I think the Magic Crative Team may have forgotten something very important:
Mirrodin takes place after everything.
That creates some plot-holes (fixible ones, only if they change the course of the present storyline.
First, the nature of Planeswalking changed after the Mending, but on Mirrodin thousands of years later, Slobad was able to Planeswalk just as easily as the Planeswalkers of old.
Second, Karn panicked in Planar Chaos when he realized Memnarch's corruption. But surely Memnarch hadn't turned into an insane tyrant by then... Mirrodin was very new at that time, and so was Memnarch.
Please observe this rough timeline:
Karona -- 100 years after Apocalypse.
TS -- 100 (or was it 300) years after Karona.
Present story -- Over a hundred years after the mending.
Mirrodin -- Many millenia after Karona.
On a side note, this also puts the Ravnica Storyline back before Mirrodin as well, since the future, guildless Ravnica was seen in the Present Story.
The timeline inconsistencies i mentioned before bother me a bit. The story might try to bring in Glissa, Slobad, Geth, and the Mirari back in soon, while they still aren't due for a couple thousand years.
This is old discussion. And the only answere is that time flows differently on different planes. So Mirrodin's time would be much faster than time on most of other planes.
I guess that's one way you could look at it.
Sorry, I really should have done a topic search. I haven't been on these forums for a long time.
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The only way it works is the "time flows different on Mirrodin" scenario. The Mirrodin storyline is referenced in the Time Spiral storyline, so it did happen before that storyline.
And, yes, it doesn't make a blessed bit of sense, but roll with it.
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it's possible that the mending fixed that time warping on mirrodin anyway
I don't see how. The events of the Mirrodin Cycle had already occurred. The Meandering wouldn't have fixed it unless it removed the storyline from the timeline or something.
Which, yes, wouldn't bother a lot of people.
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All that you really need to know is that Karn had little access or influence on mirrodin after a certain point, and that time in mirrodin was faster than anywhere else (most likely because of an issue when it was created, and Dominaria's influence).
Mirrodin was pre-mending, so in the end it sort of makes sense.
I don't see how. The events of the Mirrodin Cycle had already occurred. The Meandering wouldn't have fixed it unless it removed the storyline from the timeline or something.
Which, yes, wouldn't bother a lot of people.
It wouldn't change anything, the time would be relative anyway. Mirrodin wouldn't feel any different. It's time would have been "slowed" to what everywhere else's was. sure, the plane would seem way older, but it IS artificial, so it may have caught up to dominaria now (time wise, with years and such).
I don't see how. The events of the Mirrodin Cycle had already occurred. The Meandering wouldn't have fixed it unless it removed the storyline from the timeline or something.
Which, yes, wouldn't bother a lot of people.
That makes sense. Not.
You just said the events in Mirrodin happened at a different rate, so what if the story of Mirrodin was happening right before the Mending?
And didn't Karn arrive with Jeska at the end? They might have parted right off from there to Dominaria.
The way I see it:
Karona <-------------------------------------------------------> Mending
Creation of Mirrodin <-----------------------------**** happens-> Mending
With each hyphen representing much less time in Dominaria than in Mirr.
It doesn't make sense, but that's the way it is. Jhoira mentions the events of the Mirrodin Cycle to Venser, including naming it by the term Memnarch gave it, and also mentioning that Karn's creation caused lots of trouble for the plane before Karn sorted it out. So, yes, as stupid as it may seem, the Mirrodin Cycle happened before the Time Spiral Cycle and was completely finished before that cycle began.
Your timeline would look like this:
1 - Karn leaves Dominaria with the Mirari and unconscious Jeska.
|
2 - Karn leaves Argentum with Jeska, leaving Memnarch in charge. Memnarch goes crazy from the Phyrexian oil.
|
3 - Millennia pass on Mirrodin. Eventually Memnarch is killed and Karn is able to return.
|
4 - Karn revisits Dominaria roughly 200 years after he last left it in point "1".
Millennia on Mirrodin = 200 years on Dominaria. See why nobody wants to update the wiki's timeline anymore?
