad did, but I doubt either Urza or Karn did it), which leads to the fact that Karn also had two Sparks until the events of Planar Chaos and kept at least one of them after it...
Exactly this thing was discussed in the thread I mentioned.
I think that we concluded that one of the sparks (probably Urza's) was possibly consumed in Legacy blast, but by doing this, it enabled the so-far dormant spark of Glacian to flare and give "life" to Karn Planeswalker.
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Why? Is there any evidence to support that old 'walkers just died, or disappeared, or lost their sparks or whatever? We know Karn survived survived and we know that Bolas survived and had his spark altered instead of destroyed. Why would the other 'walkers not have the same experience?
Well, we do not know that Bolas had his spark altered...this was deduced from the available info about the changed nature of the Spark and the fact that Bolas is now undoubtedly alive.
My guess is that every walker who survived Mending found his spark altered. What they have done when they found themselves mortal again....who knows.
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Actually the elder dragon says in Future Sight that "those who wield the trumendous power of the Multiverse will be forced to surrender it back to its source." That probably means all the old 'walkers lost their Sparks after the Mending, only Bolas who expected this to happen was able to 'walk to a place where his Spark would be safe.
Where do you presume such a place could be? And why do you presume that ONLY Bolas could have anticipated the problems that were about to occur? I am sure Karn for example anticipated the problems and as we all know he planeswalked to either a safe place or to the future, thus getting lost in time and space. Additionally I do not see any issue with assuming some of the older walkers may have had the insight into the events unfolding on Dominaria during the mending process to make an effort to preserve their sparks.
I seriously hope that some of the old walkers make an appearance in the new stories, even if it is only as mortals with no spark... cause these new walkers desperately will need mentors, and only the old walkers have the experience and insight necessary to guide these new walkers!
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Until we actually see Bolas, we can't be sure about what happened to him and his spark.
I do think that he wouldn't lose his spark. Wizards has described that the nature of the spark has changed multiversly, I believe (Ask wizards question answered exists?).
As to him having more power then other 'walkers, I think that would be due to things not directly related to the condition of his spark.
Also, planeswalkers could easily have non PW mentors. thinks of a random reference.... DBZ, After all, wasn't Master Roshi Goku's mentor? and Goku was much more powerful then him on the end. I think that Mentorship is more about experience differences then power (in the ability to do stuff physically sense).
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And finally, I definitely don't think the neowalkers need a mentor to learn how to use their abilities. Most of the planeswalkers managed to figure it out on their own so why should this change now?
Two words... Chandra Nalaar
If you recall correctly, she was mentored / apprenticed by / to Jaya Ballard Planeswalker... so um.... yeah they do get mentors from time to time. Doesn't necessarily mean that they need them to learn how to planeswalk or whatever, just means that they might want them to guide them into the meaning of the multiverse.
Also, last I checked, the Nature of the Spark is what changed with the Mending, not the existence of the Spark within older planeswalkers. So I see no reason to assume other older planeswalkers still exist, just that their powers have been modified to fit the confines of the new post-mending world order.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I'm not sure what exactly do you mean, but in FS Bolas says that the existing 'walkers are going to be brought low and he's going to hide himself on a "safe place" to prevent this in his case. And as I said in a different thread, even if other 'walkers expected the Mending to come in advance, they'd also need to figure out how to hide themselves from it. Karn skipped the event in time, Bolas did something what hasn't been explained yet (and what possibly involves Alara) to isolate a plane he escaped to from the rest of Dominia, but the other 'walkers had probably no possibility to escape the Mending.
I am of the strict opinion that Nicol Bolas' place that he escaped to was more of a place to escape the material damage that the mending would cause. Namely his fear was that much of the Multiverse was going to be destroyed by some sort of magical shock waves. He sought a method by which to escape these shock waves, by reaching a remote enough plane that he could fortify from these shock waves, which I personally believe may actually have been one of the Shards of Alara. Possibly Grixis considering that reflects his own color alignments to some extent, but possibly also Jund considering that that is the only Shard that has Dragons on it. In any case I do not think he was able to escape the Multiverse or the effects that it had on his Spark. In otherwords he is just as much of a brady-walker as any other planeswalker.
