Earlier today, I was playing out Day Two of Grand Prix New York City, in a Bant Company mirror match. Due to a combat which resulted in the death of one of my opponent's creatures, I've caused my opponent's Archangel Avacyn to transform. I'm currently at 12 life to his 9. My board consists of a Bounding Krasis, a Reflector Mage, a Duskwatch Recruiter, and a Sylvan Advocate (with enough lands to pump it up to a 4/5). His creature transforms, he declares "wrath the board", and I pick up my creatures (aside from Advocate) and dump them into my 'yard. He does the same for his two smaller creatures. He moves to combat, and swings for 6 with the transformed Avacyn, the Purifier. He has seven lands, one of which is a Lumbering Falls. Second main phase of his turn, he plays his own Sylvan Advocate and passes. I untap, draw my card, and move to my main phase, when he declares that he forgot about the 3 damage from Avacyn to me, which would put me at 3 life currently, not 6. I say it's acceptable to me to adjust the life totals at this point, but he says he wants to call a judge to make sure this is acceptable. The judge comes over and is unsure of what to do, and proceeds to confer with someone I was informed was the head judge. The judge returns and says that damage is mandatory and can not be missed. I agree, and say I would adjust my life total appropriately. The judge says he intends to rewind back to my opponent's transform trigger on his upkeep, allowing him to redo his turn. He says to "un-draw", he wants me to shuffle my hand and put a random card back on top of my library, and then rewind back to the board state as it was at his upkeep. I tell him I'd prefer to just apply the damage now, and he says he will leave it up to my opponent, who is all-too happy to redo his turn. This ruling allowed my opponent to play his turn entirely differently, and blow me out by animating his man land and dropping his own Advocate in main phase 1, applying even more pressure and forcing me to block. I asked several friends, including an L2 judge, and they all suggested it was a very strange ruling, and I should have tried speaking to the head judge in person, despite him being the one to suggest this "fix".
My question is: Is this standard procedure for such an incident, and if not, should I have tried to discuss the matter with the head judge? Thank you for your time.
It's up to the responding judge to decide if the game should be left as it is or if they should rewind the game to the point of error (you not taking 3 damage from the Avacyn trigger during the upkeep). There is nothing in policy that says you can just change the life totals, you either rewind to the point of the error or leave the game as it is. If you rewind, then it would be as stated (you put a random card back in your hand, you retap your permanents, they put the Advocate back in their hand and untap those lands, we undo combat, they put a card back at random from their hand on top of their library, then we properly resolve Avacyn's trigger). We're not going to second-guess another judge's ruling here, but note that you can always appeal a judge's ruling to the head judge.
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DCI Level 2 Judge
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Any time my opponent is allowed to "rewind time" and redo anything about their turn with better information about future game state, I get the shivers. Some of my worst experiences in magic come from a judge winding back the clock for my opponent. There's a lot of information that can matter than a judge may not be able to asses in the course of making a quick ruling. You absolutely should have asked to appeal to the head judge personally, not only to confirm the ruling but to state your case against giving your opponent a free redo with better information. You have nothing to lose for stating your case, and as evidenced, your opponent has everything to gain if you don't.
Rewinding a turn is a pretty big deal insofar as a ruling goes. No good judge I have ever known would fault you for having concerns about it.
My question is: Is this standard procedure for such an incident?
Yes, they applied one of the two legal remedies.
Option A: Leave the game state as it is, but apply a very select list of fixes, none of which include adjusting life totals.
Option B: Rewind to the point of the error.
The judge has discretion on which option is preferable, however, Option B does have to be cleared by the Head Judge.
The crux of the issue is that your opponent made a play decision based on your life total being 3 points higher than it actually was.
I have to ask. You're playing Pro REL on Day 2 so I imagine you know quite well what the transform trigger on Avacyn does and who and what it deals damage to, yeah?
When it resolved during his upkeep and he didn't tell you to take 3, why didn't you call a judge then (or inform him that you also take 3)?
Are you aware that it's an infraction to allow your opponent to break the rules, especially when it benefits you?
Now, it's also entirely possible that you both legitimately missed it, hey we're all human after all.
The point is that whether intentional or not, you illegally benefited from your life total being three points higher than it was. Offering to correct the total now doesn't remove that advantage, which is likely why your opponent insisted on calling a judge.
There wasn't any significant information gained on the rewind and had you followed the rules and told him that you were at 9, not 12 during his upkeep, then he rightly would have made the plays that he did after the fix and we'd end up with the same result.
The issue was we both forgot the 3 damage because of the terminology he used to refer to the transform effect. I'm not saying either of us was at fault, and I understand what you're saying. The problem was, he misplayed either way. He forgot about his Lumbering Falls and didn't apply pressure. Rewinding allowed him to play his turn better, regardless of life total.
The issue was we both forgot the 3 damage because of the terminology he used to refer to the transform effect. I'm not saying either of us was at fault, and I understand what you're saying. The problem was, he misplayed either way. He forgot about his Lumbering Falls and didn't apply pressure. Rewinding allowed him to play his turn better, regardless of life total.
As a counter-example to show some of the reasoning behind why tournament policy is written that way, imagine the exact same scenario as in the OP, but instead of starting the turn at 12, you start the turn at 9. Would you be okay with, a turn later, your opponent realizing that they forgot about the 3 damage to you and then just having your life total adjusted down to 0, causing you to lose on the spot? Especially if you had a flying creature that could have blocked Avacyn had you known you were actually at 6, not 9 life?
The opponent gained very little knowledge in this rewind, he may infer you dont have an answer in your hand based on the result of combat, but you haven't played any spells or revealed any hidden information, and you may or may not have a new card in hand given you put back a random card. If you have got to the point of casting a spell, then I would say the game state is no longer repairable given a rewind, but that would be the head judges' call.
You both failed to maintain the game state and both should receive a warning. The fix applied is appropriate given the tournament IPG.
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My question is: Is this standard procedure for such an incident, and if not, should I have tried to discuss the matter with the head judge? Thank you for your time.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Rewinding a turn is a pretty big deal insofar as a ruling goes. No good judge I have ever known would fault you for having concerns about it.
The issue was we both forgot the 3 damage because of the terminology he used to refer to the transform effect. I'm not saying either of us was at fault, and I understand what you're saying. The problem was, he misplayed either way. He forgot about his Lumbering Falls and didn't apply pressure. Rewinding allowed him to play his turn better, regardless of life total.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
As a counter-example to show some of the reasoning behind why tournament policy is written that way, imagine the exact same scenario as in the OP, but instead of starting the turn at 12, you start the turn at 9. Would you be okay with, a turn later, your opponent realizing that they forgot about the 3 damage to you and then just having your life total adjusted down to 0, causing you to lose on the spot? Especially if you had a flying creature that could have blocked Avacyn had you known you were actually at 6, not 9 life?
You both failed to maintain the game state and both should receive a warning. The fix applied is appropriate given the tournament IPG.