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It doesn't make sense, but that's the way it is. Jhoira mentions the events of the Mirrodin Cycle to Venser, including naming it by the term Memnarch gave it, and also mentioning that Karn's creation caused lots of trouble for the plane before Karn sorted it out. So, yes, as stupid as it may seem, the Mirrodin Cycle happened before the Time Spiral Cycle and was completely finished before that cycle began.
Your timeline would look like this:
1 - Karn leaves Dominaria with the Mirari and unconscious Jeska.
|
2 - Karn leaves Argentum with Jeska, leaving Memnarch in charge. Memnarch goes crazy from the Phyrexian oil.
|
3 - Millennia pass on Mirrodin. Eventually Memnarch is killed and Karn is able to return.
|
4 - Karn revisits Dominaria roughly 200 years after he last left it in point "1".
Millennia on Mirrodin = 200 years on Dominaria. See why nobody wants to update the wiki's timeline anymore?
That's correct, maybe Mirrodin simply needs a different way of keeping it's time (with dominaria's) if we have a more specific number than Millenia it wouldn't even be that hard
Lame, but that's almost helpful. We don't need a secure timeline then we can just make it known that the time is different, but the story happens in 200 years on Dominaria. seems kinda simple
the writers didn't have sufficient knowledge of the previous timeline.
Aside from the error in the flavor text of Ur-Golem's Eye, are there other references to millennia or eons having passed? (I can think of two small mentions in the Mirrodin novels that might be misleading timeline-wise, but I'm wondering what your basis is.)
Aside from the error in the flavor text of Ur-Golem's Eye, are there other references to millennia or eons having passed? (I can think of two small mentions in the Mirrodin novels that might be misleading timeline-wise, but I'm wondering what your basis is.)
That's the flavor text I'm thinking of, the one that mentions millennia passing. Just a rough go-through of the Mirrodin Cycle:
The Moons of Mirrodin:
page 4 (I think) - Paragraph four mentions Karn bringing the Mirari to Argeuntum a century after the Phyrexian Invasion. Not extremely relevant, but a good starting point for a frame of reference I think.
The Darksteel eye:
page 249 - Interesting bit here. Al-Hayat mentions that he has seen a lot of Mirrodin's history over the years. He has seen the creation of the blue, black, and red moons (the white moon evidently predates him). It's interesting because other inhabitants of Mirrodin have lived their entire lives under the gaze of the four non-green moons. This tells us two things, I think. One, Al-Hayat is a really old puppy dog. Two, the intervals between the births of new moons is very large. Again, not much to go on, but since elves typically live a thousand years and they don't seem to remember the births of new moons, we can perhaps deduce that at least several thousand years have passed.
Or I could be completely wrong here.
The Fifth Dawn:
page 195 - Okay, here's where things get definitive. Glissa mentions here that the walls are coated with centuries of smoke residue. Centuries = more than one century.
page 36 - "I have known [Glissa's] family for centuries," said some elvish guy.
page 12 - The Tangle has been hardened by centuries of moonlight.
Personally I think it's fairly easy to explain away. Karn needed to create a plane that isn't overtly difficult to maintain. Therefore he made a plane without any noticeable passage of time. [/story]?
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@ Domineer: Crap. I thought Ur-Golem's Eye was the only card error. (It was meant to be centuries, not millennia. Not even the better part of a millennium.)
since elves typically live a thousand years and they don't seem to remember the births of new moons, we can perhaps deduce that at least several thousand years have passed.
Was this the recurring mind-wipe? It's been so long since I've read these books I can't remember all of the plot. If so, was Al-Hayat not subject to those? Or was that not plane-wide and was just for elves?
*sigh* My stack of Magic books I need to re-read increases almost daily.
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As much as I didn't like the Mirrodin books, I do want to see some more resolution from that storyline. What happened to Glissa and Slobad? What are Karn's plans for the Mirari? Who is going to get their hands on the Mirari next?
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Wait, so the part where Karn runs away in Planar Chaos is confirmed to be him realizing Memnarch went bad? Or is that just OP speculation?
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Started playing since Invasion, stopped at Scourge. Returned briefly during BoK's introduction of ninjas. Finally back into magic during Shadowmoor/Eventide.
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Actually, anyone who's listened to the Podcasts knows that I would be happy if we never spoke of Mirrodin again!
