My opponent has a gideon, ally of zendikar in play and activates his -4 to give him an emblem giving all creatures he controls +1/+1. He puts the emblem above his graveyard, to the right of his deck. A couple turns go by with no combat since the board is stalled. He now has a couple 4/4 angel tokens in play as well due to sigil of the empty throne. I take a turn and draw into a Languish So on my main phase I cast languish in an attempt to destroy his 4/4 tokens. He says "ok" and looks at me with a blank stare. I wonder what's going on, and he points to the Gideon Emblem to the right of his deck.
What's the correct course of action here? Is it my fault for not noticing/remembering the emblem that was so cleverly placed almost out of the game, or would this be his fault for not placing the emblem in clear sight?
I believe the fault here would lie with you, as you forgot the emblem's existence. You could very easily have asked him to put it into a more clear location so that it is very visible.
Spam warning issued for uncertainty in the answer.
- Teia
The game continues on; the Angels are 1/1s until end of turn. If the emblem was difficult to see, then you can ask him to move it. If it appeared to be excessive to a judge, at best he would be asked to move it; this isn't likely to lead to an infraction unless it appears he's intentionally to hide the emblem.
So no chance at all to take my Languish back, in a tournament setting?
Now what if, the other player didn't own an actual Gideon Emblem, and instead he just put his Gideon card upside down, above his graveyard... would that change the ruling?
At regular REL, nope, you cast it, it stuck, no take backs. You and your opponent are equally responsible for knowing the game state. You're allowed to write down "GIDEON EMBLEM" on your lifepad, or write it on a blank piece of paper and stick it on the table in your playing area. Your opponent does not HAVE to have the physical emblem to my knowledge; most people do, but you're totally allowed to make one from scratch on the spot if you want visual representation of it. Likewise, if you cast the languish and he binned his dudes and you kept on playing before he remembered, they would still all stay dead and you'd probably both get a warning for failure to maintain game state.
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According to the comprehensive rules, even though most objects "can be arranged however their owners wish", their controllers "must be clear to all players" (C.R. 400.5). Putting an emblem on top of a player's graveyard is a less than optimal choice, unless space is at a high premium. Since your opponent owns the emblem, he or she should place it where the emblem and the graveyard can each be easily seen by all players, perhaps in a pile of its own. (Emblems are placed in the command zone, not the graveyard [C.R. 113.1].) Especially if a card-like item is used as an emblem, it can be confused with the top card in a player's graveyard.
According to the comprehensive rules, even though most objects "can be arranged however their owners wish", their controllers "must be clear to all players" (C.R. 400.5). Putting an emblem on top of a player's graveyard is a less than optimal choice, unless space is at a high premium. Since your opponent owns the emblem, he or she should place it where the emblem and the graveyard can each be easily seen by all players, perhaps in a pile of its own. (Emblems are placed in the command zone, not the graveyard.) Especially if a card-like item is used as an emblem, it can be confused with the top card in a player's graveyard.
He isn't saying it is on top of the graveyard, but rather it was located above the graveyard position, so in it's own place. Personally I don't see an issue with that. It has to go somewhere.
Players zone things differently, there's not a "correct" way to zone, the card, however needs to be clear and in a distinct zone. On top of the graveyard is not acceptable. Above the graveyard, on its own, probably is, but if the location is still lacking you should ask your opponent to rectify the situation. They are under no obligation to fix an issue of clarity they don't know exists unless the card is ill-positioned to begin with, and that would be a judge's call. Most likely, if you saw him place the emblem in a distinct zone when it was deployed to begin with and had no complaints then, then you'd be in a losing argument.
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Emblems are placed in the command zone; I was under the impression that the command zone was generally kept intentionally distinct from battlefield (else in Commander games it might be unclear whether a commander is on the battlefield or in the command zone). I expected in an out of the way place like 'near the library and the graveyard' is exactly the right place for such non-battlefield zones like the command zone and exile zone. I know that accurately describes where I generally keep my commander (in the command zone) when playing Commander.