I also believe that this transformational effect on the spark was not nearly fatal enough to cause all of the planeswalkers except Nicol Bolas or Karn to die. I personally believe it is entirely possible that the new Planeswalkers that we have just been introduced to in Lorwyn and Shards have actually been walkers since before the Mending, and have only just been transformed into brady-walkers due to the mending effects. So no, I do not believe that the Mending was in any way fatal to planeswalkers.
In otherwords, the mending was not in my view necessarily as fatal as you particularly are inclined to believe it was. So I personally believe it is entirely possible that other pre-mending walkers aside from Nicol Bolas and Karn still exist in the Multiverse with their sparks intact, but changed, assuming they were in a remote enough area of the multiverse not to have their spark totally ripped apart by the mending.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Ah, "spark theory." I saw Caranthir mention Urza's spark and the Stones. In an escape from work, I popped in and couldn't resist posting after ages.
I believe many of us (in what seems like ages ago--perhaps because it was?) decided that the Might/Weakstone contained Glacian's unflared spark. At the Battle of Argoth, Urza's own personal spark flared, causing his ascendance. (Gelcur, from the original MtGNews boards insisted WotC stated this, though I don't think any of us have this except by Gelcur's word--and, by his reputation, I'll believe it.) Urza Planeswalker had his own spark but also carried around Glacian's unflared spark.
In the end, when Urza was sacrificed, his CenCon (center of consciousness, a term I suggested (years ago, of course) to be used for the focus of a planeswalker's being--usually a brain, from which s/he created his/her form and body) was lost, but perhaps the spark of Glacian flared. This would provide Karn with his planeswalkerishness--rather than just a planeswalking golem. With Glacian's spark, he was a golem planeswalker (some play on semantics).
I think this was our conclusion. I could be mistaken by time.
As for the Mending . . . I haven't read a novel since Betrayers, so I'm a bit out of the loop.
However, now that old 'walkers are done away with, perhaps this would be a time to revive the CenCon discussion, Caranthir? With a finite example set of what planeswalkers can and cannot do, we could solidify the theory. For those unfamiliar, the CenCon project was an attempt to pin down the workings of a spark and planeswalkers. We used examples from any planeswalker represented in the comics, prerevisionist novels, and revisionist novels to support an over-arching theory which connected each 'walker. We suggested a CenCon (which is why Urza was almost killed by Radiant and K'rrick, or why Taysir was so shattered when Feroz split his skull, or why Urza could not become completely corporeal after the Tolarian blast). It could be a fun project . . .
Another 'walker not mentioned from the pre-revisionist comics is Sandruu. We never heard from him after the Planeswalker War, which he survived.
(*sigh*) Thanks for entertaining my reminiscing . . .
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However, now that old 'walkers are done away with,
That is just the thing, I do not think the Old Planeswalkers are all dead. Sure they are no longer Omnipotent or Immortal... but they are still alive in many cases.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Well, Post-Mending planeswalkers have a much more well-defined set of abilities than old 'Walkers. Basically, a flared spark allows a 'Walker to do two (or maybe just one?) things: 1) Travel between planes, though with great concentration nad/or mana is required to do so; and 2) Is able to draw on mana from locations on other planes besides the one the 'Walker is present on. I say that it may only be one thing because I don't think it's known or not if a regular mage who was transported off-plane would still be able to use mana ties to his home plane, or if this is an ability exclusive to planeswalkers.
This new kind of Spark doesn't require a CenCon explanation or anything similar, because planeswalkers are now mortal beings who have the natural ability for interplanar travel; they cannot reform their body, they age and die normally, etc.
luminum: I'm not sure if I was confusing or not. I suggested a CenCon project as a way to look back at the pre-Mended planeswalkers. Now that no new differences will arise, we can look back and specify the CenCon theory. The initial challenge of it was that with each new book, a 'walker may do something we did not know a 'walker can do. Now we are limited with examples (though still vast). However, it gives us a framework in which to conduct this experiment/research.
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Hmm, what about Windgrace? IIRC, we haven't seen him dead, just getting sucked into the rift and while that is definitely not a pleasant thing to experience, he still might reappear... Somewhere. Or somewhen.