Alright, maybe it has potential, but whoever is given the job of turning it into a worthwhile plane has their work cut out for them.
Hm, I'm scouring the beginning of Mirrodin for mentions of time passages, but I haven't found anything utterly damning yet. We might be able to give the flavor text the discontinuity treatment and accept that time flows the same way. I would be ok with that.
Also, Hi Brady! I followed everyone from the Gleemax forums here, just so I could still plague you while those forums are down.
I am at work unfortunately so I do not have the book with me, when I get home I will point out the examples.
I am a big anti-Mirrodin timeline discussion guy. The timeline simply does not fit within the storyline provided. The only thing that makes sense is if time flows differently on Mirrodin and unless offically stated in the novels then I will not believe that.
In all honesty I think it is like the summoning/magic situation. The way people use magic varies from author to author(compare the modern characters to ice age arc) and it is left to their interpretation. This does not really affect the storyline since, technically, it could be different between each mage. I think they let the author of Moons of Mirrodin have a little too much freedom with the timeline and it was just never fixed. no one has offically ever commented on it and given us a definitive answer, which leads me to believe they just want it swept under the rug :-(
I was wondering if MTGS would get an influx of posters with Gleemax down.
Yes.
Eh, Mirrodin's timeline isn't important really. We have the start of it, and we have the end. What comes in the middle doesn't matter since nothing could enter or leave the plane.
Though i like to think of Mirrodin as being isolated in a time bubble by the time rifts and leave it at that. Mirrodin is directly tied into Karona so we don't really know what kind of permanent damage that caused to the plane.
In the end I hope creative learned a lesson from Mirrodin about keeping better track of time. (And from Time spiral, keeping better track of location)
I was wondering if MTGS would get an influx of posters with Gleemax down.
Yeah, wierdos.
I like to think Mirrodin never happened, nothing important happened in the grand scheme of things anyway. Unless it turned out the oil was Step 1 in Yawgmoths plan for invasion of the Plane.
I like to think Mirrodin never happened, nothing important happened in the grand scheme of things anyway. Unless it turned out the oil was Step 1 in Yawgmoths plan for invasion of the Plane.
Certainly seemed that way seeing as how the book preceding that one revealed he was still alive. That was back when we thought the creative team knew had a plan for another ongoing storyline, though. Ah, we were so innocent in those days.
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Certainly seemed that way seeing as how the book preceding that one revealed he was still alive. That was back when we thought the creative team knew had a plan for another ongoing storyline, though. Ah, we were so innocent in those days.
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Ah the good ol days when the portal men were comical. When we thought Karona actually resurrected the characters and spoke to the true Tefiri. Wow the good ol days, I miss my ignorance!
I have been sick with a stomach bug so I will have the proof that millenia took place in Moons over the weekend.
- Karn creates Argentum.
- Karn creates many probes and sends them out into the multiverse. The Mirari lands on Dominaria.
- The events of scourge happens, Memnarch is made Warden of Argentum in Karn's absense.
- Memnarch becomes curropted, decides to bring life to Argentum, renames it Mirrodin.
- Memnarch creates a race of Golems to terriform the land, and to fight off the Mycosynth invasion.
- Memnarch begins bringing races from other planes to Mirrodin.
- Golems finish terriforming Mirrodin, Memnarch destroys them for failing to stop the Mycosynth.
- The mana core, destablized by the Time rifts, begins breaking down, releasing spheres of concentrated mana. (the suns)
- The Levelers were released across Mirrodin ten times.
- The events of the Mirrodin Cycle occur.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyways, besides the 1,000 year figure mentioned twice, we don't have any timescale for any other events.
So on Mirrodin, we have 1000+ years pass.
Inside Mirrodin we have 200 years passing.
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Mirrodin takes place after everything.
That creates some plot-holes (fixible ones, only if they change the course of the present storyline.
First, the nature of Planeswalking changed after the Mending, but on Mirrodin thousands of years later, Slobad was able to Planeswalk just as easily as the Planeswalkers of old.
Second, Karn panicked in Planar Chaos when he realized Memnarch's corruption. But surely Memnarch hadn't turned into an insane tyrant by then... Mirrodin was very new at that time, and so was Memnarch.