In the situation you describe in your opening post, there is nothing wrong here, apart from the placement of the emblem (maybe). There is no other illegal in-game action (which would happen, for example, if you sent the Angel tokens to the graveyard as part of resolving Languish). If you really follow through with resolving Languish, the Angel tokens will be 1/1 and survive, and the game would continue.
And there is little wrong with placing the emblem "above", but not on top of, the graveyard.
Emblems are placed in the command zone; I was under the impression that the command zone was generally kept intentionally distinct from battlefield (else in Commander games it might be unclear whether a commander is on the battlefield or in the command zone). I expected in an out of the way place like 'near the library and the graveyard' is exactly the right place for such non-battlefield zones like the command zone and exile zone. I know that accurately describes where I generally keep my commander (in the command zone) when playing Commander.
That's intuitive to some extent, but again, "intentionally distinct" from the battlefield might mean a lot of different things to different people. Some keep their library to their right, most keep it on the left. Some people play lands on the back row, some play lands up front (which is weird and possibly morally wrong, but legal). Some have graveyard to the left or right of the library. To some people emblems might not even get to be on the playmat, they might feel like putting it with their lifepad on the table, which I can see.
The important thing to take away from this is that "clear" means different things to different people and if it's not clear to YOU, then you need to speak up. You can't let an opponent have the emblem in the same place for several turns after you watched him put it there and then tell a judge "it wasn't clear" and you want a redo. If it wasn't clear at the time he placed it, that was the time you needed to say something. Otherwise, it boils down to you just plain forgetting it existed, and in a competitive environment, looking at you blankly is exactly what I'm probably going to do too. At FNM, I will laugh with/at you and of course let you take it back. Competitive? No chance, I wanna get paid and that was 100% your screw up. If you didn't like where I put it, you shoulda told me sometime BEFORE you forgot.
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What's the correct course of action here? Is it my fault for not noticing/remembering the emblem that was so cleverly placed almost out of the game, or would this be his fault for not placing the emblem in clear sight?
Spam warning issued for uncertainty in the answer.
- Teia
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
The game continues on; the Angels are 1/1s until end of turn. If the emblem was difficult to see, then you can ask him to move it. If it appeared to be excessive to a judge, at best he would be asked to move it; this isn't likely to lead to an infraction unless it appears he's intentionally to hide the emblem.
Now what if, the other player didn't own an actual Gideon Emblem, and instead he just put his Gideon card upside down, above his graveyard... would that change the ruling?
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
He isn't saying it is on top of the graveyard, but rather it was located above the graveyard position, so in it's own place. Personally I don't see an issue with that. It has to go somewhere.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
In the situation you describe in your opening post, there is nothing wrong here, apart from the placement of the emblem (maybe). There is no other illegal in-game action (which would happen, for example, if you sent the Angel tokens to the graveyard as part of resolving Languish). If you really follow through with resolving Languish, the Angel tokens will be 1/1 and survive, and the game would continue.
And there is little wrong with placing the emblem "above", but not on top of, the graveyard.
That's intuitive to some extent, but again, "intentionally distinct" from the battlefield might mean a lot of different things to different people. Some keep their library to their right, most keep it on the left. Some people play lands on the back row, some play lands up front (which is weird and possibly morally wrong, but legal). Some have graveyard to the left or right of the library. To some people emblems might not even get to be on the playmat, they might feel like putting it with their lifepad on the table, which I can see.
The important thing to take away from this is that "clear" means different things to different people and if it's not clear to YOU, then you need to speak up. You can't let an opponent have the emblem in the same place for several turns after you watched him put it there and then tell a judge "it wasn't clear" and you want a redo. If it wasn't clear at the time he placed it, that was the time you needed to say something. Otherwise, it boils down to you just plain forgetting it existed, and in a competitive environment, looking at you blankly is exactly what I'm probably going to do too. At FNM, I will laugh with/at you and of course let you take it back. Competitive? No chance, I wanna get paid and that was 100% your screw up. If you didn't like where I put it, you shoulda told me sometime BEFORE you forgot.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave