This is a wiki-related post and I know we have a forum devoted to that, but (a) it's pretty empty and (b) this is a huge storyline issue.
For about a year now I've been kind of glaring at the omissions in the timeline due to the creative team's not feeling the need to give us any indication of when entire cycles happen (other than "before the Meandering" and "after the Meandering"). But I would really like to have the events of the Ravnica Cycle, Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Cycle, and the upcoming Alara storyline take place on the timeline.
Proposals:
- The Ravnica Cycle will be a "???" placed between the Mirrodin events and the Time Spiral events (as we know the decamillennial occurred sometime between that time frame). As for the actual signing of the Guildpact, how about we put that as an "???" at the beginning of the timeline somewhere with the other unknown dates between the Dragon Wars and the rise of the Thran. I think this is a good place to put it, as Niv-Mizzet is mentioned as being 15,000 years old (which, yes, I know may not be relative to Dominarian time but still) and it seems more important to try to keep the timeline all-encompassing, even if the Brady Bunch doesn't want to do that anymore.
- The Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Cycles are much easier, and should be a "???" placed between after the Meandering. The events surrounding the Great Aurora would fit in with this time. We can also make a note in the above-mentioned "general we-don't-know-when-the-hell-this-happened" dates between the Dragon Wars and the rise of the Thran as to Oona's role in manipulating the plane's stability. We don't know how far back in time Oona did this, but again I think a mention of an as-yet-undefined date is more impotant than not mentioning this happening at all.
- Alara events should (I'm including Agents of Artifice here) should be placed just like the Lorwyn events, in a "???" section probably after Lorwyn (which is itself after the Meandering). Tezzeret mentions that Bolas is a 25,000 year old dragon in AoA, so I think that places the events of that book somewhere around 5000 AR (very rough estimate). The only concrete date estimates we have (thanks to the poster with the dancing lizard avatar whose name I can't remember (and apologize for that)) are that around 120 years have passed between whenever Liliana Vess made her pact with demons and the events of AoA. That would--again, rougly--coincide with the 5000 AR date.
Thoughts?
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Eid, as you have been more involved in Continuity than I have been as of late, I would vouch for your proposals. All appear sound to me (for whatever my support is worth).
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Ajani and the rest of 'Walkers who were in printed in Lorwyn had nothing to do with the story of Lorrwyn. So we don't truly know which happened first.
I know this doesn't make the job any easier, but card sets aren't strictly sequential, unlike most of the narratives.
For example, the Guildpact and Dissension card sets don't really come after the Ravnica set, per se. The three sets taken together sort of represent a single period of time on the plane, diced up into three chunks. (The novels corresponding to those sets are sequential, though.)
Another example is Lorwyn/Morningtide and Shadowmoor/Eventide. Except for the handful of references to the events of the novels, you could switch the positions of the two pairs of sets without deeply affecting anything.
From the point of view of making cards, we need the ability to mix it up, to make sets sequential sometimes and irrelevant to sequentiality at other times. We will maintain an association between the sets and books but not a strict adherence.
And I know nothing at all about Dark Legacy. Was that one on Dominaria at all? Our Wiki describes it as happening under the "Twin moons of Dominia", which is odd...
Urza created a second artificial moon on dominaria, it could be refering to that, if it is, it would put it somewhere before the birth of planeswalker karn, since the birth of karn destroyed the moon; and the time it went up, which is described in one of the novels.
the moon was in the sky for so long, very few realized it was artificial and a lot had forgotten urza put it there, and refered to it as dominaria's second moon.
Am I the only one that finds it silly that it is now offical that cards can basically come form any time now? So basically all of Lorwyn/Shadowmoor could have happened in the future or the past in the overall storyline...since the Planeswalker cards don't really count against the story. I just honestly don't understand why you would put a card in a set, release a book about the set and then tell us the cards don't all fall into the storyline. It just causes more confusion. Things like artifacts and lands really don't need to be part of the stories timeline, they can all be hundreds of years old and still be functional. To say though that the Planeswalekrs released with Lorwyn had nothing to do with that timeline is just...unless we are told that when the set is released we it obvious that all of the cards would fit into the timeline of the story.
