1. If I cast recoil, can I target my yawgmoth's agenda, return it to my hand, discard an island then move the recoil from the stack to my graveyard? Or will the recoil still be exiled? If the recoil isn't exiled, is the island that I discarded exiled?
2. How about if I try this with the return target permanent to it's owner's hand mode of crosis's charm? Does the charm get cast, choices made, agenda bounced then the charm moved off the stack back into the graveyard as yawgmoth's agenda is no longer in play to see it change zone and apply a replacement effect?
3. If I cast forbid from my graveyard, may I discard 2 islands from hand to the buyback ability and move it from the stack to my hand without exiling it? I'm pretty sure this works, but I'm looking for confirmation.
4. can I cast a cyclonic rift with overload from my graveyard? I know I can't fuse cards from zones other than my hand, but the reminder text for overload on cyclonic rift doesn't mention that it has to be cast from hand.
Yes. Both the Island and Recoil will end up in your graveyard, because you perform actions on a card in the order they're listed.
Correct. The Charm will endup in your graveyard.
Yes. The cards discarded will be exiled, but Forbid will be in your hand. Unlike Flashback, which replaces leaving the stack with going to exile, Yawgmoth's Agenda only replaces going to the graveyard with exile.
Yes. Overload has no restriction on where that card has to be in order to use the alternate cost, it's just that most ways of casting a spell from your graveyard impose an alternate cost to do so, and you can only use one alternate cost. Since Yawgmoth's Agenda merely gives you permission to cast the card instead of requiring a specific alternate cost, you can choose how to cast the Rift (including overloading it).
1. You return to hand, discard, then put Recoil in your graveyard (as the last step of resolving) as three separate actions, in that order. When you return Yawgmoth's Agenda to hand, its effect ends (C.R. 604.2), so it can't prevent Recoil or the card you discard from going to your graveyard.
2. Yes. Even here, you first return to hand, then put Crosis's Charm in the graveyard (as the last step of resolving). The result will be similar to 1.
3. You can discard the cards, but they are exiled instead of going to the graveyard. With buyback, you put the "spell into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard as it resolves" (C.R. 702.26a). As you own Forbid, if you choose to pay the buyback cost, it will go to your hand instead of your graveyard (or you can exile it instead if you also control Yawgmoth's Agenda, your choice [C.R. 616.1]). If you cast Forbid without paying the buyback cost, Forbid will be exiled instead of going to your graveyard (due to Yawgmoth's Agenda). In both cases, if you own the spell countered with Forbid, that spell will be exiled instead of going to your graveyard (again due to Yawgmoth's Agenda).
4. It depends on what effect allows you to cast the card from your graveyard. For example, if it has flashback, you can't, because flashback and overload are alternative costs and you can't apply two alternative costs to the same spell. But if Yawgmoth's Agenda lets you cast the card, this is possible, since it's not replacing the mana cost.
1. Both the Island and Recoil will wind up in your graveyard. The replacement effect from Yawgmoth's Agenda that would exile cards stops applying immediately when it leaves the battlefield.
2. Yes, this is pretty much the same scenario as the first. If Agenda gets bounced as part of a spell resolving, that spell will go to the graveyard normally since putting the card into its owner's graveyard is the last step in resolving a spell.
3. Yes, this works. There are two replacement effects and you choose one to apply since you control both of them, then after one has applied the other doesn't see anything to apply to. This works differently from, say, giving Forbid flashback, since flashback exiles the card instead of putting it anywhere else (while Agenda is only looking at cards that would go to your graveyard.)
4. Yes. Overload is an alternate cost, and nothing about this scenario is forcing you to pay a different alternate cost (as would be the case with, say, flashback again or an effect that instructs you to cast it without paying its mana cost.)
Thank you! It all works how I thought it worked, but for one bit.
can you please clarify this?
"As you own Forbid, it will go to your hand instead of your graveyard (or you can exile it instead if you also control Yawgmoth's Agenda, your choice)."
If I use the buyback, do I still get to choose whether or not it goes to my hand as it resolves, or were you referring to me casting it without buyback?
Thank you! It all works how I thought it worked, but for one bit.
can you please clarify this?
"As you own Forbid, it will go to your hand instead of your graveyard (or you can exile it instead if you also control Yawgmoth's Agenda, your choice)."
If I use the buyback, do I still get to choose whether or not it goes to my hand as it resolves, or were you referring to me casting it without buyback?
I meant you do so if you choose to pay the buyback cost. See my edit.
Thank you! It all works how I thought it worked, but for one bit.
can you please clarify this?
"As you own Forbid, it will go to your hand instead of your graveyard (or you can exile it instead if you also control Yawgmoth's Agenda, your choice)."
If I use the buyback, do I still get to choose whether or not it goes to my hand as it resolves, or were you referring to me casting it without buyback?
It can only go to your hand if you paid the buyback cost. All that quote is saying is that even if you did pay the buyback cost, you can have Forbid exiled if you want for some reason (like if you have a reason to empty your hand as much as possible). Buyback and Agenda both create replacement effects that would replace Forbid going to your graveyard, so you choose which one to apply.
