Recently started playing again and am unfamiliar with rules/normal play (last time I played mana burn was still around.)
Example:
Player 1:"That's the end of my attack phase. Pauses while checking cards(5-6 seconds). I can't do anything else this turn so, your turn."
Player 2:"OK". Looks at cards. "Actually during your turn I wanna use my mana to play this card (instant of some sort), then it's now my turn so I'm gonna untap..." and play continues as normal.
Basically a guy I play with will be about to untap or actually untapping his mana, then realize he could have used his leftover mana to do something before his turn and say "actually on your turn I wanted to do this..."
Is this legal/normal play?
I feel announcing my phases like saying "attack phase" and "second main phase" is plenty of warning and if he wanted to play a card so as to use his mana before his turn then he should have done so. And yes I really do say my phases as I'm doing them with pauses. He says magic is a game of turns and he should have the opportunity to do this.
By convention, the active player saying "your turn" is actually a shortcut (proposal) (C.R. 718.2a) to pass priority until the opponent has priority during the active player's end step.
When player 2 says "Actually during your turn I wanna use...", he or she intends to do something during the opponent's end step. This is a shortcut (C.R. 718.2a) to move the game to player 1's end step, where player 1 can respond accordingly.
EDIT (July 27, 2016): The shortcut rule was renumbered with Eldritch Moon.
After you say "I end my turn" your opponent can still activate anything with the same timing as an Instant Spell before the turn is officially over as the End Phase hasn't ended yet. Which after they cast their card you can respond to it on the stack or let it resolve and continue the End of Turn steps as normal until you formally end your turn again. At least that's how it works when i've played. explained in the least rules intensive way I can because it's how I understand it. Basically something something priority, pass priority, priority again,etc., turn ends, next turn begins.
In response to you declaring your turn over (when you said it was your opponent's turn) you enter the end step, where your opponent can respond and cast an instant or a card with flash before his or her untap step. Now, if your opponent untapped his or her permanents and then wants to back up to your end step, that would be an issue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Wow, so after I've done everything I can for my turn, even discarded the other player can then play before his actual turn?
Well, no, but you can't just move to discard without letting your opponent do anything. Since you mentioned you declare each phase, do you also say "Move to Discard"? If so, this is your opponent's cue to play their spell as this is treated as a shortcut to bypass the End Step entirely. If they say OK, then they have passed priority through the End Step (discarding happens during Cleanup and no one gets priority unless a trigger occurs) and then you can Discard. You should not be discarding without first allowing your opponent to cast their spells.
This falls into making sure everything is communicated properly but the examples you have provided so far indicate your opponent was well within his or her right to cast a spell before their turn started.
I literally talk throughout my turn, it helps me keep track of stuff. Like I said it's been awhile, there are lots of pauses for opponents to do stuff.
Example of how my turn goes:
"OK, my turn?"
"I'm untapping (untap lands)"
"Drawing (draw a card)"
"OK, tapping these lands (tap lands)"
"To play this card (put card onto table)"
Let opponent see card to read or read aloud if they ask what it is/does.
"End of my first main phase"
"I'm gonna attack (tap creature already out if there was one)"
"Second main phase"
"I can't do anything else this turn"
I look up at opponent and pause
"anything?"
"So that's my turn"
Sometimes I ask again and sometimes I just pause again
"ok, your turn"
really slow paced friendly games at this point, but the playing a card like he does really irks me
If you give him a clear indication that you are ending your turn before you discard, that's on this indication that he should do end step stuff. He can back you up at you discarding only if you haven't otherwise communicated your turn ending.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Well, no, but you can't just move to discard without letting your opponent do anything. Since you mentioned you declare each phase, do you also say "Move to Discard"? If so, this is your opponent's cue to play their spell as this is treated as a shortcut to bypass the End Step entirely. If they say OK, then they have passed priority through the End Step (discarding happens during Cleanup and no one gets priority unless a trigger occurs) and then you can Discard. You should not be discarding without first allowing your opponent to cast their spells.
This falls into making sure everything is communicated properly but the examples you have provided so far indicate your opponent was well within his or her right to cast a spell before their turn started.
My understanding is that even if you say "Move to Discard?" to try and catch your opponent offguard, if they say "okay...ah, and at the end of your turn I do such and such" a judge would probably let them do so. Basically the philosophy is that they don't want players to feel forced to play word-games and create "Gotcha!" moments, so in situations like the one you're describing the Non-active player gets the benefit of the doubt and control over when the turn advances through phases.
There is an article about this sort of philosophy on the MagicJudges.org site. if that link is down (as it was when I posted this) you can read a cache of it via google's cache feature
That's good to know and my answer was to alleviate the possibility of "Gotcha" moments, but I can see where it could cause them. In either case, the answer is still to make sure communication is as clear as possible to determine the current step of the game.
OK, thanks guys. I'll check that link out. I'm not trying to find a way to cause a "gotcha moment". I just felt that if all the steps were announced at a slow pace then the constant retro-activity should be stopped.
If you give him a clear indication that you are ending your turn before you discard, that's on this indication that he should do end step stuff. He can back you up at you discarding only if you haven't otherwise communicated your turn ending.
The OP mentioned the NAP will sometimes start untapping land before realizing he wanted to act at APs EoT. In a tournament setting, wouldn't this be too late? Seems like many of the answers so far are governed by AP's desire to continue on his EoT and Cleanup before giving priority to NAP.
Would a "rewind" to APs EoT after NAP started untapping still be appropriate?
If this question eould be more appropriate as a new thread let me know please. Just thought it was relevant.
OK, thanks guys. I'll check that link out. I'm not trying to find a way to cause a "gotcha moment". I just felt that if all the steps were announced at a slow pace then the constant retro-activity should be stopped.
I think that is going to be more of a social thing than a rules thing. Talk to the opponent and let them know that you'd appreciate it if they were more mindful when they intend to cast something at the end of your turn. At the same time remember that they have the final say over when your turn ends and theirs begins so they have the ability to do this sort of thing, unless they are going too far. That said, if they finish untapping their lands (and especially if they draw for their turn), then say "oh right, and I want to cast this at the end of your turn" that's probably too far, and you would be fine to inform them that they need to announce these things sooner.
As for discarding down to maximum handsize during the cleanup step, I can understand not wanting to give them that information then allowing them to rewind to your end step. I think my advice here would be to wait until they have untapped their lands (and thus have shown they are moving past your end step) to discard your card(s). It's technically out of order, but players normally don't receive priority during the cleanup step or untap step so doing those in reverse order should be fine.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Example:
Player 1:"That's the end of my attack phase. Pauses while checking cards(5-6 seconds). I can't do anything else this turn so, your turn."
Player 2:"OK". Looks at cards. "Actually during your turn I wanna use my mana to play this card (instant of some sort), then it's now my turn so I'm gonna untap..." and play continues as normal.
Basically a guy I play with will be about to untap or actually untapping his mana, then realize he could have used his leftover mana to do something before his turn and say "actually on your turn I wanted to do this..."
Is this legal/normal play?
I feel announcing my phases like saying "attack phase" and "second main phase" is plenty of warning and if he wanted to play a card so as to use his mana before his turn then he should have done so. And yes I really do say my phases as I'm doing them with pauses. He says magic is a game of turns and he should have the opportunity to do this.
By convention, the active player saying "your turn" is actually a shortcut (proposal) (C.R. 718.2a) to pass priority until the opponent has priority during the active player's end step.
When player 2 says "Actually during your turn I wanna use...", he or she intends to do something during the opponent's end step. This is a shortcut (C.R. 718.2a) to move the game to player 1's end step, where player 1 can respond accordingly.
EDIT (July 27, 2016): The shortcut rule was renumbered with Eldritch Moon.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
This falls into making sure everything is communicated properly but the examples you have provided so far indicate your opponent was well within his or her right to cast a spell before their turn started.
Example of how my turn goes:
"OK, my turn?"
"I'm untapping (untap lands)"
"Drawing (draw a card)"
"OK, tapping these lands (tap lands)"
"To play this card (put card onto table)"
Let opponent see card to read or read aloud if they ask what it is/does.
"End of my first main phase"
"I'm gonna attack (tap creature already out if there was one)"
"Second main phase"
"I can't do anything else this turn"
I look up at opponent and pause
"anything?"
"So that's my turn"
Sometimes I ask again and sometimes I just pause again
"ok, your turn"
really slow paced friendly games at this point, but the playing a card like he does really irks me
My understanding is that even if you say "Move to Discard?" to try and catch your opponent offguard, if they say "okay...ah, and at the end of your turn I do such and such" a judge would probably let them do so. Basically the philosophy is that they don't want players to feel forced to play word-games and create "Gotcha!" moments, so in situations like the one you're describing the Non-active player gets the benefit of the doubt and control over when the turn advances through phases.
There is an article about this sort of philosophy on the MagicJudges.org site. if that link is down (as it was when I posted this) you can read a cache of it via google's cache feature
The OP mentioned the NAP will sometimes start untapping land before realizing he wanted to act at APs EoT. In a tournament setting, wouldn't this be too late? Seems like many of the answers so far are governed by AP's desire to continue on his EoT and Cleanup before giving priority to NAP.
Would a "rewind" to APs EoT after NAP started untapping still be appropriate?
If this question eould be more appropriate as a new thread let me know please. Just thought it was relevant.
I think that is going to be more of a social thing than a rules thing. Talk to the opponent and let them know that you'd appreciate it if they were more mindful when they intend to cast something at the end of your turn. At the same time remember that they have the final say over when your turn ends and theirs begins so they have the ability to do this sort of thing, unless they are going too far. That said, if they finish untapping their lands (and especially if they draw for their turn), then say "oh right, and I want to cast this at the end of your turn" that's probably too far, and you would be fine to inform them that they need to announce these things sooner.
As for discarding down to maximum handsize during the cleanup step, I can understand not wanting to give them that information then allowing them to rewind to your end step. I think my advice here would be to wait until they have untapped their lands (and thus have shown they are moving past your end step) to discard your card(s). It's technically out of order, but players normally don't receive priority during the cleanup step or untap step so doing those in reverse order should be fine.