I do agree though, especially after this thread, that Lorwyn/Shadowmoor should now be placed asid ein the timeline in a ??? section and note on all of the events that we are not 100% sure where they fall that this information could be wrong, that it is just an educated guess.
Btw. if the Lorwyn 'walkers have nothing to do with the storyline and/or the plane, we have no reason to think the Lorwan block storyline took placve before the Mending ;).
On the contrary, we know it took place after the Meandering. Oona mentions a crisis on another plane of existence interfering with her ability to regulate the Auroras. And then there's the matter of Jace visiting Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, which I realize is a little too convenient to be considered cannon.
---
So here's my proposal (I think a simple visual suggestion would help a bit):
-20,000 - The Elder Dragon Wars
??? - Oona starts doing Aurora stuff here.*****
-10,000 - Niv-Mizzet is born*. VERY problematic, see below.
-5,000 - The Guildpact is signed.** VERY problematic, see below below.
??? - Ravnica Cycle could happen here.**
0 AR - Urza is born, things happen.
??? - Ravnica Cycle could happen here.**
4205 AR - Apocalypse
??? - Ravnica Cycle could happen here.**
4500 AR - Worst storyline ever occurs.
??? - Ravnica Cycle has to have already occurred prior to 4500 AR.
??? - Lorwyn stuff.***
??? - Alara stuff.****
* - Okay, this gets tricky. We know that during the Ravnica Cycle, Niv-Mizzet's age is given as 15,000. Fine, cool. We know that the Ravnica Cycle happened before the Meandering, meaning before 4500 AR. Cool and the gang. BUT, how long before the Meandering did it occur? This is tricky. We know it occurred before the Meandering, because Agyrem came into existence during the Ravnica Cycle, at we saw Agyrem during the epic Leshrac vs. Bolas fight. Okay, so there's our evidence. So we know it happened before then, but when before then? Does anybody have any idea of this? Assuming that Ravnican time operates just as Dominarian time (and this isn't that big of an assumption because we only know of one world that operates with super-fast time relative to Dominarian time--Mirrodin), that would put the signing of the Guildpact at around ... you know what, this needs its own footnote.
** - Now then. Okay. We know that the Guildpact was signed 10,000 years before the Ravnica Cycle. Great. (Incidentally, that would mean it was also signed 5,000 years after the birth of Niv-Mizzet--which is wonderful). And that's Ravnica-time, which may or may not (and probably isn't) 100% relative to Dominarian time. But, again, Mirrodin is the only plane that we know has screwy time relative to Dominaria. Others could have similar time, or very dissimilar time. Who knows? The timeline is a very rough estimate for when events occurred (other than 4205 AR and other concrete dates--and there are precious, precious few of those). But, again, the problem comes with how much time has passed between the ending of the Ravnica Cycle and the beginning of the Monday Cycle. We know one took place before the other, but do we have any indication of how much time passed between the two cycles? If there's some evidence here, this will consolidate our timeline in a biiiiiig way. Otherwise it's just going to be "??? - Ravnica Cycle stuff happened." And we could honestly but that line anywhere from the Brothers' War to the World Spell to the time the Ineffable put on his puppet show.
(Personally, if Niv-Mizzet showed up in the Alara book and just answered some of these questions, that'd be great. He's rumored to be a fairly knowledgeable chap.)
*** - This is MUCH easier. We know it took place post-4500 AR. That's all we know, BUT there's nothing suggesting it happened a billion years into the future or two days after Future Sight. This one seems easy. Let's just put it in a "???" immediately following the Meandering and call it a day.
**** - Again, pretty easy. We know it happened post-4500 AR. Cool. Let's do another "???" entry after the Meandering. Let's also put it after Lorwyn. We have no evidence that these events happened after the Great Aurora, but I think it's more important to include these events in a general area and then update them as we find more information.
***** - We don't know WHEN she started doing the Auroras, but we also don't know when Serra was born and when she created her plane. In the original timeline Squeeman created and I contributed to, we placed any and all dates for ancient events immediately after the now-known-to-be-incorrect date (thanks, Squirrel) of -25,000 AR. This includes the founding of the Sheoltun Empire, Old Vodalia, Taysir's ascendance, etc. I personally would just like to make mention of it somewhere in that area.