How do you figure? No where does it say that the old planeswalkers died or lost their sparks. In point of fact, it seems to indicate on the Planeswalker Minisite - while it was still up - that the old planeswalkers simply lost omnipotence and immortality, but still retained the ability to planeswalk. In any case I do not see any reason to assume that they are dead. Further I do not see any reason to assume the so called Brady Walkers (Sarkhan Vol and company) are actually so young in comparison to the older Walkers that they did not have the ability to planeswalk prior to the Mending. It would strike me as silly to assume such is the case.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
What old 'walkers are you talking about? The prerevisionist ones are no longer important, and the post-rev ones are all dead with the possible exception of Fiers (who's mentioned in the Scourge novel, never actually appeared in any storyline and I highly doubt we'll ever see him again) and Jaya (Jodah said she's dead, but he was possibly from an alternative timeline, so he may have been wrong; and Chandra knew her which means she's been still alive in the Rift Era).
Okay, so the Pre-Revisionist ones may not have had any actual current canonicity to them. However that does not mean they are not important. Nor does it mean they cannot be brought into the story line at a later date as particular characters, who have awakened as true planeswalkers.
In any case, even if they do not matter, I do not doubt the possible existence of planeswalkers from the pre-mending time that we have yet to actually hear about. Just because we know of the ones that appeared in Canon, does not mean that there were not other planeswalkers that did not make the cut into the stories. It is these other Planeswalkers that I believe would play a part in the coming stories of the Magic the Gathering Universe.
In fact I am firmly of the belief that the so called "Post mending" worlds of Lorwyn and Shards certainly existed prior to the Mending. Additionally I am firmly of the belief that the Planeswalkers that now roam those two worlds also existed prior to the mending... at least in the case of Chandra Nalaar, we have an indication that she existed as a person prior to the Mending (assuming that Jaya actually died prior to the Mending), even if Chandra's planeswalker spark had yet to flare at that point, however I think it is entirely possible that the entire reason Chandra was apprenticed to Jaya is because her planeswalking abilities had flared.
In any case, planeswalkers did not die, at least that is what the "You are a Planeswalker" article gave the indication of. It seemed to indicate that the planeswalker spark was changed with the mending, not that the old planeswalkers were altered to the point where they would die without their old powers.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Not to revisit this old argument, but I would hope the point of the Time Spiral Cycle would be to be an entertaining fantasy trilogy. And ...
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In point of fact, it seems to indicate on the Planeswalker Minisite - while it was still up - that the old planeswalkers simply lost omnipotence and immortality, but still retained the ability to planeswalk.
I remember this as well. So, again, where's the proof? If the "point" was to kill everybody off (and wasn't, again, to be a good story), shouldn't we have evidence of this somewhere?
Until then, there's really no reason to suspect that because the spark was altered that those beings who had the spark prior to the Mending wouldn't have the modified spark post-Mending.
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I am going to go ahead and post the information from the "You are a Planeswalker" article here as well....
The Mending. The Multiverse-changing event that occurred when the last of the planar temporal rifts was closed during the Time Spiral plot. The Mending healed the fractures that spread outward from Dominaria across the Multiverse. These fractures were caused by the actions of powerful planeswalkers, and only planeswalkers could seal them. The Mending altered the nature of the planeswalker spark itself.
After the Mending, the link between the spark and natural talent in magic remains, as does the potential to walk the planes. Planeswalkers now age normally, however, and although their spells protect them from far more harm than a normal being could endure, they can be wounded, and they can die. Planeswalkers must eat, drink, breathe, and sleep. They cannot inherently change shape at will, and they must draw mana from the land like any mage.
Neither of these quotes indicates that the Planeswalkers of old (those that survived the events in Time Spiral Block) actually died during the Mending as well. All it indicates is that their sparks would have been altered to fit the new multiverse order of things. Nothing more and nothing less.
So again, like Eid asked for, I will ask for the proof that the old planeswalkers are dead, and not simply "mended"
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I haven't seen any evidence that points to every old walker suddenly dying once the Mending took effect; all the official word has ever said is that the nature of the spark has changed. That would seem to imply that old walkers now have the same limitations as walkers who ascended after the Mending. See the other thread here which has the specific quote from magicthegathering.com
And, honestly, wouldn't it be nice if we had some ****ing link to the past? The Meandering was bad enough in that it portrayed something incorrect as justification for mass character-nuking and then replaced characters like Jeska and ****ing-Freyalise-for-chrissakes with Fire-Girl and Hunter-Man. Let's not have it kill off all the planeswalkers that weren't involved in that silly story.