Please observe this rough timeline:
Karona -- 100 years after Apocalypse.
TS -- 100 (or was it 300) years after Karona.
Present story -- Over a hundred years after the mending.
Mirrodin -- Many millenia after Karona.
On a side note, this also puts the Ravnica Storyline back before Mirrodin as well, since the future, guildless Ravnica was seen in the Present Story.
The timeline inconsistencies i mentioned before bother me a bit. The story might try to bring in Glissa, Slobad, Geth, and the Mirari back in soon, while they still aren't due for a couple thousand years.
Your thoughts?
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I guess that's one way you could look at it.
Sorry, I really should have done a topic search. I haven't been on these forums for a long time.
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Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
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And, yes, it doesn't make a blessed bit of sense, but roll with it.
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I don't see how. The events of the Mirrodin Cycle had already occurred. The Meandering wouldn't have fixed it unless it removed the storyline from the timeline or something.
Which, yes, wouldn't bother a lot of people.
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Mirrodin was pre-mending, so in the end it sort of makes sense.
It wouldn't change anything, the time would be relative anyway. Mirrodin wouldn't feel any different. It's time would have been "slowed" to what everywhere else's was. sure, the plane would seem way older, but it IS artificial, so it may have caught up to dominaria now (time wise, with years and such).
That makes sense. Not.
You just said the events in Mirrodin happened at a different rate, so what if the story of Mirrodin was happening right before the Mending?
And didn't Karn arrive with Jeska at the end? They might have parted right off from there to Dominaria.
The way I see it:
Karona <-------------------------------------------------------> Mending
Creation of Mirrodin <-----------------------------**** happens-> Mending
With each hyphen representing much less time in Dominaria than in Mirr.
Your timeline would look like this:
1 - Karn leaves Dominaria with the Mirari and unconscious Jeska.
|
2 - Karn leaves Argentum with Jeska, leaving Memnarch in charge. Memnarch goes crazy from the Phyrexian oil.
|
3 - Millennia pass on Mirrodin. Eventually Memnarch is killed and Karn is able to return.
|
4 - Karn revisits Dominaria roughly 200 years after he last left it in point "1".
Millennia on Mirrodin = 200 years on Dominaria. See why nobody wants to update the wiki's timeline anymore?
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That's correct, maybe Mirrodin simply needs a different way of keeping it's time (with dominaria's) if we have a more specific number than Millenia it wouldn't even be that hard
Aside from the error in the flavor text of Ur-Golem's Eye, are there other references to millennia or eons having passed? (I can think of two small mentions in the Mirrodin novels that might be misleading timeline-wise, but I'm wondering what your basis is.)
That's the flavor text I'm thinking of, the one that mentions millennia passing. Just a rough go-through of the Mirrodin Cycle:
The Moons of Mirrodin:
page 4 (I think) - Paragraph four mentions Karn bringing the Mirari to Argeuntum a century after the Phyrexian Invasion. Not extremely relevant, but a good starting point for a frame of reference I think.
The Darksteel eye:
page 249 - Interesting bit here. Al-Hayat mentions that he has seen a lot of Mirrodin's history over the years. He has seen the creation of the blue, black, and red moons (the white moon evidently predates him). It's interesting because other inhabitants of Mirrodin have lived their entire lives under the gaze of the four non-green moons. This tells us two things, I think. One, Al-Hayat is a really old puppy dog. Two, the intervals between the births of new moons is very large. Again, not much to go on, but since elves typically live a thousand years and they don't seem to remember the births of new moons, we can perhaps deduce that at least several thousand years have passed.
Or I could be completely wrong here.
The Fifth Dawn:
page 195 - Okay, here's where things get definitive. Glissa mentions here that the walls are coated with centuries of smoke residue. Centuries = more than one century.
page 36 - "I have known [Glissa's] family for centuries," said some elvish guy.
page 12 - The Tangle has been hardened by centuries of moonlight.
Personally I think it's fairly easy to explain away. Karn needed to create a plane that isn't overtly difficult to maintain. Therefore he made a plane without any noticeable passage of time. [/story]?
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The Rebuking Ceremony covers that.
Was this the recurring mind-wipe? It's been so long since I've read these books I can't remember all of the plot. If so, was Al-Hayat not subject to those? Or was that not plane-wide and was just for elves?