Big post, please let me know what you think.
Incidentally, I appreciate that there is still one forum on the thrice-damned Internets that has a dedicated Magic storyline section. Lord knows the WotC forums don't as of two weeks ago. Ugh.
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I agree, thank god there are a few people who enjoy the storyline because I no longer play the card game, I am just dedicated to the books.
The porblem with Oona is the "crisis on anothe rplane of existence" could also be Urza using the cylex and creating the shard around Dominaria and company.
That's a good point. I seem to remember the book more-or-less hinted at the "crisis on another plane" being the Meandering, but it could have been one of the other thousand things that seem to happen on Dominaria and bother everyone.
Does anyone have anything else to add about this particular issue? I can't remember where I read it, but I've been under the assumption that Oona was referring to the Meandering.
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To tell the truth I honestly don't know. Lorwyn/Shadowmoor was more of a chore to get through then an enjoyable book and could eaisly have said Mending when explaining the crisis and I just don't remember.
Agreed. If someone's brave enough to venture into that wonderful, wonderful little storyline in an attempt to retrieve the information in question, said person would instantly be eligible for a cookie.
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Btw. if the Lorwyn 'walkers have nothing to do with the storyline and/or the plane, we have no reason to think the Lorwan block storyline took placve before the Mending ;).
Somewhere it was hinted (or theorized?) that the Great Aurora of Morningtide happened sooner because of the Mending, yet Doug's article places Jace as a witness of the Aurora...
Yeah, Brady kindly blew that hypothesis into little pieces. Still, I'm not sure it makes sense. I mean, why does Liliana want to maintain her youth if she's a planeswalker, meaning she's immortal and can assume any form she wants? Or did she make the pact after the Meandering? That would make more sense.
Edit: Yes, eid, she did. Don't know how I missed reading that in Brady's original post. That makes sense. So she ascended, the Meandering happened, she lost her powers, and so she made a pact with demons to keep her powers. That makes perfect sense, and it actually makes me enjoy the character a lot more.
Yes, Chandra would make perfect sense as the third pre-Mending planeswalker printed. It clears up the issue of being taught by Jaya, though it doesn't necessarily explain why she seems to remain so youthful at a point when Jace was part of the consortium, especially without demonic patrons.
If Liliana is . . . 150 years old someone said (I am slowly working my way through Agents of Artifice yet), and Bolas does tell Jace that Jace may not be familiar with the old power of planeswalkers, and since no one has suggested that Tezzeret was a 'walker before the Mending, I'd say Agents of Artifice occurs no more than ~100 years after the Mending (give or take two decades). This allows Liliana to be at youngest 20 when she ascends (as we haven't seen anyone much younger ascend), and gives her a couple decades of real power.
Reconsideration: "Long before the Mending," Brady states. So . . . Jace (and maybe Tezzeret) may have been born only a couple decades after the Mending (Tezzeret still being older). So Agents may occur only 50 years or so after the Mending.
Of course, now it all seems so convoluted, I don't think I added anything!
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- Alara events should (I'm including Agents of Artifice here) should be placed just like the Lorwyn events, in a "???" section probably after Lorwyn (which is itself after the Meandering). Tezzeret mentions that Bolas is a 25,000 year old dragon in AoA, so I think that places the events of that book somewhere around 5000 AR (very rough estimate). The only concrete date estimates we have (thanks to the poster with the dancing lizard avatar whose name I can't remember (and apologize for that)) are that around 120 years have passed between whenever Liliana Vess made her pact with demons and the events of AoA. That would--again, rougly--coincide with the 5000 AR date.
It's a Tauren (Minotaur), but anyway...
While I'm flattered at my theory being mentioned, I feel I must say this again:
[Liliana] doesn't say anything in Agents of Artifice about having had far greater power in the past. Not saying anything =/= not knowing anything.