The Continuity Team (whose absence I feel on a daily basis) stated that, basically, everything is still in-continuity as long as none of the new books (meaning those printed by WotC themselves) contradict them, at which point they are to be considered pre-revision and not part of continuity any longer. That means that characters that were very good characters like Ravidel, Sandruu, Laina, and all the rest are still part of continuity. Did they die off as a result of the Meandering too? Because, honestly, that would make me hate it even more.
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On the other hand, can you give us some proof that their Sparks were just altered? Those excerpts you've posted just describe how the neowalkers differ from the original ones (at least that's how I understand it), but it says nothing about what happened to the old ones. I think it's because they're simply gone for guys at WotC.
The nature of the sprk has now changed because of the mending, it doesn't matter if they wer eplaneswalkers before or after the mending. They are all now "neowalker" status if they were in the Multiverse during the mending.
BUT it doesn't matter, the current creative teams has stated that they was to make everything themselves and take NOTHING from the previous storylines. Thats what leads me to believe the "spoiler" about you know who being involved in Alara is fake. The current creative team seems hell bent on leaving the past in the past and moving on.
Now if they do it right it could be a breath of fresh air but with the past few books...its not going to be a good thing :-(
Wow, you're the first one who seems to agree with me the spoiler might be a fake (or at least inaccurate). Everyone else said I was just spamming with my need for proofs. I also would probably believe the spoiler if Bolas wasn't in. It seems unlikely they'd print him. It would be great (especially because it would mean I can still hope for a 'walker Karn), but I'm not sure about it.
Just so you know, I think that reason that most people think that the list is real is because similar errors have happened before that has resulted in similar infomation being leaked and being basically true.
Regarding spark nature, I think that there was an ask wizards about it, but I can't find it.
Also, regarding #s of planeswalkers, people has horrible senses of scale in the extremly large and small, so one in a million might be much less or much more then the actual chance.
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So far the only walkers we have 100% confirmation about after the Mending are as follows:
Chandra
Ajani
Garruk
Jace
Lilliana
Tezzeret
Elspeth
Sarkhan
So who else do you think survived the Mending? I know the first person that I can think of off the top of my head is of course going to be the Mightiest of all the Planeswalkers that currently exists.... NICOL BOLAS!!!
So who do you think other than those people survived... Oh and one other stipulation, they must still have Planeswalker powers in some capacity... so no listing people who are known to have lost their spark during the Mending (i.e. Teferi).
Edited to give the thread a reasonable topic title.
Next time, please do not call a thread "I want a list".
-Car.
Well honestly in your thread it was acknowledged that at least two other known Walkers do exist who were not involved in the Mending Directly. Nailah, and Fatima... then someone else also mentioned a planeswalker by the name of Parcher.
So yeah, there are allegedly others out there, the question is how many are there, also the question is, like I just mentioned in your thread, how many planeswalkers have been in existence without us the players actually knowing about them. Cause I doubt all the planeswalkers that exist in the Magic the Gathering Multiverse (at least in WotC's mindscapes) happen to be 100% fleshed out or documented canonically speaking.
EDIT: and on a side note, I would agree that Urza was the most powerful. However he is dead, Nicol Bolas however is fully alive, and well, making him officially THE most powerful Planeswalker in existence TODAY! Please note I have changed the Original post.
Was his spark ignited at the end of the Time Spiral Novels? Or was he simply using his contraption to planeswalk by that point? If it is the former, then I will add him to the list of planeswalkers, but if it is the latter then I don't think he quite qualifies.
Thank you, that is all I was looking for
I also doubt Venser == Jace. Jace's magic focuses on telepathy and the mind. Venser was an artificer; more like Tezzeret.
My Moderator Helpdesk| My Custom Set List | My MSE Template HostingMinor correction. The Mightstone and Weakstone contained ONE spark together - the spark of Glacian of Halcyon.
There's a thread buried in this forum, where issue of Urza, Glacian and Karn, as well as the nature of the planeswalker spark (the pre-Mending one) was discussed very thoroughly...the main discussers being MORT and Sleeping Villian, if I recall correctly.
When Karn ascended, two sparks were "in play" - Urza's own and Glacian's (finally released with the reunion of Might&Weakstone). It is possible that they united in one in Karn. But, and that was emphasized in Planar Chaos, if even Karn lost his spark (which, moreover, he did not lose when closing Tolarian rift (the book states that "the rift gave up before his power did"), he would retain his planeswalking abilities thanks to the Legacy inside him (that included Weatherlight's planeswalking engine).