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Thank you everybody I can show this thread to my friends who are getting suspicious about my usage of these interactions in my casual cruel control deck.
I now understand why so many modern effects that let you cast things from zones other than the hand have "if you would cast it this way, exile it as it resolves" because what I've been doing just begins to feel unfair in the late game.
Forbid's replacement effect always apply first as it's a self-replacement effect. You cannot choose to apply Agenda to exile forbid in this situation. May be relevant if mindslavered or etc.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Forbid's replacement effect always apply first as it's a self-replacement effect. You cannot choose to apply Agenda to exile forbid in this situation. May be relevant if mindslavered or etc.
Buyback's replacement effect found in Forbid is not a self-replacement effect. Buyback consists of "two static abilities that function while the spell is on the stack" (C.R. 702.26a). Self-replacement effects are "not continuous effects" (C.R. 614.15). Examples of self-replacement effects are found in Remand, Urza's Mine, Cabal Ritual, and Snowfall. All of these cards use self-replacement effects to modify how earlier text in the card is to be interpreted. (For Cabal Ritual, the self-replacement effect appears in a separate ability because of the threshold ability word, but it's still considered a spell ability [C.R. 112.3a]).
1. If I cast recoil, can I target my yawgmoth's agenda, return it to my hand, discard an island then move the recoil from the stack to my graveyard? Or will the recoil still be exiled? If the recoil isn't exiled, is the island that I discarded exiled?
2. How about if I try this with the return target permanent to it's owner's hand mode of crosis's charm? Does the charm get cast, choices made, agenda bounced then the charm moved off the stack back into the graveyard as yawgmoth's agenda is no longer in play to see it change zone and apply a replacement effect?
3. If I cast forbid from my graveyard, may I discard 2 islands from hand to the buyback ability and move it from the stack to my hand without exiling it? I'm pretty sure this works, but I'm looking for confirmation.
4. can I cast a cyclonic rift with overload from my graveyard? I know I can't fuse cards from zones other than my hand, but the reminder text for overload on cyclonic rift doesn't mention that it has to be cast from hand.
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2. Yes. Even here, you first return to hand, then put Crosis's Charm in the graveyard (as the last step of resolving). The result will be similar to 1.
3. You can discard the cards, but they are exiled instead of going to the graveyard. With buyback, you put the "spell into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard as it resolves" (C.R. 702.26a). As you own Forbid, if you choose to pay the buyback cost, it will go to your hand instead of your graveyard (or you can exile it instead if you also control Yawgmoth's Agenda, your choice [C.R. 616.1]). If you cast Forbid without paying the buyback cost, Forbid will be exiled instead of going to your graveyard (due to Yawgmoth's Agenda). In both cases, if you own the spell countered with Forbid, that spell will be exiled instead of going to your graveyard (again due to Yawgmoth's Agenda).
4. It depends on what effect allows you to cast the card from your graveyard. For example, if it has flashback, you can't, because flashback and overload are alternative costs and you can't apply two alternative costs to the same spell. But if Yawgmoth's Agenda lets you cast the card, this is possible, since it's not replacing the mana cost.
2. Yes, this is pretty much the same scenario as the first. If Agenda gets bounced as part of a spell resolving, that spell will go to the graveyard normally since putting the card into its owner's graveyard is the last step in resolving a spell.
3. Yes, this works. There are two replacement effects and you choose one to apply since you control both of them, then after one has applied the other doesn't see anything to apply to. This works differently from, say, giving Forbid flashback, since flashback exiles the card instead of putting it anywhere else (while Agenda is only looking at cards that would go to your graveyard.)
4. Yes. Overload is an alternate cost, and nothing about this scenario is forcing you to pay a different alternate cost (as would be the case with, say, flashback again or an effect that instructs you to cast it without paying its mana cost.)
can you please clarify this?
"As you own Forbid, it will go to your hand instead of your graveyard (or you can exile it instead if you also control Yawgmoth's Agenda, your choice)."
If I use the buyback, do I still get to choose whether or not it goes to my hand as it resolves, or were you referring to me casting it without buyback?
I meant you do so if you choose to pay the buyback cost. See my edit.
Thank you everybody I can show this thread to my friends who are getting suspicious about my usage of these interactions in my casual cruel control deck.
I now understand why so many modern effects that let you cast things from zones other than the hand have "if you would cast it this way, exile it as it resolves" because what I've been doing just begins to feel unfair in the late game.
Buyback's replacement effect found in Forbid is not a self-replacement effect. Buyback consists of "two static abilities that function while the spell is on the stack" (C.R. 702.26a). Self-replacement effects are "not continuous effects" (C.R. 614.15). Examples of self-replacement effects are found in Remand, Urza's Mine, Cabal Ritual, and Snowfall. All of these cards use self-replacement effects to modify how earlier text in the card is to be interpreted. (For Cabal Ritual, the self-replacement effect appears in a separate ability because of the threshold ability word, but it's still considered a spell ability [C.R. 112.3a]).