Word of God says that my theory may have a few holes in it. My second theory allows the mending to occur much sooner before AoA and Alara storyline group, and it does in such a way that it actually makes sense as to why Liliana was born with a regular spark ~120 years before, and would make the deal with the demons:
... what if the reason she made the pact with the demons was because her spark had flared just before the mending, and she was just getting the hang of it when the mending occurred, and WHAM holy crap I have to eat and breathe again. When someone has had a taste of Old-School walker power, they'll be willing to do a lot to keep it, I'd expect...
The two black-aligned planeswalkers say "I'm going to get that power back." One picks the quick and easy route, the Demons, and one picks the slow route: The Conflux. The thing with the slow route is that although it takes a while, it won't come back to bite you in the ass later.
EDIT: I also wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that Demons can give you the Spark. The only one who tried anything like that was Memnarch, and A, that took a lot of power, and B, it didn't turn out so well.
Make sense? This means we could easily put the AoA/Alara story 70 years after mending, 50 years safely. If we put it closer, and it would call Liliana's line:
"It doesn't matter who they were, why I did it. The point is, I was young, I was stupid, and I did it.
...into question, about the demon deal. Although this line does support the idea that she did it because she wanted the power back.
The other option is that her spark flared after she made the deal with the demons, said "so long, suckers," to four demons, and then gets a nice bucket of cold water to the face when the mending hits. That could put AoA as soon as 20 years after the mending.
^ We won't really know before Alara book comes out. We know AoA comes before the Shards all merge because there would be no Grixis after the merge(unless the area of black mana on Alara ia still referred to as Grixis). We do nto know, though, how long time-wise the Alara book will be. It could be like the brothers war and spand years(to involve all three card sets)or it could just deal with the mending and Bolas.
In conclusion AoA becomes before the Shards of alar abegint o merge and that is all we know thus far.
Echoing Mort, because I don't have much else to say there other than that Brady implied it was someone who has a card with a Planeswalker type.
Anyway, as far as Oona, here's a quote, which I at first thought meant the Mending, but I've decided now means "Alara's Sundering":
Quote from Eventide, p. 293 »
"You are the result of something unexpected," [Oona] replied. "Around a hundred years before the next Aurora was due, I felt a great disaster far beyond the confines of our world. I know not whence it came or why, but it was going to bring the change soon, too soon."
Oh boy...no the change she is taalking about is the change brought by the Aurora. I doubt and hope it is not referring to alara because that messes the timeline up even more.
The change she is talking of is the change brought TO the Aurora, because of the catastrophe beyond the world. While Alara's Sundering into the 5 shards was catastrophic, this event did not have repercussions throughout the planes. The only event with the kind of magnitude to ripple throughout the multiverse is the Mending, so we can safely put the Lorwyn-Shadowmoor storyline within 5 years of the Mending.
Yeah Jodah doesn't age because he hid from...I believe goblins...in the Fountain of Youth. Since when did Jodah use amulets? Jodah had a mirror once but it was used and broke when Freyalise used the World Spell to end the Ice Age.
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For about a year now I've been kind of glaring at the omissions in the timeline due to the creative team's not feeling the need to give us any indication of when entire cycles happen (other than "before the Meandering" and "after the Meandering"). But I would really like to have the events of the Ravnica Cycle, Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Cycle, and the upcoming Alara storyline take place on the timeline.
Proposals:
- The Ravnica Cycle will be a "???" placed between the Mirrodin events and the Time Spiral events (as we know the decamillennial occurred sometime between that time frame). As for the actual signing of the Guildpact, how about we put that as an "???" at the beginning of the timeline somewhere with the other unknown dates between the Dragon Wars and the rise of the Thran. I think this is a good place to put it, as Niv-Mizzet is mentioned as being 15,000 years old (which, yes, I know may not be relative to Dominarian time but still) and it seems more important to try to keep the timeline all-encompassing, even if the Brady Bunch doesn't want to do that anymore.
- The Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Cycles are much easier, and should be a "???" placed between after the Meandering. The events surrounding the Great Aurora would fit in with this time. We can also make a note in the above-mentioned "general we-don't-know-when-the-hell-this-happened" dates between the Dragon Wars and the rise of the Thran as to Oona's role in manipulating the plane's stability. We don't know how far back in time Oona did this, but again I think a mention of an as-yet-undefined date is more impotant than not mentioning this happening at all.