*sigh* My stack of Magic books I need to re-read increases almost daily.
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Alright, maybe it has potential, but whoever is given the job of turning it into a worthwhile plane has their work cut out for them.
Hm, I'm scouring the beginning of Mirrodin for mentions of time passages, but I haven't found anything utterly damning yet. We might be able to give the flavor text the discontinuity treatment and accept that time flows the same way. I would be ok with that.
Also, Hi Brady! I followed everyone from the Gleemax forums here, just so I could still plague you while those forums are down.
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I am a big anti-Mirrodin timeline discussion guy. The timeline simply does not fit within the storyline provided. The only thing that makes sense is if time flows differently on Mirrodin and unless offically stated in the novels then I will not believe that.
In all honesty I think it is like the summoning/magic situation. The way people use magic varies from author to author(compare the modern characters to ice age arc) and it is left to their interpretation. This does not really affect the storyline since, technically, it could be different between each mage. I think they let the author of Moons of Mirrodin have a little too much freedom with the timeline and it was just never fixed. no one has offically ever commented on it and given us a definitive answer, which leads me to believe they just want it swept under the rug :-(
Again when I get home I will pull the novel out.
Yes.
Eh, Mirrodin's timeline isn't important really. We have the start of it, and we have the end. What comes in the middle doesn't matter since nothing could enter or leave the plane.
Though i like to think of Mirrodin as being isolated in a time bubble by the time rifts and leave it at that. Mirrodin is directly tied into Karona so we don't really know what kind of permanent damage that caused to the plane.
In the end I hope creative learned a lesson from Mirrodin about keeping better track of time. (And from Time spiral, keeping better track of location)
Yeah, wierdos.
I like to think Mirrodin never happened, nothing important happened in the grand scheme of things anyway. Unless it turned out the oil was Step 1 in Yawgmoths plan for invasion of the Plane.
Certainly seemed that way seeing as how the book preceding that one revealed he was still alive. That was back when we thought the creative team knew had a plan for another ongoing storyline, though. Ah, we were so innocent in those days.
:: plays Pink Floyd's High Hopes ::
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Ah the good ol days when the portal men were comical. When we thought Karona actually resurrected the characters and spoke to the true Tefiri. Wow the good ol days, I miss my ignorance!
I have been sick with a stomach bug so I will have the proof that millenia took place in Moons over the weekend.
From Ur-golem's eye and Domineer we know that it has been 1,000 years since Memnarch destroyed his Golems.
Cobalt Golem, Hematite Golem, Malachite Golem, Pewter Golem, and Titanium Golem all imply that Memnarch built the Ur-golems before he began terriforming Mirrodin.
Seething Song implies that the Vulshok witnessed the emergence of the red sun. (which has also become part of goblin lore)
Bosh sank into the Dross. That's why he survived where as the other Ur-golems were destroyed.
Leveler tells us that every century they go into action.
Tel-Jilad Stylus & Tree of Tales both refer to the tree of tales holding mirrodin's orgins (Except for a spot erased by someone)
The four towers go through a quick story of Memnarch's transformation... Tower of Champions, Tower of Murmurs, Tower of Fortunes, Tower of Eons.
So a quick timeline would be...
- Karn creates Argentum.
- Karn creates many probes and sends them out into the multiverse. The Mirari lands on Dominaria.
- The events of scourge happens, Memnarch is made Warden of Argentum in Karn's absense.
- Memnarch becomes curropted, decides to bring life to Argentum, renames it Mirrodin.
- Memnarch creates a race of Golems to terriform the land, and to fight off the Mycosynth invasion.
- Memnarch begins bringing races from other planes to Mirrodin.
- Golems finish terriforming Mirrodin, Memnarch destroys them for failing to stop the Mycosynth.
- The mana core, destablized by the Time rifts, begins breaking down, releasing spheres of concentrated mana. (the suns)
- The Levelers were released across Mirrodin ten times.
- The events of the Mirrodin Cycle occur.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyways, besides the 1,000 year figure mentioned twice, we don't have any timescale for any other events.
So on Mirrodin, we have 1000+ years pass.
Inside Mirrodin we have 200 years passing.