And yes, Radha's dormant spark was rendered "unflareable" when Jeska used her to close Zhalfirin rift, therefore she is not a neowalker.
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Why? Is there any evidence to support that old 'walkers just died, or disappeared, or lost their sparks or whatever? We know Karn survived survived and we know that Bolas survived and had his spark altered instead of destroyed. Why would the other 'walkers not have the same experience?
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Exactly this thing was discussed in the thread I mentioned.
I think that we concluded that one of the sparks (probably Urza's) was possibly consumed in Legacy blast, but by doing this, it enabled the so-far dormant spark of Glacian to flare and give "life" to Karn Planeswalker.
Well, we do not know that Bolas had his spark altered...this was deduced from the available info about the changed nature of the Spark and the fact that Bolas is now undoubtedly alive.
My guess is that every walker who survived Mending found his spark altered. What they have done when they found themselves mortal again....who knows.
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Where do you presume such a place could be? And why do you presume that ONLY Bolas could have anticipated the problems that were about to occur? I am sure Karn for example anticipated the problems and as we all know he planeswalked to either a safe place or to the future, thus getting lost in time and space. Additionally I do not see any issue with assuming some of the older walkers may have had the insight into the events unfolding on Dominaria during the mending process to make an effort to preserve their sparks.
I seriously hope that some of the old walkers make an appearance in the new stories, even if it is only as mortals with no spark... cause these new walkers desperately will need mentors, and only the old walkers have the experience and insight necessary to guide these new walkers!
I do think that he wouldn't lose his spark. Wizards has described that the nature of the spark has changed multiversly, I believe (Ask wizards question answered exists?).
As to him having more power then other 'walkers, I think that would be due to things not directly related to the condition of his spark.
Also, planeswalkers could easily have non PW mentors. thinks of a random reference.... DBZ, After all, wasn't Master Roshi Goku's mentor? and Goku was much more powerful then him on the end. I think that Mentorship is more about experience differences then power (in the ability to do stuff physically sense).
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Two words... Chandra Nalaar
If you recall correctly, she was mentored / apprenticed by / to Jaya Ballard Planeswalker... so um.... yeah they do get mentors from time to time. Doesn't necessarily mean that they need them to learn how to planeswalk or whatever, just means that they might want them to guide them into the meaning of the multiverse.
Also, last I checked, the Nature of the Spark is what changed with the Mending, not the existence of the Spark within older planeswalkers. So I see no reason to assume other older planeswalkers still exist, just that their powers have been modified to fit the confines of the new post-mending world order.
I believe many of us (in what seems like ages ago--perhaps because it was?) decided that the Might/Weakstone contained Glacian's unflared spark. At the Battle of Argoth, Urza's own personal spark flared, causing his ascendance. (Gelcur, from the original MtGNews boards insisted WotC stated this, though I don't think any of us have this except by Gelcur's word--and, by his reputation, I'll believe it.) Urza Planeswalker had his own spark but also carried around Glacian's unflared spark.
In the end, when Urza was sacrificed, his CenCon (center of consciousness, a term I suggested (years ago, of course) to be used for the focus of a planeswalker's being--usually a brain, from which s/he created his/her form and body) was lost, but perhaps the spark of Glacian flared. This would provide Karn with his planeswalkerishness--rather than just a planeswalking golem. With Glacian's spark, he was a golem planeswalker (some play on semantics).
I think this was our conclusion. I could be mistaken by time.
As for the Mending . . . I haven't read a novel since Betrayers, so I'm a bit out of the loop.
However, now that old 'walkers are done away with, perhaps this would be a time to revive the CenCon discussion, Caranthir? With a finite example set of what planeswalkers can and cannot do, we could solidify the theory. For those unfamiliar, the CenCon project was an attempt to pin down the workings of a spark and planeswalkers. We used examples from any planeswalker represented in the comics, prerevisionist novels, and revisionist novels to support an over-arching theory which connected each 'walker. We suggested a CenCon (which is why Urza was almost killed by Radiant and K'rrick, or why Taysir was so shattered when Feroz split his skull, or why Urza could not become completely corporeal after the Tolarian blast). It could be a fun project . . .
Another 'walker not mentioned from the pre-revisionist comics is Sandruu. We never heard from him after the Planeswalker War, which he survived.
(*sigh*) Thanks for entertaining my reminiscing . . .