- Alara events should (I'm including Agents of Artifice here) should be placed just like the Lorwyn events, in a "???" section probably after Lorwyn (which is itself after the Meandering). Tezzeret mentions that Bolas is a 25,000 year old dragon in AoA, so I think that places the events of that book somewhere around 5000 AR (very rough estimate). The only concrete date estimates we have (thanks to the poster with the dancing lizard avatar whose name I can't remember (and apologize for that)) are that around 120 years have passed between whenever Liliana Vess made her pact with demons and the events of AoA. That would--again, rougly--coincide with the 5000 AR date.
Thoughts?
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-Ajani is in Alara Unbroken.
-The Ajani of Alara is younger than the Ajani of Lorwyn
*Therefore, Alara happens before Lorwyn/Shadowmoor.
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Ajani and the rest of 'Walkers who were in printed in Lorwyn had nothing to do with the story of Lorrwyn. So we don't truly know which happened first.
I know this doesn't make the job any easier, but card sets aren't strictly sequential, unlike most of the narratives.
For example, the Guildpact and Dissension card sets don't really come after the Ravnica set, per se. The three sets taken together sort of represent a single period of time on the plane, diced up into three chunks. (The novels corresponding to those sets are sequential, though.)
Another example is Lorwyn/Morningtide and Shadowmoor/Eventide. Except for the handful of references to the events of the novels, you could switch the positions of the two pairs of sets without deeply affecting anything.
From the point of view of making cards, we need the ability to mix it up, to make sets sequential sometimes and irrelevant to sequentiality at other times. We will maintain an association between the sets and books but not a strict adherence.
I'm pretty sure WotC threw all that stuff out the door, and retconned it when they restarted the series with The Brothers' war.
Urza created a second artificial moon on dominaria, it could be refering to that, if it is, it would put it somewhere before the birth of planeswalker karn, since the birth of karn destroyed the moon; and the time it went up, which is described in one of the novels.
the moon was in the sky for so long, very few realized it was artificial and a lot had forgotten urza put it there, and refered to it as dominaria's second moon.
I do agree though, especially after this thread, that Lorwyn/Shadowmoor should now be placed asid ein the timeline in a ??? section and note on all of the events that we are not 100% sure where they fall that this information could be wrong, that it is just an educated guess.
On the contrary, we know it took place after the Meandering. Oona mentions a crisis on another plane of existence interfering with her ability to regulate the Auroras. And then there's the matter of Jace visiting Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, which I realize is a little too convenient to be considered cannon.
---
So here's my proposal (I think a simple visual suggestion would help a bit):
-20,000 - The Elder Dragon Wars
??? - Oona starts doing Aurora stuff here.*****
-10,000 - Niv-Mizzet is born*. VERY problematic, see below.
-5,000 - The Guildpact is signed.** VERY problematic, see below below.
??? - Ravnica Cycle could happen here.**
0 AR - Urza is born, things happen.
??? - Ravnica Cycle could happen here.**
4205 AR - Apocalypse
??? - Ravnica Cycle could happen here.**
4500 AR - Worst storyline ever occurs.
??? - Ravnica Cycle has to have already occurred prior to 4500 AR.
??? - Lorwyn stuff.***
??? - Alara stuff.****
* - Okay, this gets tricky. We know that during the Ravnica Cycle, Niv-Mizzet's age is given as 15,000. Fine, cool. We know that the Ravnica Cycle happened before the Meandering, meaning before 4500 AR. Cool and the gang. BUT, how long before the Meandering did it occur? This is tricky. We know it occurred before the Meandering, because Agyrem came into existence during the Ravnica Cycle, at we saw Agyrem during the epic Leshrac vs. Bolas fight. Okay, so there's our evidence. So we know it happened before then, but when before then? Does anybody have any idea of this? Assuming that Ravnican time operates just as Dominarian time (and this isn't that big of an assumption because we only know of one world that operates with super-fast time relative to Dominarian time--Mirrodin), that would put the signing of the Guildpact at around ... you know what, this needs its own footnote.
** - Now then. Okay. We know that the Guildpact was signed 10,000 years before the Ravnica Cycle. Great. (Incidentally, that would mean it was also signed 5,000 years after the birth of Niv-Mizzet--which is wonderful). And that's Ravnica-time, which may or may not (and probably isn't) 100% relative to Dominarian time. But, again, Mirrodin is the only plane that we know has screwy time relative to Dominaria. Others could have similar time, or very dissimilar time. Who knows? The timeline is a very rough estimate for when events occurred (other than 4205 AR and other concrete dates--and there are precious, precious few of those). But, again, the problem comes with how much time has passed between the ending of the Ravnica Cycle and the beginning of the Monday Cycle. We know one took place before the other, but do we have any indication of how much time passed between the two cycles? If there's some evidence here, this will consolidate our timeline in a biiiiiig way. Otherwise it's just going to be "??? - Ravnica Cycle stuff happened." And we could honestly but that line anywhere from the Brothers' War to the World Spell to the time the Ineffable put on his puppet show.
(Personally, if Niv-Mizzet showed up in the Alara book and just answered some of these questions, that'd be great. He's rumored to be a fairly knowledgeable chap.)
*** - This is MUCH easier. We know it took place post-4500 AR. That's all we know, BUT there's nothing suggesting it happened a billion years into the future or two days after Future Sight. This one seems easy. Let's just put it in a "???" immediately following the Meandering and call it a day.
**** - Again, pretty easy. We know it happened post-4500 AR. Cool. Let's do another "???" entry after the Meandering. Let's also put it after Lorwyn. We have no evidence that these events happened after the Great Aurora, but I think it's more important to include these events in a general area and then update them as we find more information.
***** - We don't know WHEN she started doing the Auroras, but we also don't know when Serra was born and when she created her plane. In the original timeline Squeeman created and I contributed to, we placed any and all dates for ancient events immediately after the now-known-to-be-incorrect date (thanks, Squirrel) of -25,000 AR. This includes the founding of the Sheoltun Empire, Old Vodalia, Taysir's ascendance, etc. I personally would just like to make mention of it somewhere in that area.
Big post, please let me know what you think.
Incidentally, I appreciate that there is still one forum on the thrice-damned Internets that has a dedicated Magic storyline section. Lord knows the WotC forums don't as of two weeks ago. Ugh.
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The porblem with Oona is the "crisis on anothe rplane of existence" could also be Urza using the cylex and creating the shard around Dominaria and company.
Does anyone have anything else to add about this particular issue? I can't remember where I read it, but I've been under the assumption that Oona was referring to the Meandering.
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Edit: Yes, eid, she did. Don't know how I missed reading that in Brady's original post. That makes sense. So she ascended, the Meandering happened, she lost her powers, and so she made a pact with demons to keep her powers. That makes perfect sense, and it actually makes me enjoy the character a lot more.
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R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Reconsideration: "Long before the Mending," Brady states. So . . . Jace (and maybe Tezzeret) may have been born only a couple decades after the Mending (Tezzeret still being older). So Agents may occur only 50 years or so after the Mending.
Of course, now it all seems so convoluted, I don't think I added anything!
It's a Tauren (Minotaur), but anyway...
While I'm flattered at my theory being mentioned, I feel I must say this again:
I was wrong.
Word of God says that my theory may have a few holes in it. My second theory allows the mending to occur much sooner before AoA and Alara storyline group, and it does in such a way that it actually makes sense as to why Liliana was born with a regular spark ~120 years before, and would make the deal with the demons:
Make sense? This means we could easily put the AoA/Alara story 70 years after mending, 50 years safely. If we put it closer, and it would call Liliana's line:
The other option is that her spark flared after she made the deal with the demons, said "so long, suckers," to four demons, and then gets a nice bucket of cold water to the face when the mending hits. That could put AoA as soon as 20 years after the mending.
In conclusion AoA becomes before the Shards of alar abegint o merge and that is all we know thus far.
Anyway, as far as Oona, here's a quote, which I at first thought meant the Mending, but I've decided now means "Alara's Sundering":
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
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