That is just the thing, I do not think the Old Planeswalkers are all dead. Sure they are no longer Omnipotent or Immortal... but they are still alive in many cases.
This new kind of Spark doesn't require a CenCon explanation or anything similar, because planeswalkers are now mortal beings who have the natural ability for interplanar travel; they cannot reform their body, they age and die normally, etc.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
How do you figure? No where does it say that the old planeswalkers died or lost their sparks. In point of fact, it seems to indicate on the Planeswalker Minisite - while it was still up - that the old planeswalkers simply lost omnipotence and immortality, but still retained the ability to planeswalk. In any case I do not see any reason to assume that they are dead. Further I do not see any reason to assume the so called Brady Walkers (Sarkhan Vol and company) are actually so young in comparison to the older Walkers that they did not have the ability to planeswalk prior to the Mending. It would strike me as silly to assume such is the case.
Okay, so the Pre-Revisionist ones may not have had any actual current canonicity to them. However that does not mean they are not important. Nor does it mean they cannot be brought into the story line at a later date as particular characters, who have awakened as true planeswalkers.
In any case, even if they do not matter, I do not doubt the possible existence of planeswalkers from the pre-mending time that we have yet to actually hear about. Just because we know of the ones that appeared in Canon, does not mean that there were not other planeswalkers that did not make the cut into the stories. It is these other Planeswalkers that I believe would play a part in the coming stories of the Magic the Gathering Universe.
In fact I am firmly of the belief that the so called "Post mending" worlds of Lorwyn and Shards certainly existed prior to the Mending. Additionally I am firmly of the belief that the Planeswalkers that now roam those two worlds also existed prior to the mending... at least in the case of Chandra Nalaar, we have an indication that she existed as a person prior to the Mending (assuming that Jaya actually died prior to the Mending), even if Chandra's planeswalker spark had yet to flare at that point, however I think it is entirely possible that the entire reason Chandra was apprenticed to Jaya is because her planeswalking abilities had flared.
In any case, planeswalkers did not die, at least that is what the "You are a Planeswalker" article gave the indication of. It seemed to indicate that the planeswalker spark was changed with the mending, not that the old planeswalkers were altered to the point where they would die without their old powers.
Not to revisit this old argument, but I would hope the point of the Time Spiral Cycle would be to be an entertaining fantasy trilogy. And ...
I remember this as well. So, again, where's the proof? If the "point" was to kill everybody off (and wasn't, again, to be a good story), shouldn't we have evidence of this somewhere?
Until then, there's really no reason to suspect that because the spark was altered that those beings who had the spark prior to the Mending wouldn't have the modified spark post-Mending.
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Neither of these quotes indicates that the Planeswalkers of old (those that survived the events in Time Spiral Block) actually died during the Mending as well. All it indicates is that their sparks would have been altered to fit the new multiverse order of things. Nothing more and nothing less.
So again, like Eid asked for, I will ask for the proof that the old planeswalkers are dead, and not simply "mended"
Edit: 'nathed.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
The Continuity Team (whose absence I feel on a daily basis) stated that, basically, everything is still in-continuity as long as none of the new books (meaning those printed by WotC themselves) contradict them, at which point they are to be considered pre-revision and not part of continuity any longer. That means that characters that were very good characters like Ravidel, Sandruu, Laina, and all the rest are still part of continuity. Did they die off as a result of the Meandering too? Because, honestly, that would make me hate it even more.
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The nature of the sprk has now changed because of the mending, it doesn't matter if they wer eplaneswalkers before or after the mending. They are all now "neowalker" status if they were in the Multiverse during the mending.
BUT it doesn't matter, the current creative teams has stated that they was to make everything themselves and take NOTHING from the previous storylines. Thats what leads me to believe the "spoiler" about you know who being involved in Alara is fake. The current creative team seems hell bent on leaving the past in the past and moving on.
Now if they do it right it could be a breath of fresh air but with the past few books...its not going to be a good thing :-(
Just so you know, I think that reason that most people think that the list is real is because similar errors have happened before that has resulted in similar infomation being leaked and being basically true.
Regarding spark nature, I think that there was an ask wizards about it, but I can't find it.
Also, regarding #s of planeswalkers, people has horrible senses of scale in the extremly large and small, so one in a million might be much less or much more then the actual chance.
Butcher of Words.
Made by Spiderboy4